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My Second (and last) Review of Vanguard
Cor4x
Member Posts: 241
A bit ago I wrote a scathing review of vanguard and what I felt were its many bugs.
Since then, a friend convinced me to continue playing, and so I did until today.
They fixed many of the things I complained about in my first review.
However, I’ll get to that in a bit.
Right now what I want to do is present a clear picture of how I feel the game plays until the beginning end-game.
(I played until 36 and 7 other characters to between 12 and 20, so I have some idea of the
game until mid-game.)
First the bad, then the good.
Vanguard is a game that will test your patience. I’ve played a LOT of games (won’t go into it, but three-quarters of the semi- and major releases since UO and MUDs before that), so I have an idea how these things work. I’ve never yelled at my screen before in anger or gotten a headache before playing this game.
Why is it so frustrating? It is a combination of little things:
Mobs add at irregular distances. Some add from a few feet and others from 20 feet or more making pulling annoying. Most classes cannot run (past level 10 or so), so an add = a trip to the shrine with no way out. Each shrine hit takes 2% if you recover your corpse or somewhere like 8% - 10% if you do not. This is around a 2 hour grind hit.
Most zones seem to have “grief mobs” which are usually in pairs and triple up or wildly out of level for the chunk. They patrol the likely pathways in the zone and kill you when you aren’t looking. Once you’re aware of them it gets better, but a level 29 griffon (for example) swooping down into level 12 areas to kill all the players in a quest nexus is just mean.
Mobs freakin reset sometimes if they aren’t hit constantly. This one really got to me. I’d spend 5 minutes burning a mob down and then it’d pop back to 100%. I’d have to kill it 2 or more times to get it to STAY DEAD.
Broken quests irritated me and other guildes to the point of pulling our hair out. The vast majority of quests worked just fine, but the broken ones really irked us.
Several of my abilities as a druid were broken: hibernate recently, stupid poison berries (still do not work), forage (which is useless and none of the goodies work until 35, when you find out they’re 1 – 5 minute buffs…), healing turn (which helpfully HEALS the damned MOB), wolf pack (which runs over a number of buffs, but looses its bonuses and speed bonus at the same time, while adding that arrooooo most druids know so well), and a few others. I felt forgotten if it weren’t for nerfs (levitate, hibernate (when they “fix” it), and lull).
The game was also … completely … boring. Raiding didn’t help. Diplomacy made it worse. Quests didn’t help. Soloing, which is the most efficient way to level (numbers afterward) is horrible for the best soloer in the game (druid). I couldn’t bring myself to grind very long with the others I tried.
So it was overall a frustrating experience for me. I never felt rewarded for playing or felt any sense of achievement even though I went through 72% of the game. I sat there grinding yet another mob and just /quit… I was done.
Now for the good:
For first time mmorpgers, Vanguard provides a healthy progression up to level 20 for solo players and around 30ish for groupers. After this, the game really begins to become interesting as the player branches out into other continents and begins to understand the scope of the world.
While the quests are placed as a treadmill, one can travel to different continents and do other quest lines as well.
For the solo-majority player, the solo quests can easily level the character through 20. Then they begin to thin out as they become more small-group and group quests.
Alternately, some characters can solo small-group quests. (Cleric, necro, bard, ranger, and druid to varying degrees.)
Mobs are populated throughout the chunks in easy to understand layers, so one can just find a chunk with appropriate level mobs and explore or grind.
Mob drops aren’t too stingy and money is not overly easy or overly hard to come by. I’d say they have that one just right.
Useful drops occur at a decent but not overdone (DDO, anyone) level.
There is a good bit to see and do if one likes to harvest and craft. The crafted goods are adequate and on par with most drops. Harvesting is doable and not nearly as contested as EQ2. Also, the addition of harvesting and crafting gear is kinda cool. Initially I frowned at the idea of 4 different sets of equipment (diplomacy, adventuring, crafting, and harvesting all have different sets), but later it seemed neat enough.
The classes offer different abilities with a play style that is constant from around 10 – 12 to 50. The classes are different enough that each one actually plays differently, unlike many games.
Grouping dynamics are traditional and familiar to other games: 1+ tanks, 1+ healers, 1+ DPS classes either light-fighters or casters. Non-traditional groups are possible, but not usually done.
“Finishing” moves, which really only do some additional damage, add a little flavor to the push-button whack-mob style of combat prevalent in ALL of today’s mmorpgs.
