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the real deal with ddo
scottishgoth
Member Posts: 27
Ok first off I want to say I am not working for some marketing company or some crap like that. I am just a regular gamer and have been since the first day of ultima online. So here is the real deal with ddo. I started ddo in beta and have been playing ever since I still have a current account but I am thinking about dumping it. When I started out I made a few friends
it was easy with the integrated voice chat. You can really do more with that than any other mmo I have ever played. Its really nice. The grafics are amazing compared to other mmos. If you look at wow and doo side by side you really can see how amazing the game was put together. Some of the dungeons are really amazing as well. You can totally tell that a lot of though was put into them. I really was a bit surprised that they didnt take off the shelf modules and make them into dungeons on the game but they did a good job with the ones they have.
But on the other hand
ddo is way more like a out of the box game than a mmo. You dont really get any support from turbine at all. In game support is a total joke. If you have a problem the answer you usually get is well go out of the dungeon and start over. They claim to fallow d&d 3.5 rules but they really dont. but I think the biggest problem is that they have very very very little content. There is nothing there to keep the game interesting. You can easily go to max levels very fast depending on who you group with. But after that its a grind
you run the same dungeons over and over looking for items. Nothing really changes at all. Its kinda boring after a while. When I started I made a few friends like I said but today almost all of them have ether gone back to wow or totally just gave up on mmo gaming. The idea of ddo was great. The way it was pulled off wasnt. I really do hope that one day turbine does do something with ddo but I really dont see that happening. This last week they merged there servers taking groups of three and making them one server. This was due to low populations on most of the servers. The down side is that by doing so they forced a lot of people to loose items and change there characters names. When I logged on last night I saw two more of my friends had quit the game because they had to change names of characters that they have had for over a year.
I guess what I am trying to get across is
ddo was a darn good idea and I really wish they would have pulled it off better. I wish the project was given to like sony or blizzard or someone that really knows mmos and not a new company that has obviously not been able to make it work. With server populations falling every day and limited new content on the rise if you are looking for an mmo this is probably not the one you want to look at.
Comments
I agree with you on most of your points. I have been running a 10 day trial passing the time waiting for a beta entry in a couple of games. The problem is not so much the game as it holds as true to the d20 rules as I think an MMO can. The problem is that the d20 system does not lend itself well to online gaming. 20 levels is just not enough to have a feeling of progression that most people need in MMOs. They compensated this by making leveling far too easy. In 7 days I have hit lv 7 which is 1/2 way to the current level cap (14).
The only way to pull D&D off is an environment that has a two tiered system. You need to have players and DMs. There needs to be a system where customers can make their own content and "run" their players through adventures. That seems more of a NwN type game rather then an MMO.
What they should do is scrap the d20 mechanics and level system but keep the IP intact. Make a dragonlance, greyhawk, or forgotten realms MMO using the lore and class system. Bump the levels up to 60 - 80 and have a more open MMO feel.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Turbine isn't a new company, they were around with AC about the time Sony did EQ1, so other than UO, they're one of the oldest MMO companies out there.
The reasons why D&D absolutely *cannot* work in what we expect in our traditional MMOs are many, and when you get to the nitty-gritty and actually think about the design as a designer not a player who wants an EQ experience with D&D rules, you see that Turbine's hand was forced -- there's no way to really do it at all, the D&D rules prohibit any type of reasonable open world experience. I'm perfectly fine with what Turbine has done, but what I'd like to see *in addition* to Turbine's monthly content updates is to release as an optional download, a user version of their toolkit so we could create our own dungeons, complete with scripting. If someone is so inclined, they can take the time and effort to build a dungeon (or wilderness area), texture it, populate it, script the DMText and perhaps a little AI as well and place an instance portal somewhere in Stormreach that triggers user-created dungeons. Either let us download custom dungeons the way we do FPS maps, or submit the dungeons for Turbine's approval and include them in content updates. Content takes a long time to develop and complete and with each quest in DDO being a hand-crafted dungeon or wilderness area, there's only so much in the game. Granted, I'm not really complaining myself -- I started playing around May 1st but only once a week so my highest character just hit level 5. Prior to Module 4.2 DDO had grown 60% since release which isn't bad, and next month's update gives 11 more dungeons. Just think what Turbine *plus* the users could do.
