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I agree with the OP but I wish he would try to be a bit more 'diplomatic'?
I talked bout Quests a bit in my blog here: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/092007/466_Treatise-on-Character-Advancement-Systems
i'd much prefer skill based system whereas I skillup doing what I want- dueling, crafting, etc.
I like Quests but feel they should be *optional*
I like skill based systems because I progress my avatar doing what i find interesting.
I agree with the op. Ironicly its the reasonw hy i play wow - it is the only game you can level in without doing stupid quests.
Originally posted by Ginkeq Their target audience is the dumb skill-less player who can invest a lot of time basically, I will agree to that.Just look how watered down WoWs PvE and PvP systems are. Catering to skill-less newbs who can invest a lot of time
On a side note...MMOs are the worst genre to base gaming skills on...
Originally posted by Ginkeq Originally posted by korvix I have came to the conclusion that Ginkeq just does not know how to view a idea through another persons eyes.Nothing anyone says will change their mind. ^^
How are pointless quests any more meaningful than grinding?
Forced Quests = No Exploring = Boring & Annoying Leveling System
forced quests just give u extra exp cuz u grind to get some of it then the quest gives u the rest
WoW's quest system was one of the things that made it incredibly popular...in fact it still does. Being able to level from 1 to max just by questing is something that casual gamers yearned for years to have and finally got with WoW. No more having to camp and grind out 15k mobs in one spot for a week to level.
That said, it's been really abused in WoW and all the WoW clones (yes I know...WoW is an EQ clone...WoW clones have this same questing mechanic). So I think instead of people being sick of grinding, they're now sick of grinding and grinding quests.
So yeah, I do partly agree with the OP. Newer MMOs just need to get away from the concept of grinding completely. That includes rep grinds, gear grinds, raid grinds (trash mob mechanic overused), pvp grinds, etc.
----------Life sucks, buy a helmet.
I wouldn't just limit it to new MMOGs, the old ones weren't any better.
To me it doesn't matter if it is in the form of quests or monsters, I don't like grinding. The reason this exists is because MMOGs are still stuck in that DnD hierarchy concept of getting better and more skills/levels/gear, when it should mainly be the players skill improving and driving the game, horizontal progression. Not to mention that most things are automated and the player takes a passive role in the game, making it both nonengauging and repetitive.
Adding or removing quests is treating the symptom not the disease, MMOGs need some serious renovations to their core structure to make them interesting.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
So your saying that grinding mob take more skill than doing quest ? Are you just retarded ?
Imo lvling in mmo is the boring part i always hated it , but at least when i quest , i can get some item/extra XP and sometime reputation/faction to eventualy get sweet item .
I have been playing mmo since UO in 99 and wow was by far the funiest xp grind of all . Mmo is all about END GAME or PvP to me . So seriously if you have fun griding mob you are proly some retarded guy or some pothead that cant handle more than pushing same hotkey over n over n over .
Why do you think WoW has milions of sub ? Cause it was pretty much the first mmo with questing , of course after doing it 10000 time it get boring but at first i had fun doing it . Dont call me a wow noob like i know some will do , right now i play EQ2 on a pvp server and i really enjoy questing( quest give u aa to be even more competitive) .
So to the old EQ fan that cant handle more than killing mob over n over , you can go download some SNES game where u walk and kill npc lol .
The way I see it is like this...
When you start playing an MMO grinding/quests are all good but they become repetative. So you do some PvP and it all good again. But if you are just going to PVP then there are better games (ones that actually require skill rather than highest lvl wins).
When you play your 2nd MMO or have had enough of PVP people aren't quite so keen to do the same repetative stuff.
At the moment most people in the world aint played an MMO so if companies want $$$ they don't need to make a totally orininal/fun game because this crap is still fun to the nubs and casual players.
I mean look at the Wii, the games are simple yet people like it. But if you are more "hardcore" you will likely own a 360 or PC for the truly l33t ppl. (FPS on controller ).
There is no "answer" for the devs, they dont need one. until MMOS become more mainstream and mr average gets bored of wow there is no problem and thus no answer.
The answer for me (and i hope there are atleast a few like me) is to have everything. A game that has the normal MMO system but the combat should be FPS based and the outcome not totaly preditermined by class/setup/group but also by your aiming and other more direct tatics and of course luck.
You should be able to level up from this. But you should also be able to lvl via quests or grinding.
There should be both open PVP and fake instanced PVP but certain safe and dangerous zones.
Eve is the closest one can get at this moment in time to my ideal game but it is still quite a bit off. The combat is nothing to write home about, not that many tactics, quite lot is predetermined on your ship setup/ numbers. would be cool if you could actually aim.
