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Buying isk for real money. Is it moral?
zoldar57
Member Posts: 19
in EVE Online
As most of the Eve player base knows, it is allowed under a certain way to buy isk for real money, through the use of an indirect method, which is endorsed by CCP.
The Method
Let's say that someone wants to buy isk for real money. He goes through one of the various online sellers and buys 5 90-day Game Time Cards, for around 15 euro (or a bit more) each. He then goes to the Eve-o forums and posts a sell order, to sell these time cards for 350mil isk each, which he will sell quit easily, through a system supported by CCP (they have even created a secure method for this kind of transactions). The end result is that this person buys 1,75billion isk for the price of 90 euro, and he does so legally.
My first question on the subject is:
Do you consider it moral that a game company allows some players with better financial stature (or maybe poor judgment or any other reason)?
On the basis that everyone should be equal or at least have the chances as the next person, isn't that considered a sort of imbalance? Should someone that takes the game more seriously and decides to spent a bit extra cash be entitled to outperform someone who is either enjoying the game as is, or wants to achieve things through normal game mechanics. Should an out of game factor be allowed to affect an ingame result. I believe it to be of the same character as with the recent accusations for CCP favoritism. On one hand you have personal relationships and on the other financial stature and will to spent, both of them affecting the game balance.
Before you answer, try to compare it to a rl situation, such as something happening in Greece:
You are fined for illegal parking and your car plates are confiscated. You will have to pay a 65 euro fine and you can collect your plates after 20 days, or you can pay 3 times that and get your plates the following day. This option is available to every citizen, but isn't that a sort of financial racism?
Another question that rises is since someone is buying isk, someone must be selling it. So e.g I am buying a GTC for 350mil isk, which means that I sold isk for 45 euro, which I can only spent on a CCP subscription though. Isn't a form of buying/selling virtual curreny?
Are the gaming companies interested in protecting their players or just looking after the escaping revenue when they are enforcing harsh policies for Virtual Currency farmers?
As stated in the Eve EULA, it is illegal to sell isk for money, but it seems legal enough to sell isk for money that will definatelly end up in CCP's wallet.
Finally, if a policy is enforced were you are not allowed to buy GTCs for isk, will that affect the playerbase? Speaking for my part, I am currently being benefited through this system, I have more than two accounts, which I am paying with isk. Because of the scandals, a bit of boredom and playing Lord of the Rings Online, I will probably not renew my subscription (one account is already closed). But, regardless of the above, if I could not pay with isk for extending my subscription, I doubt I would sustain more than one account.
What I am interested to find out is someone else's opinions on these matters. Forgive me for the long post, you are a small hero if you managed to read up to here.
The Method
Let's say that someone wants to buy isk for real money. He goes through one of the various online sellers and buys 5 90-day Game Time Cards, for around 15 euro (or a bit more) each. He then goes to the Eve-o forums and posts a sell order, to sell these time cards for 350mil isk each, which he will sell quit easily, through a system supported by CCP (they have even created a secure method for this kind of transactions). The end result is that this person buys 1,75billion isk for the price of 90 euro, and he does so legally.
My first question on the subject is:
Do you consider it moral that a game company allows some players with better financial stature (or maybe poor judgment or any other reason)?
On the basis that everyone should be equal or at least have the chances as the next person, isn't that considered a sort of imbalance? Should someone that takes the game more seriously and decides to spent a bit extra cash be entitled to outperform someone who is either enjoying the game as is, or wants to achieve things through normal game mechanics. Should an out of game factor be allowed to affect an ingame result. I believe it to be of the same character as with the recent accusations for CCP favoritism. On one hand you have personal relationships and on the other financial stature and will to spent, both of them affecting the game balance.
Before you answer, try to compare it to a rl situation, such as something happening in Greece:
You are fined for illegal parking and your car plates are confiscated. You will have to pay a 65 euro fine and you can collect your plates after 20 days, or you can pay 3 times that and get your plates the following day. This option is available to every citizen, but isn't that a sort of financial racism?
