Sure, there are a lot of clones in this world. Ever compared a Lincoln to a Ford? Ever tried on some Calvin Klein jeans, and then some Costco house brand jeans? If I wanted to, I'm sure I could come up with hundreds and thousands of such comparisons. But you get the point... moving on.
Calling a product a clone is most assuredly looking at things objectively. Objectively speaking, there is little difference in the manner in which you play LOTRO as compared to the manner in which you play WoW. Standard WASD type movement, a hotbar of spells/skills/abilities that you press for combat effects, crafting, questing, etc. You level up your character by gaining xp from defeating mobs or completing quests, and acquire new gear and abilities. Looking at things objectively is fun, huh .
If PvMP was exactly the same as PvP, how come its called PvMP? How come if its exactly the same, people keep saying its not the same? How come if you say it is, I can say it isn't? It's like calling a Subaru Brat a truck. Its got 4 wheels and a bed, but it sure isn't a truck.
I don't need to play the "fanboy card" with you, as its clear you are merely have a lack of understanding of this situation. It just so happens that its a common condition with many fanbois .
If you want to get all techical about the situation, your definition of a clone is wrong. It's that simple. LotRO is not an exact replica of anything but itself. You failed to make any reasonable point for me or anyone to follow up on.
It seems you have nothing better to do however.
A monster player is a player, not a monster, not a CPU, not a rabbit, it is a player. PvP stands for player vs player, which is what PvMP is. It's that simple. No one said PvMP was exactly the same as PvP, so nice try but your efforts were wasted, the fact remains that PvMP is a form of PvP. It's that simple.
You seem to fail at understanding simple concepts. Feel free to reply, I already had my bite, no need to continue the discussion. You have already been labeled a troll not because of your objective opinion but your lack of knowledge when it comes to the subject at hand coupled with your excessive posting.
EDIT: Also a good read of Yeebo's post might be good for you too.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
I have been active on the LOTRO forums since 2005 and have Alpha and Beta tested this game from August last year until early-mid March (my graphics card gave out on me) and I liked LOTRO well enough that I even preordered the game. That being said, I have gotten sorely tired of people complaining about two things in particular...Those complaints are as follows:
There is no PvP in LOTRO. LOTRO is just a WoW clone.
Now, I find both of these comments to be rather irritating. Why? Well, first of all LOTRO does have PvP, as it has Monster Play (PvMP). "But it isn't PvP! You can't grief newbies!" Yeah and guess what, there is no good MMO out there on the market that allows you to gank newbies. WoW and GW don't allow it, why should LOTRO? It just degrades the quality of the game and creates for strife within the community. Now as for LOTRO being a WoW clone, it isn't, well not unless you consider WoW to be an EQ clone. I mean LOTRO just took the basic MMO template, put in in Middle Earth, and added Monster Play instead of traditional PvP and viola! WoW is an MMO and so is LOTRO, but that is where the similarities pretty much end...
1. There is no PvP in the traditional sense. PvM is not the same, no matter how much you want people to believe so. The only people here saying anything about griefing newbies are you and the other proponents of PvM. To those of us who want real PvP, we want the excitement of never knowing when you might encounter a hostile player during your adventuring.
2. It most certainly is a WoW clone, and WoW is just an EQ/DAoC/AC2/etc clone. All these games are just variations of the same theme. What differentiates them is how well their gameplay mechanics are implemented and how fully their game world is realized.
Whats funny is you basically summed up what a lot of people were complaining about, but you didn't realize you did it .
How can you call WoW, EQ, DAoC, and AC2 clones? They were all very different in many ways. Being in the same genre doesn't make it a clone. If that were the case, we'd all still be playing EQ. That's like saying Unreal Tournament, Quake, BF 1942, Rainbow Six, and Half-life are clones, just because they are all First Person Shooters.
A good example of clone games are a lot of the Korean free-to-play MMOs, where you could swear you were playing the other games with different textures.
I haven't played LotRO yet (going to get it here in a couple hours), so I have no idea what it will be like. I just wanted to clear the air about calling it a clone of all those other games. That can't be possible, since those games you listed aren't clones of each other. I really don't expect anything truly innovative from LotRO. But, it should entertain me for a little while.
If I recall right, you can also "Spar" While not being a full pvp allowing you to just hit everything in your path, and requires agreement from both sides, you can STILL FIGHT OTHER PLAYERS.
So whether PvMP is PVP or not - the fact remains still, you can fight your friends and foes to prove superiority, plus this game was only released DAYS ago, and while not ignoring the fact its already the most polished game for its first week I ever saw, its also going to improve, we'll get the chance to capture forts and towns as you've heard and fight other people for them............. thus the game has a lot of opportunities to PVP..........
Originally posted by xAlrythx Just because a product borrows ideas, it does not make that product a clone. By your definition, there are alot of cloned products and living things in this world.
Calling a product a clone is not looking at things objectively. In the coming months the game will be evolving on the already polished surface it has released on. They have confirmed housing in the near-future amoung other things. Whether or not they make good on these promises is another thing, but they have delivered so far, and it's not like they have performance issues to worry about constantly. I doubt I will be playing this game in the future, but if they add and improve what they have now, I see no reason why this game can't become something other than just another mmorpg. Oh and about PvMP, it's PvP whether you like it or not, just because you think it isn't, doesn't make it so. I wonder what your reply will consist of because you can't exactly play the fanboy card on me considering I have little interest in the game in it's current state.
