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Terrible Texts of the Bible
porgie
Member Posts: 1,516
This guy could make me a Christian! 
I ask one favor if you wish to respond to this topic. Keep it about the video. Watch it first.
video.google.com/videoplay
I ask one favor if you wish to respond to this topic. Keep it about the video. Watch it first.
video.google.com/videoplay
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</OBAMA>
Comments
Most rejoice with the infinite love of God, but most reject his infinite wrath. He is both. When judging Christianity, looking at followers will offer many errors. Look toward Jesus if you want an account of what Christianity is. You have free will, use it to choose or reject Jesus, but do so on the merits of Jesus.
John 15:12-14
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Ephesians 5:5-7
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Deuteronomy 32:38-40
39See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
I wish I could find a church that offered something like this. I'm sure there is one in my area, but how do you find one?
I would get up every Sunday and rush to hear someone like this. I used to go to church with my parents but never heard anything that makes as much sense as what he says.
I especially like the question and answer session at the end. You can tell from that he is someone who knows what he's talking about. And he's studied the texts and the history from which they were written enough to put them in the context they belong in. That how you understand them best.
I can see why he's controversial though. Especially when he challenges the Bible being the word of God. But he's right, it's the word of Paul and the other writers. And like he said, Paul is as tribal as all of us are, and with it comes the bias in his writings. Not God's writings, Paul's writings.
I'm glad to live in a period where people are beginning to come about their wits. I guess he is right about the death of an issue being when people begin to debate it too. You see a lot of people debating these texts he says cause evil, so their time as being guiding principals instead of writings of men is right around the corner.
When the Bible is read the way he explains it, it can be a wonderful book. It can be a book that points out even the holiest of men hold prejudice and grudges, and it points out how they can be prolonged through history unless we learn to read them as they are. Not the "word of God".
Thanks for that. It was really cool!
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I'm sick of people like you making God out to be some tormentor of people.
I'm tired of hearing the scary God stories from one corner of your mouth and the stories of him loving me like a father coming from the other.
God loves me like my father and my own human father would never do the things to me that you say the Bible says God would or will, so screw you and your literal readings of another man's biased words.
God loves us all and he is not going to send any of us to a eternal hell or whatever the f*ck you keep promoting. Quit making him out to be some bipolar messed up evil God that is going to redeem you someday. Get over yourself and actually live a life of love instead of spreading fear in hopes that people will act like you. If that's your hopes of retaining some power then your power is minimal if even measurable.
You need to go back, watch that video, and listen. Your beliefs have caused enough pain throughout history and it's ending.
THANK GOD, it's ending.
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I had originally intended on posting something a little more insightful, but here is the condensed version (I hate this new editor with a passion): What about the Qur'an and the Vedas?
Other texts have the same evidence to support them and reaffirm the Christian belief in creationism, yet are found to be entirely invalid due to the popular acceptance of the region.
When asked about unifying religions to the benefit of man, the usual religious reply is that their way is the best way to happiness, because god intended for man to be happy. The irony is that Christian, Islamic and even Hindu teachings are less than optimal for man's good.
While we are well-informed about the shortcomings of Christianity and Islam, Hinduism also includes teachings with respect to a "caste" system where individuals are supposed to fulfill a role determined by birth irregardless of capability.
My question to Christians is: Why not unify religious beliefs, since it is fact that all sacred texts were written by fallible men and not god as evidenced by the lack of an optimal dogma?
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
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Though I agree with some of the things he said, such as the wrong doings of slavery and how misinterpretation and convenience led to people using the Bible to justify horrible things, I can't stand it when people take the Bible but pick and choose which parts they want to believe. I understand that slavery was a cultural norm at that point in time, and that the BIble was written to be relevent for them...but this guy seems to disbelieve the entire book of exodus, labeling it as nothing more than a book that promotes a supposed "tribal mentality"
It just annoys me when people think that they can pick and choose what they want to believe according to what fits their personal agenda...I didn't know who this guy was until I looked over to the right of the screen and saw the description "One of the most influential liberal Christian leaders"
At that point I rolled my eyes and understood what it was that I was about to hear.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I will not put down my sword. I will not surrender and submit to those that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. I will stand on the Word.
Proverbs 1:6,7
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Matthew 13:41-43
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I will not put down my sword. I will not surrender and submit to those that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. I will stand on the Word.
Proverbs 1:6,7
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
What a benevolent lord he is. That sounds like something that one would expect in one of those satanic cults that sacrifice children.
Matthew 13:41-43
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The followers of those words have already done much of hell's work then, eh?