After playing an MMO normal games like UT just seem very borning and shallow but i love the skill factor.
Unfortuantly all this is not possible, if it takes 5 years to make WoW then we are screwed lol. we need the industry to be bigger (but at the same time this can hurt it ala music industry and film industry and the way the rest of the gaming industry is going to some extent.) but it does men more garanteed profits, bigger dev teams and in theory better games. or we need the tech to get better so it is easier to make these uber games.
Roll on Huxley because other than Panetside it will be the 2nd decent MMOFPS (future of gaming IMO)
Looking forward to WAR because you can level via PVP.
AoC because of player ownd structured and real PVP rather than RVR.
Eve is getting better, "heat" and a few other changes should make combat more fun, factional warfare will add the instanced instant PVP for players with less time. (carebears).
To answer the OP , most new MMOs suck because they are very similar to the odl ones, and while we have played em and got bored there are millions of people out there, who have not played waiving money at the devs for a few 100 samey quests to do.
Just gotta count on people like CCP who are more interested in making a quality product than shareholders.
Please someone let me be a game dev lol.
PS. I still play MMOS because they are just that, nothing is as cool (sad) as being on 1 big server with 1000s of other people and you band of buddies all on Teamspeak int he same clan ready go kick ass).
would be awesome to see an MMO get away from grinding but then we transistion over into a game where player skill > time. that means you're up against the heavy hitters like Crysis, UT3, and such.
The suits dont know how to keep us payin' without grindin' us into the ground. I'd love to see someone try it though. W.E.L.L. online appears to be proposing seriously FAST leveling I wonder what their angle is....
Originally posted by vajuras I agree with the OP but I wish he would try to be a bit more 'diplomatic'?I talked bout Quests a bit in my blog here: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/092007/466_Treatise-on-Character-Advancement-Systemsi'd much prefer skill based system whereas I skillup doing what I want- dueling, crafting, etc.I like Quests but feel they should be *optional*I like skill based systems because I progress my avatar doing what i find interesting.
I agree, my first mmorpg was Star Wars Galaxies, in the start you had the ability to develop your character after your own desiers, and then change it whenever you want to however you want. Unlike WoW you didnt have to stick with the same "class" as you first choosed. Tabula rasa has some sort of the same character progression as SWG through their Cloning system, creating the possibility to explore all of the "classes" without having to level up from start to finish.
I would love a game that had the character progression/change as SWG once had, with the wow questing experience, making it possible to fully explore each "class" through leveling. Somewhat like RL, you have to get an education withing certain fields to get certain jobs, if u regret the education you took you can allways go back to your studies and get another education. This will however make an constant leveling system that would never end untill u get sick of the game fully, thus having a limited form for "end game content".
Originally posted by Philss So your saying that grinding mob take more skill than doing quest ? Are you just retarded ? Imo lvling in mmo is the boring part i always hated it , but at least when i quest , i can get some item/extra XP and sometime reputation/faction to eventualy get sweet item .I have been playing mmo since UO in 99 and wow was by far the funiest xp grind of all . Mmo is all about END GAME or PvP to me . So seriously if you have fun griding mob you are proly some retarded guy or some pothead that cant handle more than pushing same hotkey over n over n over . Why do you think WoW has milions of sub ? Cause it was pretty much the first mmo with questing , of course after doing it 10000 time it get boring but at first i had fun doing it . Dont call me a wow noob like i know some will do , right now i play EQ2 on a pvp server and i really enjoy questing( quest give u aa to be even more competitive) .So to the old EQ fan that cant handle more than killing mob over n over , you can go download some SNES game where u walk and kill npc lol .
Lol I cant handle more than killing mob over and over.. yeah that is it. Maybe Im sick of being told where to go in MMORPGs because their game doesnt want to let players explore for themselves.
And lol, wow first MMO with questing... right Actually, it has millions of subs because it is such a brain-dead game that it appeals to most people.
As others have stated, grinding exp and grinding quests are both boring. A game shouldnt force one or the other, and I don't think that grinding should be a part of MMOs like others have said. You dont need to spend 4 hours per level to figure out how to use the skills in WoW. Maybe an hour or two whenever you get new skills (every 4 levels). Newer MMOs should allow progression based on skill and not time investment.
Players never learn to play their classes based on grinding, so it is all pointless in the end. Look at all the lvl 70s in wow who can't play their character at all. More time spent grinding won't help these players
In summary : MMO should have exploration and not a quest system, also leveling should be based on skill and not time investment (or get rid of the whole idiotic leveling concept)
Grinding or quests, it's poor gameplay and lack of skill/repetativentess is the problem.
MMO makers/players complain about macros. IF you can level up by using a macro then it is te devs fault for making it crap. only way to resolve this is currently PVP or better AI/ more intelligent quests, both need better technology or more devs. PVE content is at the moment very time consuming to make well. which means power gamers get bored.
Also annoys me that the lack of real targeting/aiming makes ranged claases very good. you cant miss and if they are gonna use puerly stats based mechanics atleast have some range / damage degragation.
(oh yeah Eve hassome of that )
MMORPGs suck now because they aren't made for gamers anymore. I get it now.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I think it's just the fact that most of us here have been playing MMO's so long that grinding/questing just isent fun anymore. I mean i used to love MMO's now i can't find one that i can really get into, I just get too board when I start a new toon and think omfg i have to go from lvl 1-50,60,70-200 depending on game, before the fun begins.
Am I so wrong to dream of a new mmo where its fun from start to end game? Where you don't really have to grind to lvl up? I mean something to recapture the feel of that MMO's gave me when i started playing 9 years ago.
I also miss the social aspect of the old MMO's, now i never liked the forced grouping but, today's mmo are full of people who just wanna solo, its near impossible to really group, and that was one of the main things I loved so much about the MMO genere.
Guess I need to find a team to play with before I start a new MMO, kindda like the old days with DnD campagins.
Anyway thats my 2cp worth, End Rant.
Originally posted by goneglockin MMORPGs suck now because they aren't made for gamers anymore. I get it now.
It is true,
product led or market led? games are made to sell as much as possible rather than to just be good. because to be good they cost money to make. it is a rock and a hard place. they dont always go hand in hand.
I think the mob should have skill abilities near or higher than you to gain skill levels. Then again, to be really hardcore, if you face someone less skilled than you, you should have a chance to lose skill points.
im in a nuetral stance honestly i dont really like questing as im a hardcore PVPer but nor do i like griding. to me questing gives me a reason to do something. but straight grinding its like this
oh theres a boar let me kill it.....SWEEET 60xp..wow theres another 1 ill kill IT to.....'6 hours later' ZOMG theres so many boars ill just kill them all
but i think the only true game that seems to address most of our questing / grinding issues is WAR. and its not a WoW clone at all. in terms of the OPs exploring WAR has developed the question system that allows you to explore at your own free will and sometimes while exploring you find a dead man with a sword or other things and you get the quest reward for finding him. there op u happy you have a reason to explore and your not being ordered to do it either. and the WAR quests ACTUALLY are tied into the lore and story line of WAR unlike WOW which is u kill x, y, z just to get a reward and thats it. but in wow u kill x, y, z to get the gaint to knock down the door to the city. all the quests directly affect the overall war.
Funny thing is though the OP keeps saying "I hate doing that" Well just because YOU hate it OP doesn't mean other people do. As well as it by NO MEANS relates that all MMO's suck because YOU don't like questing for your EXP. I happen to like it. I love reading the stories much over just running into a field clearing it waiting for repops and repeating. Now i agree though i also like Dungeon runs and stuf but it's even more funs when i'm questing IN those dungeons... like in eq2.
But anyway I rant sorry... But just saying Just because 1 or some people don't like something doesn't make a game a bad game. Not every game can cater to EVERY player 100% find the game YOU enjoy and stick with it.
what skills have you? skill to blindly criticize people and label people you never know at all? skill to sit in front of a computer and say the only way to play is to camp a mob for some pixel patterns called a cloak of no return?
you may feel that sitting static at a spot waiting killing a mob, waiting, rinse ... is all a game need to offer. Others may want variety. They enjoy some questing, some roleplaying, some exploration, some storyline, some chatting, some crafting ... . To each his own. Nobody force you to talk to a quest giver. The game will not ban you if you skip all these quest giver and go kill mobs. Why should the game reward mob grinding with more xp than the effort to participate in the game world and do the quests? The developers make THEIR GAME the way they see fit, and allocate xp in whatever they like. Its their game, not yours. you only subscribe to earn a ticket to play it. If you do not like it, cancel subscription and move on. There are tons of Korean made games in which there is only one way to levelling and that is grinding. You do not need to subscribe to quest heavy games.
EQ was popular back then not b/c ppl love to fight over a mob, train zones, argue over ownership of a camp spot (which is absurd, who owns the bridge to the valley of dumbfound? SoE does not you). Nobody enjoys the long winded process of finding 40 guys to fight up to plane of power only to be all killed by a big lag. EQ was popular b/c there is no alternate game apart from UO, which has it own trouble. EQ was popular only to half a million guys (to be precise, half a million (or so?) accounts ever sold and not all active at once) and only till newer games show up.