Oh boy .
Sure, there are a lot of clones in this world. Ever compared a Lincoln to a Ford? Ever tried on some Calvin Klein jeans, and then some Costco house brand jeans? If I wanted to, I'm sure I could come up with hundreds and thousands of such comparisons. But you get the point... moving on.
Calling a product a clone is most assuredly looking at things objectively. Objectively speaking, there is little difference in the manner in which you play LOTRO as compared to the manner in which you play WoW. Standard WASD type movement, a hotbar of spells/skills/abilities that you press for combat effects, crafting, questing, etc. You level up your character by gaining xp from defeating mobs or completing quests, and acquire new gear and abilities. Looking at things objectively is fun, huh .
If PvMP was exactly the same as PvP, how come its called PvMP? How come if its exactly the same, people keep saying its not the same? How come if you say it is, I can say it isn't? It's like calling a Subaru Brat a truck. Its got 4 wheels and a bed, but it sure isn't a truck.
I don't need to play the "fanboy card" with you, as its clear you are merely have a lack of understanding of this situation. It just so happens that its a common condition with many fanbois .
You talk about being objective. When in all actuallity you aren't. The definition of clone is an exact duplicate. A lincoln is not an exact dulplicate of a ford. They are similar cause they share basic features. But they do not look alike. WOW in all the sense is not a clone of any game. It is similar to all other games cause it drew it's basic game features from those games. But it is not exactly like those games. It has it's owne flair and appeal. A clone wouldn't. If it was a clone you would have the same towns, maps, characters, skills, just with the WOW textures over it.
I can already here you telling me i am not objective. That i don't look at things that way. Wich is your right cause in all actuallity you have the right to view your opinion as the only right one. I also have the right to disagree with it. That does not make me a fanboy or any other name you can come up with to call me. The poster you claim has lack of understanding of the situation has more understanding than you do. Like it or not. I have beta tested this game since beta one begun and i how the game works. I dabbled in monster play and read up on it and how it works.
True it is not traditonal PVP but it is a form of PVP. To answer your question of why it is called PvMP. This is my reason and my opinion on why. To destiguish it from traditonal PVP. If they called it PVP people would come to the game and think great i can PVP when ever i want. It is just the same as all the other games. By calling it PVMP they are letting the consumer know that it is a differant form of PVP than they are use too. The M in PVMP doesn't magically make it not PVP. As long as the monster is controlled by a player and the elf is controlled by a player it is PVP by definition. Same with RVR. It is a form of PVP.
By your definition of clone everyone in the world is a clone of each other. Cause we all have the basic features that make us human. We all have a heart in the same place, we all have two legs and walk upright. We all have two arms. We all talk out of our mouth. We all have a brain and can think. But all of this don't make us duplicates of each other. We are not all exactly alike. We are all similar cause we are all human. Same with MMO's they all have a basic make up that makes them MMO's but they are all differant in their owne way. They may play alike, but being alike doesn't make them clones. Looking alike makes them clones.
this is retarded. there are no new games out that have Pvp worth playing. if anyone has played Asheron's Call 1 then they know the true pleasures of Player vs Player action. when will these companies make a game for the core gamers that like to play in a competitive skill based MMO? i don't understand, they've done it, AC1 was it, and they devolutionized the game scene for what, to broaden their player base?? screw this, let's get a good game going where we can competitively kill one another!
right now their is a small think-tank forming to persuade a major developer to make a game to the core gamers needs..
I have always thought PvP meant player versus player. Accordingly, that should mean you are playing against someone else who is also a player at the game. That being said, I am still quite sure if another player is a person playing the game, or the character in the game. I would think PvP simply means I am playing against anything controlled/ created by a fellow "player." Thefore, if I am correct, Pok
this is retarded. there are no new games out that have Pvp worth playing. if anyone has played Asheron's Call 1 then they know the true pleasures of Player vs Player action. when will these companies make a game for the core gamers that like to play in a competitive skill based MMO? i don't understand, they've done it, AC1 was it, and they devolutionized the game scene for what, to broaden their player base?? screw this, let's get a good game going where we can competitively kill one another! right now their is a small think-tank forming to persuade a major developer to make a game to the core gamers needs.. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/124374
check it out, it's based on the ideas of the AC1 game... i have yet to meet a gammer that has devoted time to this game without loving it.
IT is because the Core gaming ideas of a game like AC1 (Also ideas from EQ1) no longer work for the majority of gamers. We have all grown up and graduated from College, have families and jobs, etc. We can't devote the time that we could to play a game like AC1 or EQ1. So, we don't want game mechanics that allow for all of our work to disappear. Either through XP loss (EQ1) or by full loot dynamics of AC1. And yes I loved AC1 when I played. I loved the combat system, the skill system, the fact that I could get the best loot while soloing. But the fact is, I don't have the time to devote to the activity that I did when I played. And I would think it is safe to say that the majority of the player base doesn't either.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Until I can choose an orc or goblin at the character selection screen and go to Hobbiton and kill hobbitses, there is no real pvp in this game. Period. Monster play is a gimmick, pure and simple.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I don't think this is true because a lot of new gamers than when people started playing ac1 are starting out playing now.The internet is more accessed by a lot more people now also. So there are people still able to play the same was as ac1 or eq1 or any other game.
