I am a past L2 player and a current VG player. To dispel a few "myths" and downright mistruths about both games let me first state two things. - I play on a mid-range PC (1GB RAM, 7900GT GFX) and get "performance issues" from time to time in any game I play online. In L2 sieges - where it really counts - mine and many other players can find their HW stuttering to a halt and suffering CTDs. Many of us also suffer issues prior to a launch of a new chronicle - although these issues do clear up after launch I missed a whole 6 weeks of game prior to C3..thank heavens for a test server. So far in VG I have not had any issues half as extreme. well if you have attended a castle siege you'd know not to play with your graphics settings on full. Usually in sieges where there are upwards of 100+ players on the screen, you put your graphics to "low". - No game is complete at launch. The only "advertised as in" system not in place yet in VG is the Fellowship system. This had to be removed due to a faction "exploit;" the negative effect of said exploit is negligible unlike the Grim Reaper quest exploit of L2's which really paved an early way for the pro-farming community and their (dubious morals) patrons. L2 disappointed many players who had bought the launch box advertising castle sieges and flying dragons. Castle sieges werent implemented until C1, 3 months after launch..the flying mounts came some time later. You are talking about totally different things here. From what i have read about VG players complaining about that game is that it is full of BUGS not missing features that is supposed to be implemented at the start of the game. It is BUGGY. There is a huge difference here. Lineage 2, albeit missing a lot of promised in game features at launch 3 years ago, was not BUGGY to the degree that VG is. VG is an "unfinished" game that even the developers admitted it was released too early and not finished. Do not try to confuse missing features compared to a buggy game that has unpolished programming in it. Both games are quite different and it could be that you would enjoy them both. VG is definately a game the explorer type gamer will appreciate and the combat is far more complex than L2s. It combines a skill progress and skill training system. Learned skills come in various forms: attack skills and spells, counters, rescues, chains etc. Many skills also cause effects "weaknesses" that other members of your team can take advantage of - if they put in the extra effort to learn how to use them. Ultimately, I guess both games come down to "button-mashing" you just need a lot more of them in VG so there definately feels more of a requirement for player skill as opposed to class skill. On the VG PvP servers you will need to work on faction. This will then allow you to move safely (against NPCs) in enemy territory and you can PvP freely anywhere - something I know I and many other L2 players wished for that game - you cannot PvP in L2 towns and cities which is the cause of a lot of "gate griefing." There are pros and cons to this system. Personally I think that there really needs to have safe zones in a PvP game. Otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of pepole upset and being griefed by large alliances/clans on a server, which is no fun at all. I'd rather have gate griefing than griefing on a level that is uncontrollable. Both games have a grind if you are of the mindset to level, level, level. Levelling in L2 is almost compulsory due to sieging which has quite a high level requirement. I didnt feel the grind quite so much until the Dawn and Dusk dungeons were implemented. Now you can feel at home in any dungeon you visit - they all look the same from L20-L78. But as I mentioned, L2 does have that sieging carrot to spur you on. VG has no comparable "end game" so although levels are faster to obtain than their L2 equivalent the compulsion (and stress headache) is missing. All classes learn new skills every 2 levels in VG and that along with the "skill-up" system makes you feel you are making steady progress continuously. In L2 skills come every 3/5 levels depending on whether you are melee or caster. Expect to go months with no new skills at upper levels. Ok I have a BIG problem with your statment right there on the last line: "Expect to go months with no new skills at upper levels." Were you like a casual player to the extreme? Even in upper levels you can get to your next skill up in a matter of weeks..not months, unless you play like 1 hour a day or something similar and if you play solo. BTW I'm level 76 so yes I know what I'm talking about. Its new so it wouldnt be fair to measure VGs lack of farming & botting community against the prevalence of L2s. Except to say the pro-farmers that I played alongside in L2 at launch havent put in the same appearance in VG and the devs have done a lot design-wise to prohibit botting. Lets hope it works. Maybe the botters aren't there because there is no interest in the game and because of the widespread negativity it has engenered among the beta testers as well as retail players? even botters/farmers measure a game via economic standards and its just not "profitable" for them to play the game...which, to be honest looks pretty dismal for this game. And I hope you find a game you can enjoy for many months and years. So far both L2 and VG have delivered for me. I was looking forward to playing VG, since I am a EQ1 veteran myself. I may still try it months down the line whent hey do get all the "bugs" out.
well if you have attended a castle siege you'd know not to play with your graphics settings on full
While I wasnt only addressing performance issues during sieging most L2 vets, including myself, do indeed turn gfx to minimum and, if able, do a lap of the castle to load everything possible pre-siege. That hasnt stopped the instances of 50% of the siegers all crashing simultaneously (Giran castle was particularly bad for this) - or at least it hadnt when I left the game 2 years after the US release.
While that might be acceptable for L2 players, when players suffering from performance issues with VG are told to turn down effects etc they dont feel that is an appropriate solution. Personally I believe that Sigil shouldnt have allowed us to see our own fps; I used my "counter" during beta only and I can tell you that there is little difference in performance between 18-30 fps, but some players just HATE seeing low numbers and will scream performance issue despite the fact gameplay is hardly effected.
You are talking about totally different things here
Actually I was responding to points made in this thread, specifically one from Torak (I think) who said VG had advertised features missing. As for the game being "full of bugs;" since August I have come across nothing game-breaking, launch has been smooth with regular "fixes" and as you will no doubt have heard there are already capped level characters (which also belies the falsity of this game "being more of a grind than L2"; methinks Torak was letting personal taste get in the way of fact).
What I am picking up on is the fact that when it appears a character has been bugged in some way - which can be devastating - the Sigil support just isnt there to take care of it. There is nothing obvious that tells players "dont contact us in game, we can only deal with this by email" and the response time when players do petition is inexcusable (imo). But then I am used to NCSoft support and may have been spoiled.
There are pros and cons to this system. Personally I think that there really needs to have safe zones in a PvP game. Otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of pepole upset and being griefed by large alliances/clans on a server, which is no fun at all. I'd rather have gate griefing than griefing on a level that is uncontrollable.
I agree this may not have worked in the small world of Aden. Telon, VG's world, is much, much bigger and along with the safety measure of the Faction system it is working fine - also I should clarify that I play on a "Team" PvP server as opposed to the FFA server although I havent heard any rumbles from that quarter so, so far so good.
Ok I have a BIG problem with your statment right there on the last line: "Expect to go months with no new skills at upper levels." Were you like a casual player to the extreme? Even in upper levels you can get to your next skill up in a matter of weeks..not months, unless you play like 1 hour a day or something similar and if you play solo. BTW I'm level 76 so yes I know what I'm talking about.
Not casual at all, quite the opposite. A lot will factor into this ofcourse; class, how often you participate in large-scale PvP, server (I played on Kain). Admittedly this includes those 6 weeks I couldnt play due to performance issues but my AW took 6 months going from 61-64. At 64 I was getting an average of 1.5% an hour in the dungeon at HV; perhaps 2/2.5% with a good group that werent interrupted by botters or an opposing alliance. Ofcourse, I am speaking historically, I am aware that changes were made to xp rates and levelling time has been reduced. Infact, I dont even mind that levelling is slow, I just hated the fact that all people wanted to do was camp the same damn room in the same dungeon.
Maybe the botters aren't there because there is no interest in the game and because of the widespread negativity it has engenered among the beta testers as well as retail players? even botters/farmers measure a game via economic standards and its just not "profitable" for them to play the game...which, to be honest looks pretty dismal for this game.
There are more subscribers to VG than L2 had at launch (100k+ which I believe L2 didnt achieve until 2006?) . If you played you would understand why botters wouldnt work here; although there are more than enough mobs for all live players they are spread far enough apart to make botting inefficient - thats if the combat system would accommodate an automated program to begin with.
But as I said in my original post, these are two very different games. VG has (relatively) plentiful drops and lacks the competitive edge of L2 - even on PvP servers - and that is the main reason we are not seeing the botting problem, nothing to do with a lack of subscribers there just isnt the demand from players to make gold-farming worthwhile.
I was looking forward to playing VG, since I am a EQ1 veteran myself. I may still try it months down the line whent hey do get all the "bugs" out.
