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Why most new MMOs suck

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  • LydonLydon Member UncommonPosts: 2,927

    I for one enjoy quests ever since I started reading the quest text and not just the objectives.

    image
  • While I can understand the OP’s viewpoint, I would rather do quests than grind any day. Not that theirs much difference in the end of course because sadly, most quests these days are merely grinds with an end-point.

     

    I think the reason why most MMORPG’s are really bad these days are because they are all EQ1 clones. Back in the day, when there were only 3 MMORPG’s, only EQ1 forced you to group and created the raid system where you have to have the “Holy Trinity” of Tank/Healer/DPS-CC. So many people played that game back then (due I think to the superior graphic quality) we have a generation of players who know of nothing else and think that every game should be made the same. Soloing? Thats anti-social. Everyone knows that grouping up to kill things is THE ONLY way to go. Loot? there is nothing more important than loot and your worth as a player and human being depends on you getting the best.

     

    Since then, every stinking (just about) MMORPG has been just a clone of EQ1 with a twist. It’s no wonder people get bored easy these days. It’s not that EQ1 was bad. It’s more about how many times can you play it when all you do is change the background? Wonder why most games seem the same? They didn’t copy WoW. They, as well as WoW, copied EQ1.

     

    How about creating something original? How about cloning something else if you can’t rub 2 sticks together and come up with an idea, like AC1 or UO? The worst thing that Turbine did for instance was to drop the game style of AC1 and create an EQ1 clone we all like to call AC2. LOTRO is even worse.

     

    Forced grouping, solo players being third rate citizens, quests that simulate grinding but are grinds into and of themselves, virtual worlds replaced by instances and EQ1 done over and over again with nothing more than a fresh coat of paint all contribute to the sad state of the MMORPG.

     

    I wonder how the FPS industry is doing these days? It’s been a while but maybe I should check it out. With my luck and the decayed state of gaming these days, they will all probably be Quake clones.

     

     


     
  • PantomimePantomime Member UncommonPosts: 13
    My beef with questing is it promotes solo play. There is no reason to get a group of players together to do a kill X or collect X quest. Most of the time other players just slow you down, and after you finished your quest your helping them collect 20 skeleton spines @_@. I think the xp quests give should be toned down. XP you get from actually being in combat with a mob and testing your skill against it get a boost. The new game the OP is talking about is painful to grind in. I think every old eq player remembers getting a group together to grind at Sarnak Fort in loio, or helping there friends on parts of there EPIC quest. There is no reason to form groups in mmo's any more =/.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,556

    Originally posted by Nerf09


    Early SWG didn't have any quests, and it was the best MMORPG out there.  But then SOE had to roon it.
    I played in the first couple months it came out and personally I thought it was incredibly boring.  And it did have quests.   Little computer things that you could grab tasks and missions on.

    Venge Sunsoar

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • SorrowSorrow Member Posts: 1,195

    Ennnn wrong wrong wrong wrong and wrong...

     

    There are many many reasons why MMO's now suck.

    Everything from dumbing down games for cross media console play, to trying way to hard to make another WoW.

    Devs need to realize WoW tapped out that market, and we gamers looking for a new game do NOT want to play WoW, if we did, we would be playing the original WoW not some clone.

    Devs need to go after the untapped market the gamers that don't like WoW, and lemme tell you there are alot of us out here.

    Devs also need to realize we want innovation and something different, if you are 60 day tech school graduate and all you can make is game code you copy from 10 year old games, well shoot yourself in the head now, save yourself the time, your investors their capital, and we the gamers the agony.

    We will NOT accept old cookie cutter games, get it through your head we are tired of the old hack and are quickly getting done with buying the peices of dog doo you are making simply because you put them in a pretty box.

    Real Gamers will not buy a game that has been done 100 times before, we will not buy a game that promises eventually it will be patched into a good game, we will not buy based on hype ( viral marketing ), we will not buy a game that has to be authenticated, and we will NOT buy a game dumbed down for console play.

    I know as well that ALL devs are now targeting casual gamers, MORONS. Power gamers is a huge market that is totally being ignored and we account for the leading tech edge of the industry. All those new dx10 effects you are playing with? Guess who are the only gamers with systems that can run them? Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding that's right power gamers. Problem is all the dx10 crap you are making is targeted to casual gamers.. hence, your game doesn't sell for crap you and you don't know why...

    WHY??? Because you are targeting a techically advanced game to a casual gamer who games on a $300 E machine with on board sound and video.

    Get a damn clue.

    You want a huge groundbreaking success that makes WoW look like old news, make a great game targeted to power gamers, give us back our need for each other to pull the big power guilds back together, stir in epic raiding, new technology, fully customized character creation with a huge sense of individuality, top it off with some awesome special effects and sit back on your ass and rake in the cash.

    Otherwise keep kicking out sloppy old cookie cutter crap that sucked the first 10 times it was released and keep losing your ass.

    image

  • MR-BubblesMR-Bubbles Member Posts: 649
    Originally posted by Sorrow


    Ennnn wrong wrong wrong wrong and wrong...
     
    There are many many reasons why MMO's now suck.
    Everything from dumbing down games for cross media console play, to trying way to hard to make another WoW.
    Devs need to go after the untapped market the gamers that don't like WoW, and lemme tell you there are alot of us out here.

    You obviously never looked at EvE online. True it doesant have millions of subs like WoW does but it is successfull [as in it isant losing active subs, infact its constantly gaining them for 5 years so far].

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII

    Currently Playing : EvE Online.

  • TyveilTyveil Member Posts: 201

    I agree with you 100%!  MMORPGs have been made way to quest-centric.  Leveling from 1 to [end level] doing purely quests is blah!  Even if they're well written it's more like playing a single-player game in coop mode than an MMORPG.

    Developers need to focus on the important things, specifically character development and combat, to make an MMORPG really fun and engaging from 1 to [end level] without relying on quests.  How about health and armor systems, those have been bland in every MMORPG I've ever played.  Love to see one with location specific damage, permanent wounds and scars (limb-loss, decapitations, etc) that are only healable by a true healer class.

