Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by Coldmeat
You're still making the hiring process about race. While I may not be black, I'd like to think that were I, I would have enough pride to want to be hired for my qualifications, and not to fill some bullshit arbitrary PC quota so that people that like to throw around words like diversity, and equality can feel satisfied, even though doing so doesn't promote diversity, or equality. Edit: And were I, as a white male, to get hired to a position in a predominantly black company as part of some asinine "diversity" ploy, it's not somewhere I would stay at for long. Because I would know, and so would everyone else, that I was just the token white guy. I wouldn't suddenly gain some secret insight into what it's like to be black any more than the overall populace would suddenly welcome me with open arms, invite me to parties, and so on... You can't force diversity, or understanding, on to people. If it doesn't happen of it's own accord, organically, then it's phoney. And in my opinion, that makes it not only pointless, but counterproductive, as it is more likely to cause resentment.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview.... you would NOT want to be hired... you're a fool if you are soooo stuck in policy and Political Correctness if you can't see how having someone of a different ethnicity can be enriching to EVERYONE else around you..
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job... And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
white man#1: Do white men have an advantage? white man#2: Nah we dont.. i never got an advantage white man#3: Yeah we dont have an advantage... white man#2: at a previous company where there were 200 white people and 5 other ethnicities... They fired me because They said they needed to hire a hispanic guy... totally not fair at all for white men.... White man#4: yeah.. one time I applied for a scholarship and I didn't get it ... I bet they gave it to a minority instead... White man#5: Yeah I hate that.. I mean.. I live in beverly hills and have two cars.. But I still deserve a scholarship more than the Mexican who lives in a 2 bedroom house with 12 people if I do better in my SAT's.. FOR DAMN SURE white man#6: Yeah totally.. White man#1: yeah.... totally.. and I hate that ALL black people glamorize thug life and rap.. black guy#1: you know all black people aren't like that right? Not ALL of us glamorize Thug life and rap and hip hop white guy#3: YOU DONT SEe white guys glamorizing THE KKK!!!!!!
Great thread guys..
Yeah...how about this.
White guy: I didn't have a privileged life.
Politically correct zealot: You're such a lier. You're white therefore privileged.
White guy: No really, I don't remember ever having anything handed to me or getting any special treatment. And my family wasn't wealthy.
Politically correct zealot: Just because you don't REMEMBER it doesn't mean it didn't happen. People were probably slipping 50 dollar bills into your pockets when you weren't looking.
White guy: Um......
Zealot: Yeah! See! You got nuthin to say about that do you! Prove to me that people DIDN'T slip money into your pockets when you weren't looking! Prove it!
White guy: Look, let's just get to the crux of the matter. If it's wrong to discriminate against non-whites then isn't it also wrong to discriminate against whites? Discrimination is either wrong or it's not wrong. You can't have it both ways.
Zealot: But whites deserve to be discriminated against so it isn't really discrimination. It's just evening the score. If you hadn't discriminated against minorities so much it wouldn't have to be this way.
White guy: I never have discriminated against minorities.
Zealot: LIER!!!! Even if you personally never have, you are still white and therefor are complicitly implicated in the oppression, subjugation, explotation, defamation, and general unhappiness of everyone in the world. You are also responsible for my 2nd cousins' jock itch and the time I stubbed my toe when I was eleven.
White guy: .........ok. How do I respond to that?
Zealot: YOU DON'T! That's just the problem! You don't want to respond to your sins by repaying your debt to society! So you should be FORCED to pay!
Christ Methane, you talk like all white people are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Like white guys can go to some secret "white privilege" organization and have money, degrees, jobs, and pretty much anything they want just handed to them.
In my earlier post I wasn't talking about the grand scheme of things I was just talking about my own personal experience. I KNOW I haven't gotten any special advantages from being white. And if anyone tells me I have they don't know what the fuck they are talking about because they didn't live my life. I'm not whining about how tough my life has been I'm just saying that I was never handed anything on a silver platter just because I'm white.
You're still making the hiring process about race. While I may not be black, I'd like to think that were I, I would have enough pride to want to be hired for my qualifications, and not to fill some bullshit arbitrary PC quota so that people that like to throw around words like diversity, and equality can feel satisfied, even though doing so doesn't promote diversity, or equality.
Edit: And were I, as a white male, to get hired to a position in a predominantly black company as part of some asinine "diversity" ploy, it's not somewhere I would stay at for long. Because I would know, and so would everyone else, that I was just the token white guy. I wouldn't suddenly gain some secret insight into what it's like to be black any more than the overall populace would suddenly welcome me with open arms, invite me to parties, and so on...
You can't force diversity, or understanding, on to people. If it doesn't happen of it's own accord, organically, then it's phoney. And in my opinion, that makes it not only pointless, but counterproductive, as it is more likely to cause resentment.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview.... you would NOT want to be hired... you're a fool if you are soooo stuck in policy and Political Correctness if you can't see how having someone of a different ethnicity can be enriching to EVERYONE else around you..
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job...
And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLYQUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
NOW RE READ my response.. AND REMEMBER THAT I"M SAYING IF YOU AND THE OTHER PERSON AREEQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUALEQUAL EQUALEQUAL
SHEESH...
IF YOU were a hiring manager and you needed a 60 watt bulb... two bulbs were interviewed but one casted red light and the other casted blue light... BUT BOTH WERE EQUALL IN THAT THEY WERE BOTH JUST AS BRIGHT!!!! Would you hire the Blue one or the Red one.. and WHY?!?!
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
You're still making the hiring process about race. While I may not be black, I'd like to think that were I, I would have enough pride to want to be hired for my qualifications, and not to fill some bullshit arbitrary PC quota so that people that like to throw around words like diversity, and equality can feel satisfied, even though doing so doesn't promote diversity, or equality.
Edit: And were I, as a white male, to get hired to a position in a predominantly black company as part of some asinine "diversity" ploy, it's not somewhere I would stay at for long. Because I would know, and so would everyone else, that I was just the token white guy. I wouldn't suddenly gain some secret insight into what it's like to be black any more than the overall populace would suddenly welcome me with open arms, invite me to parties, and so on...
You can't force diversity, or understanding, on to people. If it doesn't happen of it's own accord, organically, then it's phoney. And in my opinion, that makes it not only pointless, but counterproductive, as it is more likely to cause resentment.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview.... you would NOT want to be hired... you're a fool if you are soooo stuck in policy and Political Correctness if you can't see how having someone of a different ethnicity can be enriching to EVERYONE else around you..
