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Why most new MMOs suck

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  • TatumTatum Member Posts: 1,153

    Ginkeq, Ive been saying this for a while and I still believe it:  character progression is the single biggest feature that MMOs need to overcome.  Yea, I know, plenty of people LOVE character progression.  Thats fine, really.  There will, more than likely, ALWAYS be MMOs out there that focus on this.  So, thats not really a concern. 

    The problem is, as long as your primary focus is on character progression the game will always be a grind (for many of us).  It doesnt matter whether your camping retarded mobs or doing some pointless, static quest, youre always just grinding through it to hear that *DING*.  Its a cheap excuse for content, seriously.  Theres no real progression, since everyone eventually ends up at the same level cap with the same gear and skills as everyone else of their class.  Its NO DIFFERENT than the earliest video games where you went through infinite levels of the exact same shit that just got faster every time, onjly it never really gets faster in MMOs, the numbers just get bigger.

    I know that those of us who want to see zero character progression or flat character progression are in the minority.  But, that doesnt mean it wont happen at some point and it doesnt mean that it wont open up tons of new possibilities for MMOs.  Imagine for a second that you log into an MMO and your first thought is "I can do what ever I want".  Youre not thinking "I need to go knock out this level" or "I need to go grind out this faction/trait/skill".  You just log on and do what ever you feel like, group up with who ever you run into, go where ever you want...

  • Imohtep316Imohtep316 Member Posts: 22

    i liked how old swg was pretty much perfect...i was swordsman and did fun quests like the ones where i find shit and kill captains and such, but then i got bored and would go craft some furniture or barter on the bazaar, or i could go be a mayor.....make multiple cities, build a guild, or just go enjoy the cantina.....oh how i miss it

  • daywalker27daywalker27 Member UncommonPosts: 148

    To bad WAR was created first you *****ing ****** of ******* ******.

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

     

    Originally posted by daywalker27


    To bad WAR was created first you *****ing ****** of ******* ******.

     

    Does it matter what was created first?  The game will be a clone regardless.  You will have a boring leveling system, a fake pvp system, and non existent pve.  I can hardly see how that will be an improvement to WoW.

    Rather, WAR is more of a rehash of all the same old concepts that make MMORPGs suck. 

     

    Sure, WoW has a lot of people using these concepts, but it is only the people who can put up with the boredom of grinding.  And if the game really is boring, why play it?  Most people in my WoW guild just had chinese kids powerlevel them because they didn't want to put up with the boring grinds (plus it probably wasnt worth their time). 

    When MMORPGs have such a boring leveling system, why even include them?  Maybe if WAR got rid of leveling I would give it a chance, but as I said, it's a rehash.

     

    The only MMO i am interested in is one without levels, almost all gear based.  Get rid of stupid concepts like pvping all day in boring battlegrounds for gear.  Put in a real pvp system where players fight over control of zones (like in everquest).  That is the only REAL pvp system.  Instanced stuff is just for softcore newbies who enjoy grinding the same players in pvp encounters.

  • ZindaihasZindaihas Member UncommonPosts: 3,662

    Originally posted by Tatum


    Ginkeq, Ive been saying this for a while and I still believe it:  character progression is the single biggest feature that MMOs need to overcome.  Yea, I know, plenty of people LOVE character progression.  Thats fine, really.  There will, more than likely, ALWAYS be MMOs out there that focus on this.  So, thats not really a concern. 
    The problem is, as long as your primary focus is on character progression the game will always be a grind (for many of us).  It doesnt matter whether your camping retarded mobs or doing some pointless, static quest, youre always just grinding through it to hear that *DING*.  Its a cheap excuse for content, seriously.  Theres no real progression, since everyone eventually ends up at the same level cap with the same gear and skills as everyone else of their class.  Its NO DIFFERENT than the earliest video games where you went through infinite levels of the exact same shit that just got faster every time, onjly it never really gets faster in MMOs, the numbers just get bigger.
    I know that those of us who want to see zero character progression or flat character progression are in the minority.  But, that doesnt mean it wont happen at some point and it doesnt mean that it wont open up tons of new possibilities for MMOs.  Imagine for a second that you log into an MMO and your first thought is "I can do what ever I want".  Youre not thinking "I need to go knock out this level" or "I need to go grind out this faction/trait/skill".  You just log on and do what ever you feel like, group up with who ever you run into, go where ever you want...
    You make an interesting post and I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I would point this out.  If you log onto an MMO and your first thought is, "I can do whatever I what", your second thought might very well be, "So what am I going to do?"  This has happened endless times in games I have played.  I log on, get into a group and then someone says, "So what do you want to do."  And no one can come up with a satisfactory answer and before you know it, someone says they are leaving to join another group and another person decides to go eat and pretty soon you're alone.  So then you think well maybe I'll solo for a bit, but you can't really decide what the best thing is to do solo.