Witch trials, inquisition, etc.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
The deity of the Old Testament has always been notably more bloodthirsty than that of the New Testament. This is something that always troubled me as a Christian. I suppose this view attempts to explain that to a degree.
Also enjoyed the critique on the 'go forth and multiply' line.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
It was different. I'd never heard someone actually criticize that part, people usually target the killings and the plagues and the wars.
As far as picking and choosing texts from the Bible, everyone does that. And I hear people all the time talking about verses without considering the full context that the verse comes from. If that's not cherry picking then I don't know what is.
And another thing I want to say, I agree with him when he says that you've got to take the WHOLE Bible into the context of understanding that it was written by men. It is not the "word of God". Some people may accept it as that and they can do that for their whole lives, but that doesn't change the fact that it was written by men. And with each and every single man (except maybe Jesus) throughout history, bias has not been lacking in our personalities and character. And that bias comes through in huge and subtle ways. Like for instance, the way he said Paul took texts from a book in the Bible and then flipped the words around. By flipping the words around he changed the whole meaning of the verse. Men do these kinds of things and by Paul doing that it shows that he is not above it himself.
So, the Bible needs to be viewed in it's true context. A catalog of stories written by men. When you consider this, then him having a solid foundation in history and being able to put it into context is exactly what needs to be done. The same way you would read a history book and know that even though it tries to sell itself as a reliable source, it's not. Nothing is.
The one thing that I completely gathered from his speech though is that when you read the Bible and remember that God doesn't hate, God loves us all the same, every single last one of us no matter who we are, then a lot of that stuff is blaringly biased. And to me, I find it offensive that we even consider these misrepresentations of God. I'm not going to let a book from men take anything away from God and his love for me. Not anymore. Not after watching that. It opened my eyes. God doesn't kill first born children and then turn around and smite a person again just to do it again. Just like he said. That's so ridiculous that I'm surprised the texts haven't been challenged sooner. Nor does he issue a commandment verifying women as property. That is a law from a man. And like he said, when a topic is up for debate it's already changing in the mass population. So, I'm ready for the day when we finally get our shit together and get over these stories from men, take them for the wisdom they are worth, and move on to do God's true work. Which is love one another and live our lives to each unique individuals fullness.
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</OBAMA>
I will not put down my sword. I will not surrender and submit to those that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. I will stand on the Word.
Proverbs 1:6,7
6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Matthew 13:41-43
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Dude, get over it. You're not making any impression on anyone. Like I said in another post, you sound like some movie character in a post apocalypse flick. It's sad really.
You can carry your sword, but know that you are carrying it representing texts from a book written by men. And you're going to carry that sword onto the street corner looking like someone with a sign reading, "the sky is falling, repent sinners."
We're over all that stuff now. And rightfully so. We've accepted the Bible as bias man written texts. You can call it the word of God all you want, but it's still not.
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</OBAMA>
I admit, he kind of stumbled on his words a bit when he told the story, but it still carried the same meaning to me. We are getting over populated on this planet. Resources are not infinite. At some point we have to face that. We're not adding any new real estate that I know of.
It's our responsibility, not just to ourselves, but to future generations to use some planning to pass a world to them that is sustainable.
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</OBAMA>
Having faith in a God who loves us as a father, and faith that Jesus was His son, who, somehow in dying, gave us the opportunity of eternal life is one thing. Having faith that the words of humans, in a book compiled by humans and translated by humans, is actually the unquestionable word of God, in my mind, takes a leap of faith which is beyond what I see as reason. I see it as just as unreasonable (and potentially dangerous) as the Catholic church deifying the teachings of whoever is Pope. I wonder how Paul would have reacted to know that letters which he (and his followers) wrote to particular churches at a particular time, would in future centuries be hailed as God speaking directly to us in holy scriptures and held in the highest authority.
I can understand just how advantageous(/useful/convenient) it is for a religion to have a holy text which is revered by everyone and used as a basis of unity and a source of higher authority that everyone can refer to (kind of like how many Americans use the constitution when discussing politics), but I wonder how much that was also understood and provided motives for those who compiled the Bible.
I liked Spong's approach of seeing the Bible telling the history of a people and how through time they learn more and more about the nature of God. I think it is particularly telling in looking at how Jesus challenged much of the traditional thinking of the religious leaders of the time, and even challenged scripture at times, thus suggesting that perhaps the Old Testimant hadn't always painted God in the light that Jesus saw Him in.
A quote I have used in the past on these forums to illustrate the way I see Bible literalists' thinking in terms of the trinity is, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Bible. Spong actually goes a little further to suggest that perhaps this could be a form of idolatry.