To people saying that LOTR's is a clone of WOW well Blizzard has been making mmorpg's well before WOW's MMORPG came out and if anything Blizzard copied off Turbine.
I don't think monster play is really pvp but at the same token it is differant than WOW and seperates the WOW clone concept anyway.
Originally posted by Cabe2323
Originally posted by nbcalderon
this is retarded. there are no new games out that have Pvp worth playing. if anyone has played Asheron's Call 1 then they know the true pleasures of Player vs Player action. when will these companies make a game for the core gamers that like to play in a competitive skill based MMO? i don't understand, they've done it, AC1 was it, and they devolutionized the game scene for what, to broaden their player base?? screw this, let's get a good game going where we can competitively kill one another! right now their is a small think-tank forming to persuade a major developer to make a game to the core gamers needs.. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/124374
check it out, it's based on the ideas of the AC1 game... i have yet to meet a gammer that has devoted time to this game without loving it.
IT is because the Core gaming ideas of a game like AC1 (Also ideas from EQ1) no longer work for the majority of gamers. We have all grown up and graduated from College, have families and jobs, etc. We can't devote the time that we could to play a game like AC1 or EQ1. So, we don't want game mechanics that allow for all of our work to disappear. Either through XP loss (EQ1) or by full loot dynamics of AC1. And yes I loved AC1 when I played. I loved the combat system, the skill system, the fact that I could get the best loot while soloing. But the fact is, I don't have the time to devote to the activity that I did when I played. And I would think it is safe to say that the majority of the player base doesn't either.
Hmm seems to me that people drawing conclusions on why OTHER people think LOTR has no PvP are acting in the same manner.
Personally, I'd consider LOTR to not have PvP (or decent pvp anyway) because of its restriction on location not level. I don't care about level 1 griefing, but I do care that out of the entire world there's only one small place where you pretty much go to "consent" to pvping.
I don't mind eliminating the griefing of ultra low-levels, but the idea of having to travel to a specific area ruins everything. WoW had better implementation because the majority of their world actually held pvp adding a fun element of tension while doing quests and still protecting lowbies 20 and under. There is no tension when you KNOW you're in the only area you can be attacked in...you went there on purpose most likely. Lame imho
I wonder if someone could fill me in on something please.
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
I wonder if someone could fill me in on something please.
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
Just putting this here on the new page for a higher chance of someone answering my questions. Cheers.
I don't usually post in these forums, because they're crawling with the deepest, dumbest, darkest idiots the world has to offer. I continue to surf them because once in a while, there is a post that is actually worth reading, and illicits actual thinking, forcing the readers to reply with actual conversation instead of ending every sentence in lol.
I will, however, make an exception for this thread, because I'm so tired of seeing people who play Lord of the Rings denying the fact that it is a clone of World of Warcraft.
The reason everyone in their right mind calls Lord of the Rings a near identical clone to World of Warcraft is that it has innovated in so slight a fashion to the point where you almost feel like you are actually playing a modified version of the latter with ramped up graphics. That being said, copycatting in MMO's is completely unavoidable; as has been stated in previous replies here, an MMO is a game where you control an avatar, level up, and press a few buttons for combat. It's very rarely twitch based, and requires more strategy than say, an FPS. There are grind quests, dungeons, and you are driven to do both to upgrade equipment that will make you stronger.
That being said, let's take a look at why LOTR is a clone of it's predecessor and in no means a new generation of MMO:
-Ultima Online was completely different from Meridian 59, including the point of view the game was played in. It moved away from the original Rogue type dungeon crawlers, and more into an exploration of a world, with an emphasis on fear of your fellow player.
-Everquest took great ideas by UO and ran with them, while implementing dungeons, and a level based system that hadn't really been used before outside of multi user dungeons. It was revolutionary, much like UO and M59 before it.
-DAoC was so popular because it took both from UO and EQ at the same time to form a levelling grind for the PvE players and a PvP game for the people who were forced out of UO by the introduction of Felucca and Trammel. It was the best of both worlds, until it was, as many say, ruined by an expansion pack that put too much emphasis on PvE in order to keep PvPing. This is wear carebearing starts, in my opinion, with Felucca and Trammel of UO being the roots.
-COH/COV... it would be silly to compare either to anything created before it. it incorporated the basic gameply of an MMO and added such a ludicrous amount of customization and immersion that it's no wonder it's still popular.
-World of Warcraft took a huge mix out of every MMO on the market to make the beast that is still thrashing the MMO market today. It gives almost any option of PvP that is available on the market today, aside from the actual hardcore PvP present in UO. It gives you smaller instances and solo play for casuals, and larger instances and group play for the hardcore raiders. All of this is debateable, but what isn't is that it was a new generation of MMO, regardless of whether you liked it or not.
Now, I could go on listing all of the MMO's in between, but if you can't see a pattern here already, you are simply thick headed, or just a plain fan-boy. Lord of the Rings online took a fantastic IP, and turned it into an immersive environment for everyone to enjoy. It copied WoW's interface, without the inherent customization. It introduced no new to anything about MMO's. Not only did it not introduce a new way to PvP, it took a step backwards in not allowing players to participate with their own avatars, and added a side addition that can be completely avoided.