    My point is that a game had better have enough depth to always keep you busy, especially if you remove character advancement.  Because as boring as grinding can be, it's still something to do.  And if you remove it, some players are liable to wander about aimlessly.

  • HighlawHighlaw Member Posts: 1

     WAR =/= any other mmorpg

     

     I hate when people assume something before doing some research.

    Ok, I'm wasting my time talking with people like you so ill only tell you how you can lvl up in WAR:



    - Grinding, no one stops you, and it's actually less boring because you take some time to kill each mob. I'd rather kill 10 mobs for the same exp of 30.

    - Questing. And there are lots of different quests:

      ~You have the "go kill x mobs" quests BUT like someone sayd before if are just killing something for fun and happen to find a npc that wants you to kill the mobs you were just killing, he'll give you the reward. Not like wow that you already killed 15,2 boars and then you have to kill 10 more.

      ~There are Exploration(!) (or Xmas i don't remember) quests. You try to climb a mountain or go to a "secret" place or just go off the road... if you explore you'll find something that will reward you It's magic!!

      ~One of the coolest quest type for me  "Public quests" . It's a zone in the map where a huge quest is permanently going on. There are some stages for it where the last one is defiting a boss or a horde of monsters. A funny and real example that they gave was that the Orcs want to blow up with a gate to fight Dwarfs but they simply can't, at that moment they find a Giant beeing bothered by a bunch of mobs so you go and kill them, after that you ask the giant to grab the huge bomb that is on its side and go blow up the gate.. but his kinda dum so he didn't understand the orcs got an idea and got some beer for the giant. He got so drunk that he grabed the bomb and blew himslef and the gate at the same time. The dwarfs get mad and charge at you, you kill them. SO thats a quest at the 1st area for the orcs, It's a good way to have people in your side because they all want the reward which is shared by how you participated in the quests.

      ~There are more types of quests but ill stop here.

    - PVP. Warhammer online has a huge pvp zone on each zone (that is connected to an enemy pvp zone) where there are quests related to kill PEOPLE not only that but you can simply grind PEOPLE if you kill someone you will get exp based on how many time that person is alive AND you get items doing that. so you have quests related to PVP there. You can go from lvl 0  to 40 by just killing people. And there are lots of ways to PVP like instaced areas (just like WoW) and more and more.

    OH and you can invade the capital city of your rival and sac it, burn it down, kill ppl. <_< i guess thats fun

    OK thats bout it sorry for my poor english and i skipped pages 4-6 so sorry if  I repeated someone.

  • tombear81tombear81 Member Posts: 810

    I completely agree that quests like go kill X and Y, returning and then get another X and Y have no place in any new MMO. There poorly designed and a complete travesty. Any other genre would have spurned such lacklustre content a long time ago. LOTRO had the nice interesting main quest but that was offet by endless go kill me some boars quests and boring pointless drivel. Yawn ... see ya LOTRO.

    Seriously  game developers if I want to go out and kill wildlife for a living I will quite frankly do it myself, taking a nice sharp nice and hopefully coming back with pelts. I might consult some NPC maybe before starting out or use an NPC's occupation as a templete Alternatively I might go out and pick herbs and make love to squirrels or some such randomly decided action. I do not however need floating glowing icons telling me what to do. Sadly many players lack the intelligence to follow open ended goals, they dont even read quest texts anyhow evidenced by utter confusion when they encounter a quest which isnt kill X of Y. Am I being harsh... yup .. but its da truth guvoner !

     

    As for group (ala elite quests WoW style), questing is again also usually lacklustre and simply included to increse sink time even further as you stand around like tart on a street corner hoping some members will come along. Of course one of the little monsters then gets told he has to walk to dog OR eat his greens so off he goes and your left with another whole to plug.

    So dev's...

    Pick up groups = bad. Stupid point quests = stupid pointless quests. Groups structure around common activity and playstyles good with a point to a quest. Not once have I ever seen an MMO where in game you can leave messages and arrange groups offline using a web interface in an integrated grouping/time system. Ok sure we have guiilds but a built in feature like this for arranging specific activity in a time slot would be great. Sort of like a local in game board for everything.

     

    No I'm afraid group content and player interaction and open ended play,  isn't being done well in most MMO's. It doesnt seem to be getting better either.

  • blaamblaam Member Posts: 111

    what is a mmorpg in the first place ? i think that the questions everyone should ask himself before anything.. so we can start  to stop talking about the right type of game ( mmo define  a  large genre, mmorpg is a specific type of mmo) ..

     

    A  MMORPG is a virtual world  with a background. One should be able to log in hes favorite virtual world and jsut "live" there.. the choice of progression should be th eplayers decision ( aka quests or hunting or crafting or anything that would  in a realistic way make a avatar progress).