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job...
And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLYQUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
NOW RE READ my response.. AND REMEMBER THAT I"M SAYING IF YOU AND THE OTHER PERSON AREEQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUALEQUAL EQUALEQUAL
SHEESH...
IF YOU were a hiring manager and you needed a 60 watt bulb... two bulbs were interviewed but one casted red light and the other casted blue light... BUT BOTH WERE EQUALL IN THAT THEY WERE BOTH JUST AS BRIGHT!!!! Would you hire the Blue one or the Red one.. and WHY?!?!
No I would choose the one that cost less. That is what makes the most business sense. I could care less what color they were. And then if they both cost the same I would choose which one was more flexible to work in the most areas, and if they were both willing to do that, then I would choose who was most personable in their interview. If by then they are still equal I would probably flip a coin to choose. I would never ever choose based on the color of their skin, because that adds nothing to the company's mission to make money. I could care less if my employees were experiencing other cultures. That is what their personal life is for. When they are at work, they need to work and be the most efficient workers possible to make the most money possible. That is how capitalism works.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Christ Methane, you talk like all white people are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Like white guys can go to some secret "white privilege" organization and have money, degrees, jobs, and pretty much anything they want just handed to them. In my earlier post I wasn't talking about the grand scheme of things I was just talking about my own personal experience. I KNOW I haven't gotten any special advantages from being white. And if anyone tells me I have they don't know what the fuck they are talking about because they didn't live my life. I'm not whining about how tough my life has been I'm just saying that I was never handed anything on a silver platter just because I'm white.
No I'm saying.. .If you got a group of Communists in a room and asked them what is the best form of government... what do you think they will say?
If you got a group of Democrats in the room and asked them What is the better party.. What do you think they will say?
If you got a group of Taliban suicide bombers in a room and asked them is America evil? what do you think they will Say?
This thread is retarded because a white man asks a question about whether or not other white guys think that they've been HELPED or are currently being helped in society due to their color..... And apparently anyone who has another opinion different to the group consensus (which is probably mostly white).. IS wrong...
This thread is stupid because some of you guys are closed to any opinion besides your own.. which also happens to be the opinion that best suits some of you.... You have not personally seen any privilage given to white folks because of color.. Therefore it must not exist..
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
No I would choose the one that cost less. That is what makes the most business sense. I could care less what color they were. And then if they both cost the same I would choose which one was more flexible to work in the most areas, and if they were both willing to do that, then I would choose who was most personable in their interview. If by then they are still equal I would probably flip a coin to choose. I would never ever choose based on the color of their skin, because that adds nothing to the company's mission to make money. I could care less if my employees were experiencing other cultures. That is what their personal life is for. When they are at work, they need to work and be the most efficient workers possible to make the most money possible. That is how capitalism works.
Diversity helps because of how people connect with others... I walk into a store.. and I see a salesman has on some Florida State University Memorabilia I instantly feel more comfortable talking to him or her.. because of the common bond of the school.
If I go into a hospital because my testicles burn or some crap... I will Most probably feel more comfortable talking to a male doctor than a female doctor.. because of the mere fact that he is a man and he has balls too..
Extending that out to race and ethnicity... People feel comfortable around others who have shared similar experiences..... So If I have a company.. and I know making that company more diverse can make me more money by attracting people of different creeds... Does that warrant diversity? I remember a telemarketer called me once... And when I heard her voice.. instantly i wanted to hear what she had to say.. because I heard the dutch accent... (i'm dutch) and i hardly see any dutch folks here.
But your point is WELL taken though... Thank god someone finally doesn't think I'm just attacking them or something..
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Personally I have a sense of distrust towards my countrymen and women. This is 100% because of past experiences. I also have the feeling that I can learn more from people that are different from me.
To answer the initial question: Yes, I'm very priveledged to be white. If it weren't for that I'm sure I would've been in prison a few times or wouldn't have gotten as much opportunities at school or whatever.
you do huh? but yet you can give no examples. sounds like opinion not fact to me.
Yeah, yeah. Every bit as factual as the pathetic-ass white boys blubbering about how their personal incompetence is actually because white boys are persecuted.
Actually, I don't see that so much. However, I do see a lot of blacks taking the victim role on for themselves quite willingly.
And to answer your statement about most posters being white. Yes I write white other non hispanic on forms etc. But that is only because I am such a mutt that it isn't even funny. My family came here around the time of the Mayflower. Our roots can be traced beyond that to England and beyond that to Germany. I have Lithuanian, Polish, English, German, Irish, American Indian, Russian, as my main background. Polish which I am about 60-70% wasn't even considered white enough by most "White Europeans" My next largest % is russian and then Irish, neither of which are considered "white" enough either.
I have never once gotten anything because of who I was born. Even though there is a publishing company with my last name (distant cousins though ) An investment Company with my last name (also distant cousins ) Even though my Great great great what ever number of greats uncle was a revolutionary war general, there is a congressman of distant relations, and heck my family is even related to the Kennedy clan since a great X a billion aunt married a Kennedy when we all still lived in Ireland. Heck one of my great uncles was a millionaire (from real estate) and the other was a boxing writer from Sport Illustrated (who have both died and I never met). I still have never gotten anything for free. One of my grandfathers was a school teacher and later a Principal. He was a WW2 hero who fought in both the Asian and European Campaigns. My Grandmother is a retired special education teacher. My other grandfather is retired from working for the county as a dump truck driver and my other grandmother was a house cleaner. I was never handed any inheritence(sp?) and I never was given a job just because of how I looked. I have worked at a Car Wash, then Burger King, Kmart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Phone Sales for computer Software, and now I am in the Military.
If I haven't gotten anything special with my birth I highly doubt anyone else is. (especially considering that there is a county in more then half a dozen states named after my family)
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
So... he says the color of the employees doesn't matter, and it's a point well taken... I say the color of the employees doesn't matter, and you make some 20 point font, multicolor spastic freakout. Ok, I give up. Are you just trying to fuck with me, or are you just stupid?
Well Its because he actually read what I wrote and give his opinion.. and reasons for why he disagrees
I said "equally qualified" many times.. and yet you responded saying that I would hire for color over qualification...
For him its "I understand what you are saying Meth but I disagree.. and here's what I think"
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
So... he says the color of the employees doesn't matter, and it's a point well taken... I say the color of the employees doesn't matter, and you make some 20 point font, multicolor spastic freakout. Ok, I give up. Are you just trying to fuck with me, or are you just stupid?
Well Its because he actually read what I wrote and give his opinion.. and reasons for why he disagrees
I said "equally qualified" many times.. and yet you responded saying that I would hire for color over qualification...
For him its "I understand what you are saying Meth but I disagree.. and here's what I think"
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that totally equally qualified employees only exist in your make believe dream world, I would hire the one that, after speaking with both, I felt was best suited to the job.
REGARDLESS OF THEIR FUCKING COLOR
I'd make it bigger for you, in the hopes that it settles in, but alas, it only goes to 25.
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some...
If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some...
And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it...
Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other...
And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views...
But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some... If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some... And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it... Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other... And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views... But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post.
To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company.
While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin.
Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs.
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some...
If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some...
And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it...
Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other...
And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views...
But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post.
To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company.
While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin.
Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs.
And yet all you buy are white lights...
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
The University of Michigan summarizes the case of a graduate student named Allan Bakke who was rejected not once, but twice from the Medical School of the University of California, even though his grades and test scores were better than most—if not all—of the admitted applicants. He was denied admittance because of his skin color. When he sued the school, the case made it all the way up to the Supreme Court in what is now widely known as Regents of the University of California v. Bakke. In a five-to-four decision, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Bakke. The accepted rationale was direct interpretation of the sixth article of the Civil Rights Act, which states that no person “shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjugated to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial insurance.” However, one might be surprised to learn that Allan Bakke was white. The university rejected his application twice because they wanted to meet a sixteen percent quota for Hispanics and African Americans that did not have adequate test scores that the school required for admittance. Allan Bakke was a victim of affirmative action. Many states are trying to remove acts of affirmative action from their institutions, in part due to situations like that of Bakke.
Affirmative action is typically common knowledge among most people today. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describes it as “positive steps taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.” However, the means to which they meet these ends has been the center of much controversy; specifically, in the case of preferential treatment. Christopher Edley, the White House assistant for the Clinton Administration, was given the task from 1994 to 1995 to review Clinton’s affirmative action policy. In his book, Not All Black and White: Affirmative Action and American Values, he states that almost all of his debates were based on the same hypothetical question: “Imagine a college admissions committee trying to decide between the white [son] of an Appalachian coal miner's family and the African American son of a successful Pittsburgh neurosurgeon. Why should the black applicant get preference over the white applicant?” Indeed, why? Surely the African American son of the neurosurgeon has, his whole life, experienced more advantages and privileges than the coal miner’s son. Now, the college should show preference to the African American because his race typically is left underprivileged? From a philosophical standpoint, it makes little sense. Justice cannot be circumvented for justice.
As Miriam Schulman, a professor from Santa Clara University, points out, the core controversy with affirmative action is about justice. Justice, at its heart, aims to instill a system that treats everyone entirely as equals. For example, the Jim Crow Laws violated this first basic premise of justice. Thurgood Marshal, the key Judge of the Supreme Court that ruled on the Brown v. Board of Education decision, has famously stated that “distinctions by race are so evil, so arbitrary and so invidious that a state bound to guarantee the equal protection of the laws must not invoke them in any public sphere.” Therefore, it is against the core principles of justice to favor one race over another. Justice demands that all people are treated equal. In a truly equal, color-blind society, affirmative action has no place. As Thurgood Marshal stated above, distinctions of race—any distinction, whether positive or negative (if one believes in “positive” and “negative” discrimination)—have no place in any public sphere.
This is, perhaps, put into a better picture by William Bradford Reynolds, who was the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights for the Reagan Administration. In the Yale Law Journal, he contended:
[T]o those who argue that we must use race to get beyond racism …[h]istory teaches us all too well that such an approach does not work. It is wrong when the government bestows advantages on whites at the expense of innocent blacks; it assumes no greater claim of morality if the tables are turned…. Whatever group membership one inherits, it carries with it no entitlement to preferential treatment over those not similarly endowed with the same immutable characteristics. Any compromise of this principle is discrimination, plain and simple, and such behavior is no more tolerable when employed remedially, in the name of “affirmative action” or “racial balance,” to bestow a gratuitous advantage on members of a particular group, than when it is divorced from such beneficence and for the most invidious of reasons works to one's disadvantage.
One might argue, however, that it is unfair to treat this topic that way. In the scope of justice exists “compensatory justice.” The rationale behind it is that the person wronged should receive some sort of compensation from the person that did the wrongs unto him or her. As another example, many proponents believe that affirmative action is a way for African Americans to receive reparations. Undoubtedly, African Americans have suffered a great deal in the course of the history of the United States. However, this type of rationale is not justified. As Schulman points out, a judge would be hard-pressed to tell a daughter of two [Irish] immigrants that she must now take responsibility for slavery.
Proponents would also argue that “the system” is currently in favor of white males. Using African Americans as yet another example, one could say that because of poor inner-city schools that African Americans are in, they have started off poorly, and therefore need a boost to compete with better-advantaged white students that come from more privileged schools. I find, however, that this is a case of improper remedy. The problem is a class issue, not a race issue. Having a remedy that aids those of a certain race neglects to address the issue of non-minorities in poor schools, and minorities in privileged schools. A proper remedy would be to target the source of the problem. We as a society need to help advance the communities and schools at the kindergarten through high school levels.
It is also arguable that institutions need to incorporate more minorities into the body. As Andrew Hacker pointed out in his book, Two Nations, “the number of black police officers rose from 24,000 to 64,000 and the number of black electricians, from 14,000 to 43,000." However, when I look at this, I don’t feel compelled to believe a good thing has necessarily happened. What about having more minorities in a workplace or university makes it better or more advantageous? Some may argue that there needs to be a wide variety of minds in place. I see this as wrong. To say that it is necessary to have a certain race to provide a different view on matters is inherently racist, and promotes the same “distinction of the races” that Thurgood Marshall explicitly condemns. Using quotas to meet these ends is in direct violation of justice. As another Supreme Court Judge—Clarence Thomas—once said, “I don't believe in quotas. America was founded on a philosophy of individual rights, not group rights.”