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF Member Posts: 348

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Ok, after playing beta of a game that is coming out in a few weeks, I realized why the new MMORPGs are pretty much garbage. 
    The reason is that most new MMORPGs for some reason got the idea that people like to do quests. 

    Yes, they got this stupid idea by stupdily noting that the stupid games with the stupid quests made lots of stupid money, and, since they're all stupid, stupid, people, they stupidly thought 'Money is good! If we have money, we can buy food!', so they stupidly gave people the games people wanted and then took all their stupid money to the stupid bank.

    Sigh.

    YOU may think "Stand in one place for a long time and kill the mobs which pop in the same spots on the same predictable schedules" is just endless oodles of fun, but most players prefer to have some vague sense of WHY they're killing things and a feeling of accomplishment in working through a quest line to unfold a story or acheive a goal. Grinding==tedious, dull, boring, and purposeless -- but, if you like it, most free to play Asian MMORPGS are grindfests like you wouldn't believe.

    Sure, it's all killing mobs, but, psychologically, "I am killing these wolves to save Farmer Brown's farm, and when I kill 20, he'll tell me about the lost ring his sister had and start me on a cool quest for a nifty item" is more fun than "I am killing these wolves because, uhm, they're there, and when I kill 20, I will keep killing them until they stop giving me XP". It's also a lot more like a REAL RPG, in that in real RPGs, you don't just stand in one spot while the GM throws monsters at you -- you always have a reason, even if it's a weak one, to go somewhere and kill something.

    Your playstyle is in the minority. No first tier title is going to cater to you, so, you better get used to either playing second and third tier games or drag out your copy of "C++ For Dummies" (and about ten million dollars, minimum) and write your own game. Think I'm wrong? Point out to me a major new release whose slogan is "The grind is back!"

    But, hey, if it makes you feel better, tell yourself that you're "hardcore" and a "REAL gamer!" or whatever else floats your boat. I bow to your gaming l33tn3zz. You pwnz0rrz my n00b azz, or something.

     

  • TyveilTyveil Member Posts: 201

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Ok, after playing beta of a game that is coming out in a few weeks, I realized why the new MMORPGs are pretty much garbage. 
    The reason is that most new MMORPGs for some reason got the idea that people like to do quests. 

     

    Yes, they got this stupid idea by stupdily noting that the stupid games with the stupid quests made lots of stupid money, and, since they're all stupid, stupid, people, they stupidly thought 'Money is good! If we have money, we can buy food!', so they stupidly gave people the games people wanted and then took all their stupid money to the stupid bank.

    Sigh.

    YOU may think "Stand in one place for a long time and kill the mobs which pop in the same spots on the same predictable schedules" is just endless oodles of fun, but most players prefer to have some vague sense of WHY they're killing things and a feeling of accomplishment in working through a quest line to unfold a story or acheive a goal. Grinding==tedious, dull, boring, and purposeless -- but, if you like it, most free to play Asian MMORPGS are grindfests like you wouldn't believe.

    Sure, it's all killing mobs, but, psychologically, "I am killing these wolves to save Farmer Brown's farm, and when I kill 20, he'll tell me about the lost ring his sister had and start me on a cool quest for a nifty item" is more fun than "I am killing these wolves because, uhm, they're there, and when I kill 20, I will keep killing them until they stop giving me XP". It's also a lot more like a REAL RPG, in that in real RPGs, you don't just stand in one spot while the GM throws monsters at you -- you always have a reason, even if it's a weak one, to go somewhere and kill something.

    Your playstyle is in the minority. No first tier title is going to cater to you, so, you better get used to either playing second and third tier games or drag out your copy of "C++ For Dummies" (and about ten million dollars, minimum) and write your own game. Think I'm wrong? Point out to me a major new release whose slogan is "The grind is back!"

    But, hey, if it makes you feel better, tell yourself that you're "hardcore" and a "REAL gamer!" or whatever else floats your boat. I bow to your gaming l33tn3zz. You pwnz0rrz my n00b azz, or something.

     

    Actually the OP is right.  The reason people feel quests are needed though is because the core game mechanics and base gameplay in MMORPG's today are so bland they need something to make the game fun.  If there was an MMORPG with good game mechanics, a very in-depth character creation and development system, and fun combat, then the "grind" would no longer be a "grind".  It's only a grind with current MMORPG's because it's mindless repetition created by their bland gameplay.

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF Member Posts: 348

    Originally posted by Tyveil


     


     

    Actually the OP is right.  The reason people feel quests are needed though is because the core game mechanics and base gameplay in MMORPG's today are so bland they need something to make the game fun.  If there was an MMORPG with good game mechanics, a very in-depth character creation and development system, and fun combat, then the "grind" would no longer be a "grind".  It's only a grind with current MMORPG's because it's mindless repetition created by their bland gameplay.

    Nope, sorry. Anything done thousands of times over is a grind, and no matter fun it is to kill an orc the first time, by the 50th, it's the same old thing. Any combat system, no matter how deep, eventually falls into an optimal pattern which skilled players have memorized or even macroed. "In depth" systems invariably become "unbalanced" systems or "flavor of the week" systems. "Good game mechanics" are wholly subjective, and are limited by the demands of the marketplace and the limits of technology and budgets.

    Prove me wrong. Describe the systems you'd like -- not with vauge terms like 'interesting', but actual mechanics. Make them work given the budgets required to develop and maintain them AND the fiscal realities of today's markets.

    Consider, for example, that chess is so deep entire 500-page books are written about a single type of opening move and how to counter it or use it. After several centuries, there are still new tactics and strategies evolving in chess. But an MMORPG which had a combat system which was 'chess like' (I do not mean playing chess, I mean a system with the same depth and complexity and variability) would flop astoundingly fast. Players want fast action and quick rewards. They don't want to take ten minutes to kill one orc, they want to do it in ten seconds -- or less. But there are only so many tactics possible in a ten second fight, period. Furthermore, every complexity adds balance issues -- each abilitiy must be weighed against each other ability and every combination exhaustively tested. When you want 'deep' characters, that means a lot of different abilities -- which means effectively impossible levels of testing for balance, which means, in play, endless 'nerfs' and adjustments and the eventual blandization (is that a word?) of the system.