Nobody in their right minds would say Lord of the Rings is a bad game, because while it may not be for you, credit should be given where it is due. They did a fabulous job of making it immersive, interesting, and you feel alive in the world they have made. However, the innovation is lacking. Titles, and a rehashed crafting system with a buggy economy. Identical combat to previous MMO's with no new feel to anything.
Saying anything else is just lying. It's a great game, but it is WoW's younger brother. There is no debating it.
I agree completely howtoland. I started my MMO journey in early 99 with Ultima Online and ended up playing for 8 years. For seven of those years I never played another MMO, I was totally satisfied with UO. I loved how realistic the game was (even after trammel), you were not bound by many constraints. I could have a swordsman with magery or an archer paladin, I wasn't limited by classes. PvP was a huge part of the game and although they divided the world into PvE(trammel) and PvP(felucca) it was still pretty good.
Then about a year ago I started World of Warcraft. Wow was it amazing! I had never played anything like it, it was just so different from UO. Well here we are a year later and now I am TERRIBLY bored of the game. The rep grind and repetitive gameplay wore me out in less than a year. I needed a new game. My buddy had a brother working at Turbine and he got me to try out the LotRO beta. It was okay, but not fantastic. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien but the game seems very bland. The fellowship is out fighting massive battles and here we are killing wolves for some NPCs. Great.
When someone says, "Lord of the Rings Online is a World of Warcraft clone" people who like the game often say, "And WoW isnt an EQ clone?" If you say this, you are totally missing the point. NO ONE is saying that WoW is unique in all aspects. We are just saying that LotRO adds almost NOTHING in terms of innovation. If I am burned out on WoW why would I want to come to a game that is nearly the same thing? Traits and deeds are okay but that is certainly not enough to make the game significantly different.
Now the other issue, PvP. Lord of The Rings Online is obviously very PvE oriented. I agree that giving me a level 50 monster and allowing me to PvP in one zone is, quite frankly, a joke. Turbine has put themselves in a position where they will have to add a lot of raiding to keep players happy once they reach 50. This type of PvP will not keep people happy. You really need to play a real PvP game like UO to understand this I think.
I wonder if someone could fill me in on something please.
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
I don't think you can equip items but you can customize your monster to be tougher, stronger, faster(couldn't resist) with destiny points. Yes there are some people that have a monster as their main character. Although there are complaints that you can't form kinships to organize very well but from what I hear in the forums the monster players are holding their own against the freeps.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I have been active on the LOTRO forums since 2005 and have Alpha and Beta tested this game from August last year until early-mid March (my graphics card gave out on me) and I liked LOTRO well enough that I even preordered the game. That being said, I have gotten sorely tired of people complaining about two things in particular...Those complaints are as follows:
There is no PvP in LOTRO. LOTRO is just a WoW clone.
Now, I find both of these comments to be rather irritating. Why? Well, first of all LOTRO does have PvP, as it has Monster Play (PvMP). "But it isn't PvP! You can't grief newbies!" Yeah and guess what, there is no good MMO out there on the market that allows you to gank newbies. WoW and GW don't allow it, why should LOTRO? It just degrades the quality of the game and creates for strife within the community. Now as for LOTRO being a WoW clone, it isn't, well not unless you consider WoW to be an EQ clone. I mean LOTRO just took the basic MMO template, put in in Middle Earth, and added Monster Play instead of traditional PvP and viola! WoW is an MMO and so is LOTRO, but that is where the similarities pretty much end...
1. There is no PvP in the traditional sense. PvM is not the same, no matter how much you want people to believe so. The only people here saying anything about griefing newbies are you and the other proponents of PvM. To those of us who want real PvP, we want the excitement of never knowing when you might encounter a hostile player during your adventuring.
2. It most certainly is a WoW clone, and WoW is just an EQ/DAoC/AC2/etc clone. All these games are just variations of the same theme. What differentiates them is how well their gameplay mechanics are implemented and how fully their game world is realized.
Whats funny is you basically summed up what a lot of people were complaining about, but you didn't realize you did it .Here is the main problem. There are too many many ideas of "TRADITIONAL" pvp. If someone starts a thread with just the question what is tradional pvp you'll get ten different answers before the flame war starts. Everyone knows what PvE is, its a no brainer. But pvp....thats a whole can of worms based upon 3 words that tell you exactly what it is. PLAYER versus PLAYER. If you are fighting another human being that is pvp, it doesn't matter if you get xp, have full looting, cause them to go shoot their families or anything else. Turbine put the letter M in it because its player versus monster player, but guess what? its still pvp no more, no less, any other statement is someone trying to push their view of what they think they should be able to do or not do.
I wonder if someone could fill me in on something please.
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
I don't think you can equip items but you can customize your monster to be tougher, stronger, faster(couldn't resist) with destiny points. Yes there are some people that have a monster as their main character. Although there are complaints that you can't form kinships to organize very well but from what I hear in the forums the monster players are holding their own against the freeps.
The Monsters sound a little shallow at the moment, one could only hope that they have plans to give them more depth in the future to allow people to feel more connected with their Monster.
