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What's the cause of population loss?
larryjr88
Member Posts: 39
I'm new to DaoC, and am really loving it so far. I've played every major MMO out there. However, I cannot seem to pinpoint what caused Daoc to start a downfall. Obviously the population is getting bad, but why?
What major error did the developers make? I ask this because we can easily explain the reason for a game to become deserted. For example, SOE screwed SWG with the combat revamp and other stupid implimentations like that. That's widely known and recognizable. UO's downslide wad caused by the introduction of Trammel and item based gameplay. WoW's badpoint is too much raid content.
Now, what is Daoc's major flaw that has caused it to lose so much of the player base?
Comments
Quit and take a break b4 the WAR.
Sell accounts get some money b4 Daoc is shut down.
New DEV got no clue how to balance.
Same old crap for the last 4 yrs.
This is really difficult to answer. There was not "one" thing, but rather a pattern of neglect. First, in order for a game to survive it needs to bring in enough people to make up for those that cancel. You also need to bring in enough new people to make up for the fact that older players play less. The problem is that people do not pay attention to that and only subscriber numbers. Here is roughly the "major" mistakes that the developers made:
1. Allowing second accounts to be used as buffs. This used to not be the case but they allowed it and this allowed people to level up to 50 an account and then PL/Buff a second account. This had impacts for groups but also for RvR.
2. The Trials of Atlantis expansion. It was an expansion that was more suited for EQ. It added tons of PvE content and overpowered items. Those items were so strong that they changed the balance of RvR causing people to have to do a lot of PvE content. Just to give you an idea, it took 50 days in game played to get to level 50. It could take out about as long to get everything done in ToA that you needed to get done. The problem with this is that most of the original players quit EQ for the overpowered long Raid style expansions. DAOC was a group centered game. This made Raids necessary. What make things worse about this is that it made the power difference between the "hard core" players and the "casual" players way too much. Casual players stoped playing RvR. Less RvR meant that people quit.
3. Crafting allowed in housing. People used to need to go to the capital to craft and they would talk. People would also go there looking for crafters. Crafting/selling in houses removed this.
4. Easiness of leveling/server switching. They made it easy to level which was nice, but they also encourged people to go to another server for population balance. This erroded the community on servers. There used to be realm pride, but things just became out leveling and earing realm ranks. Without a strong community things fall apart.
5. The "Classic" servers. Not really classic, but instead of fixing the problems with ToA they added a new server type. This caused those servers to loose a lot of population. Then ToA was fixed, but it was years from ToA initial relase and after the Classic servers so the older servers sufrfer from a population loss. New players pick the most populated server, so there is little to no growth on the older servers.
In addition to those mistakes we have:
6. Vivendi (their former publisher and owner of WoW) would not promote their game. There was no longer a big initial launch so it was just the expansion. They knew people would buy the expansion for already owned the game and they did not care to try and grow it espically once WoW was in development.
7. Lack of advertising. They spent money working on other games instead of trying to grow DAOC. Any ads were in typical places where players already knew of DAOC and it had little impact. No ads on TV/movies, less "gamer" oriented sites.
8. Put out a "5th Anviersary" collection because that say "Old" and most people will not buy old.
9. The older versions of the trial had bad graphics and the trial now I think it still really complicated if you want to get the good graphics.
10. WoW. It took 33% of players from almost every mmorpg. That sudden population loss really hurt. It made other people play less which in turn made others play less. Then when people see less people playing and their friends gone or playing a lot less, then they quit.
11. Taking too long to make necessary changes to the game.
12. WAR. I think WAR is overhyped and is not going to be at all like DAOC. But they money/promotion is going into WAR and not DAOC.
So in short it is neglect. Things are much better now in terms of playing, but they waited too long to fix their mistakes and are not willing to invest the money needed to grow the game.
Great post! Very helpful.
Agreed, a very good post.
I quit because of the ToA imbalance.
Currently Playing Nothing...
Buff bots,class imbalance,low populations,toa,casters that cant cast in combat,etc.
i was thinking about coming back to DAOC, so would it be a waste of my time and money now to come back?