EQ gave many of us the first taste of really massive online cooperative games. It is also the father of forced grouping. You can NEVER do anything serious alone. EQ is also the breeder of 2boxing. It was never perfect but at that time its the only game for MMO goers. Many players have matured, have grown up and moved on to other forms of gaming and entertainment, or to other MMOs which offers more variety. They have enough of the kind of game world EQ provides. If you still want to linger onto it, sure, there are still a few EQ servers around.
But to call others dumb, skill-less just for that? Hmm I think you need to seek a counsellor.
The real reason why new mmos suck is because they don't have 10 years worth of updates and expansions to them. Remember all the early mmos when they first came out, they are a joke to the games that are coming out now. I don't think its quests since they give you a reason to progress on other then being the best player. Its the stupid quests that are annoying. The only games addressing this are Aion and Ragnarok Online 2. Aion with a completely quest level up method (no leveling exp), and Ragnarok Online 2 with Dynamic Quests.
Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Originally posted by vajuras I agree with the OP but I wish he would try to be a bit more 'diplomatic'?I talked bout Quests a bit in my blog here: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/092007/466_Treatise-on-Character-Advancement-Systemsi'd much prefer skill based system whereas I skillup doing what I want- dueling, crafting, etc.I like Quests but feel they should be *optional*I like skill based systems because I progress my avatar doing what i find interesting.
I'd do quests if I was curious about the lore and background to help immerse me in the world.
Naturally I'd get bored on fighting rats at some point I'm ot sure i understand your question. In EVE Online- missions have difficulty levels for example. So you dont fight the same boring mob type unless you just want to.
I don't see how grinding is any less participating in the game than performing quests that took 10 seconds to come up with to justify (Omg the rats are in the subway tunnels play this flute to the rats).
Anyway, my problem i guess is the leveling system. Here are my views:
Leveling is sort of a stupid concept. What is the point of leveling even? To me, it was always to get to the max level and actually do some raids which are interesting. Or it would be to get max level, raid for gear in order to pvp.
So, my views now are that levels should be removed from MMORPGs. Why should they be removed? They contribute nothing to the game in my opinion, and they are just an obstacle. And to all those "HARD CORE" players who think leveling is great, take a look at all the 70s in WoW and look how many of them suck. Leveling can't make a player more skilled or anything like that. You don't need to spend a month of grinding to figure out how to play a class (unless you have learning disabilities).
By the way, leveling just hurts the skilled players who can't put in huge time investments. I was recently beta-testing an upcoming MMORPG and I can't believe the ridiculous time investment required. Quests all over the place just to get exp. Sure it was a little faster than WoW but not as enjoyable (relatively, as leveling is not enjoyable).
In any case, it's the kiddies who benefit from having all the grinds in, because they are the only type of people who can tolerate boring grinds for such long periods of time. Would any older person be able to tolerate it?
Leveling to max is not an accomplishment at all. I wonder when these moron developers will realize it. It's a real shame that all these new MMOs like WoW are appealing to the kiddies with their dumb concepts. Or maybe they should allow you to start out as 70 OR level up if you really want to. That would make sense.
MMORPGs should provide an environment where skilled players from one game can come in and concentrate only on doing what they want (beating their PvE instances, whatever), and then move on to another MMORPG if they run out of content.
I'm not talking about something like EVE either. That game is just garbage and is worse than WoW because of the infinite time investment required to have a decent character. They replaced levels with skill systems where each skill completes in hours/days. How fun, waiting a couple days. Get rid of all of it. Make gear the deciding factor, not time investments.
I just want to get in an MMORPG, PvE challenging content, and PvP. Who cares about the mindless grinds? Pointless
If they did remove leveling, then the end game would be awesome. There would be very interesting PvE content because they wouldnt have to focus on putting in garbage quests for newbies which no one really cares about
grinding in group is fun ....
I prefer questing (but some quest are so dull) go X kill Xx10, kill named...go gather.....bleh
The OP is definatly in the minority, most people like doing endless quests until they die of boredom or quit! =P I believe I am apart of that minority, not sure if many you have played it but Morowind/Oblivion games I loved. They are offline, but in some ways they gave me a much better MMO experience than an actual MMO. Games these days you are directed to much... They should throw you in the middle of the world and you have to think and fend for yourselves. I think when MMO's were new the designers had the right idea... Now the genre is spoiled and I really can't see things improving...
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?Final Fantasy 7
To make games with he same quality quests as Oblivion it would need an army of Devs. otherwise the "hardcore" would finish them in a week, great we worked 5 years and in a week or 2 we are out of content. Until this changes PVP is the only way IMO.