    In no way people should be forced to follow a patern ( WoW quest progression vs hunting is a perfect exemple here).

    Games should have optionnal quests but they should never be better than others ways ( and vice versa)

     

    Ofc that doenst includ special event/quest for special stuffs ( either skills or items) i personnally think the quest lines in WOW for legendary stuff back then was one of the bests, i also like the epic quest idea of DAOC back in the days.

     

    I miss the days where i would log in my favorite mmorpg ( EQ AO AC DAOC) just to chill and chat.. or to join a party and go xp outdoors or in a mission.. even the borings stuff ( trying to spawn placeholders) where fun back then ..

     

     

     

     

  • TatumTatum Member Posts: 1,153

    Originally posted by Zindaihas


     
    Originally posted by Tatum


    Ginkeq, Ive been saying this for a while and I still believe it:  character progression is the single biggest feature that MMOs need to overcome.  Yea, I know, plenty of people LOVE character progression.  Thats fine, really.  There will, more than likely, ALWAYS be MMOs out there that focus on this.  So, thats not really a concern. 
    The problem is, as long as your primary focus is on character progression the game will always be a grind (for many of us).  It doesnt matter whether your camping retarded mobs or doing some pointless, static quest, youre always just grinding through it to hear that *DING*.  Its a cheap excuse for content, seriously.  Theres no real progression, since everyone eventually ends up at the same level cap with the same gear and skills as everyone else of their class.  Its NO DIFFERENT than the earliest video games where you went through infinite levels of the exact same shit that just got faster every time, onjly it never really gets faster in MMOs, the numbers just get bigger.
    I know that those of us who want to see zero character progression or flat character progression are in the minority.  But, that doesnt mean it wont happen at some point and it doesnt mean that it wont open up tons of new possibilities for MMOs.  Imagine for a second that you log into an MMO and your first thought is "I can do what ever I want".  Youre not thinking "I need to go knock out this level" or "I need to go grind out this faction/trait/skill".  You just log on and do what ever you feel like, group up with who ever you run into, go where ever you want...
    You make an interesting post and I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I would point this out.  If you log onto an MMO and your first thought is, "I can do whatever I what", your second thought might very well be, "So what am I going to do?"  This has happened endless times in games I have played.  I log on, get into a group and then someone says, "So what do you want to do."  And no one can come up with a satisfactory answer and before you know it, someone says they are leaving to join another group and another person decides to go eat and pretty soon you're alone.  So then you think well maybe I'll solo for a bit, but you can't really decide what the best thing is to do solo.

     

    My point is that a game had better have enough depth to always keep you busy, especially if you remove character advancement.  Because as boring as grinding can be, it's still something to do.  And if you remove it, some players are liable to wander about aimlessly.

    True, those would probably be the challenges for anyone trying to develop this type of game.  You have to have enough depth and enough games to keep players busy.  Really, it would still turn into a sandbox vs. linear type of arguement., since this system would NOT work in the ultra linear type of mmorpg that everyone is churning out.

    But, if you have more of a sandboxy type of world with player driven content and a player run economy, the character progression part isnt even neccesary.  You could still go out an hunt mobs for the drops  You could still have some questing in there, preferably some type of player generated quests.  You could still PvP and you wouldnt have to grind through 50, 60, 70, levels to get there.

    So, maybe the only real requirement would be comming up with some type of optional tutorial that introduces players to the world and everything they can do. 

  • SalvatorisSalvatoris Member Posts: 1,360

    So... the OP thinks too much content is the problem... and that more grinding is the answer???  that is absolutely nuts.

    I think the biggest problem with MMOs has to do with the subscription pricing model.  In order to make more money, they have to make our goals take a long time to achieve.  They limit your bag and vault space, just so you can get more in an expansion.  They make travel time a huge hassle, just so you don't run through all the content too fast.  They have to make all the armor and gear bland, ugly and useless... otherwise we wont pay for a couple more months to get the uber gear.  It's lazy, it's greedy... and it's marketing gurus ruining all our fun.

     

    Can you image the developers of a non-subscription game intentionally withholding content... hell no.  If the guys making battlefield or KOTOR think a feature will make the game more fun, more accessible, more intuitive, faster to get to the action.. etc... they make sure that features goes in.  So what do we end up with, a game that is rewarding, but not as fun as it could be.

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    I think CatucmanX hit it on the head whereas 'linear progression' works great for the type of PVPer that wants to be able to compete with his fellow man yet they still have the freedom to grind if they wish. Guild Wars does this with PVP toons.

    Battlefield 2142 might be something the OP might want to look into. My Clan is so spoiled by BF2142- they dont want to moveon to other games. BF2142 does such an excellent job in this regard. Veterans are merely more diverse (they can switch to different roles upon death)

    if you really dont care for PVE then there is no reason to ignore PVP focused titles

    PErsonally I like both PVE/PVP but I tend to prefer fast progression. I'd be okay with doing away with treadmills completely though and then from that point its all sandbox and all we do is try to earn money to buy armor/weapons/cities (risk vs reward). Starport (2D) MMO does this and its a lot of fun

  • DyraeleDyraele Member UncommonPosts: 200

    Originally posted by Ginkeq

    ...
    I think quests only exist in MMOs for stupid players who can't figure out where to grind.
    ...

    That statement sums the whole problem up for me, except I am in the opposite boat from you. I cannot stand the grind of games. I need more story and reason. Grinding is not a way to play IMO.

    AKA - Bruxail

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by Salvatoris


    So... the OP thinks too much content is the problem... and that more grinding is the answer???  that is absolutely nuts.
    I think the biggest problem with MMOs has to do with the subscription pricing model.  In order to make more money, they have to make our goals take a long time to achieve.  They limit your bag and vault space, just so you can get more in an expansion.  They make travel time a huge hassle, just so you don't run through all the content too fast.  They have to make all the armor and gear bland, ugly and useless... otherwise we wont pay for a couple more months to get the uber gear.  It's lazy, it's greedy... and it's marketing gurus ruining all our fun.
     
    Can you image the developers of a non-subscription game intentionally withholding content... hell no.  If the guys making battlefield or KOTOR think a feature will make the game more fun, more accessible, more intuitive, faster to get to the action.. etc... they make sure that features goes in.  So what do we end up with, a game that is rewarding, but not as fun as it could be.

    Too much content IS the problem.  When you overwhelm people with quests, it gets to the point where they dont read the quests even and they just look at what is needed.  That is why the quest givers say "Kill x wild boars" at the end, because the company knows no one will read their quests or even try to interpret the meaning. 

    If there were less quests, people would pay more attention to the quests they have.  Also, the quests would be meaningful as opposed to worthless run-around quests just for exp. 

    Quests just overwhelm players with things to do when that is really just intended to waste peoples time.

    I dont like grinding npcs either, but id prefer it to quests.  I'd prefer no grinding to grinding, as it is just a time waste and contributes nothing to the MMORPG. 

    The good players go right to the end as fast as possible because they know that is where the content of MMOs is (or should be anyway).

    Remember that the point of questing and grinding is just to waste time because the devs cant put in enough interesting difficult content.  Rather, they give you trivial run-around quests that take almost no skill to implement.  I'd rather have an extra 3-4 instances when WoW was released instead of the 1-60 boring grind.

     

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,256

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


     
    Originally posted by Salvatoris


    So... the OP thinks too much content is the problem... and that more grinding is the answer???  that is absolutely nuts.
    I think the biggest problem with MMOs has to do with the subscription pricing model.  In order to make more money, they have to make our goals take a long time to achieve.  They limit your bag and vault space, just so you can get more in an expansion.  They make travel time a huge hassle, just so you don't run through all the content too fast.  They have to make all the armor and gear bland, ugly and useless... otherwise we wont pay for a couple more months to get the uber gear.  It's lazy, it's greedy... and it's marketing gurus ruining all our fun.
     
    Can you image the developers of a non-subscription game intentionally withholding content... hell no.  If the guys making battlefield or KOTOR think a feature will make the game more fun, more accessible, more intuitive, faster to get to the action.. etc... they make sure that features goes in.  So what do we end up with, a game that is rewarding, but not as fun as it could be.

     

    Too much content IS the problem.  When you overwhelm people with quests, it gets to the point where they dont read the quests even and they just look at what is needed.  That is why the quest givers say "Kill x wild boars" at the end, because the company knows no one will read their quests or even try to interpret the meaning. 

    If there were less quests, people would pay more attention to the quests they have.  Also, the quests would be meaningful as opposed to worthless run-around quests just for exp. 

    Quests just overwhelm players with things to do when that is really just intended to waste peoples time.

    I dont like grinding npcs either, but id prefer it to quests.  I'd prefer no grinding to grinding, as it is just a time waste and contributes nothing to the MMORPG. 

    The good players go right to the end as fast as possible because they know that is where the content of MMOs is (or should be anyway).

    Remember that the point of questing and grinding is just to waste time because the devs cant put in enough interesting difficult content.  Rather, they give you trivial run-around quests that take almost no skill to implement.  I'd rather have an extra 3-4 instances when WoW was released instead of the 1-60 boring grind.

     

    Everyone has their own opinions on what makes MMO's good and what makes them boring.  Personally I think if you had fewer quests, but to the same effect, then it would still somewhat make things boring.  There are only a few different quest types. Take this, kill that, go here, go there.  Ultimately it doesn't matter how many or how few you have, it's all the same. 