Yes the Bible was written by men but those men were guided by Christ in that writing. If the assistant types the memo for the boss, is not the memo still from the boss?
Just a thought.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
My new store for all your computer needs: Tech Chest,LLC at http://www.tech-chest.com
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
My new store for all your computer needs: Tech Chest,LLC at http://www.tech-chest.com
I believe that the Bible is actually God, not physically of course, but perfect and complete, as God is. If the Bible that has been placed in my hands is corrupted, then God is not in control. And of course i know that He is in control. I believe that the Word, while written by man, was divinely inspired. Man was led to report the Truth, the incoruptible Truth. 1 Peter 1:22-24
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
While man has free will, do you believe that man has the liberty to corrupt the Word? If the Word is corruptible, then chaos reigns and not Jesus. I posted previously that people will just accept "this part" of the Word, and reject "that part" due to it not being convient with their behavior.
Basically, people do not want to see themselves as the subject of this statement from Jesus. John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So they say my actions are not evil, I don't love darkness. So option 1 is to say .... I love the TRUE translation, unfortuately an error in the Word was made here in your version of the Bible, look here at the book i read that proves it. Or option 2 ... you are interpreting in incorrectly, this is what it really means .... you just have to read it with the understanding that (insert any sin here) is not a sin, then the passage will make so much more sense to you. They would rather attack the Light than bear the conviction that they really love the darkness.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. John 7:7
Furthermore, as i stated in an earlier post, we are not here to defend Jesus but to serve Him. Looking at the description of God's soldiers from Ephesians 6.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
It is clear that we are to be offensive in the spirital warfare that rages on even in this very thread. The Word is our only offensive gear, am i to believe that Jesus has equipped me with a rusty dagger? I think not. Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
As Jesus is our example, he quoted the Word when the tempter came during the 40 days and nights. Because evil can not stand against the sword of the Spirit.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7
Think about it, If you believe in spirtual warfare, then what is the enemy afraid of? your shield, your breastplate? No, it's the sword. Why is the ememy focused on attacking the Bible, they want to prevent the attack, they want God's soldiers on the defensive, questioning the ability of that smooth stone and sling in David's hand against the mighty Goliath. They don't want resistance to deceiving the world that (insert any sin here) is OK, not a sin. Remove the weapons from your ememies hands and you will find they resist little, in fact, not at all.
I just can't "get over it" when people attack the bible, the Word of God. I will resists this spirital attack on the Word in the same manner Jesus resisted the devil. I will use the sword of the spirit, the Word of God and say .... get thee behind me Satin. Understandably people who have not read the Bible and seen the Light are not going to understand or accept me saying to them ... get thee behind me Satin. But if they understood, they would know that i speak to the strong holds that Satin has laid as a foundation in their minds.
As i stated, I believe in spirital warfare. As soldiers of God we are to fight not the physical or carnal war, but the spiritual one. Our gear is all defensive except for the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God. I will not sit idle while the influence of the enemy is launched at me from the mouths and words of people that are either knowingly or unknowingly agents of the devil's spiritual attack.
My dad was a warrior in Vietnam for our country. He is not a warrior for Jesus. He told me more than once, that he does not believe in the Word because it was penned by man. But he would die in battle defending my ability to openly read and preach the Word.
That is my approach also. I firmly believe in your free will to not only sin, but to believe what you will concerning what is sin and what is not. I firmly believe you have the free will to even attack the Word. I do not support throwing consenting sinners into jail or worse. If you are not physically harming another your are free to do as your free will desires. I will not physcially harm or restrain you. However, i will rebuke you (just as i rebuke myself when i sin). I will not stand idle while people attempt to indoctrinate beliefs that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will be engaged in the spirtual warfare and I will call a demonic message, a demonic message. The truth via the Word is that Satin can not stand against the Word. It is no suprise to me that people in these forums repeatedly ask me to not use scripture and to "give it up dude". But I will not engage in arguements concerning Jesus (spiritual warfare) without my sword. The day i lay it down is the day the battle is over, not prior to the battle.
The most ambitious goal of spirital warfare from the devil's point of view is to remove resistance (the Word of God) so he can have free reign to preach his religion, the religion of pleasure.
Please dont get me wrong. I'm a whore to pleasure. I'm about to log off here and log onto eq and be entertained for a good many hours. But I recognize that i'm being slothful, i recognize that i'm a sinner. I dont demand that sinners or any chaser of pleasure repent and change there ways because I am NOT God. I just want them to acknowledge that it is sin and live in sin like the rest of us. Because we are all sinners.
PS: I yield that it is immpossible to "prove" that their is an absolute truth. But yield this to me, people dont want there to be an absolute truth. They want to be in control, they wanna make the rules, they want to be God. Just as Satin did and does.
PSS: concerning your statement ... "You're not making any impression on anyone." ...... I'll leave you with this slash from my sword that you repeatedly ask me to lay down.
Isaiah 55:10-12
10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Differing versions will have translations which change the meaning of certain passages. I am led to believe that the Jevovah's Witnesses' Bible has some quite significant differences. Even some of the original, ancient texts that are used differ. If God let that happen, on what are you basing your faith that the Bible you own, is the infallible word of God?
What makes you sure that the sword you carry, has not had its original God-made metals, alloyed by man and forged by man and had its edges made blunt by human translators?
One other point, I would like to make to you. While I really do admire your zeal, and I agree with you about spiritual warfare being with us and around us, if the Bible is the word of God, then isn't trying to defend it, like "trying to defend an uncaged lion"? (in quotes because I can't claim that one)
I personally have a collection of about 40 bibles. Most of them are older then 1923 and the youngest is from 1730. One thing is certain, before a certain point they are all but uniform. Until about the years of the Triumverate. During the time of them editing the texts to remove certain biblically inspired texts which werent scriptures in the first place. They did make a few minor changes in the primary texts. Several bibles based there translations from texts during and before the Triumverate, including the common texts which didn't change through the ages.
What you ended up with was a bible which basically agreed with itself for a Verrrry long time. It wasn't until the name of god and God was being removed or transposed at later dates that things got sticky. Generally the changes made are traceable due to the fact we have the full bibles from after the triumverate to the modern era.
What I've ended up with is a rather interesting notebook. I've marked down the changed over the last 1200 years. Also minor changes from the base texts. 98 percent of the bible never changed until the triumverate. After the triumverate about 97.8 percent. After the turn of last century though it was more like 80 percent the same since they removed Gods name.
Anywho, just food for though.
Differing versions will have translations which change the meaning of certain passages. I am led to believe that the Jevovah's Witnesses' Bible has some quite significant differences. Even some of the original, ancient texts that are used differ. If God let that happen, on what are you basing your faith that the Bible you own, is the infallible word of God?
What makes you sure that the sword you carry, has not had its original God-made metals, alloyed by man and forged by man and had its edges made blunt by human translators?
One other point, I would like to make to you. While I really do admire your zeal, and I agree with you about spiritual warfare being with us and around us, if the Bible is the word of God, then isn't trying to defend it, like "trying to defend an uncaged lion"? (in quotes because I can't claim that one)
Not to answer for Acesquared but in my case EggFtegg the answer to your question 'What makes you sure that the sword you carry, has not had its original God-made metals, alloyed by man and forged by man and had its edges made blunt by human translators?' is quite simple.
Faith.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
My new store for all your computer needs: Tech Chest,LLC at http://www.tech-chest.com
Having faith in a God who loves us as a father, and faith that Jesus was His son, who, somehow in dying, gave us the opportunity of eternal life is one thing. Having faith that the words of humans, in a book compiled by humans and translated by humans, is actually the unquestionable word of God, in my mind, takes a leap of faith which is beyond what I see as reason. I see it as just as unreasonable (and potentially dangerous) as the Catholic church deifying the teachings of whoever is Pope. I wonder how Paul would have reacted to know that letters which he (and his followers) wrote to particular churches at a particular time, would in future centuries be hailed as God speaking directly to us in holy scriptures and held in the highest authority.
I can understand just how advantageous(/useful/convenient) it is for a religion to have a holy text which is revered by everyone and used as a basis of unity and a source of higher authority that everyone can refer to (kind of like how many Americans use the constitution when discussing politics), but I wonder how much that was also understood and provided motives for those who compiled the Bible.
I liked Spong's approach of seeing the Bible telling the history of a people and how through time they learn more and more about the nature of God. I think it is particularly telling in looking at how Jesus challenged much of the traditional thinking of the religious leaders of the time, and even challenged scripture at times, thus suggesting that perhaps the Old Testimant hadn't always painted God in the light that Jesus saw Him in.
A quote I have used in the past on these forums to illustrate the way I see Bible literalists' thinking in terms of the trinity is, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Bible. Spong actually goes a little further to suggest that perhaps this could be a form of idolatry. What you just wrote is one of the most meaningful things I've ever read on this site from anyone.
Thank You! I wish I could write as well and as clearly as you.
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