Lets just stop talking about perma-death. It is not going to happen, so just drop it. Nobody wants a char to die that they have become attached to. If that was the case then just like in real life, very few would get involved in anything where dying was a possible outcome of the action. You would have a very boring game. If you want to play a game like that.. go play sims online.
====================== It's just me, so open the door.
Originally posted by Umbrood If you do away with levels and gear dependency you at the same time remove the RP from MMORPG, wich means this topic no longer even fits in this forum.
Ok, I had to respond to this. What do levels and gear dependancy have to do with roleplay? Getting rid of those two things wouldn't remove roleplay, in fact I think the oppisite is true, it would make roleplay more likely.
It's the focus on level and loot grinding and the linear static nature of these games which level systems require that is largely responsible for killing roleplaying. I mean what sort of roleplaying does camping a group of static spawns promote? Sitting there killing the same things over and over again. And what roleplay rational can you come up with to explain that? Especially when you are just grinding for experience?
Even if you ignore the glaring artificiality of the situation and try to roleplay despite the non-roleplayish nature of the exp. grinding, even then there isn't any substance to provide fodder for roleplaying. You have nothing roleplayish to talk about....
Wannabe roleplayer: "Oh, the Orc captain just re-spawned. Maybe he'll have the Mace of Whacking this time. Oh and...uh...LOOK OUT THERE'S A BAND OF ORCS AHEAD IN YONDER GLADE!!"
Party member: "Dude stfu up. You say that every time they respawn. We KNOW there's a band of Orcs there. We've killed them all 50 times already."
How does this promote roleplaying?
And then there is the linear nature of these games which will ALWAYS exist as long as there are major power differences between less developed and more developed characters. Think of the difference between a level one character and a max level character in most games. First; it doesn't make any sense why two member of the same species would be so radically different. Second; it requires that the game world be broken up into distinct level-appropriate areas. So instead of one consistant world you end up with a fragmented world of level 1-5 areas, level 6-10 areas, 11-20 areas, and so on. What roleplay sense does that make and how does it promote roleplaying?
And this forces a very linear playing experience because you have to progress your character through level appropriate areas. You have to go grind through a 1-5 area first, then move to a 6-10 area, and so on following the predetermined path that was layed out for you. How the hell does that promote roleplaying?
Levels and gear dependancy don't promote roleplaying. Those things kill roleplaying. Because then the imaginary person or alter ego nature of our characters becomes more and more irrelevant and our characters become little more than a collection of stats and numbers. The numbers matter more than the personality. Personal motivations give way to the overriding motivation to boost the numbers.
Amarsir is sort of on the same track as I am I think.
Think of shooter games. You don't care if your character dies because you will respawn and the next character will be just the same.
That's sort of what I was talking about with my earlier post except that I would give people a little reward for surviving longer. Basically if you go longer without dying your next character will be a little better. Not hugely better, but enough to make you want it.
But when your current character dies you don't really lose anything you were grinding for. It's just that if he had lived a little longer you would have had a few more training points for your next one. Again, not a huge difference...not like the difference between a level 5 character and a level 40 in standard games...just enough of a bonus to make you care a little about trying to survive longer.
And if we could get away from the grind for personal advancement then we could get back to just having fun and roleplaying. And other things could start to matter again besides the almight numbers.
I dont think perma-death will work. The main reason is there is no money in it. There are only a small few that want it and that wont be enough to pay for initial and continued development. Not to mention alot of those that do want it dont truly realize what they are asking for. Once they got a toon up in rank, level, experiance, or whatever you use to track it; will hit the cancel button once they lose a toon permenantally.
And there is the bad eggs. The griefers and psychos. Every game has them. In a PD game they would be even worse since they can cost ingame lives. No amount of security, precautions, or enforcement will prevent it completely. All it takes is one Llama to totally ruin 100s of gamer's experiance. And in a PD game that wont be just a minor annoyance. That will cost accounts.
Lastly you have to deal with the challenge level. Look at current MMOs. There is no way you can go from beginning to endgame without dying. Its going to happen. So in a PD game you would have to dumb it down or set the thing on easy mode. Why would anyone want to pay for a game that is on easy mode or having no real challenge?
Kaibigan34, please re-read the post directly above yours.
It's been pointed out several times already in this thread that the grind for character advancement would have to be made much less important in order for people to accept perma-death.
I dont know if this has been mentioned but maybe adding rewards for staying alive longer.
For example: Adding +5 strength for every 100 pve kills. Even adding rewards for the amount of pvp kills you have prior to death.