I know the reasons for them not having evil races as playable in LotRO, but I still can't help but think it's a shame.
I wonder if someone could fill me in on something please.
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
I don't think you can equip items but you can customize your monster to be tougher, stronger, faster(couldn't resist) with destiny points. Yes there are some people that have a monster as their main character. Although there are complaints that you can't form kinships to organize very well but from what I hear in the forums the monster players are holding their own against the freeps.
The Monsters sound a little shallow at the moment, one could only hope that they have plans to give them more depth in the future to allow people to feel more connected with their Monster.
I know the reasons for them not having evil races as playable in LotRO, but I still can't help but think it's a shame.
The points with the monster side (as I see it) is that they are "suppose" to be "cannon fodder", they are suppose to be "a bit" weaker in all terms, they are suppose to have a harder time coodinating things...But my guess is that there will always be more monsters present in the Ettenmoors than Free People players...Maybe a version of zerglings....
Many sais that this isn't PvP, well it sure is, and compared to many "other" games it's even a better way to PvP as it has capturable castles and forts and maybe other points of interesst...
In a traditional sence, it's not balanced, not at all..the Monsters are so weak compared to a full fledged Free People's player, just forget the one vs one fights you will get slaughtered alone, unless you manage to flee in time..The monsters are ment to hunt in group or raids(as I see it)...
Why do people say LOTRO has no PvP? Because it really doesn't. Turbine stated that id didn't "fit in" to LOTR lore and had no place. They wouldn't allow an evil race to be playable because it didn't fit in with the lore and had no place. However, they have given you a psuedo PvP wherein you can inhabit the body of a "monster" and gain destiny points and get stronger gaining gear and equipment. Yes, I remember that part in the books where they possessed a Monster. Thats a part of the lore for sure.
The reality is this, when Turbine announced the title, the legions that flocked to their community forums were they exact type of you might expect. they openly despise PvP, and go into a siezure at the very thought of griefing. They equate griefing with PvP. They equate imbalance to PvP, they equate Free for all massacres to PvP. It's either black or white. The numbers opposing PvP of ANY sort were overhwlming.. at first. Turbine had already decided not to implement Pvp Of ANY sort- well before Monster play. This labeled the game a care bear title and folks who are of an extremeist perspective and despise PvP came in droves and literally defined the community.
As the title became more visibile in the marketplace and news began spreading like wildfire on it's development, it opened up to the actual MAINSTREAM audience of gamers. And we are a diverse community. I remember the threads on the forums (I was a beta player since last August.) and it was one of the most unpleseant environments imaginable. Those who appreciate PvP in some form, be it the old DAoC battlegrounds type, or the Arena type of WoW, or the objective based PvP, faction based PvP, anyone who spoke in support of there being some type of PvP was immediately deemed a psycho-dereanged-you-step-on-baby-kittens-lunatic-teenager. The mere mention or thread title stating "no PvP?" sent the community into attack mode... and I mean viciously. Who would have thought that a community comprised mostly of passifists would be so... I imagine you see the irony here.
However, the threads continued as the community grew and turbine said "Oh crap, the attack hounds can't keep out EVERYONE who wants diversity, and since we only have four playable classes, limited character customization and limited class choices, we better do something and QUICK!"
Enter Monster Play. Yes it sounds like a Saturday Morning cartoon, and it enraged the passifist community who accused Turbine of bowing to the "frantic" demands of a minority. The minority they spoke of was still arriving by the hundreds, threads appearing, and consequently locked daily. Turbine tried to make everyone happy by intituting a different type of PvP, totally breaking their previous sternly made excuses of "lore" and "history" and brought in this non-spontaneous, really kinda dumbed down type of PvP, that isn't really PvP at all, but an off brand. Many like it however, that is just my personal opinion of it, I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm generalizing. Not my intention. I myself am an avid RP'er, but I also am able to enjoy the element of PvP in a conditional environment, such as WoW with contested territories, or DaoC when they had a open battleground. I have never EVER liked Free-For-ALL PvP, in my opinion thats asking for griefing and the primary reason I left L2. My preference is the freedom to choose my experience and have self made goals, be they PvP or PvE. Removing myself from my static Avatar to be a monster breaks the fluidity of the experience for me and detaches me from the game entirely.
Turbine understands their demographic is primarily fans of the series and storytellers/RP'ers/PvE'ers. They have set aside a small corner of their system for those who prefer a diverse experience, no matter how strange or whatever.
Comments
Sweet mother of god Yeebo, copy and paste that, and you've got half your masters thesis in game design.
It seems you have nothing better to do however.
A monster player is a player, not a monster, not a CPU, not a rabbit, it is a player. PvP stands for player vs player, which is what PvMP is. It's that simple. No one said PvMP was exactly the same as PvP, so nice try but your efforts were wasted, the fact remains that PvMP is a form of PvP. It's that simple.
You seem to fail at understanding simple concepts. Feel free to reply, I already had my bite, no need to continue the discussion. You have already been labeled a troll not because of your objective opinion but your lack of knowledge when it comes to the subject at hand coupled with your excessive posting.
EDIT: Also a good read of Yeebo's post might be good for you too.