I wasnt coming here to diss L2, I love it. I hope you do enjoy VG if you get to try it in the future but be prepared for a more calm experience
Ok I played FFXI for about 1 year and I really liked but then my friend gave me a free trial of WoW and I liked it but I had been looking into Vanguard or Lineage II but from what I've heard Vanguard has alot of bugs so i don't know about it. So I'm either wanting Wow or Lineage II which one should i get?
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Don't you mean play Vanguard if you want to suck like the rest?
lol as well as bugged the hell out of this world maybe.
There are still a LOT of people out there that are saying VG is bugged to hell and it hasnt been that long since it was released. Until there are more people saying its not bugged than people that are saying it is, you won't convince anyone.
and Kari, I really don't know what to say. If you feel that VG is bug-free as you claim it to be, I honestly have to question if your actually playing a game that most people in VG own forum is saying is buggy. Just reading the game in the VanGuard forums is enough to turn me off on it as well as a lot of people.
Also considering that Sigil all but admitted that they ran out of money and had to go live with a beta game? LOL that in itself is a HUGE red flag. Payiing for a beta game? No, sorry.
Like I said before maybe months down the line I MIGHT try it...but for now there are more than enough "finished" games to try before I pay for a game that isn't even a "finished" product.
There is a reason game development/developers runs out of money and there is a huge reason why publishers like Microsoft abandon it.
If you feel that VG is bug-free as you claim it to be
Where the hell did I say it was bug-free!?? Have the decency to at least read my post before responding.
Here is what I wrote about about bugs -
As for the game being "full of bugs;" since August I have come across nothing game-breaking, launch has been smooth with regular "fixes" and as you will no doubt have heard there are already capped level characters (which also belies the falsity of this game "being more of a grind than L2"; methinks Torak was letting personal taste get in the way of fact).
What I am picking up on is the fact that when it appears a character has been bugged in some way - which can be devastating - the Sigil support just isnt there to take care of it. There is nothing obvious that tells players "dont contact us in game, we can only deal with this by email" and the response time when players do petition is inexcusable (imo).
Personally I can live with the absence of a cloak graphic or a weapon graphic (though neither effect me currently I have wielded a weapon that didnt have an in-game graphic), I have also come across 2 quests that were bugged - Levels 7 and 14 - both of which were corrected very quickly meaning I didnt have to abandon them. Thats it in 25 levels and 7 weeks of gameplay (discounting beta time here but I didnt have any issues there either). Perfect no, but very very far from being unplayable. Its also worth pointing out that VG has 100s if not 1000s of quests so a couple being bugged - particularly as they are fixing them so fast - is excusable in my mind.
May I remind you the clan level up quests were bugged in L2 for 3 months after launch and guilds were required to pay 4mil and 16 mil for the liberty of obtaining higher guild ranks from a GM? (Something only guilds that were buying adena for RW $$s could afford).
As I said, I do believe character bugs can be devastating and I wouldnt like to log into game to find out my character had been rolled back two levels as I have heard happen. I always /camp when logging, though I am not sure if this is even a full-proof guard against this happening. Even on the assumption it is, crashes happen in any game and if your character hasnt been saving properly youre SOL. What compounds the problem in VG is the lack of response and empathy from Sigil CS - if anecdotal evidence is to be believed.
PS when I logged into L2 for the very first time I couldnt move for about 2 mins and had a hell of a time in the DE starter zone. So much so it wasnt even worth trying to grab the starter quests I just had to get the hell out of the city. Still had much fun though
You guys forgot one thing...L2 is a game that u will enjoy only if u have an archer or a nuker concerning pvp, the most groups are like 6 archers/nukers and 3 support classes...there are classes that are tottally useless at L2 (that's why i left this game since i was one of the useless classes).So I would say that it is a kinda unbalanced game.(All I said are only about PvP)
You guys forgot one thing...L2 is a game that u will enjoy only if u have an archer or a nuker concerning pvp, the most groups are like 6 archers/nukers and 3 support classes...there are classes that are tottally useless at L2 (that's why i left this game since i was one of the useless classes).So I would say that it is a kinda unbalanced game.(All I said are only about PvP)
Curiously enough, on the test server with no L2walker and no bought gold (in other words everyone equal opportunities) PvP was a completely different ballgame for my support character than it ever was on live servers.
And not really dimitri, most of us try new things even if we do have a "fave" that we stick with.
You guys forgot one thing...L2 is a game that u will enjoy only if u have an archer or a nuker concerning pvp, the most groups are like 6 archers/nukers and 3 support classes...there are classes that are tottally useless at L2 (that's why i left this game since i was one of the useless classes).So I would say that it is a kinda unbalanced game.(All I said are only about PvP)
Man, I hope you guys are kidding about the archer/nuker thing. I just picked up the full collection and started playing two nights ago. It would kinda suck if only those two were viable pvp classes. ...That being said, at the low level I'm at now, the game is pretty cool. I'm worried about being able to level off of Talking Island with a clan, but I'll cross that bridge (or burn it) when I get to it. And my Human Fighter - soon to be Gladiator - should keep me enthralled. Then when it doesn't I'll build the Tyrant...and then the Paladin...and then the Shillien Knight...and then the Temple Knight...etc.
In other words, for a new person like me, the games classes are all looking like fun. Viability at level 78...not really an issue at this point.
Man, I hope you guys are kidding about the archer/nuker thing. I just picked up the full collection and started playing two nights ago. It would kinda suck if only those two were viable pvp classes. ...That being said, at the low level I'm at now, the game is pretty cool. I'm worried about being able to level off of Talking Island with a clan, but I'll cross that bridge (or burn it) when I get to it. And my Human Fighter - soon to be Gladiator - should keep me enthralled. Then when it doesn't I'll build the Tyrant...and then the Paladin...and then the Shillien Knight...and then the Temple Knight...etc. In other words, for a new person like me, the games classes are all looking like fun. Viability at level 78...not really an issue at this point. Mado
I don't think you appeciate the levelling curve in L2. To achieve anything you must be dedicated to your goal. Research the classes if you must, but I would recommend you play that with which you identify most strongly. That is what will keep you going when the grind kicks in.
You will begin to understand the skill based limitations of certain classes, and begin to get a feeling for the direction of skill development from lv 20 onwards. Its very easy for example to see the difference between a lv 24 human tank and the same level rogue, by level 36 the gap turns into a chasm.
I concur KariTR ! Well said.
The availability of an endless adena fund has seriously marginalised PvP in L2. Whilst there is no denial that class roles play heavily on the outcome of PvP where DD's will tend to find it easier to "win".
However, if given the additional disparity of equipment and consumables then we would see a very different PvP landscape. The cost of consumables alone would be a rate limiting step for DD's and the amount of DPS delivered. It would place a greater focus on suppport classes which provide an edge through their buffs. Similarly, potion spamming would be less prevalent and allow the melee classes to have a far greater effect in PvP.
Ok I played FFXI for about 1 year and I really liked but then my friend gave me a free trial of WoW and I liked it but I had been looking into Vanguard or Lineage II but from what I've heard Vanguard has alot of bugs so i don't know about it. So I'm either wanting Wow or Lineage II which one should i get?
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.
I bought Vanguard and paid a 1 month subscription. I played for 2 days, and wanted to punch myself in the face for being so stupid to buy the game. Seriously it sucks.
But that isnt the topic. I never played WOW so I can't really comment on it, but I heard the community sucks from a lot of people. L2 is a fun game, escpecially when you get into the higher levels. That is when the game starts to open up. I really think this game is made for toons over level 40. Getting to 40 takes a little time, but it is not too bad. There are some issues with bots and the economy, but its not too hard to get around.
Ok I played FFXI for about 1 year and I really liked but then my friend gave me a free trial of WoW and I liked it but I had been looking into Vanguard or Lineage II but from what I've heard Vanguard has alot of bugs so i don't know about it. So I'm either wanting Wow or Lineage II which one should i get?
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.
The game is very playable now. And as much as I love L2, it had the same problems as VG had at launch and this continued for nearly 5 months. Infact the game never felt "polished" until C3...need a clue? there is a reason the oldest registered L2 forum user is from 30th August 2005 when the game actually launched in April of that year
Ok I played FFXI for about 1 year and I really liked but then my friend gave me a free trial of WoW and I liked it but I had been looking into Vanguard or Lineage II but from what I've heard Vanguard has alot of bugs so i don't know about it. So I'm either wanting Wow or Lineage II which one should i get?
