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Goodbye mmorpg.com...

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  • DundeeDundee Member Posts: 233
    Originally posted by severius

    Then of course there is the 900 lb gorilla in the room, that does a good job hiding in the shadows :P.  Bioware!  They have Jeff Vogel and other UO originals working on the project.  Could there be a new sand box game?  One with Bioware's story telling ability????  We have to wait and see, and probably wont see much for another year or so :'(



    Rich Vogel. Jeff is the shareware guy.



    Oh, but are you' boycotting former SWG devs, too?



    Every MMO studio in Austin is pretty likely to have ex-SWG devs on it.



  • RekrulRekrul Member Posts: 2,961
    Originally posted by Dundee



    Just talking off-the-cuff, there: Thinking if character advancement must always be either class-levels or skills... it's like living in a universe with only two colors.  Seems like you could at least mix them.



    Off the top of my head, the obvious four first:


    Classes
    Skills
    Both
    None - the character doesn't advance: it's not that crazy when you consider how many people hit the maximum level and keep playing anyway, with no character advancement. Guild Wars is nearly there.
    Token-collection: Tangible objects you can collect and trade, or use; which do what skills/levels do now.
    Character-collection: Rather than leveling-up one character, you unlock new higher-level characters, which don't level-up either.
    Off-character advancement: You advance in whatever is important to the game (money, faction, sex appeal, mySpace friends, whatever), rather than advancing the skills and abilities of your avatar.

    ...ok, nothing that radical. Heh.



    Animal Crossing on the DS is already an MMO: you mostly advance by paying off your debt, completing collections, and playing consecutive days.



    Well, the only MMO I play these days is indeed GW. Levels = tutorial, 1-2 hours, then it's free for all.



    Not ideal, but it does present many problems. If you take the grind out of MMO, what's left?



    GW for one suffers from no community spirit.



    But the non-WoW is by all means something that doesn't contain advancement. It has its own share of problems, perhaps the most notable one is the ability to create enough apealing content.



    I consider money to be nice orthogonal aproach to leveling. It's shared across characters and it's accumulated by player, not bound to character.



    Achievements aren't bad either, the x-box live system seems to be viable. Once again, it places player upfront, not the character.



    MMOs will evenetually need to realize, that they cater to the player. What makes sense in single player games (advancing a character) is merely grind in MMOs. Emphasizing player would be the way to go.



    SimCity could be said to use this aproach.



    But none of these is the silver bullet. Those, to whom the grind is the only apeal will seek only that. But I'd be willing to bet that it's not designing such game that's the problem, but a business model. Grind-based achievements makes those $14.99 a month seem very apealing.



    What would be the apeal of free-for-all games? Community? Social aspects? Will the like-minded players prevail, or will the few bad seeds be enough to destroy the community?
  • DundeeDundee Member Posts: 233
    Originally posted by Dvol

    Wasnt SWG a mix of levels and skills? i recall before the CU a dev stated that the levels were there just hidden?See i dont mind that just how it appears to the gamer i suppose...


    Sort of.



    Just about all skill systems have "levels" behind the scene, if they increase character power at all. Even if the game system never explicitly does all the math to figure it out.



    And all class systems have "skills", if characters gain new abilities as they level up. The difference is you don't usually get to choose which skill to pick next.



    But in broad terms, "Class-n-levels" are the D&D type games, where you pick a class, earn XP (usually), and gain a level when you have earned enough. The player's focus is on ding'ing that level, so even a game where you pick a class, level up, and then choose a new skill at each level
    would be considered a class-n-level system (maybe like, from a class-list, or in fact as in D&D 3rd).  But if you're playing to advance your level, and new skills happen as a side-effect, most would categorize that as a class-n-level game.



    By contrast, skill systems are like UO and old-SWG: the player's focus is on earning the next skill. In SWG that might also increase your "level", but in reverse the above, the level up was a side-effect of skill gain.


    *skills-i think your confusing skills with skill points.I rather enjoyed being able to spend those points anywere i wanted..That had alot of content for me when i got bored with my current *Build*skills are in wow ie your back ground weapons and such gain in skill.Let me make sure were on the same page..when we say we want skills i guess we should add skill points to spend as we see fit.But your given x-amount no more no less..i

    Ah... I was just speaking broadly, here... not about any specific sort of implementation.

    *both-hmm if you could answer the first line i think SWG was both?

    Various systems needed a number that they could compare to a creature's level (or another player's number), so one was calculated on-the-fly based on what skills you had with your currently-equipped weapon. Internally it was called "combat level".