Another question that rises is since someone is buying isk, someone must be selling it. So e.g I am buying a GTC for 350mil isk, which means that I sold isk for 45 euro, which I can only spent on a CCP subscription though. Isn't a form of buying/selling virtual curreny?
Are the gaming companies interested in protecting their players or just looking after the escaping revenue when they are enforcing harsh policies for Virtual Currency farmers?
As stated in the Eve EULA, it is illegal to sell isk for money, but it seems legal enough to sell isk for money that will definatelly end up in CCP's wallet.
Finally, if a policy is enforced were you are not allowed to buy GTCs for isk, will that affect the playerbase? Speaking for my part, I am currently being benefited through this system, I have more than two accounts, which I am paying with isk. Because of the scandals, a bit of boredom and playing Lord of the Rings Online, I will probably not renew my subscription (one account is already closed). But, regardless of the above, if I could not pay with isk for extending my subscription, I doubt I would sustain more than one account.
What I am interested to find out is someone else's opinions on these matters. Forgive me for the long post, you are a small hero if you managed to read up to here.
Comments
Id say it is ok for the following reasons.
1. Its allowed.
2. The money goes to CCP not to some gold farmer macro.
3. The stuff you buy can be permanently lost via PvP so it isant permanent.
4. It discourages Macro farming as its cheaper to buy the isk of CCP.
2. I stated that through this method the money goes to CCP, but should CCP cut all ties to this type of revenue or just put her hand in the cookie jar? That is my main question. One might claim that CCP will use that money to make the game better but shouldn't CCP be confined to revenue created just by subscription?
3. Yes, but the same applies to everyone, those that bought isk and those that didn't. The latter are still at a disadvantage when compared to the first.
4. That is relevant to the rates applied by ongoing supply/demand. 90-day time cards used to go for 270mil when they first started selling them. 100mil isk would cost 27$ to buy of ebay and they had dropped to around 13-17$ before ebay stopped all transactions regarding virtual currency. Do not forget that gold farmers can be cheap labor in some countries and cutting their profits would only make them less profitable.
2. I stated that through this method the money goes to CCP, but should CCP cut all ties to this type of revenue or just put her hand in the cookie jar? That is my main question. One might claim that CCP will use that money to make the game better but shouldn't CCP be confined to revenue created just by subscription?
3. Yes, but the same applies to everyone, those that bought isk and those that didn't. The latter are still at a disadvantage when compared to the first.
4. That is relevant to the rates applied by ongoing supply/demand. 90-day time cards used to go for 270mil when they first started selling them. 100mil isk would cost 27$ to buy of ebay and they had dropped to around 13-17$ before ebay stopped all transactions regarding virtual currency. Do not forget that gold farmers can be cheap labor in some countries and cutting their profits would only make them less profitable. Why not? It only drives up prices if people are willing to pay for it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
However, wouldn't that create an imbalance between players who spend and those that don't? Come to think of it though, isn't it the same type of imbalance that can be created between someone that plays one hour each day vs someone that plays eight? On that ground, by not allowing someone to buy VC for $$$, it is like limiting a player to only of 1 hour gaming per day.
Now this leads me to another question: Should all players be equal? Should each player experience the same type of gameplay, regardless of time, effort and resources spent?
After all, when we say that time is money, can we apply it to MMO's then? Should companies allow players to purchase ingame currency through such mechanisms?
...confused.... must have burned a fuse there.
Knowledge is Power!
i have played eve for years and quit recently and my input to all this regardless of the game they need to stop all buying of isk gold etc...
This crap needs to stop ...why cause people like me and thousands others who pay to play the game is getting stepped over.... it be nice if i had the extra money to buy but i cant and i wouldnt it only destroys a games economy and it would put another head cause he has money is wrong!
My opinion all in game currency should be done like this.....
No trading between players Period (that there kills gold sellers etc) all markets are also regulated ..so noone can sell a object for a rediculaous amoount so a gold seller can buy it and the person gets the gold all items would be regualted....
once this is done all transaction can only be done in game at brokers and npc gold sellers will be the thing of the past!