    The reason I am starting to dislike MMO's is for one, they never have enough variety.  They claim variety. That is one reason why I loved SWG.  You could change whatever you wanted to do in mid-game, without needing another character.  They let you drive vehicles that could carry your team mates, and make houses. Build shops, craft, build your own ship and have space battles.  I mean you could go all day without having to kill something, or you could kill whatever you want, but never touch a blaster or a sword. You could fly all day and get loot and money and make more ships.  I mean there was no END to the possibilities. 

    I mean I enjoy the idea of Vanguards crafting system, but it's just overly tough to get into it.  You're still stuck in the same class, I mean it's okay and all but ultimately it's not what I'm looking for.  I mean I like the idea of variety, with a single character. No more creating new characters if you don't want to, or having to worry about transferring loot. Just having one character with the ability to do whatever you wanted. Mixing classes as you saw fit.  Indeed it would be slightly tough to balance, but not impossible.

    I think variety is what makes an MMO special.  You can replay the classes a million times, rangers, rogues, tanks. They are all nicely packaged for you. Never a great variation of classes from one game to the next. They can name them differently but they really aren't fooling anyone.

     



  • DefiledFDefiledF Member Posts: 102
    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    Ok, after playing beta of a game that is coming out in a few weeks, I realized why the new MMORPGs are pretty much garbage. 
    The reason is that most new MMORPGs for some reason got the idea that people like to do quests.  So these newer MMOs all have like 5000 quests in every area where there is no point to them other than to say the game has a lot of quests. 



    Leveling up by doing quests has to be the stupidest thing ever invented in MMOs.  It is like you are in an area only to do a quest and not for the NPCs that live in that area.  For example, in WoW you would travel to a certain zone to grind 20-30 because of an abundance of quests. 



    I think quests only exist in MMOs for stupid players who can't figure out where to grind.  At least games like everquest has a bunch of leveling spots and they were camped either due to the gear, exp, or cash reward. 



    So to MMO developers in the future, no, i don't like doing pointless quests for no reason.  They ruin the game if anything.
    Also, when the quest system is so stupid that you can only start a quest at one location, why would you put that in a game other than to piss people off?  For example, if there is a quest to rescue people, and you didn't get that quest, but you are in the same zone as them and can rescue them, why shouldnt you be able to do hat quest right there? 
    And you need a quest just to do that quest?  It's stupid.  If a quest says you kill 10 spiders, and you've killed 10, why not allow it to be used retroactively
     
    Anyway,  all im advocating is that newer MMos don't include so many idiotic quests that have no point other than exp.  It's a reason im not going to play any of the MMOS released this year
     
    Oh btw, the most annoying thing is that in the game i'm referring to, the exp is so lousy that it isnt possible to level without doing these  quests.  So, you are forced to do pointless quests for exp, what a dumb concept

    Because killing a million monsters who keep respawning out from nowhere is a much better gameplay concept!

  • Xix13Xix13 Member Posts: 259

     

    Originally posted by Tatum


     
    Originally posted by Zindaihas


     
    Originally posted by Tatum


    Ginkeq, Ive been saying this for a while and I still believe it:  character progression is the single biggest feature that MMOs need to overcome.  Yea, I know, plenty of people LOVE character progression.  Thats fine, really.  There will, more than likely, ALWAYS be MMOs out there that focus on this.  So, thats not really a concern. 
    The problem is, as long as your primary focus is on character progression the game will always be a grind (for many of us).  It doesnt matter whether your camping retarded mobs or doing some pointless, static quest, youre always just grinding through it to hear that *DING*.  Its a cheap excuse for content, seriously.  Theres no real progression, since everyone eventually ends up at the same level cap with the same gear and skills as everyone else of their class.  Its NO DIFFERENT than the earliest video games where you went through infinite levels of the exact same shit that just got faster every time, onjly it never really gets faster in MMOs, the numbers just get bigger.
    I know that those of us who want to see zero character progression or flat character progression are in the minority.  But, that doesnt mean it wont happen at some point and it doesnt mean that it wont open up tons of new possibilities for MMOs.  Imagine for a second that you log into an MMO and your first thought is "I can do what ever I want".  Youre not thinking "I need to go knock out this level" or "I need to go grind out this faction/trait/skill".  You just log on and do what ever you feel like, group up with who ever you run into, go where ever you want...
    You make an interesting post and I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I would point this out.  If you log onto an MMO and your first thought is, "I can do whatever I what", your second thought might very well be, "So what am I going to do?"  This has happened endless times in games I have played.  I log on, get into a group and then someone says, "So what do you want to do."  And no one can come up with a satisfactory answer and before you know it, someone says they are leaving to join another group and another person decides to go eat and pretty soon you're alone.  So then you think well maybe I'll solo for a bit, but you can't really decide what the best thing is to do solo.