    Different sort of thing than a character's level in a D&D type game. In those, for example, your combat skill (such as chance to hit) is calculated based on your level. SWG did the reverse, so your level was calculated based on your combat skill.

    *none-player wont feel like he accomplished something-None is kinda the shooter fps crowd-Im not the crowd that system is looking for..

    Shooter FPs... Or Second Life... Maybe Puzzle Pirates?

    Simple but no one out there in Dev land can do such a game since wow came along and Dumbed it all back down..Now all the suits Scream Build me a WoWCLone i mean Killer make it so they will come drool and all..

    There'll always be a type of game that "everyone" is chasing (and probably EQ/WoW-type game), but there'll be other sorts, too.
  • suskesuske Member Posts: 714
    fallen earth is my only hope for mmo gaming right now.
  • DundeeDundee Member Posts: 233
    Originally posted by suske

    fallen earth is my only hope for mmo gaming right now.
    Whatever happened to ah... I can't remember the name of it. One canceled pretty late in development, some fans were trying to raise money to buy the rights and release it OpenSource?
  • Lunchbox76Lunchbox76 Member Posts: 294

    You might be thinking of Twilight War, which I think found an investor, but I havent seen any new news since. Its still listed on the Game List.

    Playing Fallen Earth.

  • DvolDvol Member Posts: 273
    Originally posted by Dundee

    Originally posted by suske

    fallen earth is my only hope for mmo gaming right now.
    Whatever happened to ah... I can't remember the name of it. One canceled pretty late in development, some fans were trying to raise money to buy the rights and release it OpenSource?



    Firefly maybe?

    Fallen Earth sounds good on paper and in videos but the gameplay will factor in for me..But it does show the most promise so far other than LOTR.Dont get me wrong LOTR will appeal to fans and such(im in beta now) But its just the same as EQ clone we have had since well EQ..That may or may not be a bad thing for some but for me it has nothing in it that makes me want to keep a grinding

     Since i cant play the old system anymore i really wished a dev team would at least look at SWG's good parts and see thats what made the game so popular 2 years after its death..I mean who wouldnt want the choice to be any profession you wanted.I mean how cool was it if you wanted to just be social you could entertain?Who wouldve thunk that wouldve had a large following?I never did but alot of players did. if you think about it what does most vets say they loved about SWG? It was its combat system its skill system and of course its crafting system. The number one thing for me was the profession system and the be want i wanted to be aspects of it.

    I like choices to do as i want like we had then..Im sure some developer somewere will make it one day.Cause eventually all those 7 mill players will get bored..And then what? more of the same or something that gave you choices to change do or be what oyu wanted at anytime..I think until that game comes along ill stick to the single player games..

     But i guess im a niche  player funny i never knew diablo 2 in 3d(what i call WoW) wouldve had such success as it did..Same blizz formula they have used for years..Just some enjoy it more than others..Nothing wrong with liking a simple polished game, i just get bored to easy i suppose.Only game ive ever stuck with over a year was the old galaxies../shrug wished id never bought that darn game it ruined me

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,639
    Originally posted by Dundee

    Originally posted by suske

    fallen earth is my only hope for mmo gaming right now.
    Whatever happened to ah... I can't remember the name of it. One canceled pretty late in development, some fans were trying to raise money to buy the rights and release it OpenSource?



    I know what you're talking about, it had to do with elves and it was sandbox based. I had the link at one time. As far as I know it's still being worked on.


  • FignarFignar Member CommonPosts: 417
    Originally posted by Dvol

    Originally posted by Dundee

    Originally posted by Dvol

    Now i think the MMO world may revert back to Skills and player choices of what they want to be.



    Yeah, and more radical designs than that.

    Care to elaborate on what you think those radical designs MAY be?


    Just talking off-the-cuff, there: Thinking if character advancement must always be either class-levels or skills... it's like living in a universe with only two colors.  Seems like you could at least mix them.



    Off the top of my head, the obvious four first:
    • Classes
    • Skills
    • Both
    • None - the character doesn't advance: it's not that crazy when you consider how many people hit the maximum level and keep playing anyway, with no character advancement. Guild Wars is nearly there.
    • Token-collection: Tangible objects you can collect and trade, or use; which do what skills/levels do now.
    • Character-collection: Rather than leveling-up one character, you unlock new higher-level characters, which don't level-up either.
    • Off-character advancement: You advance in whatever is important to the game (money, faction, sex appeal, mySpace friends, whatever), rather than advancing the skills and abilities of your avatar.

    ...ok, nothing that radical. Heh.



    Animal Crossing on the DS is already an MMO: you mostly advance by paying off your debt, completing collections, and playing consecutive days.



    Wasnt SWG a mix of levels and skills? i recall before the CU a dev stated that the levels were there just hidden?See i dont mind that just how it appears to the gamer i suppose...

    *skills-i think your confusing skills with skill points.I rather enjoyed being able to spend those points anywere i wanted..That had alot of content for me when i got bored with my current *Build*skills are in wow ie your back ground weapons and such gain in skill.Let me make sure were on the same page..when we say we want skills i guess we should add skill points to spend as we see fit.But your given x-amount no more no less..i

    *Levels-Hmm i just personally think its all in how its used..we have had these systems for ages now..But i guess in the right combo and not to limit me to what i can do within the game..ie have to be level 50 to fight lvl 49 stuff..And i dont want to be pigeon holed into one thing my whole time in a game and be just like everyone else..with SWG type system you had to have the right armor buffs weapon and template..alot of things resisted certain damage types..but even a lowbie could help or do things he just had to be cautious..and i saw many with no masteries in their builds do some things that a level based system wouldnt let them..Have fun at any level and player choices..

    *Oh and im not against FPS combat either or a mix of timed like the old SWG..But i think when you over mix genres you either come out as the best game ever or the biggest pile of poo..I think if you had a game with basic professions elite ones then Master proffesions(masters being the Alpha classes shh not everyone wants balance)I prefer being able to be better than anyone else.Not saying i have to be but given the options of it..

    *both-hmm if you could answer the first line i think SWG was both?

    *none-player wont feel like he accomplished something-None is kinda the shooter fps crowd-Im not the crowd that system is looking for..

    I think if a MMO would just sit down and say well we have Professions and you have the choice of being any or a mix of any.It doesnt have to be Scifi i think id actually play a fantasy game if it had that type of system..An example would be say i wanted to become a Slayer of dragons..to get there i would need X parts from warrior trees x from Swordmaster x from Priest then id unlock the Elite Dragon warrior trees..See mucho more options even in a fantasy setting...For the scifi crowd the skill trees would be a advantage cause scifi can mean so many different things to so many different people..I think mixing classes and the only limits are skill points that right their is alot of content..And for petes sake dont balance a game solely on PVP, its widely known 80% of players pve and i swear Balance isnt a problem when each profession has strengths and weaknesses..Simple but no one out there in Dev land can do such a game since wow came along and Dumbed it all back down..Now all the suits Scream Build me a WoWCLone i mean Killer make it so they will come drool and all..

    SWG wasn't level based as in the EQ, EQ2, WoW, VGSOH, AO sort of style. Where the damage you dish out or a mob deals is based on a mathematical formula so the damage dealt by a mob constantly changes vs a player of lvl X for instance. So the higher the level of the mob and the lower the level of the player the more damage it does so in the end regardless if you have the " sword of a thousand truths" which is the most uber weapon in the game if you're not high enough level you will not kill a mob which is 5 levels above you, regardless what items you have. This is why games which rely on this BS style of levels are restrictive and just seem so linear.



    SWG on the other hand had mobs which were assigned level groups and their damage was fixed so regardless if you were a novice marksman or a master rifleman a mob with a level say of 15 did the exact same damage through those 2 extremes. The end result was that player skills, your items such as armour, weapons, foods and buffs had a major impact on your ability to kill things. This is why SWG pre-cu was different to anything out at that time and at the moment.

    Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200

  • Irish003Irish003 Member Posts: 55

    I feel the same as most of you, that everthing is stale right now. That being said there is hope. There's a new game and engine being made as we speak, it's called Project Offset. I believe there is promise here. From what I'v been able to find out this engine is truly next-gen, it well make it far more cheaper for someone to create a game from scratch. Example: Say you have a model with millions of polygons, said engine can take that model and produce the same detail using only thousands of polygons to create it. That's not the only thing this engine can do, to learn more go to projectoffset.com. Even though this is far from consumer ready it gives me hope because smaller groups and creative teams will have an easier time bringing life to there projects, which translates to more choice for us the consumer.

    Rebel Col. Moshi Manawitz-Master Commando/Master Smuggler/Master Pilot-Pre NGE Vet.-Server:Chilistra-
    RIP April 04-Jan 06

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,639
    Originally posted by Irish003


    I feel the same as most of you, that everthing is stale right now. That being said there is hope. There's a new game and engine being made as we speak, it's called Project Offset. I believe there is promise here. From what I'v been able to find out this engine is truly next-gen, it well make it far more cheaper for someone to create a game from scratch. Example: Say you have a model with millions of polygons, said engine can take that model and produce the same detail using only thousands of polygons to create it. That's not the only thing this engine can do, to learn more go to projectoffset.com. Even though this is far from consumer ready it gives me hope because smaller groups and creative teams will have an easier time bringing life to there projects, which translates to more choice for us the consumer.
    I remember seeing this, the project to make the best fraken game engine eva. This is trully NEXT GEN!