If you give up on fighting gold sellers and accept that you will never get rid of them; maybe it is much better for the company who produced the game, to get a good pie of the profit.
Does it affect the game? Well yes. If its a lot or just a bit, it is debatable.
It should be recognized that it can be pretty easy to earn good money in Eve, if you know what you're doing.
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Like I always thought, who the hell in their right mind spends real money to buy imaginary money? it doesn't matter how rich your are. It's just plain stupid.
So long as theres a grind in a game that you need to slug away at to get ahead then there will be "Gold Selling" and people will be buying it because their time is more valuable than to sit mindlessly mining for cash. I like to play these games as much as the next guy but I'm not going to invest 40 hours a week to do it, thats for kids that don't have the responsibliites of a familiy or a RL.
The short version, so long as its possible or a person to use their checkbook to get ahead then thats what they'll do.
Regardless of how this is spun, I think it really comes down to the fourth point here. Afterall, the harder it is for a farmer to profitably earn and sale isk online, the less likely they are to do it.
CCP is brilliant. They created a system that these farmers cannot exploit and it also makes it difficult for them to profit off selling isk themselves. In addition, it encourages a good amount of players to play the game when they otherwise could not afford it. It is all around a great move on their part. I have always thought so.
To the OP's question, I don't think this is a "financial prejudice" at all. I am a college student with barely the money to play online games at all. I forfeit having cable or satelite TV to have internet and online games. Yet, I don't feel "cheated" by those with more money than myself at all.
I am quite thankful that there are people willing to buy time cards for others simply in return for some online currency.
not a gold farmer
a player
the problem with farmers in a game like EvE is that is isk just being flushed into EVE and destorying the PvP and econmy
player exchange is ok
but that's just me.
remember it's EVE, it's all about the game being run by the mafia
because it's fun
On the other hand, it would affect negatively those that want to extend their game time buy selling isk, since I do not think any company would implement a system where they would accept VC for a service they provide, instead of $$$
It's perfectly moral in my eyes.
No one is hurt.
It is true that an incident such as with t20 might lead to that conclusion, but remember that the t20 incident affected game balance, where as isk selling affect CCP's profits
Sure its moral in EvE....and as long as it follows the process that CCP has set out for players to do it then it follows the Eula as well.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
YAY For communism in games!
Seriously.... all that would do is make games horridly boring. And it wouldn't stop gold sellers one whit. They'd just change their modus operandi to: Pay me XYZ cash for a level 50 character just like they always have.
No matter what you do there will be gold sellers. In EVE it's regulated. It's actually the best system I've seen yet to control the gold sellers while still maintaining all the features that players love about MMORPG's. What you're proposing turns MMO's into Single Player games.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
The only real debatable topic is whether or not people should be able to spend real money to get ahead in an MMO. Ofcourse, the votes on that debate usually lean to being for it if she/he has money to blow, and against it if he/she doesn't have the spare money to blow. Very few would vote against it if they have the money to waste to get ahead in a game like EVE.
Myself, I don't advocate it, we'd probably be better off without it, but it's not as bad as it could be (if new ISK were being generated for money).
I'm biassed.
We pay for my wife's account (which doubles as an alt for me since she works nights and I work days) with ISK. If we couldn't do that we wouldn't have an account for her because We can't afford to waste money on more than 2 MMORPG subs at a time. And since I'm subscribed to both LOTR:O (founders 9.95 deal) and EVE I can't have a 3rd sub... so I pay for my 2nd EVE account with isk. My wife gets to play, I get an alt when she's not playing and everyone is happy.
So I LIKE the fact that those who have the cash to do so can sell me GTC's for isk. They get isk they need, I get a free account. Seems like a win/win to me. As a side affect of me having a 2nd account "free" my wife and I make more than twice as much isk as I could with 1 account. So it more than makes up for it's "cost".
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine