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Who hates freedom ?
Razorback
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 5,253
We constantly hear that so called terrorists "hate freedom" and "hate democracy and justice".
Yet this week an Australian (Indian born) doctor who is in all other respects what anyone would describe as a model citizen, has been held for 7 days and counting without charge. This is more or less unprecedented in Australia and could not have happened except for the new anti terror laws.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22009081-952,00.html
The point of my post is that I just boggle at the dualistic notions we are presented with in western democracies when we hear :
"We will not let our way of life be altered by these terrorists"
followed shortly aftter by :
"we are changing the laws (thus our way of life) to reduce the presumption of innocence and allow for detention without charge".
I was listening to a former CIA agent who postulated that the reason people like doctors are attracted to the ideology of groups like Alqieda is that they see a duplicity in western society perpetuated by governments that preach freedom and yet march across the globe reducing it at every turn.
The Australian defence minister had a very freudian slip this week when he said "oil was a reason for Australian troops being in Iraq".
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22027741-5005961,00.html
Little wonder the people perpetraing acts of terror feel like they are on the right track when western governments come out with stuff like this.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Comments
This proves that the terrorists are winning.
Terrorists never fight when the odss are even, they lurk in the shadows and they strike unseen in order to strike fear into people. If you can't directly attack the state, then attack the people, as the people are needed for a democratic state.
They scare the crap out of us in order to make us undo the very fabric of our democracy (without even knowing it) in order to defend...our democracy...ironic eh.
I usually try to avoid the cliche 'Europeans are better than Yanks' statements, but I hafta say that America is the weakest against this as American media relies mostly on sensationalism, thus making people even more paranoid. When the terrorists struck against New York, it was devestating, but in the big picture it wasn't that bad. However, the American people became so paranoid (thanks to the media) that innocent American arabs were being abused both verbally and physically, and George Bush came to and stayed in power thanks to this paranoia, promising a swift retaliation against the terrorists...in other words he snuffed out American rights, one by one.
Terrorist attacks in Europe, however, haven't been quite as effective, our news coverage jsut gave the bare facts. It didn't use Hollywood narrative and 'teh bad guys r winningz' music, and because of that, the Spanish and British people simply didn't care, we forgot about these attacks shortly after.
Strongly agree with all of that.
Terrorists use the western media to feed into the fear of the people and the machinations of the power seekers in government and sell us all out in the process.
I would actually go so far as to say that the media represents a far greater threat to freedom than the terrorists themselves because without the media the terrorists would be more or less impotent.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Totally, man. Our leaders claim to be fighting terror by putting more and more armed guards on our streets (martial law, anyone?) and snuffing out our rights, when really they should be regulating the media, forcing them to report only on the bare facts (and in some cases just ignore the terrorist threat altogether).
Yeah, Im pretty sure Bin Laden and Zawahiri cant believe how easy it is to get a global message happening with billions of dollars in free advertising to get people watching.
They must think we are a pack of prize dicks in this part of the world.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Exactly, after 9/11 the media was whipped into a frenzy and has been on a downward spiral ever since. Add Iraq daily death tolls and an obsession with celebrities and the media circus is complete.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Who hates freedom ?
This guy does. Wolfgang Schäuble, The current minister of the interior in Germany. One of the most conservative and authoritarian politicians in Germany.
He wants stuff like secret computer searches, camps ala Guantanamo for terrorist suspects/"threats", and killing of "threats". People are starting to refer to this guys politics as "Stasi 2.0".
A Graffiti of him.
The more we are forced to change our ways of life, the more the terrorists win.
Terrorism is simply another mechanism for government control, fear and paranoia keep people under control, terrorism causes fear, mass media allows the fear to spread. Terrorism and the laws that follow give governments unprecedented power to do almost anything (Iraq war anyone?).
O_o o_O
There is no "the terrorists"... Terrorism is a weapon, a tool. Like carpet bombing is. Imagine a "war on carpet bomding".
BTW, if the terrorists hated freedom then they'd go out of their way to bomb the netherlands.
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He doesn't hate freedom. . .
He loves power. Unfortunately the latter is much much more frightening than the former.
Eternally mine,
Keebs
The MMO gaming blog I write for.
Yeah and if you add to that the fact that my country (UK) helps the USA rub out all of these terrorists worst enemies in the middle east, giving people sympathetic to their cause a chance to take power. Also making the rest nervous that they're next on our shit list, if I was Osama I'd be pissing myself laughing watching the great Satan recruiting for me in the middle east whilst terrorising their own people and scaring the life out of them.
All that Blair ever did was get British soldiers killed and take away our rights because of his ego, and his dream of "A place in history". I was brought up during times that the IRA was killing people, I remember London being bombed when I was growing up there. I later had friends go to Northern Ireland and watch other squaddies get blown to pieces before their eyes. When it finaly ends this f***ing genius Blair decides to go to Afghanistan with that twat Bush and fights the Taliban and about 100 other crazy factions that are trying to convince Muslim kids in the middle east to die for them.
Given the choice I'd rather be blown to pieces by Osama than live my life under some goverment that has national security laws akin to a paranoid Stalinist state!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Reporting you guys to the FBI!
Teasing around!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I love a good conspiracy theory I view them as entertainment for the most part but as I look around the western world over the last 3 years I started to think something is going on. Every "liberal democracy" seems to be doing its best to take away our freedoms its seems more and more people are becoming blinded by the bullshit of the war on terror
I'm not sure what’s going on seems to me like we are standing at the top of an abyss ready to jump off holding a parachute that has a huge gaping hole in it. As cliché as its sounds I really do fear for our children.
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
We are watching the birth of the intergalactic empire. Isn't this how palpatine gained control of the senate?
yea with thunderus appluse lol
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
yea with thunderus appluse lol
I wouldn't mind seeing Darth Vader throw Bush into a reactor core!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Bush started a war because if the US gov. is spending all of its money financing a war then it can't spend money researching technology that could potentially take us away from being an oil dependant country.
Bush has incentives to keep the country from finding new energy sources, or making something like hydrogen (the most ubandant thing of any kind in the universe) power coste effective.
Imagine what the US could have done in the last, what is it now, 7 years, if we weren't at war?
The only thing Bush has been good at has been preventing research.
What are we doing as the most powerfull nation in the world? Crap.
Don't see China starting wars, and aren't they the fastest dev. country in the world?
Oh yeah. Feeling free and BEING free. Not the same thing. We only feel free in the US. Don't really care who's being locked up, and it's been a problem for longer then the current Bush.
Wish Darkfall would release.
I love when people state that the War on Terror is such a failure and that the War in Iraq is such a mess. Guess what it is working. There haven't been anymore attacks in the States. If you think they aren't trying then you are just plain wrong. A lot of the terrorists are too busy fighting now in the Middle East to plan attacks on our soil. In that regard the war has been a resounding success.
Too many people now adays think the first Persian Gulf War is how wars are. I am sorry but war isn't normally our troops coming across their troops and then their troops just surrendering instantly. WAR is bloody. The people that sign up for it should know what they are getting into. It is ridiculous that people can't see the justification to get rid of such horrible people in the WAR. Look at Iran. Their president is nothing more then a terrorist who wants to wipe away a group of people for existing. Maybe we would of been better off just napalming all of Afganistan and Iraq. At least then the US would be worthy of all the hate we receive.
I know my Grandfather's generation (WW2 generation) thought very low of this current generation that isn't willing to do the hard things to make the world a better place. That is part of what made America great. We had the "balls" to stand up to people. Now everyone doesn't like that.
Well then fine I say we withdraw all of our troops and all of our money from the world. Then we close our borders down using those troops. We then cancel and foreign trade and see how well the world can survive without the US. Because trust me the US can survive without the world.
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That's exactly what a war is. a conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation. Unfortunatly, we're trying to wage war on a concept. Terrorism is a strategy. Which means that we cannot effectively know what constitutes winning or losing. A "War on the Taliban" or "War on Al-Queada" could be measured. It's like the war on drugs or the war on obesity. Once again, the smarter strategy is to focus on why they hate us.
Would you like it if someone tried to force feed you spinach with a gun to your head? Isn't the basic premise of freedom free will? You cannot spread democracy at the barrel of a gun. And our arrogance doesn't help much.
Have you tried holding your breath first? After that, try learning a bit about world history and the state of foreign affairs.
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
1. We withdraw protect ourselves and spend time trying to show the ones not already brainwashed that we're not evil and we're actually trying to help them.
2. We withdraw do nothing and let them organize, once they organize and make themselves a known power we come in and crush them.
America can only beat countries Iraq fell in what? 3 days? America can beat almost every country on the planet easily, but since the terrorists aren't a country we can only move them around.
That last paragraph is the absolute most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. America lives off of foreign trade! Look at the back of you clothes, toys, games, computers, lamps, basically everything. How much comes from America? I think the world would do just fine without us, China would take our place and probably do a better job.
This guy was held in connection with the failed terrorist attacks in UK.
There were serious reasons to thing this "respectable doctor" was connected with other "respectable doctors"who tried to blow car bombs in Britain.
I am sure you will agree that Terrorism is a huge problem, there is a problem in leaving possible suspects free to go wherever they want.
This is a mistake no governement can afford to make.
Leaving a suspect free to carry a possible attack which can cause thousands of deaths, is a risk too big to take.
What it will happen if a suspect known to the secret services carries a terroristic attack which kill hundreds?
Can you imagine the deadlines on the papers the day after? : "Secrets services knew the identity of the bomber and didn't stop him"
How idiots we will all look like?
Of course is not nice for any innocent man to be detained for weeks without charge, but quite frankly I would very much prefer 1 person losing "his freedom" for 1 month, than hundreds of people losing their life.
The problem definitely seems to be lying with the media, sometimes I just can't believe the crap that manages to get onto the Television these days with the BBC and the like, if the terrorists had the ability to attack us directly then they would be a threat, if they're just trying to harass soldiers with bombs and mines and the like then it's obvious that they don't have the strength to overwhelm us. It clearly seems like they're committing themselves to a siege against us in the form of propaganda and Guerrilla tactics, the politicians are also to blame really, they need to get their acts together and start thinking like human beings should not just trying to rip each other apart, all the media seem to be doing in that part is escalating the whole situation.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
I could have swore that our grandfathers generation didn't support the war until Pearl Harbor. I believe that many americans were neither for, nor truelly against what Hitler was doing at the start of the war. You seem under the impression that the magority of the wold actually liked the Jews during that era. No, anit-semitism didn't start during WW2, it was around for quite a lot longer. Most christians and muslims didn't much like the jews then.
Since when does one person represent every person in a country?
We've already gone into Afganistan and Iraq, and it's not doing a thing to the President of Iran, except maybe garner him a little more support from middle eastern Muslims. So how exactly would napalming those two countries solve anything in Iran? And you're right. Iran is, and was, the bigger problem in the middle east then Iraq was. But Iran has an army, and less oil I believe. Bush also coudln't spin as spooky scarey backstory to gather support for invading Iran, Iran also wasn't crippled by a decade of economic sactions.
You really think the US can survive without the world? You do realize that we depend on the world, for most everything right. We aren't the leader in electronics, automobiles, fuel, textiles etc. etc. We're exporting entire workforces and importing most all of our goods; how exactly does that put us into a position of not needing the rest of the world?
I quess we could support ourselves by shopping.
Wish Darkfall would release.
The terrorists would be making a point if they were to try and assassinate political leaders instead of helpless civilians: I realize that the educational system in the middle east is so ridiculously horrible that it makes ours look like Finland's, but it's no excuse to kill somebody that is not related to the conflict.
Terrorists must either be sadistic people that deserve to die, or stupid enough to believe that the populace has control over it's government: All the terrorists are doing is adding more fuel to the fire by killing people that were actually against the war in Iraq and oblivious to the seizure methods employed by the U.S. that are sugarcoated or hidden by the government controlled media.
I can't blame Australia for doing what it has done: It's just a preventative measure that should really be employed by all civilized nations at the moment given the ubiquity of Islam and the societal breadth of it's followers; Al-Qaeda is getting it's hands on more educated people (for some reason) whether it be by indoctrination or wealth from Iran.
I hate freedom when it's given to lunatics and idiots that don't deserve it.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
It's not their goal to kill people. Well yes it kinda is, but it's more like a byproduct. Their goal is to create fear. And they have found out that killing innocent people, is a great method. I don't think assassination attempts of politicians would have the same effect at all.
A few points I'd like to make:
1) Al-Qaeda isn't a centrally run organisation. It's cell-based. If not, it wouldn't be a terrorist organisation.
2) Al-Qaeda has a POLITICAL and ECONOMICAL agenda, not and IDEOLOGICAL agenda.
3) Currently the US government is acting 110% like any terrorist organisation would want it to.
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