     

    My point is that a game had better have enough depth to always keep you busy, especially if you remove character advancement.  Because as boring as grinding can be, it's still something to do.  And if you remove it, some players are liable to wander about aimlessly.

    True, those would probably be the challenges for anyone trying to develop this type of game.  You have to have enough depth and enough games to keep players busy.  Really, it would still turn into a sandbox vs. linear type of arguement., since this system would NOT work in the ultra linear type of mmorpg that everyone is churning out.

     

    But, if you have more of a sandboxy type of world with player driven content and a player run economy, the character progression part isnt even neccesary.  You could still go out an hunt mobs for the drops  You could still have some questing in there, preferably some type of player generated quests.  You could still PvP and you wouldnt have to grind through 50, 60, 70, levels to get there.

    So, maybe the only real requirement would be comming up with some type of optional tutorial that introduces players to the world and everything they can do. 

    These are really good posts.  What they seem to stress is complex gameplay options in "sandbox" worlds without levelling.  Well, characters need to progress somehow -- to get better with the time you've invested in them.  I prefer skill-based progressions to levelling, but they're both still grinding the numbers.  There are a few games that do come to mind, though.  At the top of the list is EVE, of course.  Totally open worldscape.  Nearly limitless possibilities for gameplay.  Solo or group.  Full loot PvP.  Complex crafting.  Player "cities".  Unlimited storage.  Your play doesn't even affect your skill gains.  Real time is what gains skills, keeping that separate from playing the game and doing stuf.  Unfortunately, the personal attachment to an avatar is missing.  And it's REALLY rough on new players.  But otherwise, it's THE great MMORPG currently of the style described above.

     

    I think there WERE a couple of others.  For all it's bugs and flaws, pre-CU SWG gave me the options to craft or kill, solo or group, raid or chat.  Loved it.  With the attachment to the avatars, that was the one that kept me playing for hours and ages.  Alas, no more.  Horizons was similar in terms of options, with even MORE skill options since you could literally "do it all".  Alas, more corporate mismanagement brought that great game to its knees seemingly from the start.  AO had a lot of the same elements, though Shadowlands took the game way too much into the fantasy realm for a sci-fi, and REQUIRING it for the good stuf was a bummer.  And once you got over level 100, things ramped up QUICKLY, to the point where it got too hard for me.  Musta been like that for many other folks, 'cause there were a WHOLE lot of people who stopped at 60 and started a new toon.

    Which kinda brings me back to UO, to which I've just returned with Kiingdom Reborn.  Yeah, the skill point cap is annoying.  You can't "do it all" and you really need to choose your skillset carefully.  But it's that open-ended sandbox that's still going strong after 10 years.  I recently tried Ashen Empires, which is a lot like UO but without the skill restrictions.  But, while it's a very good game in the sandbox style, the graphics are just TOO dated.

    As for quest-driven levelling, I LOVED Auto Assault.  I guess I must've been one of the few.  Gone now too.  LotRO has the same concept of quest driven levelling, but at one-fifth the speed of Auto Assault.  So it gets tiring.  And the crafting is definitely not even up to AA's quirky charm.

    I don't know if there's even a thought to making these kinds of sandbox games again.  I've been beta testing Tabula Rasa and haven't been impressed so far.  Standard level grind with questing instead of mob-grinding, and the crafting is still a work in progress (with 2 weeks to go!).  Dunno what Conan and Warhammer will bring, but I'm getting less and less hopeful that the pre-CU SWG and Horizons days will ever return.  I take heart from posts like this one though.  I guess there ARE still some folks out there who want to immerse themselves in a world and do what they want, when they want to.

    -- Xix
    "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    EVE is one of the worst MMORPGS out.  It is for kiddies who can invest their whole day into games. 



    How is EVE skill based?  You have to wait x days to get a skill?  That is skill based?

    EVE is purely a time based garbage MMORPG where the player who doesn't have any life outside of EVE will always win.  It's a stupid game and concept.   The time investment in EVE is much worse than WoW.

     

  • TatumTatum Member Posts: 1,153

    Xix13, I'd also prefer skill based over level based, but I really would like to see an MMO with ZERO character progression.  You log in, create your character, and chose their skills.  From that point on, your avatar never "progresses".  You'll get better at playing your character and you'll progress through what ever you're doing in the game world, but the numbers wont change.  The game could still have everything that the typical MMO has and more, it just wouldnt be focused on the treadmill.

    For me, its sort of like cutting out all the filler.  Instead of comming up with a great "endgame" and forcing players to grind their way to it, you just put all your focus on the "endgame" and let players do that from day one.