Currently Playing: Everything but MMORPGs
Cancelled: L2, FFXI, VSoH, LotRO, WAR, WoW
Looking Forward To: SW:TOR
2. It most certainly is a WoW clone, and WoW is just an EQ/DAoC/AC2/etc clone. All these games are just variations of the same theme. What differentiates them is how well their gameplay mechanics are implemented and how fully their game world is realized.
Whats funny is you basically summed up what a lot of people were complaining about, but you didn't realize you did it
How can you call WoW, EQ, DAoC, and AC2 clones? They were all very different in many ways. Being in the same genre doesn't make it a clone. If that were the case, we'd all still be playing EQ. That's like saying Unreal Tournament, Quake, BF 1942, Rainbow Six, and Half-life are clones, just because they are all First Person Shooters.
A good example of clone games are a lot of the Korean free-to-play MMOs, where you could swear you were playing the other games with different textures.
I haven't played LotRO yet (going to get it here in a couple hours), so I have no idea what it will be like. I just wanted to clear the air about calling it a clone of all those other games. That can't be possible, since those games you listed aren't clones of each other. I really don't expect anything truly innovative from LotRO. But, it should entertain me for a little while.
"I have a need and a desire to "gank"...uh-huh..so what else is new?
How soon do you get "bored" with the games you're playing?
I just can't quite understand why the FPSers have a desire to play MMO's... many get bored so quickly due the slow pace and lack of .. ahem.."ganking"
Geesh...
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
So whether PvMP is PVP or not - the fact remains still, you can fight your friends and foes to prove superiority, plus this game was only released DAYS ago, and while not ignoring the fact its already the most polished game for its first week I ever saw, its also going to improve, we'll get the chance to capture forts and towns as you've heard and fight other people for them............. thus the game has a lot of opportunities to PVP..........
Satisfied now?
Sure, there are a lot of clones in this world. Ever compared a Lincoln to a Ford? Ever tried on some Calvin Klein jeans, and then some Costco house brand jeans? If I wanted to, I'm sure I could come up with hundreds and thousands of such comparisons. But you get the point... moving on.
Calling a product a clone is most assuredly looking at things objectively. Objectively speaking, there is little difference in the manner in which you play LOTRO as compared to the manner in which you play WoW. Standard WASD type movement, a hotbar of spells/skills/abilities that you press for combat effects, crafting, questing, etc. You level up your character by gaining xp from defeating mobs or completing quests, and acquire new gear and abilities. Looking at things objectively is fun, huh
If PvMP was exactly the same as PvP, how come its called PvMP? How come if its exactly the same, people keep saying its not the same? How come if you say it is, I can say it isn't? It's like calling a Subaru Brat a truck. Its got 4 wheels and a bed, but it sure isn't a truck.
I don't need to play the "fanboy card" with you, as its clear you are merely have a lack of understanding of this situation. It just so happens that its a common condition with many fanbois
You talk about being objective. When in all actuallity you aren't. The definition of clone is an exact duplicate. A lincoln is not an exact dulplicate of a ford. They are similar cause they share basic features. But they do not look alike. WOW in all the sense is not a clone of any game. It is similar to all other games cause it drew it's basic game features from those games. But it is not exactly like those games. It has it's owne flair and appeal. A clone wouldn't. If it was a clone you would have the same towns, maps, characters, skills, just with the WOW textures over it.
I can already here you telling me i am not objective. That i don't look at things that way. Wich is your right cause in all actuallity you have the right to view your opinion as the only right one. I also have the right to disagree with it. That does not make me a fanboy or any other name you can come up with to call me. The poster you claim has lack of understanding of the situation has more understanding than you do. Like it or not. I have beta tested this game since beta one begun and i how the game works. I dabbled in monster play and read up on it and how it works.
True it is not traditonal PVP but it is a form of PVP. To answer your question of why it is called PvMP. This is my reason and my opinion on why. To destiguish it from traditonal PVP. If they called it PVP people would come to the game and think great i can PVP when ever i want. It is just the same as all the other games. By calling it PVMP they are letting the consumer know that it is a differant form of PVP than they are use too. The M in PVMP doesn't magically make it not PVP. As long as the monster is controlled by a player and the elf is controlled by a player it is PVP by definition. Same with RVR. It is a form of PVP.
By your definition of clone everyone in the world is a clone of each other. Cause we all have the basic features that make us human. We all have a heart in the same place, we all have two legs and walk upright. We all have two arms. We all talk out of our mouth. We all have a brain and can think. But all of this don't make us duplicates of each other. We are not all exactly alike. We are all similar cause we are all human. Same with MMO's they all have a basic make up that makes them MMO's but they are all differant in their owne way. They may play alike, but being alike doesn't make them clones. Looking alike makes them clones.
then
LOTRO has PVP.
I don't think you can say that LOTRO is a WoW clone and doesn't have PvP.
My whole post was why do people say that LOTRO doesn't have PVP, not if it was a WoW Clone.
I think that has been debated enough.