There are flying and riding mounts. I was beginning the quest for a flying mount and did a quest that lets you fly a mount for a (REALLY) short period of time. They were cool (and necessary given the distances traveled) additions to the game.
Housing looked cool, but I never saw one. I have no idea if anyone has one on flamehammer yet.
Boats looked cool. I saw one on flamehammer with some guy from vengeance driving it. It was super-fast. (Something like 400% or so I’d imagine.)
Leveling is on a flat system whereby time grinding on even con mobs is roughly the same from 10 to 36 and seemed that way to 50. (Numbers hereafter.)
All in all, the game’s got potential.
Right now it is buggy, laggy, and only partially formed with classes, abilities, and core playing experience still in flux.
People on flamehammer are having critical problems finding groups and a lot of areas are deserted. Some people sit for hours shouting for groups. (I don’t. I solo mostly, so it was all good for me.)
If they add teleporters to the major cities and outposts (like brad talked about to solve the grouping problem), it’d dim the game down. Travel was one of the things that made the game unique.
I couldn’t recommend this game to anyone to play currently. In a year or so it might be worth taking a look at.
I won’t because I don’t give games a second chance.
That being said, I don’t feel I was ripped off. The game provided adequate entertainment for the amount of time it did.
Numbers in Part 2...
Comments
Now for some numbers: (Note: These numbers are not good or bad. I thought leveling was slightly too fast, but provide these so others can see how leveling goes as I experienced it.)
I used core-ui which had the value of its control at the bottom from 0 to 2000. When the control reached 2000, you had reached a new level.
This gave me an objective way to gage my progress through the levels. As a druid, I was also blessed with the ability to solo yellow and red 4x mobs.
An even-con yellow 2x mob was 2 points, meaning 1000 would be required to level.
A yellow 3x mob was 6-7 points, meaning 334 were required to level.
A yellow 4x mob was 14 points, meaning 143 were required to level.
Blue 2x mobs were worth 1 point, Blue 3x mobs were worth 3-4 points.
Green 3x mobs were worth 1 point or so. Green 2x mobs were pretty much worthless.
Red and purple mobs used to give good xp, but the other night they were giving 1xp each making them worthless kills. (Example: I soloed and duoed several 2x level 40 crawlers and got 1/2000 each. Likewise with several red 3x treants.)
When grouped, it seemed as if a flat group bonus of around 20% was added and then divided by the number of people in the group such that: in a 6 person group, killing a yellow 4x mob was worth roughly 2.8 points meaning 714 were required to level.
Quest experience was worth somewhere between 20 and 120 points depending heavily on the quest. Group quests were worth more.
Timewise, my druid could kill a 4x yellow mob in around 4 minutes. 4x143 = 572 minutes chain-killing or 9.5h for a complete level.
Duoing with a necro, those same mobs went down right at 2 minutes and ~ 8 each. So (2000 / 8) * 2 = 500 minutes for a level or a savings of an hour.
In a group of six, they went down right around 30 seconds. Bringing us back to around 6 hours for a level. However, in practice this took much longer (say twice as long) given coordination and getting groups together, slack time, deaths, and so on.
For 2x mobs, this would take right at 60 seconds to kill, bringing someone soloing yellow mobs to 1000 minutes per level or around 16 hours.
Loot cash-wise was better soloing 2x mobs and gear-wise soloing 4x mobs.
Some classes are better at soloing than a druid and kill faster. Some are slower. This would be reflected in the times above. A ranger or necro can solo faster than a druid but they die more often. (I think when I quit I was somewhere near 60 kills / death or so.)
Wow, very impressed with the second part.
4 minute fights! that's crazy, and sounds like fun.
Very respectable review. At wich part of you're leveling progress did you run into most of your bugs?
I have noticed the agro thing, but mostly just in dungeons. There seems to be something up with the way that mobs will detect you or decide to jump in the fight. I'm wondering if it's a bug or if there is some sort of design in it. I thought I saw soemthing on the test server nots about the coloring of mob names getting a slight change to show if the mob is agro and sees you or if it's agro and doesn't see you. Could be that this is what is happening, but I don't know; I'm just guessing.
They've (resetting mobs) happened off and on since around level 22. I think it has something to do with kiting. I levitate and kite the mob around dotting it, so it might be that I get too far ahead. I noticed it happened more often when I dotted the mob without using my pet for constant dps. It also seems to happen more since they fixed ghost-hitting of us poor levitating druids.
On another note, I could mem-wipe mobs by just rooting them and running out of range. They would reset and go home.
Mobs do agro based on facing. If they see another mob (or you for that matter) or they "hear" you (being under 10f) then they agro. I've pulled mobs that are social 2ft from each other and had them not agro because they couldn't see each other.
In dungeons I think the mobs see through doors. At least they don't agro through walls ala EQ1.
And those 4 minute fights... hehe they seemed to take forever. Venomous Thorns V, Wild Growth III, Ensnare II, err Pet... then VT, WG, and Ensnare until dead. Tap to 100 and go again. I'd just run in circles until it died.
If it had to be fought in place, I could just cast Piercing Roots V(?) and it would just stand in place. Every 6 ticks recast and it would never move. Hardly ever resisted. It would just stand there and die. I regained more mana than the spell took over time, so I would end up with full mana. The down side was it seemed to take forever. (It'd probably take 8 minutes to cook a 4x to death so I never did that if at all possible!)
I used to use it when in tight corners like dungeons.
Im not a big fan of the leashing system, but this is the system that you encountered and call "resetting mobs."
It was implemented to stop players training on each other but it certainly interferes with caster playstyle. It isnt always possible to kite in a figure 8, but it is recommended so you can avoid (or reduce) those occurrences of mobs reaching the end of their leash and resetting,
People whine about not being able to solo...then you walk up to em and check their gear and it is outrageously BAD.
Granted I get a lot of my gear from a guildy who is a blacksmith (I gather the mats) and he makes me stuff...but that is just plain good use of the game mechanics....
I was like I should be a miner and the blacksmiths will be able to make things at little cost for me... I just used common sense to attain the goal of always having good gear.
Granted all I can speak for is warriors as it is the only class I have played ...
If people want to whine about soloing ... take a look at your gear .... it makes a world of difference.
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
Who are you implying should be listened to, and not listened to. Should only the opinions of the people tht VG didn't agree with be the only opinion tha people should follow, or the opinion of those that like the kind of game VG is? You try so hard to liberate the poor misinformed gamers on this site; who have been suckered into playing a game that they enjoy. You make posts like you want to free people of the strings of poor developement; when in truth you're simply tying to convince people to become puppets of a different sort. Specifally puppets of the self righteous gamer that crusades for industry change on a game forum dedicated the game of the big bad empire you attempt to tople.
The responce the OP gave to the very post you quoted can be aplied to you Markaj just as well as the original poster. As far as I'm aware you have never played this game, at least the retail version, but feel compelled to tell others that they shouldn't spend money on it. So really Markaj, who is trying to be the puppet master here. You with your holey crusade against the game developement industry, wich took root shortly after the release of VG, or Sigil, a software cmpany who's sole purpose is to create a game that people will enjoy and make some money in the process?
How many emails have you written to software companies, how many editiorials have you written on gaming sites, how many petitions have you begun, how much time do you spend lobying on sites of games that don't meet your standards of a perfect release? Do you really think that you're silly little, egotistical, self grandising, and complete BS signature is tying more strings to the tips of your fingers and growing an army of angry gamers that will march arcross the world and restore order?
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
In order to make up their minds, they will have to spend money and time and try the game. My word is to those considering whether they should! I highly recommend that they would find a buddy key. But if they can't, that they would wait for a trial version. I don't recommend that they would waste money and time just to make up their minds as it might be irreversible.
I have ignored the rest of the post as it involves insulting gibberish.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
In order to make up their minds, they will have to spend money and time and try the game. My word is to those considering whether they should! I highly recommend that they would find a buddy key. But if they can't, that they would wait for a trial version. I don't recommend that they would waste money and time just to make up their minds as it might be irreversible.
I have ignored the rest of the post as it involves insulting gibberish.
Pretty much right on and I was about to say almost the same thing. There is no free trial right now and though I've been offered a couple of buddy keys, why try a game that, according to many reports, I will find frustrating and is a pretty tumultuous state right now?
By the time the free trial rolls around, perhaps the optimization for computer that are close to the minimum specs will be in, most bugs will be squashed and perhaps many of the features that were promised on release will be in.
That is the time that Brad should be on the pulpits preaching the game. I believe he should'nt be doing it now, because all he ends up doing is apologizing for the game. That seems to act like blood in the water for sharks. The disappointed Vanguard fans or Vanguard haters go into a feeding frenzy.
I for one won't pony up $50.00 to try a game that was'nt ready for release and promised features aren't in.
Of course, when I DO try the game, I might be disappointed at the newbie zones by then if people aren't joining the game. Perhaps though, many people will be like me and just be waiting on the sidelines for this game to at least partially fulfill it's promise.