    I do pencil&paper RPG game design for half my living (the other half is computer programming) so I actually have some knowledge of what's required. It's easy to say "This sucks! It should be better!" It's much harder to devise a system which can work mechanically AND financially. The "hardcore leet uber gamer" is NOT a large enough market -- period. He is a freak, an outlier, an 'early adopter'. He is useful to court for free viral marketing, buzz, and hype, but when it comes to releasing a game which can justify a 10 to 50 million dollar investment, he is exactly the wrong person to please. When he says "This is lame! It sucks!", you've got a good indicator you're on the right track. Few, if any, companies will say this in public, of course...but their actions - as shown by the games they release and the changes they make post-release -- say all you need to hear.

     

     

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    I'm in the beta for a game coming out soon i wonder if OP is talking bout the same one

    The quests are horrid so far. you know, I try not to be such a scrudge or hater but this has just gotta stop. I walk up to the glowing NPC and he gives me a quest (go kill X amount of blah blah -- how original). I go complete it (in an instance by myself because no one grouped from what i could see), return to said NPC and see many other newbies doing the exact same thing at the exact same point in time

    ITs like got dammit this is retarded why do ppl defend this mess so much. Are they jsut new to MMOs?

    This is bad for roleplay (everyone is completing the same quests at sametime), bad for teaming (no one wanted to group and half the fun is seeing what all the other Classes can do), and bad for immersion.

    Its bad, bad, bad.

    I know Devs dont wanna take a risk on innovative ideas but this was awful. What stings is the game does innovate in other areas. So I'm gonna keep playing and keep hoping it gets better. unfortunately you can never gauge an MMO in first few weeks because they stretch out the progression so much.

    maybe this is what most of us keep doin'- keep hoping its different

    I must admit so far I think EVE Online has really nailed it for veterans inspite of some of the flaws. In city of heroes it wasn;t so bad because at least because the storylines were engaging and ppl teamed a lot more. As a newbie I want to TEAM to see what others can do and LEARN the game from my peers

    guild wars I really liked becauise you can skip the quests and just do the Missions which was, in prophecies, pretty much forced grouping. But you got a decent story and at least relied on your fellow man to complete the storyline. plkus in Guild Wars you could see what groups were forming in chat windows and above the group leaders head. Yeah, watered down but in a good way to direct newbs to teams

     

     

  • OldAgeJunkieOldAgeJunkie Member Posts: 207

    I would rather grind in one spot and level then to do multiple quests. But it is fun to do quests also so they should find a way to have both in the game as equal so if you like grinding mobs you receive the same amount of experience as to someone doing a quest. But yeah I'm an old schooler so grinding is better to me unless the quest offers a nice upgrade in weapons or armor.

     

      Developers need to make original games and stop cookie cutting from others and make up their own genre then to copy books and stories or movies. The more creativity the better the game and the more fun people would have.

    mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.

  • TyveilTyveil Member Posts: 201

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
    Originally posted by Tyveil


     


     

    Actually the OP is right.  The reason people feel quests are needed though is because the core game mechanics and base gameplay in MMORPG's today are so bland they need something to make the game fun.  If there was an MMORPG with good game mechanics, a very in-depth character creation and development system, and fun combat, then the "grind" would no longer be a "grind".  It's only a grind with current MMORPG's because it's mindless repetition created by their bland gameplay.

     

    Prove me wrong. Describe the systems you'd like -- not with vauge terms like 'interesting', but actual mechanics. Make them work given the budgets required to develop and maintain them AND the fiscal realities of today's markets.

     

     

    Hitpoints - at 0 you die.  Rest to heal hitpoints.  Bland.  Health systems need an overhaul.  There should at least be location damage.  Make armor much more interesting by making each piece actually matter instead of contributing to the whole.  There could be a lot more; poison, bleeding, scarring, limb removal, decapitations.. there should be more than just HP that drops to 0 and you die.  I'd like to see a true healer class that is actually needed in NON-combat situations (you can hunt without a healer fine but eventually you'll want to come back to town to find one to heal up your more serious wounds).

    Skills that you use in combat should by highly dynamic!  As you use the skills they rank up.  This in itself makes combat more interesting because you choose which skills you want to develop the most.  Do you want to spam fire spells to get your fire magic up? spam buffs? stay at ranged (this would require some evasive tactics)? or try to balance all your skills to stay a jack-of-all-trades?

    There should be balance factors to consider.  You can set your stance to offensive (+% to attack damage but minus to defense), evasive, blocking stance, or any number of different stances.  Stances can be changed in combat based on your position (you may be set to offensive, but when you see 3 more mobs join the fight you switch to a more defensive stance to avoid getting criticalled from behind).  Position in comparison to your opponent should be a measurable statistic displayed on the screen, are you overwhelming your opponent? being overwhelmed? etc.  Stance, Position, and Balance can cause a number of things affecting your hit percentages, or even cause you or your opponent to fall down.

    Thats just a few ideas.  Combat can be made interesting and rewarding.  I know several text based MMORPG's that would have my blood pumping in combat where graphical MMORPG's still haven't really done it yet (except in boss fights occasionally).  Combat has always been boring and unoriginal in MMORPG's... devs choose to keep it bland and instead focus on Quests to keep the players interests.  IMHO they're focusing on the wrong things.