1. Allowing second accounts to be used as buffs. This used to not be the case but they allowed it and this allowed people to level up to 50 an account and then PL/Buff a second account. This had impacts for groups but also for RvR.
Dont buy 2nd account ... get groups and play. If u are stealther , then u need a buffbot.
2. The Trials of Atlantis expansion. It was an expansion that was more suited for EQ. It added tons of PvE content and overpowered items. Those items were so strong that they changed the balance of RvR causing people to have to do a lot of PvE content. Just to give you an idea, it took 50 days in game played to get to level 50. It could take out about as long to get everything done in ToA that you needed to get done. The problem with this is that most of the original players quit EQ for the overpowered long Raid style expansions. DAOC was a group centered game. This made Raids necessary. What make things worse about this is that it made the power difference between the "hard core" players and the "casual" players way too much. Casual players stoped playing RvR. Less RvR meant that people quit.
it took 50 days in game played to get to level 50. = If u know what to do , it take 2-4 days playtime . If u wondering arround doing nothing , yes will take 50 days.
What make things worse about this is that it made the power difference between the "hard core" players and the "casual" players way too much. = Its not about casuals and hardcore player , its about skilled or no. Game it was too hard for em.
3. Crafting allowed in housing. People used to need to go to the capital to craft and they would talk. People would also go there looking for crafters. Crafting/selling in houses removed this.
None crafting in housing , as long there is a 5% bonus crafting in capital cities. There are more way to find a crafter , than waiting in capital.
4. Easiness of leveling/server switching. They made it easy to level which was nice, but they also encourged people to go to another server for population balance. This erroded the community on servers. There used to be realm pride, but things just became out leveling and earing realm ranks. Without a strong community things fall apart.
As long someone doesnt use information to beat enemy realm , everything its ok .
5. The "Classic" servers. Not really classic, but instead of fixing the problems with ToA they added a new server type. This caused those servers to loose a lot of population. Then ToA was fixed, but it was years from ToA initial relase and after the Classic servers so the older servers sufrfer from a population loss. New players pick the most populated server, so there is little to no growth on the older servers.
Thats happent to daoc server only? i dont think so.
7. Lack of advertising. They spent money working on other games instead of trying to grow DAOC. Any ads were in typical places where players already knew of DAOC and it had little impact. No ads on TV/movies, less "gamer" oriented sites.
True
8. Put out a "5th Anviersary" collection because that say "Old" and most people will not buy old.
Does that helped to decrease daoc population ?? It was a nice pack , to find all expansions .
9. The older versions of the trial had bad graphics and the trial now I think it still really complicated if you want to get the good graphics.
Only SI had bad graphics as i remember . ToA really boosted em. And now , in version 1.90 graphics are wonderful .
10. WoW. It took 33% of players from almost every mmorpg. That sudden population loss really hurt. It made other people play less which in turn made others play less. Then when people see less people playing and their friends gone or playing a lot less, then they quit.
True daoc players , never quit for WoW. They found it bad compare to daoc .
11. Taking too long to make necessary changes to the game.
Depents if u are playing EU or US servers . In US server , new patch coming every month.
That what are u doing is even worse. Try to show the good side of daoc. More players will come in. There are still servers for new players, like Bossiney cluster in US servers.
Daoc is the best RvR game arround , with not old graphics (As many think) , and great gameplay.
oh no, not that craptage troll again
"I actually cook my meat with nothing but my burning hatred for vegetables"
Karnaktc must have had his ass scorched pretty bad by Mythic or DAoC to always come here and post. The worst part is, the posts all resemble each other almost identically. You'd think he'd have something new to say instead of sounding like a busted record.
There are many reasons for population decline. The rather big gap between the veteran players and the new ones. The fact that the majority of people who played that game grew up, found jobs, got families, (something Karnaktc has yet to realise) or just lost interest in games all together.
If you played DAoC in the beginning and compared it to now, you'd see a pretty big difference in the attitude of the community. The game itself evolved and mutated into something I no longer recognize as DAoC or what it used to be, I can't vouch for others. Many have their own reasons, those are some of mine.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
While I am interested in how gear dependent the game is, and would ask how much griniding is necessary @ endgame for it on classic servers, I have a few questions to ask you?