When I am getting killed in Monster Play by another character that has better game skills and a better character, I will be playing PvP.
this is retarded. there are no new games out that have Pvp worth playing. if anyone has played Asheron's Call 1 then they know the true pleasures of Player vs Player action. when will these companies make a game for the core gamers that like to play in a competitive skill based MMO? i don't understand, they've done it, AC1 was it, and they devolutionized the game scene for what, to broaden their player base?? screw this, let's get a good game going where we can competitively kill one another!
right now their is a small think-tank forming to persuade a major developer to make a game to the core gamers needs..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/124374
check it out, it's based on the ideas of the AC1 game... i have yet to meet a gammer that has devoted time to this game without loving it.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I don't think this is true because a lot of new gamers than when people started playing ac1 are starting out playing now.The internet is more accessed by a lot more people now also. So there are people still able to play the same was as ac1 or eq1 or any other game.
To people saying that LOTR's is a clone of WOW well Blizzard has been making mmorpg's well before WOW's MMORPG came out and if anything Blizzard copied off Turbine.
I don't think monster play is really pvp but at the same token it is differant than WOW and seperates the WOW clone concept anyway.
Personally, I'd consider LOTR to not have PvP (or decent pvp anyway) because of its restriction on location not level. I don't care about level 1 griefing, but I do care that out of the entire world there's only one small place where you pretty much go to "consent" to pvping.
I don't mind eliminating the griefing of ultra low-levels, but the idea of having to travel to a specific area ruins everything. WoW had better implementation because the majority of their world actually held pvp adding a fun element of tension while doing quests and still protecting lowbies 20 and under. There is no tension when you KNOW you're in the only area you can be attacked in...you went there on purpose most likely. Lame imho
In an earlier post in this thread someone spoke of the customization of the 'Monster' you play, they mentioned destiny points and skills.
Can you equip items and armor for your monster too? Would it be viable for someone to have a monster as their main character (once they got their other character to the level where monster play opens up)?
I will, however, make an exception for this thread, because I'm so tired of seeing people who play Lord of the Rings denying the fact that it is a clone of World of Warcraft.
The reason everyone in their right mind calls Lord of the Rings a near identical clone to World of Warcraft is that it has innovated in so slight a fashion to the point where you almost feel like you are actually playing a modified version of the latter with ramped up graphics. That being said, copycatting in MMO's is completely unavoidable; as has been stated in previous replies here, an MMO is a game where you control an avatar, level up, and press a few buttons for combat. It's very rarely twitch based, and requires more strategy than say, an FPS. There are grind quests, dungeons, and you are driven to do both to upgrade equipment that will make you stronger.
That being said, let's take a look at why LOTR is a clone of it's predecessor and in no means a new generation of MMO:
-Ultima Online was completely different from Meridian 59, including the point of view the game was played in. It moved away from the original Rogue type dungeon crawlers, and more into an exploration of a world, with an emphasis on fear of your fellow player.
-Everquest took great ideas by UO and ran with them, while implementing dungeons, and a level based system that hadn't really been used before outside of multi user dungeons. It was revolutionary, much like UO and M59 before it.
-DAoC was so popular because it took both from UO and EQ at the same time to form a levelling grind for the PvE players and a PvP game for the people who were forced out of UO by the introduction of Felucca and Trammel. It was the best of both worlds, until it was, as many say, ruined by an expansion pack that put too much emphasis on PvE in order to keep PvPing. This is wear carebearing starts, in my opinion, with Felucca and Trammel of UO being the roots.
-COH/COV... it would be silly to compare either to anything created before it. it incorporated the basic gameply of an MMO and added such a ludicrous amount of customization and immersion that it's no wonder it's still popular.
-World of Warcraft took a huge mix out of every MMO on the market to make the beast that is still thrashing the MMO market today. It gives almost any option of PvP that is available on the market today, aside from the actual hardcore PvP present in UO. It gives you smaller instances and solo play for casuals, and larger instances and group play for the hardcore raiders. All of this is debateable, but what isn't is that it was a new generation of MMO, regardless of whether you liked it or not.
Now, I could go on listing all of the MMO's in between, but if you can't see a pattern here already, you are simply thick headed, or just a plain fan-boy. Lord of the Rings online took a fantastic IP, and turned it into an immersive environment for everyone to enjoy. It copied WoW's interface, without the inherent customization. It introduced no new to anything about MMO's. Not only did it not introduce a new way to PvP, it took a step backwards in not allowing players to participate with their own avatars, and added a side addition that can be completely avoided.
Nobody in their right minds would say Lord of the Rings is a bad game, because while it may not be for you, credit should be given where it is due. They did a fabulous job of making it immersive, interesting, and you feel alive in the world they have made. However, the innovation is lacking. Titles, and a rehashed crafting system with a buggy economy. Identical combat to previous MMO's with no new feel to anything.
Saying anything else is just lying. It's a great game, but it is WoW's younger brother. There is no debating it.
Then about a year ago I started World of Warcraft. Wow was it amazing! I had never played anything like it, it was just so different from UO. Well here we are a year later and now I am TERRIBLY bored of the game. The rep grind and repetitive gameplay wore me out in less than a year. I needed a new game. My buddy had a brother working at Turbine and he got me to try out the LotRO beta. It was okay, but not fantastic. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien but the game seems very bland. The fellowship is out fighting massive battles and here we are killing wolves for some NPCs. Great.