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.
The game is very playable now. And as much as I love L2, it had the same problems as VG had at launch and this continued for nearly 5 months. Infact the game never felt "polished" until C3...need a clue? there is a reason the oldest registered L2 forum user is from 30th August 2005 when the game actually launched in April of that year
April 2004 Kari heheh, yeah I know time flies when you are having fun.
I agree. There were server stability issues and quest bugs as well. The server often bounced. The only positive out of all that was that the server was always very quick to bounce back. There was very little downtime and whilst the patches weren't announced properly, they did patch. Patch notes and bugs fixed were admittedly for the players to figure out. They got better as they released C2.
The age of splendor was aptly named. It made L2 what it should have been at release. It was my favourite chonicle /sigh.
If memory serves me well, I believe the original pre-C1 forums got binned as a result of all the trashtalk. Mainly due to the lack of server wipe on live release, as well as bot / farmer / exploit issues. NCSoft mods got tired of forum banning, they scrapped the old forums and from late July you had to log into the official forums to post. Which is why most of the posts begin around August.
The game is very playable now. And as much as I love L2, it had the same problems as VG had at launch and this continued for nearly 5 months. Infact the game never felt "polished" until C3...need a clue? there is a reason the oldest registered L2 forum user is from 30th August 2005 when the game actually launched in April of that year
April 2004 Kari heheh, yeah I know time flies when you are having fun.
I agree. There were server stability issues and quest bugs as well. The server often bounced. The only positive out of all that was that the server was always very quick to bounce back. There was very little downtime and whilst the patches weren't announced properly, they did patch. Patch notes and bugs fixed were admittedly for the players to figure out. They got better as they released C2.
The age of splendor was aptly named. It made L2 what it should have been at release. It was my favourite chonicle /sigh.
If memory serves me well, I believe the original pre-C1 forums got binned as a result of all the trashtalk. Mainly due to the lack of server wipe on live release, as well as bot / farmer / exploit issues. NCSoft mods got tired of forum banning, they scrapped the old forums and from late July you had to log into the official forums to post. Which is why most of the posts begin around August.
I rejoined the official boards on 28/09/2004.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
Lol, what can I say? Ive gotten to that age when losing years becomes habitual.
C1 came out in June of that year and they did the wipe, as I said, at the back-end of August. Being from Europe my rejoin date is a day later than most of the subscribers at that time. And dont forget all the fuss over "we will be making transfers available" changing to "actually we wont be making transfers available" lol Happy days.
I do love the L2 forums and miss being part of a great gaming community.
It seems history is repeating itself; I remember being lol'd at for playing "that buggy asian grind-fest" but hey if youre playing a game and having fun thats all that matters. And I'm so pleased to see that L2 NA is not only sustaining subs but increasing them as well; its my personal working model for VG circa 2010
Lineage 2 is great. It's really simple, really addictive, and yes the community CAN be good. But seriously, the reality that everyone seems to gloss over is that the economy is completely broken. The only way to get ahead is to buy Adena (gold) from gold farmers. It's not really the gold farmer's fault, it's just bad design. In order to get A or S class (two of the best in the game) gear you need extremely rare drops. We're talking 1% chance that when you kill a mob (that only spawns every 12hrs) you'll get that "piece 2 of 10" drop you need. The gold farmers will see that someone is selling one, buy it up, then sell it back for 3-4 times the amount. An honest, legit player could never hope to afford it, which is what the gold farmers want.
The community is pretty shattered. If you've ever experience the elitist behavior of FFXI's community then maybe you've already lost your cherry for what's coming next. People will kick you out of a group if you dont have the appropriate expensive power-up that they used with their gold farmer purchased money to buy. But can you really blame them? If you arent efficient then you're holding everyone else back. Harsh reality. The game is also marred by stupid teenagers that say dick and fart jokes all day long, must leave every time their mom calls them to do a chore, and will kill you regardless of the consequences it brings for them.
I wouldnt recommend this game, but damn if it isnt one of the best I've played besides these flaws.
*World of Warcraft
WoW is easy mode, plain and simple. You can play for as long as you like with little consequence. If you pick a "carebear" PvE server there is still lots of chance for rewarding PvP through battlegrounds, and the regular pvp servers bring the excitement and paranoia of knowing there's always an enemy nearby. I think it's extremely fun, and would recommend it for anyone that wants a more arcade style experience.
If you're up for raid content, WoW has some of the best hands down. The strategy involved to take down bosses was well thought out and rewarding to execute.
The community is the worst...EVER. Nothing but 12 yr old griefers and nerds over compensating for their...well you know. They talk lots of smack, dont help unless they get something out of it, and roll "greed" on all the gear they dont need, only to d/c conveniently after they have it.
To me, the game lacks real content. The quests are never interesting, and hardly reveal the supposedly vast amounts of story Blizzard claims the game has. The game is so easy to play solo (you can get from 1-70 all by yourself) that no one has an excuse to group up. This isnt always a bad thing, but I would rather play something like Oblivion for 100hrs and feel like I was doing something other than grinding experience.
The biggest reason to play is that the game will run on any pc manufactured in the last 5 years. The system requirements are amazingly low.
*Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
I played this one during open beta and it was utterly horrible. From the get go they were claiming the game has pvp "from the ground up" which would usually imply balance, but they didnt enable the pvp server until a week before launch. Yay balance testing! It's true what everyone (including the devs) say, that the game was released about 3 months early.
Now that the game has been out for a while, most of the earth shattering bugs have been eliminated. The game runs well (regardless of what some others would repeat through hearsay) as long as you have the recommended system requirements. It's the best looking MMO out there, with beautiful landscapes, and colorful pc races.
The community is great as long as you dont play on a FFA PvP server. It's the ultimate gank fest then. I once had a guy that was 10 levels higher than me camp my "corpse" just to kill me over and over again without any reward, just to be a jerk off. The PvE community is great though, and as soon as you ask a question you'll get 5 answers.
Now content in terms of story: This game is lacking, but the quests are fun and give you a real purpose to kill X amount of woodland beasts. Where the game really shines is in the mechanics department. There are so many things you can do it's ridiculous. Want to build a house on a piece of land that you staked out? Go right ahead. Ahoy matey! Build your own ships and sail the world. Gank lowbies if you feel like it. There's also a Diplomacy feature in the game that will actually change the world around you. Like if you think that a certain area is too infested with enemies, you can influence a local official to "spawn" more guards. It works kind of like a Magic the Gathering card game, except that you level up and get new cards the more you do it.
The game definitely needs some optimizations. This is especially true when lots of NPCs are nearby, like in a large city. The game renders NPCs in the direction you are facing, even if they are behind a wall. So when you're facing a large city gate it's rendering 100+ npcs behind it, causing your computer to chunk along.
Leveling is slow, but not a grind fest. The fastest way to level is by completing quests. This is made all the more hard by the fact that the world is HUGE and to get from A to B takes lots of time. This really applies at 9 and under, but at 10 you get your first mount. Some mounts even double as pack horses for extra loot. For me, the large world is a plus, because I like to explore.
*In closing:
Of the 3 you mentioned I would play vanguard. I know I'm one ofthe few willing to put up with sigil/verant/soe's bullshit but its just a cool game with lots of stuff to do.
I would recommend one you havent listed though. EverQuest 2. That game is fun. It's fast, has tons of content for all play styles (solo, raid, group, quester, roleplayer) etc. Most of my friends went from FFXI to that game and love it. The community is the best you'll find in an MMO. The graphics are gorgeous (though a little bland in the design department) and are very optimized. The scripted events will remind you of some of the FFXI cutscenes.
Everquest 2 unfortunately got a bad rep at launch, due to the game sucking balls. It's improved much, though unfortunately most people dont care haha.
er no, vanguard is one game I would NEVER recommend. Anyone thinking of playing just head on over to the Vanguard forums and check out all the complaints....STILL.
No game that you pay for is worth that much grief.