Doesnt DAOC still have the best lore and setting of any game?
Doesnt it have the best non-open pvp?
Doesnt it have solid pve?
Doesnt it still have 1 more or less server for people to play on?
thats what I thought
Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.
Every post you make you seem more and more ignorant. Every gamer is a 400 pound slob? My gamer friends and I are all under 150, you sound completely stupid. Unless you have something useful to post, go away.
Last time I checked its people like you (aka one of the fat kids) that try to make everyone else feel bad. Because you feel bad about yourself. But it is ok people. Also if you don't like the game why do you waste your time showing ppl your stupidity about the game and thanks for playin dark age of camelot. Also thank you for you 14.95 please move on to something else cause no one cares.
Hi I'm Ravkeen!
Emilia_Emi Lvl 56 Witch
Now Playing : Black Desert Online
"America is not at war, the US Military is at war, America is at the mall."
Did you read the OP or what I said before that list? He wasn't asking for current problems in the game. He was asking for why DAOC had lost population. It used to take 50 days in game to level, now even the slowest person can make it in 8 days. It used to take 50 days to get to ML 10, all of your artifacts, all of your scrolls, and then level up all of your artificats to level 10. Now ToA is very different and you can get everything done in maybe 1 day played.
The current game may have fixed most of these issues, but the population loss was already there and people do not usually come back - at least not enough of them.
For the record, the patch cycle has nothing to do with fixing issues. The issues that they took years on were ToA and RvR changes. More recently they waited way too long to cluster the zones. That is what I am talking about, not that a certain weapon isn't procing so they put that in as a fix.
ToA, bots, NF, and lack of advertisement are old problems. Some have sort of been righted. Too late, might be correct in saying. I'll add my little bits now. Trying to be current as possible.
In the last years or two things have changed much within daoc and quite quickly. One month you have a solid class and the next you have crap or just something all together different. Little things like a 5% decrease in healing over time effectiveness have always been common. Which is not much to complain about. But recently changes have been on a grand scale.
Class boost have been way overboard and nerfs have been quite drastic. Major changes to basic combat have been tossed out of the window and replaced without testing it seems. Reg rates doubled, deleting the +/- effects of using shield, 2-hander, duel wield. Which in the end means shield beats all. It all comes down to, nothing will be the same next month. So dont get used to anything and don't get too attached to one character. Change is good, but not at the rate which they have been coming. Like with the recent Heretic changes. Boosted then nerfed... what after three days? This alone tells you they aren't testing anything. Then some things they have taken years to fix. Like massive shroom fields, casting through walls, hordes of theurg pets, etc... many nearly game breaking.
Oh and line of sight is still an issue. You can be out in a flat field and not be able to cast due to not being able to see your target??? Oh and pets... think you're safe behind that door? Think again, pets walk right through them. (This is an issue with the small side doors. Doesn't work on the front doors) With the old and brand new keeps.
Yet they took time to change icons, sounds, and the UI. None of which needed changing.
Also stealth is a sure fun killer. All of the stealthers have massive front load damage. Being killed in one or two attacks by an invisible is no fun. Sure is fun doing it though I must admit. But again it can be tiresome and annoying for the victim.
Oh and as the game has gotten older, people have learned how to exploit the no collision detection (run throughs, which prevents casters from casting and will allow you to get a rear positional style off from the front pretty much). Circle kitting (target not in view, although you are /stuck to them and right on their rear). And lagcasting ( window dragging etc.) I'm sure someone will say doing these things is where the SKILL in the game comes in. I'm sure a lot of the people who no longer play will say otherwise.
One last thing. Realm hoppers. "If you can't beat them, join them."
The only reason I ever left daoc was the population drop, as with all other games wow hurt the population, some came back some went on to other games to try out. The guild I was in got bored and left alb for hib then played around with mid then left the game all together, some of them are now trying Final fantasy out. overall the population loss from toa is what hurt the game then wow hurt it even more. the same thing happened to EQ when daoc came out and even more so with wow. It is the cycle of all mmorpgs in a couple more years wow will be clustering servers and having low populations sue to age of conan, war, and other games that will take some of the current player base. I think daoc will live on for many many years it just isnt going to return to its peak population. I mean even EQ lives on still just not what it once was, even uo for that matter. I am currently going to give 2 moons a try even I have been thinking of going back to daoc I just dont have the money to right now.
