Wow needs more same power variety at level cap, not an endless upward grind

markyturnip

Instead of the expansion raising the level cap, and setting in motion the same old grind (which will not attract me back this time), I would return to WoW if it did the following:

- Introduce many more spells/powers for each class (or more hero classes, or new specialisations, or whatever), but at the same level of max power (70, since we are all 70 now); and with a limit on how many can be 'slotted' in any one character.

In other words, a far greater variety of builds, more fun effects... but at the same relative level of absolute power. This would make for much more interesting PVP. (ie.. the 'World of Warcraft' bit,) and offer allow more varied ways of approaching pve challenges. Limit the cost of switching between these builds.

- Introduce many more single or small group quests, which give the same level rewards as raid content.

- In general, create a new philosophy whereby time invested leads to more options/variety, (and thrown in pets, funky-looking outfits, interesting tricks, titles, real estate etc etc) but not greater 'power' per se. As currently designed, there is no longer any point for someone like me, with a job and a child, to play this game, when I can simply never compete with people who don't.

- Use all the existing world in more interesting ways - offer PVP challenges (conquerable fortresses and so forth) across the whole World of Warcraft. I loved some of the original Azeroth zones, and would like to experience them again.

In general, replace the concept of ever increasing power with inflation with every increasing variety, but of a similar level of power. It would still be fun to get new stuff, but allow the working Jo to enjoy the game on a competitive level as well.

Could this make as much money? Who knows. Maybe not - which is why it will not happen.

Would it make it a better game? To my mind, undoubtedly.

 

Gameloading

Not going to happen. Leveling up is another sense of achievement, Blizzard would be shootig themself in the foot by not adding more levels.

cupertino

You do know what happened to SWG when they made sweeping changes to a formula that was working dont you?

blizzard will make changes.. they just dont do it as fast as other MMO's which add feature without really thinking it through and that introduce tons of new bugs and balance issues.

The bottom line is blizzard cannot please every one, its hard enough to please 200k players but to please millions is just not possible.

hbosman

Don't fix it if it aint broker... And Blizzard thinks it isn't broken so they won't fix it 

Blizzard has a bit of a problem. They can't stop adding new instances. They whole reason people play instances is for new gear, and where does it drop? In new instances. And if people got all the new gear Blizzard has to introduce the next instance.

Something I don't understand, why not get rid of those stupid "levels". People rush the content to become lvl70, like the rest, and start raiding for better gear.

random11

But it is broken. The whole WoW system is broken, but I won't go in to it, it has been posted several times, just that fans don't grasp it.

Kyleran

Originally posted by random11


But it is broken. The whole WoW system is broken, but I won't go in to it, it has been posted several times, just that fans don't grasp it.

No, its not broken, its just not to your liking (or mine for that matter).  I've got some friends I've been gaming with for 6 years now and they still love WOW.    One is thrilled to be running through Kara with his guild, another loves the arena pvp and the 3rd loves hanging out with her friends and gaming with them.

They aren't upset by the level changes, in fact, they sort of look forward to them.  The common factor between the three  is I'd define them as more casual players than myself.... say less than 20 hours a week (and some weeks, maybe not at all).

With 9 million subscribers there's no way Blizz is going to change the formula much... they can't be everything to everyone.... so they'll cater to the audience that makes them the most money.

Its OK though...we can play other games....no reason to lament about how much you don't like WOW or want it to change....

rishaki

Originally posted by Kyleran


 
Originally posted by random11


But it is broken. The whole WoW system is broken, but I won't go in to it, it has been posted several times, just that fans don't grasp it.

No, its not broken, its just not to your liking (or mine for that matter).  I've got some friends I've been gaming with for 6 years now and they still love WOW.    One is thrilled to be running through Kara with his guild, another loves the arena pvp and the 3rd loves hanging out with her friends and gaming with them.

 

They aren't upset by the level changes, in fact, they sort of look forward to them.  The common factor between the three  is I'd define them as more casual players than myself.... say less than 20 hours a week (and some weeks, maybe not at all).

With 9 million subscribers there's no way Blizz is going to change the formula much... they can't be everything to everyone.... so they'll cater to the audience that makes them the most money.

Its OK though...we can play other games....no reason to lament about how much you don't like WOW or want it to change....