If you die you'd loose those buffs. This is just a simple example. I mean there could be a "living" talent tree with additional skills/buffs that one could aquire depending on how many kills you've had. (ie. More kills make you a veteran fighter/character with more knowledge in the art of war).
Now these skills dont have to be extreme but lets say for rogues their 1000 kill talent tree bonus would be 5% increase to critical chance. There could be multiple to choose from. These are just ideas.
Game dinamics needs to be balanced and problem with perma-death is that it has side effects on other gameplay acpects.
1. How about game community? Im not even talking about PKs wondering around cities Im talking about your own friends and your ability to "have FUN with them" such as questing, hunting ect. Lets say both of you about same level (im using level to determine the strenght of the character ) and one of you die and woke up level 1 again. That would definatly put you off the community as you simply wont be able to do things together anymore.
2. Perma-death in a way is a grind. You trying to progress in your skills and become stronger. You die and start over.... and over.... AND OVER. Hmm that would be very easy solution for the developers for end-game. BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO END-GAME lol
Now regarding "no character levels" in future MMOs. People need to refer to something to explain their characters strenght. Take away levels and they will refer to something to determine that.
"Hey bro whats your sword skill?", "315 dude!", "GRATS MAN!!!"
or if no levels for skills either and only abilities:
"Hey buddy whats your skill?", "I just finally got "Tornado Swing-them-hard ability!!!", "WOW! You are much stronger now then when we met before! Grats man!"
Got my point? So levels needed to determine character advancement. I agree that earning xp concept have to go. Its dieing. But levels got to stay for the sake of convenience
I agree with the OP. I cant wait till a game does PD right .
In a game with PD their should be 0 skill/level gains. No item quests or super weapons, they should all be basic weapons with basic stats that a new player can buy as easily as a vet.
The big thing for a PD game to be successfull would be the world. If the world is tiny like WoW or EQ2, it will fail because theirs nothing new to find.
This is how it should be. The world is so huge you can ,basicaly, never explore it all (D&L without flying but larger). New players would be started in random starter town locations. They would be able to explore(thats where the fun comes in) but as they get farther and farther away from what they know it would get gradualy harder to survive(in the wild). No runnig up the sides of mountains to get to the other side , have to go arround or under if their is a cave. No flying mounts, they make the world small instantly and remove most danger/fun of exploring. And no instancing that sucks, if the world was large enough it wouldnt need it. Plus their would be no quests to kill x# of rats or pigs therefore no spawn camping.
Money should be pretty much non existant, Trials of Ascention had that right, money would be resources. Mabe iron in this town and you can have tons, but move 3 towns over and your fortune of iron might be worth a loaf of bread becaues they value copper. This would help the economy in all towns to grow since what the town needs most is what they value most.
No quests like I mentioned, the world would be what you make it. Their would be NPC builders/crafters in each town that can use what you bring them to make you something like weapons, armor or a house.(only in NPC towns tho) But no go here get that come back then return to him again and get this ..sorry forgot to tell ya , quests. You do what you want to do.
NPC's should have hunger,rest, religion and fun meters like most sim games have now days. And they should move arround in each town accordingly, to the bar for fun home for rest or church for religion... This would make the world feel alive even when no players are arround.(mabe you are far from most new settlements)
Hopefully the first game that is done, does not add magic to it, that would make it much too hard to balance the game because magic is truly made up... and this type game would be built arround realisim. Mabe after the MMO genre has some exp under its belt with PD games then they can add the silliness of magic in a way that is not over powering. (just keep it real the first time)
I touched on no skills or levels, and I will explain. If in the begining you made your char how you want him to be (like a FPS as mentioned by others) their would be no need to grind or skill up anything you are alreayd set, so dying would be a kick because of relocation, not because it gonna take days or weeks to get back in shape. Only after relocation , you may decide not to explore the same places you went last time you would try a different path.(or blaze a new one) (remember the extremely huge world)
As the OP had said they got to do it right, you cannot compare or think of WoW or any other game when PD is the subject. Mainly because their are none to compare it to. And trying to think how can they add this to EQ2 or WoW is a waste of brain power because they didnt have PD in mind when building it in the first place, they had draging on the experiance to get your money for longer on their mind. In those games PD would mean the end of their payday...