  • elvenangelelvenangel Member Posts: 2,205

    I enjoy having quests, infact I love quests.  But I like quests that have some sort of purpose like finding some npc thats stranded out in a forest and he needs you to help him back to town.  So the whole way to town your kicking bandit and animal arse the whole way.  Quests that are your generic "Kill x amount of y mob" bs just sucks, it makes sense if the quest is some sort of progression for a skill like skinning training or something but if your just wanting to explore and learn the lay of the lands its like .. Eh!!    Its always sucked.  If i wanted to sit on my ass in an area and grind on a mob all day I'd go back to UO.   I loved EQ1 (and its a grind a plenty game but atleast there were fun things to do back then when you were new and just exploring) and I was never a grinder.  I may of leveled slower but I saw alot of the lands and just got the feel for the world.  I learned to hate giants, I learned to hate Gnolls and I made it my mission in my EQ1 life to destroy them both so yea I sat and grinded those particular creatures.  They had good loot and good xp but my own personal In Character dislike for those mobs made it feel more immersed.   (Plus I got really good faction with the dragons for my slaughter of the Giants on Velious so that made it even more worth it).  

     

    While I want MMOs to have quests I just wish they were more engaging, more spread out and adventurous and not in your face with a stupid ! mark over someone's head.  I'd rather be walking down a street and the Npc start "Psst Psst" and waving at me.  EQ2 did this and it made it feel a bit more alive even after you did that quest multiple times with different characters.   Hell some quests even in EQ2 you had to actually FIND ... to me it just felt more like for the couple of hours I was there I was 'living' in the world and participating in the game's life.    While it doesnt' appeal to the more 'WoW' style gamers it does appeal to enough of us that its not just purely niche gaming. 

     

    I like to game different ways at different times for different reasons.  Its perhaps why I'm wanting to go back to EQ2 and excited to try Warhammer.  While Warhammer may or may not be as engaging as I want it to be its atleast offering some different techinques to gaming fun that I'm curious to try because I do like doing new or atleast improved or rethought things.    I just hope they don't fill it with alot of 'You find this guy in the woods and he pays you 10 gold beucase you killed 200 bears quests" even though the quests are retroactive they're kinda just fluff quests.   But atleast they said you have to actually find the quests through exploring!   I miss exploring...

     

    Fluff quests make questing boring

    Forced grinding of any sort just equals boring.

    Games Designers just need to expand in the ways of progression.   Progressing just through leveling or just through skill points gets old fast.    It got so old even UO back in the day started offering to let you pay extra to have a character that's already got a max of 200 points used up but you were limted to just a master fighter, master archer, master mage (its been a while i dont remember the exact title names) type any hybrids you had to regrind yourself into a particular spec. 

    Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!

  • therain93therain93 Member UncommonPosts: 2,039

    Interesting thread -- far more sophisitcated than what I was expecting ( ' :

    Not to sound condescending or push my opinion around, but I feel like a lot of people miss the point of the mmorpg concept.  What I mean is, they focus on the number, usually the max level they can attain, rather than the experience.  Part of the problem is the end user, part is the developer dangling the carrot, part is the lack of quality content and part of the problem is that the user has "done it before." 

    Think about objectives -- people race to the end of the content in order to reach max level, then complain there is nothing to do.  It's the equivalent of playing the game of Life (boardgame with the spinner), hauling straight for retirement and then complaining there is nothing to do.  Or, racing through all 7 Harry Potter books just to finish it without savoring the various stories.  These are the achiever types and while they get their satisfaction from completing objectives, it seems like they engage in activities that won't satisfy them for very long yet they insist on complaining about it. 

    Developers don't do much to discourage this either, ultimately creating this self-defeating paradox.  They create situations where the player is absolutely incentivized to max out level (and therefore bypass content), in order to pvp or get the ultimate weapon.  We've seen some developers move away from this, implementing battlegrounds with caps or evening the playing field by giving lowbies a statistical shot at taking out the max level player or else scale encounters so mixed levels can fight along side one another, both being equally challenged (CoX does this with the recently-implemented rikti invasion) .  Others focus more on encouraging alts by default and work on enhanging that content but are still criticized because the industry as a whole has created this mindset of achievement.

    Then there's just the lack of content, thoughout the game or at certain levels (typcally the "endgame".)  WoW quests have stories -- some are epic and some are just silly and mundane -- but many people blow through them to get to the "end game" dungeons. Again, City of Heroes has some interesting storylines but use the same bleeping maps at respective level ranges yet it has no endgame.  SWG-precu did not have real quests, don't fool yourselves, and it also had no endgame.  When we think back to the grand daddy of rpgs, Dungeons and Dragons, assuming you played, it was all about the different modules.  Sometimes you developed a character over several modules/adventures or campaigns and other times you rolled a completely new one.  Regardless of starting level, the objective was never to gain levels but to complete the adventure and I think that has been lost on some players, especially the instant gratification types.

    Finally there are players whom have these fond memories of Everquest (or insert your first mmo, mine was Dark Age of Camelot) and claim how it was the best....without acknowledging that it was their first.  By default, the likelihood that something is ever going to top your "first" is very slim.  Everything was shiny and new, then.  Everything since is a clone -- yes absolutely correct.  When does rescuing the princess get old?  How many times do you re-read the same book or watch the same episode of a tv show?  It's by and large formulaic -- again, some people like that formual with little twists, others do not. 

    I guess in the end, I think some of the people complaining about mmo's probably shouldn't be playing them because the investment isn't worth their returns on satisfaction at all or they've just done it before and need to find a new challenge.  It's like complaining that basketball doesn't have enough contact or baseball is too slow when they really would enjoy ice hockey more.

    As for the OP, I didn't necessarily agree with his first post but his later ones made much more sense -- I think he's looking for less hand-holding in our online adventures, something WoW introduced and has been replicated since then.  I'm in agreement with that but have no qualms with the quest system either.

     

  • SophistSophist Member Posts: 171

     

    My point is that a game had better have enough depth to always keep you busy .
    I don't even think real life can provide that we all get bord at some point in our lives.
    And if you remove it, some players are liable to wander about aimlessly.
    Honestly I don't think I would mind that seeing as all those that wander around aimlessly would prolly be the little pukes that drive me nuts in games like WoW due to lack of imagination and would quit.