 What he said i quitt wot after clearing AQ but not because it was boring or anything, just since i dident enjoy pvp enugh, In other games pve grind-> pvp. But in this game its a bit diffrent.

Bladin

Originally posted by markyturnip


Instead of the expansion raising the level cap, and setting in motion the same old grind (which will not attract me back this time), I would return to WoW if it did the following:
- Introduce many more spells/powers for each class (or more hero classes, or new specialisations, or whatever), but at the same level of max power (70, since we are all 70 now); and with a limit on how many can be 'slotted' in any one character.
In other words, a far greater variety of builds, more fun effects... but at the same relative level of absolute power. This would make for much more interesting PVP. (ie.. the 'World of Warcraft' bit,) and offer allow more varied ways of approaching pve challenges. Limit the cost of switching between these builds.
So i get more powers and more options and more builds... okay, i would like that i guess.  But would it be any different then saying "these for pve, these for pvp"  You can argue they will be totally balanced and work out so you can be functional wherever, but i'd like to point out that with 3 talent trees blizzard still has trouble doing this for each class.  So seriously if everyone were to gain 2 more talent trees, or 20 new spells, it would just result in the exact same thing as before, only this time when i press 4 instead of a fireball, i get a  Molten ball... 
The issue is, how do you add new content without making the old obsolete or making the content only for the elite.  If they add 10 new 70 5 mans are they going to be after heroic 5 mans for loot? if so why go to kara when you can just do 5 mans, or the heroic version instead of going to gruul or ssc?  Since they would have to be big enough upgrades for people to farm through.  But people would have to gear up in 5 mans, then do more 5 mans for the next tier, heroics are already hard enough to get groups for, another tier above that?  How much "fun" would that be?
And if they were just simply another option instead of the current 5 mans, sure they would be fun to do at first, but then we'd all just go jump into kara ZA gruul etc and get the real gear.  And 25 mans bring another issue, the tier armors are already all distributed, are there going to be another set of gear of equal strength but with different distribution, would the casual gamer want to run it in addition to the already sufficient instances and gear?  And if they are better items at the same difficulty would anyone do the old ones?  And if they are just higher then the black temple they would go unseen by the masses and blizzard doesn't want to have a xpac that wouldn't appeal to anyone but the top 5%.
At the same time, the gap between the top and the bottom of the gear scale will become so distant that pvp would be even more inaccessable to newcomers and guilds would not be as willing to gear someone up, unlike the days of the 40 man, i don't see taking 5 people in greens through gruul, ssc, mag, hyjal, black temple, etc especially if it's the mt or the top dps/healers which need replacing.
The way wow is designed that to add 14(28) 5 mans,  1 10 man, 5 25 mans without increasing the upward scale, LET ALONE a entire CONTINENT of content for only 70s, while making it all viable, all keeping the old content worth doing(only reason not to raise the level) would alienate players, break alot of content, add alot of worthless content, and frankly just be more reputation grinds.
- Introduce many more single or small group quests, which give the same level rewards as raid content.
Then why raid?  It's a honest question, you can't add solo/group content with the same rewards because its ALWAYS going to be easier, and less time consuming.  You honestly want to have to spend 50-200 hours per quest trying to do it solo/the same 5 people to get one piece of gear, when you can go into kara 3 times and come out with 6 epics.  You are asking for easy epics.  You can say, i just want something to do.  And the thing is, if all you wanted was stuff to do, then it wouldn't matter if the raiders were getting better gear, because you were still progressing on your own.
- In general, create a new philosophy whereby time invested leads to more options/variety, (and thrown in pets, funky-looking outfits, interesting tricks, titles, real estate etc etc) but not greater 'power' per se. As currently designed, there is no longer any point for someone like me, with a job and a child, to play this game, when I can simply never compete with people who don't.
Can you spend 2 hours in a single night to play?  if so, find a guild that raids when you get free time, and team with them then.  And even still, you don't have to be equal to still have stuff to do.  Have you done all the 5 mans? All the heroics, do you do dailies, have all the reputation?  finished all the quests etc.  If so, then make a new character or quit, you can't expect blizzard to cater the entire game to the casual games they are trying to do a mix for everyone,  some stuff take longer and are harder, and they have the better rewards, that's common sense isn't it?
- Use all the existing world in more interesting ways - offer PVP challenges (conquerable fortresses and so forth) across the whole World of Warcraft. I loved some of the original Azeroth zones, and would like to experience them again.
The thing is, the world wasn't designed for pvp, in wotlk theres a open pvp zone, with siege weapons etc.  It'll be a centered zone and fun.  Look at the silithus epl pvp, it's a absolute barren wasteland.  Why?  The same reason a capturable tower in badlands wouldn't make the zone a pvp zone. You level in it, you have world pvp in the azeroth zones, you had your fun.  Nobody would come back again to just do some little pvp.
In general, replace the concept of ever increasing power with inflation with every increasing variety, but of a similar level of power. It would still be fun to get new stuff, but allow the working Jo to enjoy the game on a competitive level as well.
Could this make as much money? Who knows. Maybe not - which is why it will not happen.
Would it make it a better game? To my mind, undoubtedly.
In a new game your ideas could work, but wow simply isn't designed that way.  If everything is made so the guy who can only spend 0-20 hours a week to be competitive, the people who play 20-100 hours a week will STILL get there first.  And get everything else first as well.  You will still take longer then them, and they still will be ahead of you.   There HAS to be upward progression.  Nobody would raid for 200 hours to get a different colored fireball, or a heal that makes a ZZZZZZIIIP sound instead of a SWOOOSH
 