  • vitiatevitiate Member Posts: 15

    Originally posted by Tatum


    Xix13, I'd also prefer skill based over level based, but I really would like to see an MMO with ZERO character progression.  You log in, create your character, and chose their skills.  From that point on, your avatar never "progresses".  You'll get better at playing your character and you'll progress through what ever you're doing in the game world, but the numbers wont change.  The game could still have everything that the typical MMO has and more, it just wouldnt be focused on the treadmill.
    For me, its sort of like cutting out all the filler.  Instead of comming up with a great "endgame" and forcing players to grind their way to it, you just put all your focus on the "endgame" and let players do that from day one.

    Looks like we're all waiting for Darkfall.

  • unherdninjaunherdninja Member Posts: 331

     

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    EVE is one of the worst MMORPGS out.  It is for kiddies who can invest their whole day into games. CCP, the developers of EVE recently came out with statistics showing the average age for an eve online player is 27. 



    How is EVE skill based?  You have to wait x days to get a skill?  That is skill based?if the only thing youve ever done was play the free trial then yes of course you would think that. Get in a 0.0 allience and do a fleet op or two. a player with 1 mill sp is almost just as helpful as a player with 30mill sp. Its hard to explain but EVE is highly skill based compared to most games(world of warcraft to name one).
    EVE is purely a time based garbage MMORPG where the player who doesn't have any life outside of EVE will always win.  It's a stupid game and concept.   The time investment in EVE is much worse than WoW. You must not have thought hard on this one. EVE online's skill system makes it so no matter how much you play you can only be so good. weather you play 10 hours a day or 1 hour a day it still takes atleast 4 mounths for example to get a battle ship(more or less). The only reason to play is to make money.
    A game like WoW however requires you to "have no life outside" of it in order to be max lvl with great gear(in my opinion). Think more please before you post.
    Your freind,
    Unheardninja.

    Corrected your mistakes. good post though.

     

     

     

  • Xix13Xix13 Member Posts: 259

    Not sure I can see how that would work, Tatum.  Even in real life, we progress as we use our skills.  I was a much better programmer each week, for example, when I was programming every day, before I "levelled up" into the management "prestige class".  (And was THAT ever a bad life-gaming decision!  O_O )  We're never static in our skills.  We always progress in what we do, or at least we should.  I like that these games try and reflect that tendency.  It's the WAYS that we can use the new game skills that aren't really very creative.  Yeah, when we hit level 20 we move onto the next section of terrain, with some new graphics of mobs that take and deal more damage than the last section.  And for a few levels, while we're grabbing our new improved gear, there may be a little challenge.  But then it's grind to lvl 40 and the new section of terrain, rinse, repeat.

    Some of the things I liked about SWG, Horizons and UO were that the world wasn't level-based, even if your skills were about higher numbers.  All the planets, continents, whatever could be returned to for rewards, crafting supplies, or just to interact with other players.  Hence, you had the Coronet Cantina and West Britain Bank where players of all levels hung out.  The games where the terrain you're in is determined by the level you're at are the worst kinds to me.  Unfortunately, the newer games are not only going with player levelling but terrain levelling as well.  LotRO, TR, etc. all push you thru the worldspaces as well as the character levels.  We're basically playing linear single-player RPGs with a bunch of other folks cluttering up the landscapes.  Yeah, we need some of those other folks to do the tougher stuf and instances, but basically it's the same linear gameplay of the single-player games.  THAT'S the trend I don't like.

    So, on further reflection, maybe Tatum's idea is something to think about.  It would certainly do away with the linear nature of the games.  But might it also remove some of the personal attachment to the avatar?

    -- Xix
    "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"

  • GinkeqGinkeq Member Posts: 615

    Originally posted by unherdninja


     

    Originally posted by Ginkeq


    EVE is one of the worst MMORPGS out.  It is for kiddies who can invest their whole day into games. CCP, the developers of EVE recently came out with statistics showing the average age for an eve online player is 27. 



    How is EVE skill based?  You have to wait x days to get a skill?  That is skill based?if the only thing youve ever done was play the free trial then yes of course you would think that. Get in a 0.0 allience and do a fleet op or two. a player with 1 mill sp is almost just as helpful as a player with 30mill sp. Its hard to explain but EVE is highly skill based compared to most games(world of warcraft to name one).
    EVE is purely a time based garbage MMORPG where the player who doesn't have any life outside of EVE will always win.  It's a stupid game and concept.   The time investment in EVE is much worse than WoW. You must not have thought hard on this one. EVE online's skill system makes it so no matter how much you play you can only be so good. weather you play 10 hours a day or 1 hour a day it still takes atleast 4 mounths for example to get a battle ship(more or less). The only reason to play is to make money.
    A game like WoW however requires you to "have no life outside" of it in order to be max lvl with great gear(in my opinion). Think more please before you post.
    Your freind,
    Unheardninja.