     

    If you remember these are "RPG's" in where you should want to create your own adventures. I spent many of days in UO not doing to much of anything but enjoyed it as much as a 10v100 champ spawn Raid most of the time.

     

     

    Ehh  screwed up the quote!!

    "The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF Member Posts: 348

    Originally posted by Tyveil


     


     

    Hitpoints - at 0 you die.  Rest to heal hitpoints.  Bland.  Health systems need an overhaul.  There should at least be location damage.  Make armor much more interesting by making each piece actually matter instead of contributing to the whole.  There could be a lot more; poison, bleeding, scarring, limb removal, decapitations.. there should be more than just HP that drops to 0 and you die.  I'd like to see a true healer class that is actually needed in NON-combat situations (you can hunt without a healer fine but eventually you'll want to come back to town to find one to heal up your more serious wounds).

    Skills that you use in combat should by highly dynamic!  As you use the skills they rank up.  This in itself makes combat more interesting because you choose which skills you want to develop the most.  Do you want to spam fire spells to get your fire magic up? spam buffs? stay at ranged (this would require some evasive tactics)? or try to balance all your skills to stay a jack-of-all-trades?

    There should be balance factors to consider.  You can set your stance to offensive (+% to attack damage but minus to defense), evasive, blocking stance, or any number of different stances.  Stances can be changed in combat based on your position (you may be set to offensive, but when you see 3 more mobs join the fight you switch to a more defensive stance to avoid getting criticalled from behind).  Position in comparison to your opponent should be a measurable statistic displayed on the screen, are you overwhelming your opponent? being overwhelmed? etc.  Stance, Position, and Balance can cause a number of things affecting your hit percentages, or even cause you or your opponent to fall down.

    Thats just a few ideas.  Combat can be made interesting and rewarding.  I know several text based MMORPG's that would have my blood pumping in combat where graphical MMORPG's still haven't really done it yet (except in boss fights occasionally).  Combat has always been boring and unoriginal in MMORPG's... devs choose to keep it bland and instead focus on Quests to keep the players interests.  IMHO they're focusing on the wrong things.

    Most of these ideas have been tried and rejected or simplified.

     

    Real Wounds: This forces all players to either bring a 'real healer' with them, or to constantly stop playing to go back to town to find one. Or, if everyone can learn 'real healing' via a skill system, then, it becomes an essential skill which everyone has -- so the game is just a standard hit point model with some gory wound descriptions. Remember: Playing is fun. Not playing is NOT fun. So any game system which requires players stop what they're doing and go run some random errand is not going to be commercially viable.

    Stances: Most games have them already -- Warcraft, Vanguard, and EQ2, for example. So I'm not sure what more you're looking for. Offense/defense sliders are a nice idea, but how much do they add? Player will find the 2 or 3 'optimal' settings for any situation and have a macro to shift to that setting. Easy foe? 100% offense. Tanking? 100% defense. My Paladin in VG and my SK in EQ2 do the same thing with their 'offensive' and 'defensive'  toggle buttons for special abilities.

    Use-to-increase skills: Been around since Ultima Online -- and, for that matter, they're in EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and WoW. So, again, nothing new/different here. I remember, in EQ, casting my armor spell on every passerby so I could reliably cast it in combat since my relevant spell skill was so low. Another problem with these is that you end up, again, with 'flavor of the month' -- in UO, every week, some new skill was the 'I Win!' button and everyone ground it up to max -- usually in a day or less.

    Balance, etc: Remember, the more 'stuff' you add to combat, the more work the server has to do, so the more something ELSE has to be simplified. Remember what I said about technical limitations? What do you give up to let the server calculate every interaction of every combatant for the dozens of people fighting several times that many mobs in the same zone?

    Text based MMORPGS:

    a)Appeal to older, smarter, more literate gamers.

    b)Don't have to have graphics. Writing "Throngo has fallen down!" is easy. Creating "Falling down" animations for a dozen races and hundreds of models of mobs -- not so easy.

    c)Work on a much slower pace than graphical MMORPGS.

    d)Do not require a 10-50 million dollar investment which must be recouped, so can appeal to a tiny niche market of a few thousand gamers and can be run on relatively low-end hardware.

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

     

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
     
    Most of these ideas have been tried and rejected or simplified.
     
    Use-to-increase skills: Been around since Ultima Online -- and, for that matter, they're in EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and WoW. So, again, nothing new/different here. I remember, in EQ, casting my armor spell on every passerby so I could reliably cast it in combat since my relevant spell skill was so low. Another problem with these is that you end up, again, with 'flavor of the month' -- in UO, every week, some new skill was the 'I Win!' button and everyone ground it up to max -- usually in a day or less.

     

    anyone that says 'flavor of the month' does not occur in Class based MMOs hasnt been playing them long. In City of heroes we saw FOTM builds popup left & right (rad/psi defender, ice/rad corrupter, EM/elec brutes, EM/regen stalkers, fire/rad trollers, etc, etc, etc). In WoW #1 build on all the census was Night Elf Hunters til that combo got nerfed

    Balance has nothing to do with being skill based or class based I wish people would realize that. In a Class based game its less obvious because players reroll the new combos as soon as they become available

    FOTM has never been a valid argument against Classes or Skill Based systems. That's optimization- player's figuring out the most effective builds to resolve balance issues

    I suppose you can argue in Class based games its less apparent when Developers don't allow 'respecs' thus forcing you to play a gimped Class after they give u the middle finger and nerf you into gimpness. Is that what you want? Because if you dont want to be stuck with a gimped character then please dont discuss FOTM builds. They are here because these mmorpgs have sucky balance issues

     

  • TyveilTyveil Member Posts: 201

     

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
    Most of these ideas have been tried and rejected or simplified.
     
    Real Wounds: This forces all players to either bring a 'real healer' with them, or to constantly stop playing to go back to town to find one. Or, if everyone can learn 'real healing' via a skill system, then, it becomes an essential skill which everyone has -- so the game is just a standard hit point model with some gory wound descriptions. Remember: Playing is fun. Not playing is NOT fun. So any game system which requires players stop what they're doing and go run some random errand is not going to be commercially viable.
    Stances: Most games have them already -- Warcraft, Vanguard, and EQ2, for example. So I'm not sure what more you're looking for. Offense/defense sliders are a nice idea, but how much do they add? Player will find the 2 or 3 'optimal' settings for any situation and have a macro to shift to that setting. Easy foe? 100% offense. Tanking? 100% defense. My Paladin in VG and my SK in EQ2 do the same thing with their 'offensive' and 'defensive'  toggle buttons for special abilities.
    Use-to-increase skills: Been around since Ultima Online -- and, for that matter, they're in EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and WoW. So, again, nothing new/different here. I remember, in EQ, casting my armor spell on every passerby so I could reliably cast it in combat since my relevant spell skill was so low. Another problem with these is that you end up, again, with 'flavor of the month' -- in UO, every week, some new skill was the 'I Win!' button and everyone ground it up to max -- usually in a day or less.
    Balance, etc: Remember, the more 'stuff' you add to combat, the more work the server has to do, so the more something ELSE has to be simplified. Remember what I said about technical limitations? What do you give up to let the server calculate every interaction of every combatant for the dozens of people fighting several times that many mobs in the same zone?
    Text based MMORPGS:
    a)Appeal to older, smarter, more literate gamers.
    b)Don't have to have graphics. Writing "Throngo has fallen down!" is easy. Creating "Falling down" animations for a dozen races and hundreds of models of mobs -- not so easy.
    c)Work on a much slower pace than graphical MMORPGS.
    d)Do not require a 10-50 million dollar investment which must be recouped, so can appeal to a tiny niche market of a few thousand gamers and can be run on relatively low-end hardware.

     

    Real wounds: MMORPG's need to have truly unique classes that advance in ways other than the standard hunting/questing for exp.  Real wounds creates a need for a true healer class.  If you don't want to have to run back to town, bring a healer with you (a risk for the healer) or fight at or below your level.  Fighting above your head is the best way to ensure serious wounds occur. 

    Stances: Just a way to make combat more immersive.  Not just an offensive/defensive slider (pointless) but a variety of stances or sliders that can and should be adjusted during combat to try and improve your position and balance versus each opposing combatant. 

    Use to increase skills: All prior games have been flawed with how they implemented this.  UO had hard caps and degredation ... BLAH.  EQ capped at 5 points per level?  Pointless!  Let players continue practicing skills and upgrading as far as they want, with no degredation (except maybe as a death penalty).  The skills get more difficult to level as they go up and instead of hard caps have soft caps - there has to be some chance of failure for the skill to go up.  So for example once you can zap a goblin 100% of the time with your fire shard spell you won't learn by practicing on goblins, go practice on something more resistant to fire magic.

    Balance, etc:  I fail to see how a few extra combat variables would be a load on the server.  With a good design they wouldn't be.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by Yeebo


    So, in WoW, EQ II, LoTRO, COH or any of the quest rich PvE games what's to stop you from levelling purely by grinding?  Nothing, nothing at all.  In fact for many players it's a much faster method of levellling than questing. For example, in WoW the only way that you are going to approch strait up grinding is to follow a questing guide.  95% of players don't, and so they could actually be levelling a lot faster by just finding good grind spots.  They'd be making a hell of a lot more cash per unit time as well.  Why do you think gold farmers stand around and grind?
    I can also assure you that the end game in just about any modern MMO will involve absolutely idiotic amounts of grinding if you want to do certain things.  I literally did a level and a half in LoTRO last week doing nothing but killing the same 4 mob types for pristine hides (levelling tailoring).  Felt pretty grindy to me.  And don't even get me started on faction grinds in WoW.  I don't care if the Timbermaw are going to send a hooker with a sack full of cash and a bottle of whiskey to my apartment, it's not worth getting revered. 
    So if you can grind in all of these games, why don't more players level by grinding ?  I suspect it's because they think grinding sucks animal gonads.  I know that's why I don't do it.  Putting quests in a game does not remnove the option of grinding, it just gives you a choice.
    I was willing to put up "grinding = gameplay" when EQ was the only decent MMO on the market.  But now, no way in hell I'd go back.  That's like saying we should all go back to playing Space Invaders.
    And if you like grinding, what is there to complain about anyway? 95% of the games coming out of Korea and thus probably 80% of all MMOs ever made are complete and utter hardcore grindfests.  Quests are a crutch for the weak in Korea, or something like that I guess.  Even besides those games EQ, EQOA, AO, FFXII.....surely one of those games has mindless grinding for anyone's taste. 
     

     

    Grinding on NPCS > Quests? Yeah right.  There are many reasons why this is false. 

    First, it is more exp to run all over the place and complete a bunch of quests rather than sit in a grind spot.

    Second, there are almost no decent rewards for grinding in WoW.  If you want a reward, you do some run-around chain-quest that takes a few hours to complete.  Those Rare black ring mobs drop garbage every time.  You could find better loot from an armor or weapon vendor than what you get from random drops.  it's pathetic. 

    It is about twice as fast to level with quests than with exp, assuming you are in good quest areas (which almost everyone knows). 

    Quests it not really a choice, it is just a way for blizzard to waste your time with an alternate way of grinding.  Actually, the only grind in WoW is quests.  You'd have to be very dumb to try and grind NPCs in WoW (unless you were at the levels where you have no pointless quests)

    Why do gold farmers stand around and grind.. lets see.  They don't have an infinite supply of quests I suppose.  Or maybe because they are grinding in an area where they can get something that is worth a lot.  For instance, in Winterspring I used to farm elites that drop patterns for 200g each.  Was the pattern useful at all to me? No.  Most blue items are pretty much random when it comes to grinding world NPCs, they are mostly instanced.

    People act like WoW quests are something innovative.  It would be equivalent to a game telling you that you could gain exp by catching fish.  For every 100 fish you catch, you level up.  That is what the WoW quest system is.  They definitely took the emphasis off of grouping and allow players to solo to max level every time.  So they keep you busy with quests rather than spawning world NPCs that have loot equivalent to what you find in instances.  

    Most of the content in WoW during leveling is trivial as well.  There is no challenge to the leveling system, that is why it sucks.  You can't grind in WoW and have fun because of that.  The only thing that is fun is to do an instance for the first time, but after that it is a trivial loot/exp grind.  What happened to MMORPGs where you grind difficult areas where it requires 5-6 skilled players to actually hold that camp?  It is gone.  WoW caters to newbies unfortunately and you have dumbed down instances  which anyone can beat.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by Malkosha



    I think the reason why most MMORPG’s are really bad these days are because they are all EQ1 clones. Back in the day, when there were only 3 MMORPG’s, only EQ1 forced you to group and created the raid system where you have to have the “Holy Trinity” of Tank/Healer/DPS-CC. So many people played that game back then (due I think to the superior graphic quality) we have a generation of players who know of nothing else and think that every game should be made the same. Soloing? Thats anti-social. Everyone knows that grouping up to kill things is THE ONLY way to go. Loot? there is nothing more important than loot and your worth as a player and human being depends on you getting the best.
     

    Haha.  I bet you didn't play EQ, because if you did you would realize how wrong that is. 

    How are games EQ clones?  If WoW was an EQ Clone, you wouldn't have the community which is composed primarily of newbies who couldn't survive in any challenging MMORPG.  That is why WoW is so popular, because it's not designed for skilled players.  

    The quest system in EQ was almost non-existent.  You could quest for faction, or some of the end-game quests which required killing certain raid NPCs.  But it wasn't like you had any during leveling. Even then, the leveling in EQ was good at some points.  For instance, you could go to LGUK and try to camp an FBSS, or go to KC and get some gear.

    The difference between this and the newer games is that first, the NPCs are all instanced.  Second, the NPCs are usually trivial and don't require any skill to kill.

    So what if gear is over-emphasized in EQ?  At least it made raiding more meaningful than it is in WoW.  You raid for gear that makes your character stronger.  I wish more MMORPGs had this.  Look at WoW, they let any newbie who can pick the right character and endure the BG/Arena grind get the best gear.  Does this require any skill? No.  MMORPGs are catering to newbies who have no abilities in terms of coming up with strategies to beat content. 

     

    If they took the good elements of  EQ (grinding in global zones with NPC camps), combined it with a partly instanced endgame(not 100% instanced), they might have an enjoyable and challenging MMORPG.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by Lizard_SF


     
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Ok, after playing beta of a game that is coming out in a few weeks, I realized why the new MMORPGs are pretty much garbage. 
    The reason is that most new MMORPGs for some reason got the idea that people like to do quests. 

     

    Yes, they got this stupid idea by stupdily noting that the stupid games with the stupid quests made lots of stupid money, and, since they're all stupid, stupid, people, they stupidly thought 'Money is good! If we have money, we can buy food!', so they stupidly gave people the games people wanted and then took all their stupid money to the stupid bank.

    Sigh.

    YOU may think "Stand in one place for a long time and kill the mobs which pop in the same spots on the same predictable schedules" is just endless oodles of fun, but most players prefer to have some vague sense of WHY they're killing things and a feeling of accomplishment in working through a quest line to unfold a story or acheive a goal. Grinding==tedious, dull, boring, and purposeless -- but, if you like it, most free to play Asian MMORPGS are grindfests like you wouldn't believe.

    Sure, it's all killing mobs, but, psychologically, "I am killing these wolves to save Farmer Brown's farm, and when I kill 20, he'll tell me about the lost ring his sister had and start me on a cool quest for a nifty item" is more fun than "I am killing these wolves because, uhm, they're there, and when I kill 20, I will keep killing them until they stop giving me XP". It's also a lot more like a REAL RPG, in that in real RPGs, you don't just stand in one spot while the GM throws monsters at you -- you always have a reason, even if it's a weak one, to go somewhere and kill something.

    Your playstyle is in the minority. No first tier title is going to cater to you, so, you better get used to either playing second and third tier games or drag out your copy of "C++ For Dummies" (and about ten million dollars, minimum) and write your own game. Think I'm wrong? Point out to me a major new release whose slogan is "The grind is back!"

    But, hey, if it makes you feel better, tell yourself that you're "hardcore" and a "REAL gamer!" or whatever else floats your boat. I bow to your gaming l33tn3zz. You pwnz0rrz my n00b azz, or something.

     

    You do camps for 2 reasons.  For the challenge, and for the gear you want.  You trivialize this and act like quests are somehow more enjoyable.  I guess you would rather some NPC to tell you to go to LGUK to farm an FBSS or something?  Or go to sebilis for a fungi tunic?  That would be much more different than what I am suggesting, wouldn't it. 

    I don't buy your argument that quests are more fun than exp.  You say that the farmer brown quest is more interesting than farming wolves?  How do you know?  You can farm the wolves for other reasons.  Maybe if MMORPGs had more depth people would be interested in doing a wolf-grind.  Maybe if there were bigger pro's/cons to certain NPCs people would enjoy them more.  Some NPCs might be extremely difficult to kill but might give good rewards when solod. 

    There is a total lack of thought when it comes to the leveling systems of MMORPGs.  They think they can just throw in a bunch of garbage quests that make no sense like Tabula Rasa and expect people to enjoy the monotonous grind.  As another has noted, no one wants a WoW clone, or a WoW clone that magnifies the questing system. 

     

    Either way, I don't care for grinds of any fashion and I think they are just a way for MMORPG developers to postpone players from realizing the game is shallow at the end and quitting.

    If a game ditched all grinds and was fun without it, that would be the best MMORPG ever made.  Too bad the people working at these companies only know how to copy previous games and change 1-2 minor features and expect their MMORPG to be some great success.