Not to mention, affirmative action in practice has actually been found to be very harmful to minorities. For example, as stated in an article by Katherine Mangan, “affirmative action hurts black law students more than it helps them by bumping applicants up into law schools where they are more likely to earn poor grades, drop out, and fail their states' bar exams.” The author of "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools,” Richard H. Sander, argues that ending racial preferences in law-school admissions would increase the number of black lawyers because it would help ensure that students attend law schools where they are more likely to succeed. His study goes on to say that ending affirmative action would increase the number of new black lawyers by 8.8 percent, because students would attend law schools where they would struggle less and learn more, earn higher grades, and have better success on the job market. Not to mention, good grades matter more to employers than the law school's prestige (Sander).
To say that affirmative action is a necessity to equality is untrue. The remedy is completely wrong. Affirmative action not only rejects the ideas of justice, a color-blind society, and equality; it embraces the idea that there needs to be a distinction between the races, and that we as a society need to act accordingly and treat some races with preferential treatment. In addition, it does so by means that make large sweeping generalizations and remedies that are not beneficial (in fact, some times harmful) to its ultimate goal. As bills are being proposed to end affirmative action in various states including California and Michigan, I see the beginning of a true path toward full equality and justice; one that does not require “an eye for an eye” justice. As Professor Schulman says, “Wouldn't it be better to create a vision of a society in which my good fortune did not mean your suffering?”
Works Cited
Edley, Christopher. Not All Black and White: Affirmative Action and American Values. New York: Hill and Wang, 1996.
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by Coldmeat
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by Draenor
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some... If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some... And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it... Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other... And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views... But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post. To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company. While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin. Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs. And yet all you buy are white lights...
you do huh? but yet you can give no examples. sounds like opinion not fact to me.
Yeah, yeah. Every bit as factual as the pathetic-ass white boys blubbering about how their personal incompetence is actually because white boys are persecuted.
Actually, I don't see that so much. However, I do see a lot of blacks taking the victim role on for themselves quite willingly.
I'm seeing it right here from whaaaambulance chasing white boys.
No one has ever denied the classic NYC cab test of racial equality yet.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Not to mention, affirmative action in practice has actually been found to be very harmful to minorities. For example, as stated in an article by Katherine Mangan, “affirmative action hurts black law students more than it helps them by bumping applicants up into law schools where they are more likely to earn poor grades, drop out, and fail their states' bar exams.” The author of "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools,” Richard H. Sander, argues that ending racial preferences in law-school admissions would increase the number of black lawyers because it would help ensure that students attend law schools where they are more likely to succeed. His study goes on to say that ending affirmative action would increase the number of new black lawyers by 8.8 percent, because students would attend law schools where they would struggle less and learn more, earn higher grades, and have better success on the job market. Not to mention, good grades matter more to employers than the law school's prestige (Sander). To say that affirmative action is a necessity to equality is untrue. The remedy is completely wrong. Affirmative action not only rejects the ideas of justice, a color-blind society, and equality; it embraces the idea that there needs to be a distinction between the races, and that we as a society need to act accordingly and treat some races with preferential treatment. In addition, it does so by means that make large sweeping generalizations and remedies that are not beneficial (in fact, some times harmful) to its ultimate goal. As bills are being proposed to end affirmative action in various states including California and Michigan, I see the beginning of a true path toward full equality and justice; one that does not require “an eye for an eye” justice. As Professor Schulman says, “Wouldn't it be better to create a vision of a society in which my good fortune did not mean your suffering?”
Not only does that read strongly like an opinion piece ... It backs up its statements with anecdotal evidence.... Affirmative action hurts black law students ... because the will earn poor grades drop out and fail the bar... Nice..
Affirmative action didn't seem to harm white america too much .... in the 200+ or so years before 1956 (the year black people became eligible for social security going forward) and somewhat - kind of marked the end of government sanctioned AA.. Why do you think it wil hurt black people if it's been such a boon for white society?
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Not only does that read strongly like an opinion piece ... It backs up its statements with anecdotal evidence.... Affirmative action hurts black law students ... because the will earn poor grades drop out and fail the bar... Nice.. Affirmative action didn't seem to harm white america too much .... in the 200+ or so years before 1956 (the year black people became eligible for social security going forward) and somewhat - kind of marked the end of government sanctioned AA.. Why do you think it wil hurt black people if it's been such a boon for white society?
It was an opinion piece.
And it's not anecdotal, it was a study conducted.
Do I think affirmative action on the whole hurts African Americans? No, but when writing an opinion paper, haven't you ever heard of covering all the bases?
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
When affirmative action for select whites who are dumbasses, the so called "legacy admissions", is eliminated, and admissions are granted on the basis of acedemic achievement alone, then we can talk.
Not a nanosecond before.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
When affirmative action for select whites who are dumbasses, the so called "legacy admissions", is eliminated, and admissions are granted on the basis of acedemic achievement alone, then we can talk. Not a nanosecond before.
That's family, though... not race. Yeah, obviously family determines your race, but the color isn't the focal point of determination, its lineage. You could completely flip the races, and it would be the exact same, family members getting in. It's a very fine line, but it's still a distinction to be made.
What is pretty disheartening, though, is that my friend who is Asian grew up with everything she ever wanted in life, her parents made a lot more money than my parents, her house is almost twice the size of mine, she never did anything in high school while I did a bunch of extra-curricular activities, I graduated summa cum laude and in the top 20 of my class while she just barely got the honor roll, and I blew her away in SAT and ACT scores. We went to the same university... she got in right away, full ride. Meanwhile, I still had to grease the wheels every year to get my parents to help top off what cash I had so that I wouldn't be up to my eyeballs in debt when I graduated.
_____________________________________ "Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro; Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore." -Machiavelli
What the hell happened here? I just glance at the thread topic and I knew "oh shit we go again.." Man its like a [how to make drama cookbook recipe]. Yes there is white privileged you would be a fool to not know it exist. Is there a Solution to it? Not to my knowledge. If any course can be taken it would be to stop worrying about what the "White male" is doing and transcend all that B.S try your best to excel in academics, get a better job that even "white men" can't get and TAH-DAH you too will be a topic for a thread.
What bothers me is the fact that as soon as the words white male were thrown in people jumped down Black America’s throat. Using whatever statistic and generalized theory their heads can come up with. Believe it or not Black people are not the counterpart of White people and should not be used as such. I swear every time I see a topic on the white community it always 110% ends with black people being the Focus. If you as about how the movie transformers was, don’t go off on a tangent talking about Lassie the movie.. Point is stay on topic!