ok you totally sound like you work for turbine… but you made my point. They are looking at the game from the point of view of a developer and not the player. They are trying to make a game that works with a development team and forgetting that if they want to keep a game going they need to keep players playing. The D&D rule set does not in any way prohibit you from making a world and for anyone to say that is just silly. D&D was based on “limitless imagination” and those are garys own words. The game was designed to let the world be limitless you can go anyplace and do anything. You don’t have to try and fit it into a box. The problem is that turbine tried to look at the game from the wrong direction. Now I started playing the game in alpha then kept playing in beta then did the prerelease and I still have an open account. The game has not changed much since day one. They have added a lot of content but all of the content they have added is nothing like the content at server release. Also they did grow in the first few months but since then the numbers have dropped dramticly. Heck they even merged servers two weeks ago due to lack of numbers on some servers. After the server merge during the day you can still find less than 100 online players. Compare that to other mmos and you will see DDO is not a very popular game currently. Now you say it would have been impossible to make the game like pen and paper… so then why was never winter nights able to do it far better than DDO?
Tell me how to incorporate those aspects from DDO ruleset into open world.
There is huuuge difference if someone do his character right or wrong. The number of options in customization is infite and you may end up with completely useless character or as well uber killer. There is no way to tweak the rules other then removing most of the multiclassing rules and feats or even ability development to avoid this issue. There would be hundreds of kids crying about how their character is weak in compare to the guys that know DD ruleset.
I really could continue with this list giving hundreds of examples why DD is just NOT possible to implement for open world MMORPG with lots of soloing options or PVP fights. I can't imagine the end-game of such a game when most of the players would be level 20 killing everything with just one spell or doing whatever they want with Wish spell. Or timestopping like mad or whatever.
REALITY CHECK
Thanks Thillian, someone like you who actually still plays D&D can come up with more precise examples than I can of why D&D (and 99% of *any* PnP RPG) simply WILL NOT work in an open world MMORPG without tossing out a large part of the PnP ruleset.
What I always see from the flamers, trolls, whatever you wanna call 'em such as our OP is "waaah waaah this isn't like the D&D I play," "this could be so much better," blahblahblah.
You're right, it isn't like the D&D you play. Guess what? Your D&D isn't like the D&D I played either. My D&D isn't like the D&D the group at the local comic/RPG shop plays. That's where the "limitless imagination" comes in.
If it could be "so much better" then by all means, tell us how. Explain, in detail, how *precise* D&D rules will work in the open world (I don't care which D&D setting) setting we would all like it to. Good luck with that one.
Ok here we go..
Level 7 wizard or cleric can kill anyone with one spell… yes that is why it is so damn hard to make it to level 7 as a wizard in D&D. but in D&D players and monsters have both saving throws and spell resistance that he would have to get through. Also in D&D it takes a long time to cast a spell like this then once he is done he is drained for a shot time… so if his target makes his save or the spell doesn’t get past the resistance… the wizard is dead.
Level 15 wizard can kill all players and creatures in his vision. If you look at players handbook I think you will see that you are overstating a bit. The distance isn’t that far but this is true in the same way as the previous spell.
Level 9 wizard can teleport yes and what is the problem with this… is it an advantage yes and again that’s why its hard to level as a wizard.
Level 11 cleric an heal all health, disease, poison and debuffs with one spell… I don’t know if you are reading that spell correctly… it says cures 10 points per level, all diseases and mental conditions. That’s it… doesn’t say anything about poison or debuffs.
The level 3 wizard or cleric stun… what in the hell are you talking about? I just looked over the 3.5 spell list and there is not a spell at first or second level.
Yes and that is better than a mana system it works in never winter nights so why cant it work here.