Lineage 2 is great. It's really simple, really addictive, and yes the community CAN be good. But seriously, the reality that everyone seems to gloss over is that the economy is completely broken. The only way to get ahead is to buy Adena (gold) from gold farmers. It's not really the gold farmer's fault, it's just bad design. In order to get A or S class (two of the best in the game) gear you need extremely rare drops. We're talking 1% chance that when you kill a mob (that only spawns every 12hrs) you'll get that "piece 2 of 10" drop you need. The gold farmers will see that someone is selling one, buy it up, then sell it back for 3-4 times the amount. An honest, legit player could never hope to afford it, which is what the gold farmers want.
The community is pretty shattered. If you've ever experience the elitist behavior of FFXI's community then maybe you've already lost your cherry for what's coming next. People will kick you out of a group if you dont have the appropriate expensive power-up that they used with their gold farmer purchased money to buy. But can you really blame them? If you arent efficient then you're holding everyone else back. Harsh reality. The game is also marred by stupid teenagers that say dick and fart jokes all day long, must leave every time their mom calls them to do a chore, and will kill you regardless of the consequences it brings for them.
I wouldnt recommend this game, but damn if it isnt one of the best I've played besides these flaws.
*World of Warcraft
WoW is easy mode, plain and simple. You can play for as long as you like with little consequence. If you pick a "carebear" PvE server there is still lots of chance for rewarding PvP through battlegrounds, and the regular pvp servers bring the excitement and paranoia of knowing there's always an enemy nearby. I think it's extremely fun, and would recommend it for anyone that wants a more arcade style experience.
If you're up for raid content, WoW has some of the best hands down. The strategy involved to take down bosses was well thought out and rewarding to execute.
The community is the worst...EVER. Nothing but 12 yr old griefers and nerds over compensating for their...well you know. They talk lots of smack, dont help unless they get something out of it, and roll "greed" on all the gear they dont need, only to d/c conveniently after they have it.
To me, the game lacks real content. The quests are never interesting, and hardly reveal the supposedly vast amounts of story Blizzard claims the game has. The game is so easy to play solo (you can get from 1-70 all by yourself) that no one has an excuse to group up. This isnt always a bad thing, but I would rather play something like Oblivion for 100hrs and feel like I was doing something other than grinding experience.
The biggest reason to play is that the game will run on any pc manufactured in the last 5 years. The system requirements are amazingly low.
*Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
I played this one during open beta and it was utterly horrible. From the get go they were claiming the game has pvp "from the ground up" which would usually imply balance, but they didnt enable the pvp server until a week before launch. Yay balance testing! It's true what everyone (including the devs) say, that the game was released about 3 months early.
Now that the game has been out for a while, most of the earth shattering bugs have been eliminated. The game runs well (regardless of what some others would repeat through hearsay) as long as you have the recommended system requirements. It's the best looking MMO out there, with beautiful landscapes, and colorful pc races.
The community is great as long as you dont play on a FFA PvP server. It's the ultimate gank fest then. I once had a guy that was 10 levels higher than me camp my "corpse" just to kill me over and over again without any reward, just to be a jerk off. The PvE community is great though, and as soon as you ask a question you'll get 5 answers.
Now content in terms of story: This game is lacking, but the quests are fun and give you a real purpose to kill X amount of woodland beasts. Where the game really shines is in the mechanics department. There are so many things you can do it's ridiculous. Want to build a house on a piece of land that you staked out? Go right ahead. Ahoy matey! Build your own ships and sail the world. Gank lowbies if you feel like it. There's also a Diplomacy feature in the game that will actually change the world around you. Like if you think that a certain area is too infested with enemies, you can influence a local official to "spawn" more guards. It works kind of like a Magic the Gathering card game, except that you level up and get new cards the more you do it.
The game definitely needs some optimizations. This is especially true when lots of NPCs are nearby, like in a large city. The game renders NPCs in the direction you are facing, even if they are behind a wall. So when you're facing a large city gate it's rendering 100+ npcs behind it, causing your computer to chunk along.
Leveling is slow, but not a grind fest. The fastest way to level is by completing quests. This is made all the more hard by the fact that the world is HUGE and to get from A to B takes lots of time. This really applies at 9 and under, but at 10 you get your first mount. Some mounts even double as pack horses for extra loot. For me, the large world is a plus, because I like to explore.
*In closing:
Of the 3 you mentioned I would play vanguard. I know I'm one ofthe few willing to put up with sigil/verant/soe's bullshit but its just a cool game with lots of stuff to do.
I would recommend one you havent listed though. EverQuest 2. That game is fun. It's fast, has tons of content for all play styles (solo, raid, group, quester, roleplayer) etc. Most of my friends went from FFXI to that game and love it. The community is the best you'll find in an MMO. The graphics are gorgeous (though a little bland in the design department) and are very optimized. The scripted events will remind you of some of the FFXI cutscenes.
Everquest 2 unfortunately got a bad rep at launch, due to the game sucking balls. It's improved much, though unfortunately most people dont care haha.
Anyway, have fun with whatever you pick!
The economy is not broken. It is just hard. The problem is people want the best of everything right now. I have been playing on my current server for 6 months and am lvl 58 and Just finished getting my B gear and have never bought gold. You have to play the market and craft which a lot of players don't want to do. L2 is a game about forming a comunity that lives and dies as a team. It is not a 1 on 1 PVP game. People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed. To find groups all you need to do is shout in one of the catecombs and someone will pick you up. Anyone who really plays the game for fun realizes that it is much more fun to hunt in a party then solo.
As far as the other games on the list I have played wow for two months but after experincing the comuity of L2 it just wasn't for me. I never had to group and when I did it was always with a differnt set of people. So if you are into more solo play then wow is probably a good choice. I like wow because it is a gate way mmo. It gives people who would not normally play a MMO a taste of what a MMO is. Some of these people move on to the more mature mmo's that are in the market. A lot of the new people I have met in L2 came from WOW.
Lineage 2 is great. It's really simple, really addictive, and yes the community CAN be good. But seriously, the reality that everyone seems to gloss over is that the economy is completely broken. The only way to get ahead is to buy Adena (gold) from gold farmers. It's not really the gold farmer's fault, it's just bad design. In order to get A or S class (two of the best in the game) gear you need extremely rare drops. We're talking 1% chance that when you kill a mob (that only spawns every 12hrs) you'll get that "piece 2 of 10" drop you need. The gold farmers will see that someone is selling one, buy it up, then sell it back for 3-4 times the amount. An honest, legit player could never hope to afford it, which is what the gold farmers want.
The community is pretty shattered. If you've ever experience the elitist behavior of FFXI's community then maybe you've already lost your cherry for what's coming next. People will kick you out of a group if you dont have the appropriate expensive power-up that they used with their gold farmer purchased money to buy. But can you really blame them? If you arent efficient then you're holding everyone else back. Harsh reality. The game is also marred by stupid teenagers that say dick and fart jokes all day long, must leave every time their mom calls them to do a chore, and will kill you regardless of the consequences it brings for them.
I wouldnt recommend this game, but damn if it isnt one of the best I've played besides these flaws.
*World of Warcraft
WoW is easy mode, plain and simple. You can play for as long as you like with little consequence. If you pick a "carebear" PvE server there is still lots of chance for rewarding PvP through battlegrounds, and the regular pvp servers bring the excitement and paranoia of knowing there's always an enemy nearby. I think it's extremely fun, and would recommend it for anyone that wants a more arcade style experience.
If you're up for raid content, WoW has some of the best hands down. The strategy involved to take down bosses was well thought out and rewarding to execute.
The community is the worst...EVER. Nothing but 12 yr old griefers and nerds over compensating for their...well you know. They talk lots of smack, dont help unless they get something out of it, and roll "greed" on all the gear they dont need, only to d/c conveniently after they have it.
To me, the game lacks real content. The quests are never interesting, and hardly reveal the supposedly vast amounts of story Blizzard claims the game has. The game is so easy to play solo (you can get from 1-70 all by yourself) that no one has an excuse to group up. This isnt always a bad thing, but I would rather play something like Oblivion for 100hrs and feel like I was doing something other than grinding experience.
The biggest reason to play is that the game will run on any pc manufactured in the last 5 years. The system requirements are amazingly low.
*Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
I played this one during open beta and it was utterly horrible. From the get go they were claiming the game has pvp "from the ground up" which would usually imply balance, but they didnt enable the pvp server until a week before launch. Yay balance testing! It's true what everyone (including the devs) say, that the game was released about 3 months early.