 

Volkmar

that is the "magic the gathering" route and is effectivly succesful considering the success of the card game and the increase in size of the mother corporation, WoTC.

Add more and more options while keeping the same general power level, I would dare say it would actually work quite well, I think Guild Wars achieve this.

Honestly, I actually think it would be a better idea than the current. old dungeons would remain viable, new dungeons could still be made... but... how much variety is too much variety?

Look at MtG. they have now gazzillions expansions, millions of different cards but you can still use only 60 in your deck. it makes you feel that you are missing out on so much and makes decks much more specialized than generalists. (you feel this a lot in their rpg, D&D that they treated like same, with ever increasing feats and classes with each supplement withouth actually changing the overal power or the options available to each class)

So I think both approaches would have some bad points, but on the overall, I would appreciate more the OP Idea, why don't you try to put it on Blizzard suggestion forums?

markyturnip

Yes, guild wars does take this approach... and for pvp is great fun... but does not offer anything like the scope of WoW, nor the sense of a shared massive and varied world. Other games have a similar philosophy...

I guess I like the idea of balancing two ideas

a) Time invested leads to fun reward

b) Everyone who has invested a certain amount of time can compete on a relatively even playing field.

These two may seem contradictory, but the 'more variety' rather than more power can work, I believe.

An interesting approach in fps is Call of Duty 4. They are developing a perk system... and weapon upgrades.. which you earn as you play more and achieve certain goals.

These perks and upgrades can be pretty useful, and there are combinations that make them even more so. And yet, a brand new player with the most basic array of options can still compete, perhaps at a slight disadvantage, but none that negates the fundamental fact that a more skilled player will beat a less skilled player.

Is this a lasting strategy in an MMO? Who knows.. it is not the Wow route, and wow is the most successful game yet. Does that mean this can't work... hmm... I think it can.

Consider, for example, the rare mount drops. Now, having a tiger as opposed to a horse may not make you run any faster (therefore equal power), but it sure has bragging rights attached. So let the hard core raiders get their really cool flying spider mount or whatever.. just make it so the more casual player can still have a shot.

 

Offer different colours or effect for the same spell... maybe you can earn a drop where your moonfire becomes a giant flame from the sky... I think that would be a great reward, but again, would not make it impossible for others to compete.

The advantage for the hardcore player is his/her toon will become way more flexible, more able to deal with a wide variety of situations... but they would not be impossible to kill by dint of having impervious armor etc.. just a lot more difficult to surprise, in effect.

 

 

 

 

markyturnip

Originally posted by Bladin



The thing is, the world wasn't designed for pvp, in wotlk theres a open pvp zone, with siege weapons etc.  It'll be a centered zone and fun.  Look at the silithus epl pvp, it's a absolute barren wasteland.  Why?  The same reason a capturable tower in badlands wouldn't make the zone a pvp zone. You level in it, you have world pvp in the azeroth zones, you had your fun.  Nobody would come back again to just do some little pvp.

 What if you could paint a captured tower in your guild's colors? Would that make for a fun reward?