Level 1 barb /fighter killing 30 times faster? But you just said… never mind you’re an idiot…
Level 17 wizard can cast wish… now yes wish is a powerful spell or at least I can be but like most DMs turbine should make wish a very tricky spell to master with sometimes very dangerous and unexpected effects.
Level 17 wizards time stop man do I love this spell but it also has limits and an area of effect would be in place.
Ok… so… “There is a huuuge difference if someone do his character right or wrong.” Now sure what you where going for with this… really not sure if that is even English… but the reality of the game is that if you are trying to make a D&D game and not a “D&D like” game you have to be ready for limitless options. Turbine was not going to attract people not familiar with D&D to this game out of the box. Also I don’t want to have a build that is the same as every other build. I am not trying to make my character just like every other character out their. Gary himself said the game was about limitless imagination. So if turbine was not prepared to do that they should have passed on the challenge.
Level 7 cleric or wizard with phantasmal killer spell can kill a target if it doesnt save its saving throw. If you max out your intelligence and pick feats spell focus illusion and greater spell focus. The chance that each save is failed is like 65-80%. Aye it is true if the creep resists the spell the wizard would be dead in a few rounds. But is that the type of combat you want to have? Letting the system do the rolls that differs if you live unharmed or die instantly...? I don't.
level 15 can kill with power word kills, level 17 can kill with weird spell, or there are like 5 others I don't remember all of them. They are also spells save or die. And im not talking yet about maze that has no spell save and it just take target out of combat for even a few hours if your intelligence is too low. Then what about imprisonment spell that also have no spell save.
level 11 cleric heal's spell heals 10/per level which is in 90% cases full heal.
level 9 wizard teleport. You dont find this a bit too strong in open world?
level 1barb/fighter/pally with 18 strength and some decent armor has around 80% chance to hit most of the level 1 creatures (varies from 70-90%) and kills in one hit. Most of the level 1 creatures have like 4-8 hit points and 18 strength gives +4 damage bonus (+6 for 2 handers). This is surely enough if you add it to weapon damage which ranges from 1-10 to 2-12. Lets look at bards. They have lower AC, they have worse attack bonus. If you give them 18 strength they still have lower attack bonus and lower AC. Whereas barbarians fighter get rage/feats each level, bard is able to sing and cast spells so he must have a decent charisma and that is not possible to achieve if you want to have 18 str. Well 30 times faster was maybe an exaggaration but I hoped you got the point.
Level 3 wizard lvl 3 cleric can stun. Stun I meant messmerize. Even level 1 wizard can cast Color Spray, Sleep, Cause fear all those spells are the save or stun type. At level 3 the spell list increases by a another 5 spells like Fear, hold person, ..
You are making fun of my english, well its not my native language. If you can use my language as I use yours, then you would have a right to make fun of it.
REALITY CHECK
dude... i really dont think you have really played D&D pen and paper... all of the spells you are talking about look great on paper but in practice they are really not that uber. one thing you are totaly forgetting about is casting time the other is regs. if you try to cast sleep on a charging barb at level 3 you are going to be dead before you can get the spell off. you cant get moble spell casting at level 3 which makes just about every spell you are talking about useless. by level 7 yes you get some great spells and if you have a good build you can get most of them off but then you are still dealing with casting times and now some hard to come by regs. o by the way a cleric doesnt get PK... then you talk about things at level 15 and 17 if you are able to make it to level 15 or 17 as a wizard which is VERY hard in pen and paper you need those spells look at the kinds of stuff you will be fighting try casting power word kill on a dragon then tell me about how powerfull you are. kuz here is how that would play out... first round you would start casting... second round you are still casting... round three you are now dead... eaten by the damn dragon. not to mention most wizards are also makers they make wands and pots and consturcts. do you have any idea on how much XP that costs... yea you may make level 15 or 17 but after a few days of making you are back at level 7 again. what i would recomend is that you sit down and READ the players handbook not just skim over it.