Now that the game has been out for a while, most of the earth shattering bugs have been eliminated. The game runs well (regardless of what some others would repeat through hearsay) as long as you have the recommended system requirements. It's the best looking MMO out there, with beautiful landscapes, and colorful pc races.
The community is great as long as you dont play on a FFA PvP server. It's the ultimate gank fest then. I once had a guy that was 10 levels higher than me camp my "corpse" just to kill me over and over again without any reward, just to be a jerk off. The PvE community is great though, and as soon as you ask a question you'll get 5 answers.
Now content in terms of story: This game is lacking, but the quests are fun and give you a real purpose to kill X amount of woodland beasts. Where the game really shines is in the mechanics department. There are so many things you can do it's ridiculous. Want to build a house on a piece of land that you staked out? Go right ahead. Ahoy matey! Build your own ships and sail the world. Gank lowbies if you feel like it. There's also a Diplomacy feature in the game that will actually change the world around you. Like if you think that a certain area is too infested with enemies, you can influence a local official to "spawn" more guards. It works kind of like a Magic the Gathering card game, except that you level up and get new cards the more you do it.
The game definitely needs some optimizations. This is especially true when lots of NPCs are nearby, like in a large city. The game renders NPCs in the direction you are facing, even if they are behind a wall. So when you're facing a large city gate it's rendering 100+ npcs behind it, causing your computer to chunk along.
Leveling is slow, but not a grind fest. The fastest way to level is by completing quests. This is made all the more hard by the fact that the world is HUGE and to get from A to B takes lots of time. This really applies at 9 and under, but at 10 you get your first mount. Some mounts even double as pack horses for extra loot. For me, the large world is a plus, because I like to explore.
*In closing:
Of the 3 you mentioned I would play vanguard. I know I'm one ofthe few willing to put up with sigil/verant/soe's bullshit but its just a cool game with lots of stuff to do.
I would recommend one you havent listed though. EverQuest 2. That game is fun. It's fast, has tons of content for all play styles (solo, raid, group, quester, roleplayer) etc. Most of my friends went from FFXI to that game and love it. The community is the best you'll find in an MMO. The graphics are gorgeous (though a little bland in the design department) and are very optimized. The scripted events will remind you of some of the FFXI cutscenes.
Everquest 2 unfortunately got a bad rep at launch, due to the game sucking balls. It's improved much, though unfortunately most people dont care haha.
Anyway, have fun with whatever you pick!
The economy is not broken. It is just hard. The problem is people want the best of everything right now. I have been playing on my current server for 6 months and am lvl 58 and Just finished getting my B gear and have never bought gold. You have to play the market and craft which a lot of players don't want to do. L2 is a game about forming a comunity that lives and dies as a team. It is not a 1 on 1 PVP game. People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed. To find groups all you need to do is shout in one of the catecombs and someone will pick you up. Anyone who really plays the game for fun realizes that it is much more fun to hunt in a party then solo.
As far as the other games on the list I have played wow for two months but after experincing the comuity of L2 it just wasn't for me. I never had to group and when I did it was always with a differnt set of people. So if you are into more solo play then wow is probably a good choice. I like wow because it is a gate way mmo. It gives people who would not normally play a MMO a taste of what a MMO is. Some of these people move on to the more mature mmo's that are in the market. A lot of the new people I have met in L2 came from WOW.
I have to admit your post is a little insulting and implies that I am one of the gold buying whiners you've mentioned. " People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed." This is not so. You've seriously been grinding for 6 months just to get to 58? The max level is 75 and then there are the class changes. 6 months is an unacceptable amount of time to me, especially since half of that grind was for the adena to get your b-grade gear. Now I dont want the fast "I got to 60 in 2 weeks!" leveling of WoW but what's the pay off? Lineage 2 doesnt have any other systems to keep it interesting unless you just want to log in and chat with people for a few hrs, which is fine, though you could do that and a lot more in other games. I had lots of fun grinding out raids, and I got from 1-40 in two weeks just doing that, but seriously after the lvl 35 class transfer I found that it was just grind grind grind without any real depth.
I still stick by the fact that the economy IS broken and was originally created as a time sink so that you dont power/level up too fast. The botters and adena farmers had a field day by exploiting the the fact that people cant stay logged in 24/7 like they can. So they grab all the raids people want at say 3am and, as I've said, sell all the gear for crazy prices, only to inflate the market more with their adena. It has no system of checks and balances and I'd guarantee that 3/5 members of your guild arent 100% legit because they wanted to remain competitive. I wasnt willing to commit to the endless grind, and you may consider that a fault, but it is also the reason I dont play. As I had ALSO mentioned, it's still one of the most fun games around.
So for the thread creator I'd also like to address "playing the market". Only one race can craft anything of use in the game, and that's the dwarves. Every time you craft or upgrade something there's a chance your components will be destroyed. Though this is realistic, it's not fun to lose your hard earned money on that a-grade armor you just ruined. This also means that the time you spend leveling up your crafting characters skills is taking away from the time you level up your main combat character if they are anything but a dwarf fighter class (the only thing they can be besides craftsman).
Now to simply invalidate my very valid observations is just silly, and I cant understand your need to defend a GAME by resorting to insulting insinuations. Again this is just one person's opinion and I very much respect yours.
Wait...so are you saying that you got to level 40 which you did it in 2 weeks (which most old players can do it in 1 week) and say this game is hard and that you are some kind of authority to how good/bad it is?
Like you said the level cap is 78.
When you get past 70, then you can talk about end game and then GRIND. Before level 70 there is NO grind. If you can't even handle playing a bit to actually achieve something in this game, this game wasn't meant for you.
Also, I am level 76+. I have gotten all my uber gear legit by playing the market and from those random drops in the game that are so rare. I have never resorted to botting/cheating/exploiting/scamming. You ARE able to play this game legit and reach the end content. It just comes down to, do you like the game enough to stick with it.
If your poor excuse is that you thought it was too hard after level 40...PFFFTT!!!
Wait...so are you saying that you got to level 40 which you did it in 2 weeks (which most old players can do it in 1 week) and say this game is hard and that you are some kind of authority to how good/bad it is? Like you said the level cap is 78. When you get past 70, then you can talk about end game and then GRIND. Before level 70 there is NO grind. If you can't even handle playing a bit to actually achieve something in this game, this game wasn't meant for you. Also, I am level 76+. I have gotten all my uber gear legit by playing the market and from those random drops in the game that are so rare. I have never resorted to botting/cheating/exploiting/scamming. You ARE able to play this game legit and reach the end content. It just comes down to, do you like the game enough to stick with it. If your poor excuse is that you thought it was too hard after level 40...PFFFTT!!! Stop and move on.
Did I hurt your feelings? Aww I'm sorry. Yes, yes I forgot, we were talking about how uber you are and not our thoughts on the game so someone can form an opinion before buying one right? But hey there's a thought! IT'S A GAME. Did I ever say dont buy it? Uh hmm no. You're willing to put up with the pain, I'm not. Plain and simple. As I said, I respect your opinion and I didnt have to resort to insults to state mine. Now here's something you may or may not find insulting and believe me I take pleasure in saying this. GROW UP! It's not a question of age, but a question of the maturity in which you deal with other people's opinions. Maybe if you werent spending so much of your life playing Lineage 2 you'd develop some social skills. Unplug. Just unplug.
Wait...so are you saying that you got to level 40 which you did it in 2 weeks (which most old players can do it in 1 week) and say this game is hard and that you are some kind of authority to how good/bad it is? Like you said the level cap is 78. When you get past 70, then you can talk about end game and then GRIND. Before level 70 there is NO grind. If you can't even handle playing a bit to actually achieve something in this game, this game wasn't meant for you. Also, I am level 76+. I have gotten all my uber gear legit by playing the market and from those random drops in the game that are so rare. I have never resorted to botting/cheating/exploiting/scamming. You ARE able to play this game legit and reach the end content. It just comes down to, do you like the game enough to stick with it. If your poor excuse is that you thought it was too hard after level 40...PFFFTT!!! Stop and move on.