  • Irish003Irish003 Member Posts: 55
    Originally posted by tillamook

    Originally posted by Irish003


    I feel the same as most of you, that everthing is stale right now. That being said there is hope. There's a new game and engine being made as we speak, it's called Project Offset. I believe there is promise here. From what I'v been able to find out this engine is truly next-gen, it well make it far more cheaper for someone to create a game from scratch. Example: Say you have a model with millions of polygons, said engine can take that model and produce the same detail using only thousands of polygons to create it. That's not the only thing this engine can do, to learn more go to projectoffset.com. Even though this is far from consumer ready it gives me hope because smaller groups and creative teams will have an easier time bringing life to there projects, which translates to more choice for us the consumer.
    I remember seeing this, the project to make the best fraken game engine eva. This is trully NEXT GEN!

    I really do think this will be the dawn of next-gen games, the engine has limitless potential. And the game their making looks pretty damn good, even though I'm not an fps or big fantasy fan I see things I like from the Project Offset camp. Just wish they would update more often.

    Rebel Col. Moshi Manawitz-Master Commando/Master Smuggler/Master Pilot-Pre NGE Vet.-Server:Chilistra-
    RIP April 04-Jan 06

  • rioiskrioisk Member Posts: 15

    Just play Neverwinter Nights 2. If you are a good developer and scripter it is in essense totally customizable. DnD based combat and skill system. Great graphics and like SWG doesn't have a jump button (LMFAO).

    It's what I'm doing atm creating my own PW.

  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Member Posts: 5,615
    Originally posted by Dundee

    Originally posted by suske

    fallen earth is my only hope for mmo gaming right now.
    Whatever happened to ah... I can't remember the name of it. One canceled pretty late in development, some fans were trying to raise money to buy the rights and release it OpenSource?



    Wish, ryzom?

    ----------
    "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me

    "No, your wrong.." - Random user #123

    "Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.

    How are you?" -Me

  • TheSliderTheSlider Member Posts: 46

    Can I have your stuff?

     

  • dalevi1dalevi1 Member Posts: 829
    I have to agree with the OP somewhat. The current crop of new MMO's are weak to say it best. To address a few of the comments on in the thread, and I am not trying to be snarky:



    1) Fallen earth looks like a cross between MxO and Neocron 2. I see very little here to be excited about, other than I hope the little guy does well.



    2) LoTR is little more than a themed WoW instance so far. I mean, it is a good looking game, but their plans for PvP are simply limiting the long term playability unless they plan to release expansions every two months for a year, the shut down because they are out of Tok material. I don't want to say that their approach to pvp is bad, because it really is a nice twist of sort, but in an mmorpg you identify with your avatar. They have made it clear that player run MOBs are not avatars. Which makes me think perhaps they will be the insta-grata the pwd's will want to play.



    (Note: I am not, nor have I ever been a big pvp player, but I do recognize it's utility in game.)



    3) Tabula Rasa still looks interesting to me, but their act of abandoning player housing is a huge disappointment. Instanced barracks would have been enough for me, but instead they decided to pawn it off to "it's a war, there are no houses in war." This was simply a cop-out by a company that has yet to ever implement housing in their games. The rest of the game *does* look 'good', but I am wondering what else is going to hit the cutting room floor.



    4) SWG -

    Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.

    Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside

    Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.

  • AfroPuffAfroPuff Member Posts: 207
    Originally posted by dalevi1

    I have to agree with the OP somewhat. The current crop of new MMO's are weak to say it best. To address a few of the comments on in the thread, and I am not trying to be snarky:



    1) Fallen earth looks like a cross between MxO and Neocron 2. I see very little here to be excited about, other than I hope the little guy does well.



    2) LoTR is little more than a themed WoW instance so far. I mean, it is a good looking game, but their plans for PvP are simply limiting the long term playability unless they plan to release expansions every two months for a year, the shut down because they are out of Tok material. I don't want to say that their approach to pvp is bad, because it really is a nice twist of sort, but in an mmorpg you identify with your avatar. They have made it clear that player run MOBs are not avatars. Which makes me think perhaps they will be the insta-grata the pwd's will want to play.