    Corrected your mistakes. good post though.

     

     

     

    Your idea of an MMORPG obviously is that you should have to play it for 20 years or however long the idiotic eve skill system takes to get the abilities.  Yeah that is enjoyable.  I want to be a senior citizen by the time my character in eve is good because I dont have any control over it. 



    Skill systems are ridiculous and especially those which are based on real life time.  At least in WoW i could get all the skills I want in a matter of weeks, but in eve i would have to invest like a year of time.  So in EVE you basically pay for them to hold your character until it doesn't suck (once it gets skillups).  I'm sure that takes up a lot of their bandwidth.

    EVE is a crap point and click MMORPG where it removes skill from the game.  All you need to know is what gear to buy and how to click on enemies. 

    EVE is a rehash of all other MMO concepts, except you are in a space ship. 

  • ZindaihasZindaihas Member UncommonPosts: 3,662
    Originally posted by Tatum


    Xix13, I'd also prefer skill based over level based, but I really would like to see an MMO with ZERO character progression.  You log in, create your character, and chose their skills.  From that point on, your avatar never "progresses".  You'll get better at playing your character and you'll progress through what ever you're doing in the game world, but the numbers wont change.  The game could still have everything that the typical MMO has and more, it just wouldnt be focused on the treadmill.
    For me, its sort of like cutting out all the filler.  Instead of comming up with a great "endgame" and forcing players to grind their way to it, you just put all your focus on the "endgame" and let players do that from day one.



    I think it's good to have something to shoot for and I am a big advocate of skill-based progression over level-based progression.  It can give a game structure while at the same time, keeping all players of various skill levels on roughly the same plane.  For example, in a level-based game, a player who is several levels below another has virtually no chance winning in a head to head battle.  In a skill-based MMO, however, let's say you have a warrior who only knows how to wield a single weapon challening another warrior who has learned to dual wield.  While the dual wielder might have an advantage, the single wielder still could have a legitimate chance of winning if he fights wisely.

  • McGruggMcGrugg Member Posts: 60

    I think the problem (for us vet MMo players that is)  is more or less in today's MMOs we gradually lose sight of why we're playing in the first place.  Whether it be for role play, adventure, crafting, pvp, etc., it seems the newer the MMO the more we're forced into monotonous HacknSlash gameplay.  Whatever happened to freedom, the idea that in this persistent world you could get by doing the things you actually wanted to do from the get go?  Today if you want to craft, pvp, adventure, etc., you're forced to do the same old quest/mob grind for pointless levels.  So they're telling us that we have to pay for the game, expansion packs, then the monthly fee for months/years on end before we're actually capable of enjoying the play style we preferred in the first place?

     

    All I've seen these past few years is a serious neglect to vet mmo players and creative gameplay and an increased pandering to one dimensional gameplay and today's mmo players that're unfortunately unaware that there used to be more variety in an MMO.

    Now i'm not trying to say wipe out character progression, I'm just saying as i've said before, when the only thing offered is a never ending grind, there's a serious lack of creative thought going on.

     

     

  • KyntorKyntor Member Posts: 280

     

    Originally posted by Tatum


    Ginkeq, Ive been saying this for a while and I still believe it:  character progression is the single biggest feature that MMOs need to overcome.  Yea, I know, plenty of people LOVE character progression.  Thats fine, really.  There will, more than likely, ALWAYS be MMOs out there that focus on this.  So, thats not really a concern. 
    The problem is, as long as your primary focus is on character progression the game will always be a grind (for many of us).  It doesnt matter whether your camping retarded mobs or doing some pointless, static quest, youre always just grinding through it to hear that *DING*.  Its a cheap excuse for content, seriously.  Theres no real progression, since everyone eventually ends up at the same level cap with the same gear and skills as everyone else of their class.  Its NO DIFFERENT than the earliest video games where you went through infinite levels of the exact same shit that just got faster every time, onjly it never really gets faster in MMOs, the numbers just get bigger.
    I know that those of us who want to see zero character progression or flat character progression are in the minority.  But, that doesnt mean it wont happen at some point and it doesnt mean that it wont open up tons of new possibilities for MMOs.  Imagine for a second that you log into an MMO and your first thought is "I can do what ever I want".  Youre not thinking "I need to go knock out this level" or "I need to go grind out this faction/trait/skill".  You just log on and do what ever you feel like, group up with who ever you run into, go where ever you want...

     

     

    I disagree with you.  The problem is not that character progression exists, but that character progression ends.  People are so focused on reaching endgame/level-cap/skill-cap that they forget to enjoy themselves along the way.  Developers often falls into the same trap.

     

    "Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."

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