Being a black male myself *dum dum duuum!* I don’t like being the assumed Yang to the white community’s Ying, and I rarely if ever worry what white people are doing because I am more geared towards my own success in life. And let me tell you. You cant move forward when your always looking back. Of course there are people who use or are the victims of white male privilege *ß lol I made a funny* As a human being I can assure you that if I knew the color of my skin would get me assured privileges in life than I would most probably use it if not excessively then once or twice simply through temptation. Naturally I don’t know how the hell you get perks simply because of the color of your skin that one trick I haven’t learned. I assume it’s like having a V.I.P pass thumb-tacked to your head.
I do not care so much what everyone else is doing. One reason is because I know that through my education I can get jobs some “whites” can’t get. Do I dwell on this fact and choose choices
A. Have pity and dumb myself down as to make it a fair fight?
B. Jump up and down screaming it’s their own fault they are dumb?
I do nether because once again I am worried about me, not you. Of course no matter what color you are when it comes to excelling you are bound to face some kind of bump in the road. Enters in racism to cause a little fear/discomfort. Because we all know if your not the one winning the race then you’re the one trying to trip everyone else.
My point is stop worrying so much on what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself. Think more along the lines of “look what I have accomplished” instead of “Grr Look what they have done”
P.S where does M&M and chunky-poof daddy fit in this thread? I swear I need a “Bitch-Slappin” permit sometimes.. Stay on topic people!
Comments
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job...
And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
Yeah...how about this.
White guy: I didn't have a privileged life.
Politically correct zealot: You're such a lier. You're white therefore privileged.
White guy: No really, I don't remember ever having anything handed to me or getting any special treatment. And my family wasn't wealthy.
Politically correct zealot: Just because you don't REMEMBER it doesn't mean it didn't happen. People were probably slipping 50 dollar bills into your pockets when you weren't looking.
White guy: Um......
Zealot: Yeah! See! You got nuthin to say about that do you! Prove to me that people DIDN'T slip money into your pockets when you weren't looking! Prove it!
White guy: Look, let's just get to the crux of the matter. If it's wrong to discriminate against non-whites then isn't it also wrong to discriminate against whites? Discrimination is either wrong or it's not wrong. You can't have it both ways.
Zealot: But whites deserve to be discriminated against so it isn't really discrimination. It's just evening the score. If you hadn't discriminated against minorities so much it wouldn't have to be this way.
White guy: I never have discriminated against minorities.
Zealot: LIER!!!! Even if you personally never have, you are still white and therefor are complicitly implicated in the oppression, subjugation, explotation, defamation, and general unhappiness of everyone in the world. You are also responsible for my 2nd cousins' jock itch and the time I stubbed my toe when I was eleven.
White guy: .........ok. How do I respond to that?
Zealot: YOU DON'T! That's just the problem! You don't want to respond to your sins by repaying your debt to society! So you should be FORCED to pay!
White guy: Um...what sins? What did I do?
Zealot: You were BORN WHITE you son of a bitch!
White guy: Ah, now I see. I'm sorry.
Zealot: Sorry ain't good enough!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ Methane, you talk like all white people are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Like white guys can go to some secret "white privilege" organization and have money, degrees, jobs, and pretty much anything they want just handed to them.
In my earlier post I wasn't talking about the grand scheme of things I was just talking about my own personal experience. I KNOW I haven't gotten any special advantages from being white. And if anyone tells me I have they don't know what the fuck they are talking about because they didn't live my life. I'm not whining about how tough my life has been I'm just saying that I was never handed anything on a silver platter just because I'm white.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview.... you would NOT want to be hired... you're a fool if you are soooo stuck in policy and Political Correctness if you can't see how having someone of a different ethnicity can be enriching to EVERYONE else around you..
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job...
And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interviewSo IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
NOW RE READ my response.. AND REMEMBER THAT I"M SAYING IF YOU AND THE OTHER PERSON ARE EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUALEQUAL EQUALEQUAL
SHEESH...
IF YOU were a hiring manager and you needed a 60 watt bulb... two bulbs were interviewed but one casted red light and the other casted blue light... BUT BOTH WERE EQUALL IN THAT THEY WERE BOTH JUST AS BRIGHT!!!! Would you hire the Blue one or the Red one.. and WHY?!?!
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview.... you would NOT want to be hired... you're a fool if you are soooo stuck in policy and Political Correctness if you can't see how having someone of a different ethnicity can be enriching to EVERYONE else around you..
You're fake sense of rightness and wrongness is silly... Ofcourse you say what you say now.. but that is just to save face.. for fear of us using the search button in the future and turning your words against you... But in a real situation ... a real job you actually wanted... If you and another EQUALLY qualified person were interviewed you would probably NOT turn down the job...
And actually if the Hiring manager had ANY sense of decency what so ever.. he would Not even tell you his reasons for hiring you over another person... So you would probably NEVER know ....
I had a whole long post written up, but I deleted it after rereading this post.
You're calling me PC for saying the most qualified applicant should be hired, and that ethnicity, or country of origin shouldn't have anything to do with it. You're the one advocating hiring people based on their skin color, or ethnicity, to fill some dumbass quota, or diversity agenda, and you're calling me PC?
Near as I can see, you either didn't read what I wrote, or you have a poor grasp of English.
And no, I would not take a job where I was being hired not because they felt I was the best candidate for the job, but to fill a quota. There's plenty of jobs out there, no need to be at one where I am unhappy. And yeah, if I walked in to my first day of work and it was 95% blacks, and myself and one or two other token whites. Yeah, I'd kind of catch on to that. No need for a manager to tell me what I was.
But hey, if you're ok with skating by in life on hand outs, and special treatment from people that think you can't make it without special rules because your skin is a different color... Well then, good luck with that.
Maybe some day you all will get over the color of your skin, and stop being a part of the problem.
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interviewSo IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
So IF YOU AND AN EQUALLY QUALIFIED PERSON went to an interview
NOW RE READ my response.. AND REMEMBER THAT I"M SAYING IF YOU AND THE OTHER PERSON ARE EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL EQUALEQUAL EQUALEQUAL
SHEESH...
IF YOU were a hiring manager and you needed a 60 watt bulb... two bulbs were interviewed but one casted red light and the other casted blue light... BUT BOTH WERE EQUALL IN THAT THEY WERE BOTH JUST AS BRIGHT!!!! Would you hire the Blue one or the Red one.. and WHY?!?!