And no more buddy keys please. I really do mean it. I won't try a game in this condition. It wouldn't be a fair assessment.
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
I will say that is one of the most impressive reviews I have seen to date, very nice job
I hope Sigil gets thier act together because this game has great potential to be something. I do not play it right now because of the problems you stated but I will leave it on the computer and check back occasionaly to see where they are at. Their biggest problem right now is to try and keep the people they do have playing to give them enough time to fix what needs to be fixed.
Those that are still playing, well i have to give it to them because even though I see the potential of the game I just couldnt continue playing it the way it is.
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
In order to make up their minds, they will have to spend money and time and try the game. My word is to those considering whether they should! I highly recommend that they would find a buddy key. But if they can't, that they would wait for a trial version. I don't recommend that they would waste money and time just to make up their minds as it might be irreversible.
I have ignored the rest of the post as it involves insulting gibberish.
No. I'm refering to a much deeper issue then you. You believe that a group of peoples are niave for every TRYING the game to begin with. That by spending money on something they may like is a crime in the gaming industry.
But you have shown that you don't know what you are attempting to stand for with this responce. I thought I was pretty clear with my post.
Makig up your mind to PURCHASE something, and whether or not you like something are 2 dif. issues. What I took up with you was, who are you to tell others NOT to purchase something. You don't attempt to inform anyone of VG, you only twist things into whatever light shines best for your cause.
And the fact that you talk the talk but don't walk the walk. How many emails have you sent? Were are the editorials critisizing dev. studios for releasing games with bugs, blah blah blah blah. I've said in several posts already.
It's called being a poser Markaj, it's like acting like a gangsta or hardass when you're not. Put up or shut up man, get them posts going in the general discusion room so we can leave the VG forums for VG, shoot them emails out and start making them phonecalls to magazines and websites.
You only care that you didn't like VG, it was released early and you can make a sig that will get peoples attention and give you a platform to twist information. Grats! You won.
if you consider this an attack so be it. Perhaps you should consider what you put as your sig, real big, in standout letters.
Edit: And how would you know what I wrote to call it insulting gibberish if you didn't read it? Me thinks you fibbed.
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
In order to make up their minds, they will have to spend money and time and try the game. My word is to those considering whether they should! I highly recommend that they would find a buddy key. But if they can't, that they would wait for a trial version. I don't recommend that they would waste money and time just to make up their minds as it might be irreversible.
I have ignored the rest of the post as it involves insulting gibberish.
No. I'm refering to a much deeper issue then you. You believe that a group of peoples are niave for every TRYING the game to begin with. That by spending money on something they may like is a crime in the gaming industry.
But you have shown that you don't know what you are attempting to stand for with this responce. I thought I was pretty clear with my post.
Makig up your mind to PURCHASE something, and whether or not you like something are 2 dif. issues. What I took up with you was, who are you to tell others NOT to purchase something. You don't attempt to inform anyone of VG, you only twist things into whatever light shines best for your cause.
And the fact that you talk the talk but don't walk the walk. How many emails have you sent? Were are the editorials critisizing dev. studios for releasing games with bugs, blah blah blah blah. I've said in several posts already.
It's called being a poser Markaj, it's like acting like a gangsta or hardass when you're not. Put up or shut up man, get them posts going in the general discusion room so we can leave the VG forums for VG, shoot them emails out and start making them phonecalls to magazines and websites.
You only care that you didn't like VG, it was released early and you can make a sig that will get peoples attention and give you a platform to twist information. Grats! You won.
if you consider this an attack so be it. Perhaps you should consider what you put as your sig, real big, in standout letters.
Edit: And how would you know what I wrote to call it insulting gibberish if you didn't read it? Me thinks you fibbed.
I was going to say something, but i'm fresh off a 7 day ban. Just because I told someone I thought they had a screw loose in their head. Faiirc your post is just silly at best. He isn't even telling people not to play and/or try the game. He is simply saying instead of making a hasty purchase (whether they can afford it or not), isn't the only option. Notice that his post he clearly suggest that people get a Buddy Key or wait for a Trial Version. Honestly getting a Buddy key or doing a Trial is a better option then wasting money on a game that you can't be sure you'll like.
You don't even bother to really address his post. You just start ranting and babbling with comments that are pretty irrelevant to his post. It's almost like you didn't even bother to read his post. I've read his post 5 times now. No where do I see him suggesting that people are naive or that they shouldn't try Vanguard.