Did I hurt your feelings? Aww I'm sorry. Yes, yes I forgot, we were talking about how uber you are and not our thoughts on the game so someone can form an opinion before buying one right? But hey there's a thought! IT'S A GAME. Did I ever say dont buy it? Uh hmm no. You're willing to put up with the pain, I'm not. Plain and simple. As I said, I respect your opinion and I didnt have to resort to insults to state mine. Now here's something you may or may not find insulting and believe me I take pleasure in saying this. GROW UP! It's not a question of age, but a question of the maturity in which you deal with other people's opinions. Maybe if you werent spending so much of your life playing Lineage 2 you'd develop some social skills. Unplug. Just unplug.
actually you did say you didn't recommend it while clearly recommending Vanguard, a game that is buggy as hell and one look at its forum would scare any avid gamer to the hills. You are obviously biased here, especially since you only reached level 40, which to me is pathetic. You think you can actually form an opinion on end game for Lineage 2 and complain about the "grind" when you didn't even get close to the end game? WTF are you spewing bullshit all over this thread for?
I don't know why people say you can't craft anything. There are dwarven craft shops. Yes, there is a fee but it is usually marginal compared to the item you are making. It still does not take away the possibility of crafting for profit. People who post that you can't craft anything if you are a race other than dwarf are just ignorant.
This is great haha! I still got my point across AGAIN. I love how you didnt address that I called you on insults and elitism, yet instead reinforced what I had already mentioned. When are you gonna get that people have other opinions? Sorry if I didnt recommend your game but yeah...unplug.
Comments
well if you have attended a castle siege you'd know not to play with your graphics settings on full
While I wasnt only addressing performance issues during sieging most L2 vets, including myself, do indeed turn gfx to minimum and, if able, do a lap of the castle to load everything possible pre-siege. That hasnt stopped the instances of 50% of the siegers all crashing simultaneously (Giran castle was particularly bad for this) - or at least it hadnt when I left the game 2 years after the US release.
While that might be acceptable for L2 players, when players suffering from performance issues with VG are told to turn down effects etc they dont feel that is an appropriate solution. Personally I believe that Sigil shouldnt have allowed us to see our own fps; I used my "counter" during beta only and I can tell you that there is little difference in performance between 18-30 fps, but some players just HATE seeing low numbers and will scream performance issue despite the fact gameplay is hardly effected.
You are talking about totally different things here
Actually I was responding to points made in this thread, specifically one from Torak (I think) who said VG had advertised features missing. As for the game being "full of bugs;" since August I have come across nothing game-breaking, launch has been smooth with regular "fixes" and as you will no doubt have heard there are already capped level characters (which also belies the falsity of this game "being more of a grind than L2"; methinks Torak was letting personal taste get in the way of fact).
What I am picking up on is the fact that when it appears a character has been bugged in some way - which can be devastating - the Sigil support just isnt there to take care of it. There is nothing obvious that tells players "dont contact us in game, we can only deal with this by email" and the response time when players do petition is inexcusable (imo). But then I am used to NCSoft support and may have been spoiled.
There are pros and cons to this system. Personally I think that there really needs to have safe zones in a PvP game. Otherwise you'd have a hell of a lot of pepole upset and being griefed by large alliances/clans on a server, which is no fun at all. I'd rather have gate griefing than griefing on a level that is uncontrollable.
I agree this may not have worked in the small world of Aden. Telon, VG's world, is much, much bigger and along with the safety measure of the Faction system it is working fine - also I should clarify that I play on a "Team" PvP server as opposed to the FFA server although I havent heard any rumbles from that quarter so, so far so good.
Ok I have a BIG problem with your statment right there on the last line: "Expect to go months with no new skills at upper levels." Were you like a casual player to the extreme? Even in upper levels you can get to your next skill up in a matter of weeks..not months, unless you play like 1 hour a day or something similar and if you play solo. BTW I'm level 76 so yes I know what I'm talking about.
Not casual at all, quite the opposite. A lot will factor into this ofcourse; class, how often you participate in large-scale PvP, server (I played on Kain). Admittedly this includes those 6 weeks I couldnt play due to performance issues but my AW took 6 months going from 61-64. At 64 I was getting an average of 1.5% an hour in the dungeon at HV; perhaps 2/2.5% with a good group that werent interrupted by botters or an opposing alliance. Ofcourse, I am speaking historically, I am aware that changes were made to xp rates and levelling time has been reduced. Infact, I dont even mind that levelling is slow, I just hated the fact that all people wanted to do was camp the same damn room in the same dungeon.
Maybe the botters aren't there because there is no interest in the game and because of the widespread negativity it has engenered among the beta testers as well as retail players? even botters/farmers measure a game via economic standards and its just not "profitable" for them to play the game...which, to be honest looks pretty dismal for this game.
There are more subscribers to VG than L2 had at launch (100k+ which I believe L2 didnt achieve until 2006?) . If you played you would understand why botters wouldnt work here; although there are more than enough mobs for all live players they are spread far enough apart to make botting inefficient - thats if the combat system would accommodate an automated program to begin with.
But as I said in my original post, these are two very different games. VG has (relatively) plentiful drops and lacks the competitive edge of L2 - even on PvP servers - and that is the main reason we are not seeing the botting problem, nothing to do with a lack of subscribers there just isnt the demand from players to make gold-farming worthwhile.
I was looking forward to playing VG, since I am a EQ1 veteran myself. I may still try it months down the line whent hey do get all the "bugs" out.
I wasnt coming here to diss L2, I love it. I hope you do enjoy VG if you get to try it in the future but be prepared for a more calm experience
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
Don't you mean play Vanguard if you want to suck like the rest?
lol as well as bugged the hell out of this world maybe.
There are still a LOT of people out there that are saying VG is bugged to hell and it hasnt been that long since it was released. Until there are more people saying its not bugged than people that are saying it is, you won't convince anyone.
and Kari, I really don't know what to say. If you feel that VG is bug-free as you claim it to be, I honestly have to question if your actually playing a game that most people in VG own forum is saying is buggy. Just reading the game in the VanGuard forums is enough to turn me off on it as well as a lot of people.
Also considering that Sigil all but admitted that they ran out of money and had to go live with a beta game? LOL that in itself is a HUGE red flag. Payiing for a beta game? No, sorry.
Like I said before maybe months down the line I MIGHT try it...but for now there are more than enough "finished" games to try before I pay for a game that isn't even a "finished" product.
There is a reason game development/developers runs out of money and there is a huge reason why publishers like Microsoft abandon it.
If you feel that VG is bug-free as you claim it to be
Where the hell did I say it was bug-free!?? Have the decency to at least read my post before responding.
Here is what I wrote about about bugs -
As for the game being "full of bugs;" since August I have come across nothing game-breaking, launch has been smooth with regular "fixes" and as you will no doubt have heard there are already capped level characters (which also belies the falsity of this game "being more of a grind than L2"; methinks Torak was letting personal taste get in the way of fact).
What I am picking up on is the fact that when it appears a character has been bugged in some way - which can be devastating - the Sigil support just isnt there to take care of it. There is nothing obvious that tells players "dont contact us in game, we can only deal with this by email" and the response time when players do petition is inexcusable (imo).
Personally I can live with the absence of a cloak graphic or a weapon graphic (though neither effect me currently I have wielded a weapon that didnt have an in-game graphic), I have also come across 2 quests that were bugged - Levels 7 and 14 - both of which were corrected very quickly meaning I didnt have to abandon them. Thats it in 25 levels and 7 weeks of gameplay (discounting beta time here but I didnt have any issues there either). Perfect no, but very very far from being unplayable. Its also worth pointing out that VG has 100s if not 1000s of quests so a couple being bugged - particularly as they are fixing them so fast - is excusable in my mind.
May I remind you the clan level up quests were bugged in L2 for 3 months after launch and guilds were required to pay 4mil and 16 mil for the liberty of obtaining higher guild ranks from a GM? (Something only guilds that were buying adena for RW $$s could afford).
As I said, I do believe character bugs can be devastating and I wouldnt like to log into game to find out my character had been rolled back two levels as I have heard happen. I always /camp when logging, though I am not sure if this is even a full-proof guard against this happening. Even on the assumption it is, crashes happen in any game and if your character hasnt been saving properly youre SOL. What compounds the problem in VG is the lack of response and empathy from Sigil CS - if anecdotal evidence is to be believed.