Hold Person (2nd spell level, which means possible to cast on 3rd level)
It is actually not only 'stun' - in Pen&Paper you can kill somebody under Hold Person spell in next round with coup de grace.
From 3rd level onwards you are in the world of 'save or die'. It gets more explicit with higher levels, but it starts there.
For higher levels Cloudkill, Circle of Death and Symbol of Death can be used for mass kills.
Anyway, if somebody wants to have 'true' D&D, think about wizard casting Dominate on fellow PC and orders him "Hand over all magic items"... not going to happen.
Don't worry rev - In DDO a held target gets critical hits rather than opening up a coup de grace option - but the criticals are pretty much effective...
someone had mentioned using dual-wield picks... one of our clerics was also an archer and the *3 critical on her longbow meant she was clearing enemy casters so quick that even "freshen the air"( a fairly unpleasant scenario that finds most players drawn into a "blind" of enemy casters) was a .. breeze.
But hey; clearly there are some real differences between DDO and PnP D&D - ultimately you have to decide if the game as it stands is worth playing.
Rev mentioned dominate - i pointed out elsewhere how convenient it was that only Player Characters can use Charm Person...
that would be so cool if mobs could cast charm person on players! would be a lot more like real D&D but if DDO wants to be D&D it has a LONG way to go.
Dear Goth:
Yeah I posted elsewhere that when i was still playing; 1/2 complained it was too hard; 1/2 too easy - different experiences had set up different expectations.
You know people would throw FITS if their characters got charmed - and it wouldn't be very fun gameplay to be out of action for an indeterminant length of time.. but it would seem only logical if for that reason you take it from NPC's; you would also take it from the players for balance...
Nevermind all the conditions and modifiers to charm person over different editions - as it stands in DDO :quite powerful for a 1st level spell.
I realize no game can make everyone happy - but my opinion was; not just with that "imbalance" but in many ways, the difficulty of the game had been compromised for players used to MMO's where they were in far less danger than in games I am used to...
One of my frustrations while playing was many - MANY of the players i saw thought that rather than improving their play - tactics or teamwork; their solution was to buy or twink gear that "shouldn't" be available to their level; and overpower rather than outmanuever.
again - a matter of expectations of "should be" - when i played PnP; we almost always were in situations or "dungeons" where head to head; we would have been overwhelmed: fighting EVERYTHING just wasn't an option.
maybe its even moreso a matter of what people look for - some like being underdogs; some like to have the ego-stroke of being POWERFUL...
My point was; sorry; i think these were as much concious design decisions to not alienate the customer base as anything else.
but you see that is the point... if you are in a party and you rush in and get charmed or held or whatever your other party members should be right there to help you out. as it sits right now the game is not very chalanging for how little content there is. if the dungeons took longer to complete due to being harder it wouldnt matter as much that there isnt so much content. it would take you months to get 2k favor instead of two weekends. now yes you would piss a few people off that are not very good players but as we all know turbine has no problem with that at all. also... your coment about equiptment you are totaly right it is way overpowered. there is no way in hell that at level 14 i should have half the crap i have on my current chars. +5 full plate should be rare not a crapy drop. hell anything +5 should be rare. not to mention my +3 holy burst pure good cold iron war hammer that i have had for almost a year now. how in the hell should i have this at level 10? shouldnt be possible... but thats ddo for you. i am just thinking with harder dungeons it would at least make the game chalanging... you know ddo kinda reminds me of taking a darksun char into regular AD&D 3.0 or letting you take a drow out of the underdark and let him keep all of his equiptment. if you remember all drow equiptment should turn to dust when exposed to sunlight... like i said DDO has a long way to go if it really wants to be D&D
"it would take you months to get 2k favor instead of two weekends. "
Dude, you get more ridiculous all the time. Can you reach the level cap in two weeks? (not weekends, but weeks) sure.
Can you get to 2k favor in two weekends? Nope, not even close.
Oh, and this? "+3 holy burst pure good cold iron war hammer"...
Again, imaginary.
Please just stop, you look ridiculous now.