DAOC is still a great game. The main problem DAOC has is class balance although realm balance is still intact. DAOC is an old game, you cant play the same game forever.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
That Douche Nozzle comes in here to spout fact but fills his post with personal attacks and insults based on quite the opposite of FACT. Everybody who plays is 400 lbs? Did DAoC give you some kind of eating disorder? Were you forced to eat bacon flavored ice cream when you lost lotto on some dungeon loot or was it when you got owned in rvr because you just couldn't grasp the concept that your sorceror just wouldn't own everything?
If the game is so bad, why do you waste your time comming to boards related to it and spouting propaganda? Leave it behind, go work out. There are better things to spend your time on.... Tool.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Stop talking about donuts, I'm getting all hungry here...
OT tho:
Reasons I left DAoC:
- Trials of Atlantis Expansion (Who wants ridiculous PvE grind in a RVR game...)
- Game is getting old
- Even the best game will get boring eventually - been there, done that. Also, a lot changed over the years, and not always for the better (as discussed throughout this thread)
- Class balance
- Setgroups...because frankly, for me the most fun in DAoC was running with a group through the frontiers looking for a good fight. But on most EU servers this is only a viable option if you are willing to dedicate a lot of time, much like a CS clan, really.
Anyhow, enjoy the game, its certainly one of the better MMOs on the market, despite all its flaws.
I got tired of DAOC just like every other game I played. I am not a long term player of any single game. I gave that up with EQ. DAOC in it's current state is still one of the best mmorpgs out there, unfortunately the neglect JulianDracos talks about has already taken it's toll on the game. The devs failed to identify the problems inherent in the game once they released SI. Yes, I said, SI. It was at the time of SI and the changes that took place just prior that buffbots, realm abilities, respecs and "uber" powerlevelling classes (necro and animist) began the erosion of the game. Soon the game was ripe for an expansion, but sadly what came was ToA and that turned the erosion into a mudslide. Buffbots, artifacts, MLs, RAs and awesome solo SI era PLing classes resulted in huge imbalances in the endgame RvR. In the end it drove people away.
Nowdays, DAOC is a good game, but the people are not there or don't remain long enough. You end up with high turnover of newbs that level to 50, don't find RvR all that exciting, level maybe a second toon to 50, find RvR still isn't all that fun, and quit. Then you have the die-hards which will remain until the end regardless of the number of times they say they have quit on VN boards.
Bottomline: Population loss was due to trying to balance a game which had too many classes within too many variables. This led to devs focusing on "little things" and never really fixing the root of the problems. The root = buffbots, RAs, MLs, CAs, ToA item bonuses, and expansion classes. The good = the original classes, crafting making the best gear and consumables, DF (the original zone), SI zones (not classes), pre-RA era RvR.
Edit: I forgot to add implementing 1-50 battlegrounds to "the good."
While I am interested in how gear dependent the game is, and would ask how much griniding is necessary @ endgame for it on classic servers, I have a few questions to ask you?
Doesnt DAOC still have the best lore and setting of any game?
Doesnt it have the best non-open pvp?
Doesnt it have solid pve?
Doesnt it still have 1 more or less server for people to play on?
thats what I thought
To answer your 4 questions
1 best lore / setting? No, no it really doesn't but then thats a opinion we all have one yours is no better then mine.
2. Best non-open pvp? Possibly but While I have played alot of games I have not played them all (bet you haven't either). Thus once agaiin your statement as well as mine is nothing more then a matter of opinion.
3 Solid PVE? I'd say yes but lets cut to the chase here everything you said is your opinion not a fact just as what I said was mine. Your questions were all subjective matters of taste and while 90% of the DAoC fanbois here might agree with you the rest of the world may very well not. (Guess who's the majority and whose a minority?)