PS when I logged into L2 for the very first time I couldnt move for about 2 mins and had a hell of a time in the DE starter zone. So much so it wasnt even worth trying to grab the starter quests I just had to get the hell out of the city. Still had much fun though
You guys forgot one thing...L2 is a game that u will enjoy only if u have an archer or a nuker concerning pvp, the most groups are like 6 archers/nukers and 3 support classes...there are classes that are tottally useless at L2 (that's why i left this game since i was one of the useless classes).So I would say that it is a kinda unbalanced game.(All I said are only about PvP)
Paradox of asking what MMO is better on Lineage 2 forums. lol
Curiously enough, on the test server with no L2walker and no bought gold (in other words everyone equal opportunities) PvP was a completely different ballgame for my support character than it ever was on live servers.
And not really dimitri, most of us try new things even if we do have a "fave" that we stick with.
Man, I hope you guys are kidding about the archer/nuker thing. I just picked up the full collection and started playing two nights ago. It would kinda suck if only those two were viable pvp classes. ...That being said, at the low level I'm at now, the game is pretty cool. I'm worried about being able to level off of Talking Island with a clan, but I'll cross that bridge (or burn it) when I get to it. And my Human Fighter - soon to be Gladiator - should keep me enthralled. Then when it doesn't I'll build the Tyrant...and then the Paladin...and then the Shillien Knight...and then the Temple Knight...etc.
In other words, for a new person like me, the games classes are all looking like fun. Viability at level 78...not really an issue at this point.
Mado
I don't think you appeciate the levelling curve in L2. To achieve anything you must be dedicated to your goal. Research the classes if you must, but I would recommend you play that with which you identify most strongly. That is what will keep you going when the grind kicks in.
You will begin to understand the skill based limitations of certain classes, and begin to get a feeling for the direction of skill development from lv 20 onwards. Its very easy for example to see the difference between a lv 24 human tank and the same level rogue, by level 36 the gap turns into a chasm.
I concur KariTR ! Well said.
The availability of an endless adena fund has seriously marginalised PvP in L2. Whilst there is no denial that class roles play heavily on the outcome of PvP where DD's will tend to find it easier to "win".
However, if given the additional disparity of equipment and consumables then we would see a very different PvP landscape. The cost of consumables alone would be a rate limiting step for DD's and the amount of DPS delivered. It would place a greater focus on suppport classes which provide an edge through their buffs. Similarly, potion spamming would be less prevalent and allow the melee classes to have a far greater effect in PvP.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.http://aion.24-hrgaming.net
I bought Vanguard and paid a 1 month subscription. I played for 2 days, and wanted to punch myself in the face for being so stupid to buy the game. Seriously it sucks.
But that isnt the topic. I never played WOW so I can't really comment on it, but I heard the community sucks from a lot of people. L2 is a fun game, escpecially when you get into the higher levels. That is when the game starts to open up. I really think this game is made for toons over level 40. Getting to 40 takes a little time, but it is not too bad. There are some issues with bots and the economy, but its not too hard to get around.
I would deffinately go with L2
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.The game is very playable now. And as much as I love L2, it had the same problems as VG had at launch and this continued for nearly 5 months. Infact the game never felt "polished" until C3...need a clue? there is a reason the oldest registered L2 forum user is from 30th August 2005 when the game actually launched in April of that year
A vast majority of the bugs in Vanguard you have heard about have been fixed. Many of the posters here played the first few weeks and are STILL posting on that experience. Much has improved since then. Vanguard is NOW at the state it SHOULD have been at launch. You will NEVER run out of things to do either. The world is absolutely massive and packed full of content for adventure, craft, harvesting and diplomacy.
Play Vanguard. It sucks less than the rest !
You've got to be kidding me. It will take MONTHS for Vanguard to be at the state it should have been at launch. Go read the Vanguard forums on this site. There is a link to a post made by Brad where he aplogizes for the lack of content and how he would have done things differently had hindsight been 20/20. Simply put, you're making excuses that even the developers can't agree with you on.The game is very playable now. And as much as I love L2, it had the same problems as VG had at launch and this continued for nearly 5 months. Infact the game never felt "polished" until C3...need a clue? there is a reason the oldest registered L2 forum user is from 30th August 2005 when the game actually launched in April of that year
April 2004 Kari heheh, yeah I know time flies when you are having fun.
I agree. There were server stability issues and quest bugs as well. The server often bounced. The only positive out of all that was that the server was always very quick to bounce back. There was very little downtime and whilst the patches weren't announced properly, they did patch. Patch notes and bugs fixed were admittedly for the players to figure out. They got better as they released C2.
The age of splendor was aptly named. It made L2 what it should have been at release. It was my favourite chonicle /sigh.
If memory serves me well, I believe the original pre-C1 forums got binned as a result of all the trashtalk. Mainly due to the lack of server wipe on live release, as well as bot / farmer / exploit issues. NCSoft mods got tired of forum banning, they scrapped the old forums and from late July you had to log into the official forums to post. Which is why most of the posts begin around August.
I rejoined the official boards on 28/09/2004.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
April 2004 Kari heheh, yeah I know time flies when you are having fun.
I agree. There were server stability issues and quest bugs as well. The server often bounced. The only positive out of all that was that the server was always very quick to bounce back. There was very little downtime and whilst the patches weren't announced properly, they did patch. Patch notes and bugs fixed were admittedly for the players to figure out. They got better as they released C2.
The age of splendor was aptly named. It made L2 what it should have been at release. It was my favourite chonicle /sigh.
If memory serves me well, I believe the original pre-C1 forums got binned as a result of all the trashtalk. Mainly due to the lack of server wipe on live release, as well as bot / farmer / exploit issues. NCSoft mods got tired of forum banning, they scrapped the old forums and from late July you had to log into the official forums to post. Which is why most of the posts begin around August.
I rejoined the official boards on 28/09/2004.
Regards,
Ellyrion Fiallathandriel
7X Eva's Templar
Kain
Lol, what can I say? Ive gotten to that age when losing years becomes habitual.
C1 came out in June of that year and they did the wipe, as I said, at the back-end of August. Being from Europe my rejoin date is a day later than most of the subscribers at that time. And dont forget all the fuss over "we will be making transfers available" changing to "actually we wont be making transfers available" lol Happy days.
I do love the L2 forums and miss being part of a great gaming community.
It seems history is repeating itself; I remember being lol'd at for playing "that buggy asian grind-fest" but hey if youre playing a game and having fun thats all that matters. And I'm so pleased to see that L2 NA is not only sustaining subs but increasing them as well; its my personal working model for VG circa 2010
*Lineage 2
Lineage 2 is great. It's really simple, really addictive, and yes the community CAN be good. But seriously, the reality that everyone seems to gloss over is that the economy is completely broken. The only way to get ahead is to buy Adena (gold) from gold farmers. It's not really the gold farmer's fault, it's just bad design. In order to get A or S class (two of the best in the game) gear you need extremely rare drops. We're talking 1% chance that when you kill a mob (that only spawns every 12hrs) you'll get that "piece 2 of 10" drop you need. The gold farmers will see that someone is selling one, buy it up, then sell it back for 3-4 times the amount. An honest, legit player could never hope to afford it, which is what the gold farmers want.
The community is pretty shattered. If you've ever experience the elitist behavior of FFXI's community then maybe you've already lost your cherry for what's coming next. People will kick you out of a group if you dont have the appropriate expensive power-up that they used with their gold farmer purchased money to buy. But can you really blame them? If you arent efficient then you're holding everyone else back. Harsh reality. The game is also marred by stupid teenagers that say dick and fart jokes all day long, must leave every time their mom calls them to do a chore, and will kill you regardless of the consequences it brings for them.
I wouldnt recommend this game, but damn if it isnt one of the best I've played besides these flaws.
*World of Warcraft
WoW is easy mode, plain and simple. You can play for as long as you like with little consequence. If you pick a "carebear" PvE server there is still lots of chance for rewarding PvP through battlegrounds, and the regular pvp servers bring the excitement and paranoia of knowing there's always an enemy nearby. I think it's extremely fun, and would recommend it for anyone that wants a more arcade style experience.
If you're up for raid content, WoW has some of the best hands down. The strategy involved to take down bosses was well thought out and rewarding to execute.
The community is the worst...EVER. Nothing but 12 yr old griefers and nerds over compensating for their...well you know. They talk lots of smack, dont help unless they get something out of it, and roll "greed" on all the gear they dont need, only to d/c conveniently after they have it.