EDIT: one more thing, quit reading old school rules like drow stuff disintegrating in sunlight. Seriously man, you're just laughable at this point.
dude it is easy to level cap in two weekends... and 2k favor... are you kidding no problem at all. look you keep talking crap but who in the hell are you? if you want to show your stuff meet up with me in game and i will prove how much of a dumbass you are. i play blayhill on the ghalanda server stop in and say hi that is... unless you are as i know you are TOTALY FULL OF SHIT. do you even know what D&D is?
Well gee superhero, it's easy enough to prove, no?
Forget the 2 weekends, I bet you can't post Blayhill having 2000 favor with 2 YEARS under his belt, and I know you can't post a screenshot of your imaginary weapon you just described.
So who's full of it kiddo?
EDIT" one last thought, until you do post a screenshot of your imaginary weapon that would be ML 16 and your 2000 favor that you don't have, let alone accomplished in 4 days...can you let the big people talk?
"+3 holy burst pure good cold iron war hammer that i have had for almost a year now."
BTW, this is still making me actually laugh out loud. You were doing so well slamming the game on your B.S. that you may have been OK, but then you have to completely invent a weapon that you don't have, have never had, has never existed in the game???
just sad little gothic kid. Don't you have black to wear and a sunday school class to say "BOO" at or something?
I just want to make sure this stays and you don't edit it LOL!
I will say this though, you certainly have the imagination for D&D. Does your imaginary girlfriend have a similar weapon?
like i said show up or punk out... that is... if you really play ddo which i dont think you do... want to tell us which chars you play and on which servers? no... didnt think so.
Formerly Aerenal, Now Sarlona.
Lucienz: 14th level drow fighter
Jacienz: 14th level human bard
Merlinz: 14th level drow wizard
Valienz: 10 paladin/2 rogue/2 fighter
Padreno: 5 cleric
noobalicious.
DELETED
DELETED
I won't antagonize anymore, I'll just wait for the screenshots.
If you're struggling, www.imageshack.us will host your screen and to find it when you take it look in your docoments/dungeons and dragons folder.
Surely you can at least post the 2000 favor or the +3 holy burst cold iron warhammer of pure good with an ML of 10.
OOPS, one last edit, though an interesting one. You said you got this a year ago on your level 10, right? Interesting, since the CAP was level 10 (at best) a year ago. Quest chests drop level-3 loot (in other words, a level 10 quest, on elite, being level 12 drops at best minimum level 9 items).
Um...liar...liar...pants on fire. So who's the marketing guy jackass?
Do you even play DDO?
Come on man, the sun is still up where you are. Surely you've fired up photoshop and at least attempted to lie by now. What happened, did your folks come home and make you sit down for a family meal? Eat some green beans for me.
God, I just wasn't able to read this non-formatted chaos that tries hard with its first sentence to convince me that I never played D&D pen and paper.
REALITY CHECK
LOL...I wouldn't worry about it too much Thill, it's become pretty clear that Goth is hear to slam the game...but may not even actually play it, and even if he does is definitely 100% dishonest about it
hmmmn.. was wondering whatever happened to this thread...
flames start to make me uneasy after awhile b/c i suppose i forget its just online...
So i take it those 2 never met in pvp and got smacked up by the existance-contested hammer? you do agree i assume that DDO has some ..interestingly-named items which if that was hyperbole is what i assume he was illustrating?
anyway; thats not the first time; i believe; those two have had words
what did come out of it other than that was i read vincenz's review of DDO and felt it was pretty accurate.
I also appreciated the quest chests drop level -3 : i didnt realize it was that specifically; but have spoken on the issue before - thanks for clarifying it for me. Even when I was still playing no one gave me that specific information (not to say i'm challenging it; sounds 'bout right).
Anyway; myself I had things i both enjoyed and disliked about the game - but what I for one disliked the MOST was that I felt it took a beating for daring to try ANYTHING different from the cookie-cutter "sacred cow" MMO tried-and-true (TIRED and USED) standards... at the same time that everyone SAYs they're tired of the same ol' game.