    (Note: I am not, nor have I ever been a big pvp player, but I do recognize it's utility in game.)



    3) Tabula Rasa still looks interesting to me, but their act of abandoning player housing is a huge disappointment. Instanced barracks would have been enough for me, but instead they decided to pawn it off to "it's a war, there are no houses in war." This was simply a cop-out by a company that has yet to ever implement housing in their games. The rest of the game *does* look 'good', but I am wondering what else is going to hit the cutting room floor.



    4) SWG -



    Problem for me is, like many here, I just can't find a mmorpg Virtual World that makes me want to jump in and immerse.  Dragons and elves great, but I get my fix for that with the occasional movie.

    image
    SWG Team Mtg.

  • Veiled_lightVeiled_light Member UncommonPosts: 800
    I'm now 31 so it is weird reading this post :/ I'm also surprised I did stop posting shortly after lol... but I still agree, which is tragic for the genre. 
  • gunklackergunklacker Member UncommonPosts: 198
    Well if you havent played a MMO since SWG you been gone long ago..  in a galaxy far, far away.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,639
    The necro is strong with this one
    Hatefull


  • Veiled_lightVeiled_light Member UncommonPosts: 800
    Tiller said:
    The necro is strong with this one
    Remember Dark and Light hype?
    NorseGodOG_Zorvan
  • Quizar1973Quizar1973 Member UncommonPosts: 231
    kobie173 said:
    Originally posted by Frenz

    Originally posted by kobie173

    Originally posted by Veiled_light

    Yeh i'm sick and tired of looking for a new mmorpg so i'm leaving the site, it's a sad time for the mmorpg industry IMO. In 2003 there was sooo much hope and promise it was looking perfect, several mmorpgs ruined later or released as utter crap or even disappointments and i'm fed up....



    After looking at future mmorpgs atm theres nothing that'll capture my SWG experience back in 2003 until it was ruined by Jedi,JTLS and the CU + the NGE. Games like WAR and that are just boring resrictive level quest grinds and i have no interest in that anymore.







    Anyways goodbye people, don't put up with this crap coming from the industry and make a difference by not feeding them money.



    One thing ...

    How did JTL "ruin" SWG? It's the best expansion that game ever had.

    It ruined a good part of the social aspect imo.



    Oh, bullshit. Fine, so people didn't have to wait 10 minutes for shuttles off planet anymore. But when JTL came out, there were still buff lines in the starports, there were still full cantinas, you still had to shuttle to player cities (with the shuttle wait times that everyone seems so fond of).

    Hey, I had no problems with socialization -- but everything was not about socialization. And JTL added something fun to the game! How anyone can think that "ruined" anything is beyond me.

    I agree....JTL was a great expantion to SWG.....The thing that ruined SWG i souly blame it on the NGE....
    No one shall Rent space in my head!!!!!  B)
  • AsheramAsheram Member RarePosts: 3,693
    Tiller said:
    The necro is strong with this one
    I dont think it should be considered a necro if its the original poster posting in it, esp related to the post or should he have clogged up the system with a whole new thread?
  • Prime_DirectivePrime_Directive Member RarePosts: 954
    Yeh i'm sick and tired of looking for a new mmorpg so i'm leaving the site, it's a sad time for the mmorpg industry IMO. In 2003 there was sooo much hope and promise it was looking perfect, several mmorpgs ruined later or released as utter crap or even disappointments and i'm fed up....



    After looking at future mmorpgs atm theres nothing that'll capture my SWG experience back in 2003 until it was ruined by Jedi,JTLS and the CU + the NGE. Games like WAR and that are just boring resrictive level quest grinds and i have no interest in that anymore.







    Anyways goodbye people, don't put up with this crap coming from the industry and make a difference by not feeding them money.
     This website is like the mafia, you can never leave ! :)  Good luck in your gaming endeavors!  
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,474
    Yeh i'm sick and tired of looking for a new mmorpg so i'm leaving the site, it's a sad time for the mmorpg industry IMO. In 2003 there was sooo much hope and promise it was looking perfect, several mmorpgs ruined later or released as utter crap or even disappointments and i'm fed up....



    After looking at future mmorpgs atm theres nothing that'll capture my SWG experience back in 2003 until it was ruined by Jedi,JTLS and the CU + the NGE. Games like WAR and that are just boring resrictive level quest grinds and i have no interest in that anymore.







    Anyways goodbye people, don't put up with this crap coming from the industry and make a difference by not feeding them money.
     This website is like the mafia, you can never leave ! :)  Good luck in your gaming endeavors!  
    You do realize this post is from 2007?
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