To me, the game lacks real content. The quests are never interesting, and hardly reveal the supposedly vast amounts of story Blizzard claims the game has. The game is so easy to play solo (you can get from 1-70 all by yourself) that no one has an excuse to group up. This isnt always a bad thing, but I would rather play something like Oblivion for 100hrs and feel like I was doing something other than grinding experience.
The biggest reason to play is that the game will run on any pc manufactured in the last 5 years. The system requirements are amazingly low.
*Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
I played this one during open beta and it was utterly horrible. From the get go they were claiming the game has pvp "from the ground up" which would usually imply balance, but they didnt enable the pvp server until a week before launch. Yay balance testing! It's true what everyone (including the devs) say, that the game was released about 3 months early.
Now that the game has been out for a while, most of the earth shattering bugs have been eliminated. The game runs well (regardless of what some others would repeat through hearsay) as long as you have the recommended system requirements. It's the best looking MMO out there, with beautiful landscapes, and colorful pc races.
The community is great as long as you dont play on a FFA PvP server. It's the ultimate gank fest then. I once had a guy that was 10 levels higher than me camp my "corpse" just to kill me over and over again without any reward, just to be a jerk off. The PvE community is great though, and as soon as you ask a question you'll get 5 answers.
Now content in terms of story: This game is lacking, but the quests are fun and give you a real purpose to kill X amount of woodland beasts. Where the game really shines is in the mechanics department. There are so many things you can do it's ridiculous. Want to build a house on a piece of land that you staked out? Go right ahead. Ahoy matey! Build your own ships and sail the world. Gank lowbies if you feel like it. There's also a Diplomacy feature in the game that will actually change the world around you. Like if you think that a certain area is too infested with enemies, you can influence a local official to "spawn" more guards. It works kind of like a Magic the Gathering card game, except that you level up and get new cards the more you do it.
The game definitely needs some optimizations. This is especially true when lots of NPCs are nearby, like in a large city. The game renders NPCs in the direction you are facing, even if they are behind a wall. So when you're facing a large city gate it's rendering 100+ npcs behind it, causing your computer to chunk along.
Leveling is slow, but not a grind fest. The fastest way to level is by completing quests. This is made all the more hard by the fact that the world is HUGE and to get from A to B takes lots of time. This really applies at 9 and under, but at 10 you get your first mount. Some mounts even double as pack horses for extra loot. For me, the large world is a plus, because I like to explore.
*In closing:
Of the 3 you mentioned I would play vanguard. I know I'm one ofthe few willing to put up with sigil/verant/soe's bullshit but its just a cool game with lots of stuff to do.
I would recommend one you havent listed though. EverQuest 2. That game is fun. It's fast, has tons of content for all play styles (solo, raid, group, quester, roleplayer) etc. Most of my friends went from FFXI to that game and love it. The community is the best you'll find in an MMO. The graphics are gorgeous (though a little bland in the design department) and are very optimized. The scripted events will remind you of some of the FFXI cutscenes.
Everquest 2 unfortunately got a bad rep at launch, due to the game sucking balls. It's improved much, though unfortunately most people dont care haha.
Anyway, have fun with whatever you pick!
er no, vanguard is one game I would NEVER recommend. Anyone thinking of playing just head on over to the Vanguard forums and check out all the complaints....STILL.
No game that you pay for is worth that much grief.
The economy is not broken. It is just hard. The problem is people want the best of everything right now. I have been playing on my current server for 6 months and am lvl 58 and Just finished getting my B gear and have never bought gold. You have to play the market and craft which a lot of players don't want to do. L2 is a game about forming a comunity that lives and dies as a team. It is not a 1 on 1 PVP game. People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed. To find groups all you need to do is shout in one of the catecombs and someone will pick you up. Anyone who really plays the game for fun realizes that it is much more fun to hunt in a party then solo.
As far as the other games on the list I have played wow for two months but after experincing the comuity of L2 it just wasn't for me. I never had to group and when I did it was always with a differnt set of people. So if you are into more solo play then wow is probably a good choice. I like wow because it is a gate way mmo. It gives people who would not normally play a MMO a taste of what a MMO is. Some of these people move on to the more mature mmo's that are in the market. A lot of the new people I have met in L2 came from WOW.
The economy is not broken. It is just hard. The problem is people want the best of everything right now. I have been playing on my current server for 6 months and am lvl 58 and Just finished getting my B gear and have never bought gold. You have to play the market and craft which a lot of players don't want to do. L2 is a game about forming a comunity that lives and dies as a team. It is not a 1 on 1 PVP game. People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed. To find groups all you need to do is shout in one of the catecombs and someone will pick you up. Anyone who really plays the game for fun realizes that it is much more fun to hunt in a party then solo.
As far as the other games on the list I have played wow for two months but after experincing the comuity of L2 it just wasn't for me. I never had to group and when I did it was always with a differnt set of people. So if you are into more solo play then wow is probably a good choice. I like wow because it is a gate way mmo. It gives people who would not normally play a MMO a taste of what a MMO is. Some of these people move on to the more mature mmo's that are in the market. A lot of the new people I have met in L2 came from WOW.
I have to admit your post is a little insulting and implies that I am one of the gold buying whiners you've mentioned. " People who join the game for that and then lvl up a toon buying there stuff off of gold farmers are the ones that jump on these boards and complain about hard the economy or how there class got nerfed." This is not so. You've seriously been grinding for 6 months just to get to 58? The max level is 75 and then there are the class changes. 6 months is an unacceptable amount of time to me, especially since half of that grind was for the adena to get your b-grade gear. Now I dont want the fast "I got to 60 in 2 weeks!" leveling of WoW but what's the pay off? Lineage 2 doesnt have any other systems to keep it interesting unless you just want to log in and chat with people for a few hrs, which is fine, though you could do that and a lot more in other games. I had lots of fun grinding out raids, and I got from 1-40 in two weeks just doing that, but seriously after the lvl 35 class transfer I found that it was just grind grind grind without any real depth.
I still stick by the fact that the economy IS broken and was originally created as a time sink so that you dont power/level up too fast. The botters and adena farmers had a field day by exploiting the the fact that people cant stay logged in 24/7 like they can. So they grab all the raids people want at say 3am and, as I've said, sell all the gear for crazy prices, only to inflate the market more with their adena. It has no system of checks and balances and I'd guarantee that 3/5 members of your guild arent 100% legit because they wanted to remain competitive. I wasnt willing to commit to the endless grind, and you may consider that a fault, but it is also the reason I dont play. As I had ALSO mentioned, it's still one of the most fun games around.
So for the thread creator I'd also like to address "playing the market". Only one race can craft anything of use in the game, and that's the dwarves. Every time you craft or upgrade something there's a chance your components will be destroyed. Though this is realistic, it's not fun to lose your hard earned money on that a-grade armor you just ruined. This also means that the time you spend leveling up your crafting characters skills is taking away from the time you level up your main combat character if they are anything but a dwarf fighter class (the only thing they can be besides craftsman).
Now to simply invalidate my very valid observations is just silly, and I cant understand your need to defend a GAME by resorting to insulting insinuations. Again this is just one person's opinion and I very much respect yours.
Wait...so are you saying that you got to level 40 which you did it in 2 weeks (which most old players can do it in 1 week) and say this game is hard and that you are some kind of authority to how good/bad it is?
Like you said the level cap is 78.
When you get past 70, then you can talk about end game and then GRIND. Before level 70 there is NO grind. If you can't even handle playing a bit to actually achieve something in this game, this game wasn't meant for you.
Also, I am level 76+. I have gotten all my uber gear legit by playing the market and from those random drops in the game that are so rare. I have never resorted to botting/cheating/exploiting/scamming. You ARE able to play this game legit and reach the end content. It just comes down to, do you like the game enough to stick with it.
If your poor excuse is that you thought it was too hard after level 40...PFFFTT!!!
Stop and move on.
actually you did say you didn't recommend it while clearly recommending Vanguard, a game that is buggy as hell and one look at its forum would scare any avid gamer to the hills. You are obviously biased here, especially since you only reached level 40, which to me is pathetic. You think you can actually form an opinion on end game for Lineage 2 and complain about the "grind" when you didn't even get close to the end game? WTF are you spewing bullshit all over this thread for?
That's what I don't get.