No I would choose the one that cost less. That is what makes the most business sense. I could care less what color they were. And then if they both cost the same I would choose which one was more flexible to work in the most areas, and if they were both willing to do that, then I would choose who was most personable in their interview. If by then they are still equal I would probably flip a coin to choose. I would never ever choose based on the color of their skin, because that adds nothing to the company's mission to make money. I could care less if my employees were experiencing other cultures. That is what their personal life is for. When they are at work, they need to work and be the most efficient workers possible to make the most money possible. That is how capitalism works.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
No I'm saying.. .If you got a group of Communists in a room and asked them what is the best form of government... what do you think they will say?
If you got a group of Democrats in the room and asked them What is the better party.. What do you think they will say?
If you got a group of Taliban suicide bombers in a room and asked them is America evil? what do you think they will Say?
This thread is retarded because a white man asks a question about whether or not other white guys think that they've been HELPED or are currently being helped in society due to their color..... And apparently anyone who has another opinion different to the group consensus (which is probably mostly white).. IS wrong...
This thread is stupid because some of you guys are closed to any opinion besides your own.. which also happens to be the opinion that best suits some of you.... You have not personally seen any privilage given to white folks because of color.. Therefore it must not exist..
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
If I go into a hospital because my testicles burn or some crap... I will Most probably feel more comfortable talking to a male doctor than a female doctor.. because of the mere fact that he is a man and he has balls too..
Extending that out to race and ethnicity... People feel comfortable around others who have shared similar experiences..... So If I have a company.. and I know making that company more diverse can make me more money by attracting people of different creeds... Does that warrant diversity? I remember a telemarketer called me once... And when I heard her voice.. instantly i wanted to hear what she had to say.. because I heard the dutch accent... (i'm dutch) and i hardly see any dutch folks here.
But your point is WELL taken though... Thank god someone finally doesn't think I'm just attacking them or something..
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Personally I have a sense of distrust towards my countrymen and women. This is 100% because of past experiences. I also have the feeling that I can learn more from people that are different from me.
To answer the initial question: Yes, I'm very priveledged to be white. If it weren't for that I'm sure I would've been in prison a few times or wouldn't have gotten as much opportunities at school or whatever.
CLICK HERE TO GET A LIST OF FREE MMO LISTS!!!
So... he says the color of the employees doesn't matter, and it's a point well taken...
I say the color of the employees doesn't matter, and you make some 20 point font, multicolor spastic freakout.
Ok, I give up. Are you just trying to fuck with me, or are you just stupid?
you do huh? but yet you can give no examples. sounds like opinion not fact to me.
Yeah, yeah. Every bit as factual as the pathetic-ass white boys blubbering about how their personal incompetence is actually because white boys are persecuted.
Actually, I don't see that so much. However, I do see a lot of blacks taking the victim role on for themselves quite willingly.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All Rights Reversed
And to answer your statement about most posters being white. Yes I write white other non hispanic on forms etc. But that is only because I am such a mutt that it isn't even funny. My family came here around the time of the Mayflower. Our roots can be traced beyond that to England and beyond that to Germany. I have Lithuanian, Polish, English, German, Irish, American Indian, Russian, as my main background. Polish which I am about 60-70% wasn't even considered white enough by most "White Europeans" My next largest % is russian and then Irish, neither of which are considered "white" enough either.
I have never once gotten anything because of who I was born. Even though there is a publishing company with my last name (distant cousins though
) An investment Company with my last name (also distant cousins 
) Even though my Great great great what ever number of greats uncle was a revolutionary war general, there is a congressman of distant relations, and heck my family is even related to the Kennedy clan since a great X a billion aunt married a Kennedy when we all still lived in Ireland. Heck one of my great uncles was a millionaire (from real estate) and the other was a boxing writer from Sport Illustrated (who have both died and I never met). I still have never gotten anything for free. One of my grandfathers was a school teacher and later a Principal. He was a WW2 hero who fought in both the Asian and European Campaigns. My Grandmother is a retired special education teacher. My other grandfather is retired from working for the county as a dump truck driver and my other grandmother was a house cleaner. I was never handed any inheritence(sp?) and I never was given a job just because of how I looked. I have worked at a Car Wash, then Burger King, Kmart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Phone Sales for computer Software, and now I am in the Military.
If I haven't gotten anything special with my birth I highly doubt anyone else is. (especially considering that there is a county in more then half a dozen states named after my family)
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Are we talking about red headed whites? Because I give privilege to red headed white women. I love them the mostest!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
All Rights Reversed
I said "equally qualified" many times.. and yet you responded saying that I would hire for color over qualification...
For him its "I understand what you are saying Meth but I disagree.. and here's what I think"
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
I said "equally qualified" many times.. and yet you responded saying that I would hire for color over qualification...
For him its "I understand what you are saying Meth but I disagree.. and here's what I think"
Because when you have two equally qualified candidates of different races you believe that we should defer to the minority...and I think that's idiotic. I think the company should choose whoever is going to make their company the most money in the long run, and race should never once be a factor. Once again, what you are advocating is just furthering racism in this country.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Ignoring for a moment the fact that totally equally qualified employees only exist in your make believe dream world, I would hire the one that, after speaking with both, I felt was best suited to the job.
REGARDLESS OF THEIR FUCKING COLOR
I'd make it bigger for you, in the hopes that it settles in, but alas, it only goes to 25.
poster by Methane: in post #38
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some...
If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some...
And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it...
Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other...
And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views...
But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post.
To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company.
While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin.
Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs.
poster by Methane: in post #38
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some...
If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some...
And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it...
Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other...
And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views...
But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post.
To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company.
While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin.
Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs.
And yet all you buy are white lights...
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Brad Grace
2 November 2006
Discrimination: An Eye for an Eye?
The University of Michigan summarizes the case of a graduate student named Allan Bakke who was rejected not once, but twice from the Medical School of the University of California, even though his grades and test scores were better than most—if not all—of the admitted applicants. He was denied admittance because of his skin color. When he sued the school, the case made it all the way up to the Supreme Court in what is now widely known as Regents of the University of California v. Bakke. In a five-to-four decision, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Bakke. The accepted rationale was direct interpretation of the sixth article of the Civil Rights Act, which states that no person “shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjugated to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial insurance.” However, one might be surprised to learn that Allan Bakke was white. The university rejected his application twice because they wanted to meet a sixteen percent quota for Hispanics and African Americans that did not have adequate test scores that the school required for admittance. Allan Bakke was a victim of affirmative action. Many states are trying to remove acts of affirmative action from their institutions, in part due to situations like that of Bakke.