  • BlackWatchBlackWatch Member UncommonPosts: 972

    Most 'MMO's' suck... because:

    As I go from game to game, I make note of what I liked and didn't like from each one. 

    When I move from game A and start playing game B... I expect the things I liked about game A to be there, and I hope that the things I didn't like about game A to be gone in game B.

    This isn't the case.

    While the grass may be greener... it's often times just as hard to mow, and sometimes... it's more difficult.

    ...

    I don't see gaming companies learning from one another.  That's disappointing.

    I see them copying one another, yet not making the correct adjustments to give 'new game' the competitive edge over 'old game'.

    ...

    How many fantasy games do we need?  Really?

    Read the list on the left for 'released games' and then look at 'games in development'... do we require another orce, trolls, and elf's game?  I know I don't.

    I know, I know... with every 'new' title that the genre produces, there is always a chance that a gem could surface.  Perhaps the 'WoW Killer' still lurks out there in the mind of some untapped source?   Until that creative genius shows up, do we have to see all of these craptastic titles? 

    Why not find a way to take all of the 'great' features of the dozens of 'good' titles and turn that into one incredible game?

    I mean, apparently someone found a way to take all of the bad features of the failed games and form... the SWG-NGE!? 

     

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  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by therain93


    Interesting thread -- far more sophisitcated than what I was expecting ( ' :
    Not to sound condescending or push my opinion around, but I feel like a lot of people miss the point of the mmorpg concept.  What I mean is, they focus on the number, usually the max level they can attain, rather than the experience.  Part of the problem is the end user, part is the developer dangling the carrot, part is the lack of quality content and part of the problem is that the user has "done it before." 
    Think about objectives -- people race to the end of the content in order to reach max level, then complain there is nothing to do.  It's the equivalent of playing the game of Life (boardgame with the spinner), hauling straight for retirement and then complaining there is nothing to do.  Or, racing through all 7 Harry Potter books just to finish it without savoring the various stories.  These are the achiever types and while they get their satisfaction from completing objectives, it seems like they engage in activities that won't satisfy them for very long yet they insist on complaining about it. 
    Developers don't do much to discourage this either, ultimately creating this self-defeating paradox.  They create situations where the player is absolutely incentivized to max out level (and therefore bypass content), in order to pvp or get the ultimate weapon.  We've seen some developers move away from this, implementing battlegrounds with caps or evening the playing field by giving lowbies a statistical shot at taking out the max level player or else scale encounters so mixed levels can fight along side one another, both being equally challenged (CoX does this with the recently-implemented rikti invasion) .  Others focus more on encouraging alts by default and work on enhanging that content but are still criticized because the industry as a whole has created this mindset of achievement.
    Then there's just the lack of content, thoughout the game or at certain levels (typcally the "endgame".)  WoW quests have stories -- some are epic and some are just silly and mundane -- but many people blow through them to get to the "end game" dungeons. Again, City of Heroes has some interesting storylines but use the same bleeping maps at respective level ranges yet it has no endgame.  SWG-precu did not have real quests, don't fool yourselves, and it also had no endgame.  When we think back to the grand daddy of rpgs, Dungeons and Dragons, assuming you played, it was all about the different modules.  Sometimes you developed a character over several modules/adventures or campaigns and other times you rolled a completely new one.  Regardless of starting level, the objective was never to gain levels but to complete the adventure and I think that has been lost on some players, especially the instant gratification types.
    Finally there are players whom have these fond memories of Everquest (or insert your first mmo, mine was Dark Age of Camelot) and claim how it was the best....without acknowledging that it was their first.  By default, the likelihood that something is ever going to top your "first" is very slim.  Everything was shiny and new, then.  Everything since is a clone -- yes absolutely correct.  When does rescuing the princess get old?  How many times do you re-read the same book or watch the same episode of a tv show?  It's by and large formulaic -- again, some people like that formual with little twists, others do not. 
    I guess in the end, I think some of the people complaining about mmo's probably shouldn't be playing them because the investment isn't worth their returns on satisfaction at all or they've just done it before and need to find a new challenge.  It's like complaining that basketball doesn't have enough contact or baseball is too slow when they really would enjoy ice hockey more.
    As for the OP, I didn't necessarily agree with his first post but his later ones made much more sense -- I think he's looking for less hand-holding in our online adventures, something WoW introduced and has been replicated since then.  I'm in agreement with that but have no qualms with the quest system either.
     

    The quest system IS hand holding.  I wouldn't be surprised if the MMORPGs about to be released have some sort of map feature that tells you where to find the NPC. What does that mean?  It means you don't pay attention to your screen, you just look at a map until you see your cursor or character identifier on top of the right location.  You wouldn't even realize you were in an MMORPG if you did quests like that.

    There shouldn't be a real endgame imo.  There should always be stuff to do that is fun at the end.  Whether that is kill other players or do new raid content, it should be there.   I'm not saying I want some boring grind like the WoW PVP System which failed miserably and replicates a PvE system if anything.  Maybe a game that is more immersive where your guild can affect the whole server through their actions.  A real PVP system would be nice in newer MMORPGs. 

    Also, how do you compare speed-reading harry potter to MMORPGS?  MMORPGs should begin at 60, not end at 60.  Whether they remove the grind completely or leave it in, that is the way things should be.  When you design a friendly hand holding MMORPG then you get a something like WoW where you just level up doing trivial quests.  When you are max level, you either raid pvp or reroll, and these systems aren't really designed good imo.

    I wonder how an MMO would turnout if they got rid of levels and just focused on putting lots of challenging & interesting content in rather than these trivial & boring quests designed for 10 year olds who don't know how to think.  I would play it.

  • DarknesFallsDarknesFalls Member Posts: 37

    The problem today is that very few genera's of games can attract enough of a user base to be worth making, fantasy, Asian/Martial Arts and Sci-Fi. There are already enough fantasy and martial arts MMO's out there but I'm still waiting for a good, free Sci-Fi MMO.

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