When someone says, "Lord of the Rings Online is a World of Warcraft clone" people who like the game often say, "And WoW isnt an EQ clone?" If you say this, you are totally missing the point. NO ONE is saying that WoW is unique in all aspects. We are just saying that LotRO adds almost NOTHING in terms of innovation. If I am burned out on WoW why would I want to come to a game that is nearly the same thing? Traits and deeds are okay but that is certainly not enough to make the game significantly different.
Now the other issue, PvP. Lord of The Rings Online is obviously very PvE oriented. I agree that giving me a level 50 monster and allowing me to PvP in one zone is, quite frankly, a joke. Turbine has put themselves in a position where they will have to add a lot of raiding to keep players happy once they reach 50. This type of PvP will not keep people happy. You really need to play a real PvP game like UO to understand this I think.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
2. It most certainly is a WoW clone, and WoW is just an EQ/DAoC/AC2/etc clone. All these games are just variations of the same theme. What differentiates them is how well their gameplay mechanics are implemented and how fully their game world is realized.
Whats funny is you basically summed up what a lot of people were complaining about, but you didn't realize you did it
The Monsters sound a little shallow at the moment, one could only hope that they have plans to give them more depth in the future to allow people to feel more connected with their Monster.
I know the reasons for them not having evil races as playable in LotRO, but I still can't help but think it's a shame.
The Monsters sound a little shallow at the moment, one could only hope that they have plans to give them more depth in the future to allow people to feel more connected with their Monster.
I know the reasons for them not having evil races as playable in LotRO, but I still can't help but think it's a shame.
The points with the monster side (as I see it) is that they are "suppose" to be "cannon fodder", they are suppose to be "a bit" weaker in all terms, they are suppose to have a harder time coodinating things...But my guess is that there will always be more monsters present in the Ettenmoors than Free People players...Maybe a version of zerglings....
Many sais that this isn't PvP, well it sure is, and compared to many "other" games it's even a better way to PvP as it has capturable castles and forts and maybe other points of interesst...
In a traditional sence, it's not balanced, not at all..the Monsters are so weak compared to a full fledged Free People's player, just forget the one vs one fights you will get slaughtered alone, unless you manage to flee in time..The monsters are ment to hunt in group or raids(as I see it)...
/Thark
Why do people say LOTRO has no PvP? Because it really doesn't. Turbine stated that id didn't "fit in" to LOTR lore and had no place. They wouldn't allow an evil race to be playable because it didn't fit in with the lore and had no place. However, they have given you a psuedo PvP wherein you can inhabit the body of a "monster" and gain destiny points and get stronger gaining gear and equipment. Yes, I remember that part in the books where they possessed a Monster. Thats a part of the lore for sure.
The reality is this, when Turbine announced the title, the legions that flocked to their community forums were they exact type of you might expect. they openly despise PvP, and go into a siezure at the very thought of griefing. They equate griefing with PvP. They equate imbalance to PvP, they equate Free for all massacres to PvP. It's either black or white. The numbers opposing PvP of ANY sort were overhwlming.. at first. Turbine had already decided not to implement Pvp Of ANY sort- well before Monster play. This labeled the game a care bear title and folks who are of an extremeist perspective and despise PvP came in droves and literally defined the community.
As the title became more visibile in the marketplace and news began spreading like wildfire on it's development, it opened up to the actual MAINSTREAM audience of gamers. And we are a diverse community. I remember the threads on the forums (I was a beta player since last August.) and it was one of the most unpleseant environments imaginable. Those who appreciate PvP in some form, be it the old DAoC battlegrounds type, or the Arena type of WoW, or the objective based PvP, faction based PvP, anyone who spoke in support of there being some type of PvP was immediately deemed a psycho-dereanged-you-step-on-baby-kittens-lunatic-teenager. The mere mention or thread title stating "no PvP?" sent the community into attack mode... and I mean viciously. Who would have thought that a community comprised mostly of passifists would be so... I imagine you see the irony here.
However, the threads continued as the community grew and turbine said "Oh crap, the attack hounds can't keep out EVERYONE who wants diversity, and since we only have four playable classes, limited character customization and limited class choices, we better do something and QUICK!"
Enter Monster Play. Yes it sounds like a Saturday Morning cartoon, and it enraged the passifist community who accused Turbine of bowing to the "frantic" demands of a minority. The minority they spoke of was still arriving by the hundreds, threads appearing, and consequently locked daily. Turbine tried to make everyone happy by intituting a different type of PvP, totally breaking their previous sternly made excuses of "lore" and "history" and brought in this non-spontaneous, really kinda dumbed down type of PvP, that isn't really PvP at all, but an off brand. Many like it however, that is just my personal opinion of it, I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm generalizing. Not my intention. I myself am an avid RP'er, but I also am able to enjoy the element of PvP in a conditional environment, such as WoW with contested territories, or DaoC when they had a open battleground. I have never EVER liked Free-For-ALL PvP, in my opinion thats asking for griefing and the primary reason I left L2. My preference is the freedom to choose my experience and have self made goals, be they PvP or PvE. Removing myself from my static Avatar to be a monster breaks the fluidity of the experience for me and detaches me from the game entirely.
Turbine understands their demographic is primarily fans of the series and storytellers/RP'ers/PvE'ers. They have set aside a small corner of their system for those who prefer a diverse experience, no matter how strange or whatever.