Affirmative action is typically common knowledge among most people today. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy describes it as “positive steps taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.” However, the means to which they meet these ends has been the center of much controversy; specifically, in the case of preferential treatment. Christopher Edley, the White House assistant for the Clinton Administration, was given the task from 1994 to 1995 to review Clinton’s affirmative action policy. In his book, Not All Black and White: Affirmative Action and American Values, he states that almost all of his debates were based on the same hypothetical question: “Imagine a college admissions committee trying to decide between the white [son] of an Appalachian coal miner's family and the African American son of a successful Pittsburgh neurosurgeon. Why should the black applicant get preference over the white applicant?” Indeed, why? Surely the African American son of the neurosurgeon has, his whole life, experienced more advantages and privileges than the coal miner’s son. Now, the college should show preference to the African American because his race typically is left underprivileged? From a philosophical standpoint, it makes little sense. Justice cannot be circumvented for justice.
As Miriam Schulman, a professor from Santa Clara University, points out, the core controversy with affirmative action is about justice. Justice, at its heart, aims to instill a system that treats everyone entirely as equals. For example, the Jim Crow Laws violated this first basic premise of justice. Thurgood Marshal, the key Judge of the Supreme Court that ruled on the Brown v. Board of Education decision, has famously stated that “distinctions by race are so evil, so arbitrary and so invidious that a state bound to guarantee the equal protection of the laws must not invoke them in any public sphere.” Therefore, it is against the core principles of justice to favor one race over another. Justice demands that all people are treated equal. In a truly equal, color-blind society, affirmative action has no place. As Thurgood Marshal stated above, distinctions of race—any distinction, whether positive or negative (if one believes in “positive” and “negative” discrimination)—have no place in any public sphere.
This is, perhaps, put into a better picture by William Bradford Reynolds, who was the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights for the Reagan Administration. In the Yale Law Journal, he contended:
[T]o those who argue that we must use race to get beyond racism …[h]istory teaches us all too well that such an approach does not work. It is wrong when the government bestows advantages on whites at the expense of innocent blacks; it assumes no greater claim of morality if the tables are turned…. Whatever group membership one inherits, it carries with it no entitlement to preferential treatment over those not similarly endowed with the same immutable characteristics. Any compromise of this principle is discrimination, plain and simple, and such behavior is no more tolerable when employed remedially, in the name of “affirmative action” or “racial balance,” to bestow a gratuitous advantage on members of a particular group, than when it is divorced from such beneficence and for the most invidious of reasons works to one's disadvantage.
One might argue, however, that it is unfair to treat this topic that way. In the scope of justice exists “compensatory justice.” The rationale behind it is that the person wronged should receive some sort of compensation from the person that did the wrongs unto him or her. As another example, many proponents believe that affirmative action is a way for African Americans to receive reparations. Undoubtedly, African Americans have suffered a great deal in the course of the history of the United States. However, this type of rationale is not justified. As Schulman points out, a judge would be hard-pressed to tell a daughter of two [Irish] immigrants that she must now take responsibility for slavery.
Proponents would also argue that “the system” is currently in favor of white males. Using African Americans as yet another example, one could say that because of poor inner-city schools that African Americans are in, they have started off poorly, and therefore need a boost to compete with better-advantaged white students that come from more privileged schools. I find, however, that this is a case of improper remedy. The problem is a class issue, not a race issue. Having a remedy that aids those of a certain race neglects to address the issue of non-minorities in poor schools, and minorities in privileged schools. A proper remedy would be to target the source of the problem. We as a society need to help advance the communities and schools at the kindergarten through high school levels.
It is also arguable that institutions need to incorporate more minorities into the body. As Andrew Hacker pointed out in his book, Two Nations, “the number of black police officers rose from 24,000 to 64,000 and the number of black electricians, from 14,000 to 43,000." However, when I look at this, I don’t feel compelled to believe a good thing has necessarily happened. What about having more minorities in a workplace or university makes it better or more advantageous? Some may argue that there needs to be a wide variety of minds in place. I see this as wrong. To say that it is necessary to have a certain race to provide a different view on matters is inherently racist, and promotes the same “distinction of the races” that Thurgood Marshall explicitly condemns. Using quotas to meet these ends is in direct violation of justice. As another Supreme Court Judge—Clarence Thomas—once said, “I don't believe in quotas. America was founded on a philosophy of individual rights, not group rights.”
Not to mention, affirmative action in practice has actually been found to be very harmful to minorities. For example, as stated in an article by Katherine Mangan, “affirmative action hurts black law students more than it helps them by bumping applicants up into law schools where they are more likely to earn poor grades, drop out, and fail their states' bar exams.” The author of "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools,” Richard H. Sander, argues that ending racial preferences in law-school admissions would increase the number of black lawyers because it would help ensure that students attend law schools where they are more likely to succeed. His study goes on to say that ending affirmative action would increase the number of new black lawyers by 8.8 percent, because students would attend law schools where they would struggle less and learn more, earn higher grades, and have better success on the job market. Not to mention, good grades matter more to employers than the law school's prestige (Sander).
To say that affirmative action is a necessity to equality is untrue. The remedy is completely wrong. Affirmative action not only rejects the ideas of justice, a color-blind society, and equality; it embraces the idea that there needs to be a distinction between the races, and that we as a society need to act accordingly and treat some races with preferential treatment. In addition, it does so by means that make large sweeping generalizations and remedies that are not beneficial (in fact, some times harmful) to its ultimate goal. As bills are being proposed to end affirmative action in various states including California and Michigan, I see the beginning of a true path toward full equality and justice; one that does not require “an eye for an eye” justice. As Professor Schulman says, “Wouldn't it be better to create a vision of a society in which my good fortune did not mean your suffering?”
Works Cited
Edley, Christopher. Not All Black and White: Affirmative Action and American Values. New York: Hill and Wang, 1996.
Fullinwider, Robert, "Affirmative Action." The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2005 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.) <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/spr2005/entries/affirmative-action/>.
Hacker, Andrew. Two nations: Black and white, separate, hostile, unequal. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1992.
Mangan, Katherine. “Does Affirmative Action Hurt Black Law Students?” 30 Oct. 2006. The Chronicle of Higher Education. 11 Nov, 2004 <http://chronicle.com/weekly/v51/i12/12a03501.htm>.
Reynolds, William Bradford. “Individualism vs. Group Rights: The Legacy of Brown.” Yale Law Journal May 1984.
Sander, Richard H. “A Systematic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools.”. Stanford Law Review 57.367 (2004): 368-378. 25 Oct. 2006 <http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/centers/clbe/assets/Sanderpaper.pdf>.
Schulman, Miriam. “Affirmative Action or Negative Action: Is There a Different Way to Frame the Debate Over Race-Based Preference?” Issues in Ethics 7.3 (1996). 30 Oct. 2006 <http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v7n3/affirmative.html>.
University of Michigan. “Summary of the Bakke Case.” 28 Oct. 2003. 20 Oct. 2006 <http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/press/pkit/05_BakkeSum.doc>.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
poster by Methane: in post #38
So that means if I work in a Stock broker/dealer with 1000 white employees and 5 minorites... Its about time you hired some...
If I work in a bank with 10 black employees .. one mexican and no white people.. its time to hire some...
And if that means cutting some equally qualified people.. then so be it...
Dog gone it... I hate myself for furthering Racism by trying to get people of different races to work with each other and learn from each other...
And by Cutting I dont mean fire existing workers.. I mean in a group of people up for hire.. that are equally qualified.. I would cut some of them to diversity the environment.. Because Personally I think its a good think to have people of different races/cultures/religions.. talking amongst each other because It can make them all grow as you learn from other world views...
But i guess I shouldn't do that... Since that's just advocating Racism...
Well, hell, ya went and saved me the trouble of digging up the post.
To go back to your lovely light bulb analogy, you're saying that even though I chose blue because I feel they would be a better asset to my company, I in fact have to chose red, because you feel there aren't enough red light bulbs in the company.
While it may not be the textbook definition of what people think racism is, or means, you are still advocating that I chose one person over another, simply because of the color of their skin.
Edit: I'll make it even simpler for you. You see red, and blue lightbulbs. I just see lightbulbs.
And yet all you buy are white lights...
nah, I buy blacklights
you do huh? but yet you can give no examples. sounds like opinion not fact to me.
Yeah, yeah. Every bit as factual as the pathetic-ass white boys blubbering about how their personal incompetence is actually because white boys are persecuted.
Actually, I don't see that so much. However, I do see a lot of blacks taking the victim role on for themselves quite willingly.I'm seeing it right here from whaaaambulance chasing white boys.
No one has ever denied the classic NYC cab test of racial equality yet.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Not only does that read strongly like an opinion piece ... It backs up its statements with anecdotal evidence.... Affirmative action hurts black law students ... because the will earn poor grades drop out and fail the bar... Nice..
Affirmative action didn't seem to harm white america too much .... in the 200+ or so years before 1956 (the year black people became eligible for social security going forward) and somewhat - kind of marked the end of government sanctioned AA.. Why do you think it wil hurt black people if it's been such a boon for white society?
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
It was an opinion piece.
And it's not anecdotal, it was a study conducted.
Do I think affirmative action on the whole hurts African Americans? No, but when writing an opinion paper, haven't you ever heard of covering all the bases?
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
When affirmative action for select whites who are dumbasses, the so called "legacy admissions", is eliminated, and admissions are granted on the basis of acedemic achievement alone, then we can talk.
Not a nanosecond before.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
What is pretty disheartening, though, is that my friend who is Asian grew up with everything she ever wanted in life, her parents made a lot more money than my parents, her house is almost twice the size of mine, she never did anything in high school while I did a bunch of extra-curricular activities, I graduated summa cum laude and in the top 20 of my class while she just barely got the honor roll, and I blew her away in SAT and ACT scores. We went to the same university... she got in right away, full ride. Meanwhile, I still had to grease the wheels every year to get my parents to help top off what cash I had so that I wouldn't be up to my eyeballs in debt when I graduated.
_____________________________________
"Io rido, e rider mio non passa dentro;
Io ardo, e l'arsion mia non par di fore."
-Machiavelli
What the hell happened here? I just glance at the thread topic and I knew "oh shit we go again.." Man its like a [how to make drama cookbook recipe]. Yes there is white privileged you would be a fool to not know it exist. Is there a Solution to it? Not to my knowledge. If any course can be taken it would be to stop worrying about what the "White male" is doing and transcend all that B.S try your best to excel in academics, get a better job that even "white men" can't get and TAH-DAH you too will be a topic for a thread.
What bothers me is the fact that as soon as the words white male were thrown in people jumped down Black America’s throat. Using whatever statistic and generalized theory their heads can come up with. Believe it or not Black people are not the counterpart of White people and should not be used as such. I swear every time I see a topic on the white community it always 110% ends with black people being the Focus. If you as about how the movie transformers was, don’t go off on a tangent talking about Lassie the movie.. Point is stay on topic!
Being a black male myself *dum dum duuum!* I don’t like being the assumed Yang to the white community’s Ying, and I rarely if ever worry what white people are doing because I am more geared towards my own success in life. And let me tell you. You cant move forward when your always looking back. Of course there are people who use or are the victims of white male privilege *ß lol I made a funny* As a human being I can assure you that if I knew the color of my skin would get me assured privileges in life than I would most probably use it if not excessively then once or twice simply through temptation. Naturally I don’t know how the hell you get perks simply because of the color of your skin that one trick I haven’t learned. I assume it’s like having a V.I.P pass thumb-tacked to your head.
I do not care so much what everyone else is doing. One reason is because I know that through my education I can get jobs some “whites” can’t get. Do I dwell on this fact and choose choices
A. Have pity and dumb myself down as to make it a fair fight?
B. Jump up and down screaming it’s their own fault they are dumb?
I do nether because once again I am worried about me, not you. Of course no matter what color you are when it comes to excelling you are bound to face some kind of bump in the road. Enters in racism to cause a little fear/discomfort. Because we all know if your not the one winning the race then you’re the one trying to trip everyone else.
My point is stop worrying so much on what everyone else is doing and worry more about yourself. Think more along the lines of “look what I have accomplished” instead of “Grr Look what they have done”
P.S where does M&M and chunky-poof daddy fit in this thread? I swear I need a “Bitch-Slappin” permit sometimes.. Stay on topic people!
It..Burns..