As for your edit I think you are mis-reading what he meant with ignoring. I believe he is merely stating that he will not bother to respond to that part of your post. As it is nothing more then "insulting gibberish".
As much as it pains me to say this. I do agree with Brad on one point he's made so far since Vanguards release. It's the fans of the game that are chasing people away, and scaring off potential customers. I mean would anyone really want to try Vanguard after seeing how people like Fariic reaction to criticism of their chosen game.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
And sometimes, when you ignore people whom you are supposed to listen and listen to whom you should ignore, you would end up sorely frustrated with loss of cash and valuable time. VG is such a game.
So VG is the sort of game you shouldn't be making your own mind up about? The implication you are making is that becuase it's a game, or just because it's VG, that people should be basing thier disire to play it soley on the the opinion provided from others that play/ played it.
In order to make up their minds, they will have to spend money and time and try the game. My word is to those considering whether they should! I highly recommend that they would find a buddy key. But if they can't, that they would wait for a trial version. I don't recommend that they would waste money and time just to make up their minds as it might be irreversible.
I have ignored the rest of the post as it involves insulting gibberish.
No. I'm refering to a much deeper issue then you. You believe that a group of peoples are niave for every TRYING the game to begin with. That by spending money on something they may like is a crime in the gaming industry.
But you have shown that you don't know what you are attempting to stand for with this responce. I thought I was pretty clear with my post.
Makig up your mind to PURCHASE something, and whether or not you like something are 2 dif. issues. What I took up with you was, who are you to tell others NOT to purchase something. You don't attempt to inform anyone of VG, you only twist things into whatever light shines best for your cause.
And the fact that you talk the talk but don't walk the walk. How many emails have you sent? Were are the editorials critisizing dev. studios for releasing games with bugs, blah blah blah blah. I've said in several posts already.
It's called being a poser Markaj, it's like acting like a gangsta or hardass when you're not. Put up or shut up man, get them posts going in the general discusion room so we can leave the VG forums for VG, shoot them emails out and start making them phonecalls to magazines and websites.
You only care that you didn't like VG, it was released early and you can make a sig that will get peoples attention and give you a platform to twist information. Grats! You won.
if you consider this an attack so be it. Perhaps you should consider what you put as your sig, real big, in standout letters.
Edit: And how would you know what I wrote to call it insulting gibberish if you didn't read it? Me thinks you fibbed.
I was going to say something, but i'm fresh off a 7 day ban. Just because I told someone I thought they had a screw loose in their head. Faiirc your post is just silly at best. He isn't even telling people not to play and/or try the game. He is simply saying instead of making a hasty purchase (whether they can afford it or not), isn't the only option. Notice that his post he clearly suggest that people get a Buddy Key or wait for a Trial Version. Honestly getting a Buddy key or doing a Trial is a better option then wasting money on a game that you can't be sure you'll like.
You don't even bother to really address his post. You just start ranting and babbling with comments that are pretty irrelevant to his post. It's almost like you didn't even bother to read his post. I've read his post 5 times now. No where do I see him suggesting that people are naive or that they shouldn't try Vanguard.
As for your edit I think you are mis-reading what he meant with ignoring. I believe he is merely stating that he will not bother to respond to that part of your post. As it is nothing more then "insulting gibberish".
As much as it pains me to say this. I do agree with Brad on one point he's made so far since Vanguards release. It's the fans of the game that are chasing people away, and scaring off potential customers. I mean would anyone really want to try Vanguard after seeing how people like Fariic reaction to criticism of their chosen game.
What you are trying to say is very correct as far people have many outlets to gather information on VG.
Sometimes the point of his posts get lost to me behind the giant wall of orange text in wich he calls thousand upon thousands of gamers naive. I would assume that with a sig like that that he is not just talking about VG when he posts. And, I'm well in my right to believe and say this because he chose to display his opinion in a giant sig that overshadows the small white writing of his posts. Because when he comes into a thread tipically does so with small obscure bits of writting that never really carry and kind of fact with them. He created that sig and started posting it after VG went live. He protested he displeasure with Sigil and VG a month ago. And uses the sig not to make implications. I'm qute able to read between the lines. If he didn' t want it to attrack attention it wouldn't be written in a larger font, and colored so it would stand out when he posted, regardless of what he posts; he doesn't contribute to threads for the sake of contributing.
I would say go ahead and check out his post history, not suprisingly the only one you see is his drivel about LoTRO in a VG forum.