The reason DAoC is lossing pop is very easy and been pointed out by a few already. Its ageing and thanks to some of the choices by the company and Devs (ToA anyone?) its not ageing all that well. Most of us have tried it and many have played a few years. Its no longer new, the shine is gone and its not coming back. Been there done that have the t-shirt etc. After ones learned what their is to learn and experienced / explored what there was the expansion just haven't held most peoples attentions too well. (Weither they were raid centric like ToA or poor marketed/advertised.)
EQ was a big hit for its time and while its still running I don't see it making a big comeback and getting the spotlight again. SAme goes for DAoC (like it or hate it) Its allmost time to put this baby to sleep, and Mythic knows it (Thus the reason they are making WAR a MMORPG that will directly compete with DAoC) SAdly nothing lives forever, DAoC has a good run and it will probably have several more years, but will never be as big as it once was
Nighty-nite
Nice post, I agree with almost all of you major points. What it really boiled down too (and your post documents this nicely) is that there were some major missteps by the devs, and they were too slow to acknowledge their mistakes and respond to them. Alienating casual players with buffbots and ToA really stand out as the most egregious errors in my mind. When game depends on healthy populations as critically as DoAC to make it's end game work, even a steady trickle of players can become an irreversable trend.
It's a shame too, because I'd say that since around Catacombs it's clearly been one of the best MMOs on the market.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Julian pretty much nailed it. In my case it was the TOA expansion combined with the New Frontier Expansion (I liked the old frontiers, and didn't want to give them up) and a just generally getting tired of the game after 2.5 year.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I am interested in how gear dependent the game is, and would ask how much griniding is necessary @ endgame for it on classic servers, I have a few questions to ask you?
Doesnt DAOC still have the best lore and setting of any game?
Doesnt it have the best non-open pvp?
Doesnt it have solid pve?
Doesnt it still have 1 more or less server for people to play on?
thats what I thought
To answer your 4 questions
1 best lore / setting? No, no it really doesn't but then thats a opinion we all have one yours is no better then mine.
2. Best non-open pvp? Possibly but While I have played alot of games I have not played them all (bet you haven't either). Thus once agaiin your statement as well as mine is nothing more then a matter of opinion.
3 Solid PVE? I'd say yes but lets cut to the chase here everything you said is your opinion not a fact just as what I said was mine. Your questions were all subjective matters of taste and while 90% of the DAoC fanbois here might agree with you the rest of the world may very well not. (Guess who's the majority and whose a minority?)
The reason DAoC is lossing pop is very easy and been pointed out by a few already. Its ageing and thanks to some of the choices by the company and Devs (ToA anyone?) its not ageing all that well. Most of us have tried it and many have played a few years. Its no longer new, the shine is gone and its not coming back. Been there done that have the t-shirt etc. After ones learned what their is to learn and experienced / explored what there was the expansion just haven't held most peoples attentions too well. (Weither they were raid centric like ToA or poor marketed/advertised.)
EQ was a big hit for its time and while its still running I don't see it making a big comeback and getting the spotlight again. SAme goes for DAoC (like it or hate it) Its allmost time to put this baby to sleep, and Mythic knows it (Thus the reason they are making WAR a MMORPG that will directly compete with DAoC) SAdly nothing lives forever, DAoC has a good run and it will probably have several more years, but will never be as big as it once was
Nighty-nite
1. Ok...
2. I have played all of them worth noting. This is the best non-open pvp. Sure its my opinion, so is the post im responding to that you wrote, thats the point of a message board.
3. The pve is solid...we agree. If we go point for point on analyzing it there is no doubt that it is solid at the least.
Daoc is losing pop, yes, but you were flaming the game with hate-inciting language and acting like a game losing pop is a blemish on the game, when in fact it is not and really not worth bringing up. DAOC posts their pop numbers for crying out loud.
Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice.
Everygame has something thats good about it, and things that are not so good. I wager most of us had a good time playing DAOC while we did. WE have moved on. However, I dont think daoc will be going anywhere anytime soon. People post about "X game is dying" or "Y game is dead". I dont think anyone (developers included) know what it takes for a MMORPG to die. Worse games than DAOC are still kicking... Hell, Ultima Online is still up for god sakes
DAOC will stand for a while
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
greedy, selfish, mindless players