In a game with PD the main focus would have to be fun and replayability (top priority) if it is gonna be new experiance (just by the direction you walk from the starter town) and remember you spawn in a different starter towns on death, you would always have something to do and the farther you get the more challengeing. Also helping defend or build a player town would add to the fun , that alone would keep the game alive and the community thirsty for more(again if it is done right)
I for one would pay monthly for a game that that could actualy keep my interest for long times just by me being able to go anywhere or do or be anything I want at the start. Without having to grind through months of meaningless mobsx100 just to get to, whats supposed to be the fun part of their game...
Think and read before you bash PD because it just may be what saves MMOS from stagnation and repetition...
A couple of single player games, with permadeath, that might shed some light on the character aspect of the game are Lost Labyrinth and FastCrawl. Both games are made with the "hour or less" design goal. However, FastCrawl does away with character creation altogether while LL allows you to define your character class and choose 7 skills. A permadeath MMO would have to have some very simple character creation. Notice that simple doesn't mean brain dead. You want to give the players lot of options to explore, but not so many that they get tied down by the choices.
Another interesting aspect of these games is that they only grant experience when you reach another level of the dungeon. Killing monsters does not advance your character in any way. BatMUD gives player experience every time they enter a room they've never been in before. Not sure how this could be implemented in an MMO, but the time to give players for something other than killing an endless stream of mobs is long overdue.
One thing that no one has thought of yet is the idea of a finite game. Dig this:
The game world has one main quest that everyone is trying to complete in order to "win."
Once the quest is completed, the game ends and everyone rolls new characters with the "winners" of the last game getting some kind of bonus on their next character.
You could actually cycle several different main quests to create an over arching storyline.
You could also just make the whole thing RvR and declare a winner at the end of a set amount of time. (1 week, a month, 6 months, a year...)
There's more that you can do with this idea, but if you want permadeath to work, you have to kind of re-imagine what an MMORPG is.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe One thing that no one has thought of yet is the idea of a finite game. Dig this:The game world has one main quest that everyone is trying to complete in order to "win." Once the quest is completed, the game ends and everyone rolls new characters with the "winners" of the last game getting some kind of bonus on their next character.You could actually cycle several different main quests to create an over arching storyline.You could also just make the whole thing RvR and declare a winner at the end of a set amount of time. (1 week, a month, 6 months, a year...)
Nice idea! Obviously there's stuff to be worked out, timing in particular, but I hadn't considered anything like that, and I like it.
Permadeath could work if were the answer to a specific design goal. The problem is people here are trying to approach it from the other end and making perma death the goal, and looking for designs in which it would work. Any design that puts the solution in front of the problem in this way probably is not going to work.
That being said, here is a possible scenario for permadeath.
Ganking is relatively consequence free in most games that have PvP. The problem is that in most PvP game designs there really isn’t anything for them to lose, and the person they ganked is unlikely to ever have any real ability to retaliate. The end result is that you end up with a world filled with serial killers and this makes the game unfriendly to any other style of play.
The normal way to balance this is to make being ganked similarly consequence free which has it’s own negative side effects. You could, however, also address this by opening up the person doing the ganking to *real* consequences. How do you impose consequences for this type of action that people will actually take seriously? Having repeated instance of this type of play increase their exposure to permadeath could be one possible answer.
Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.
I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.
The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.
Well here is the ideal that needs to change.
1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.
The thing about fun is this. Once that fun has been learned and repeated over and over again, it becomes work.
2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.
Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.
This is still the same concept of leveling. It's still a form of advancement, because the more skills you have the stronger you will become. So having 2 months worth of skills and dying is no different than dying after leveling for 2 months. However, I am the type that would love Perma-death, even in a level based game. The only non-advancement type games out there are FPS games. Most people don't care about dying permanently in FPS, because you never advance in those games. Winning is only determined by the skill and reflexes of the person behind the computer.
3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I think it's a good valid idea. It breaks away from the stagnant cookie-cutter MMORPG's that are out at this point. Whenever the subject of PD in MMORPG's is brought up, those against it are so adamantly against it that they seem to get upset and angry at the idea, usually ending their post with "I will never play a game that has PD!" And that is ok, a game with Perma death isn't really FOR them. It's another option that would be available to those of us that aren't power gamers, trying to run that treadmill to the maximum level, trying to get the uber-loot that sets them apart from the rest...those people would just continue playing those type of games, and good luck to them.
So the naysayers that argue that PD simply cannot work, the ones that quote previous posts and answer each point in colored highlights as to how stupid the ideas are, or simply don't agree...than don't read a post on this subject. In fact, make your own post on why it would never work, I will stay away from it. Let the pro PD discussions be discussed without you.
I think on some specific themed games PD would add a fun factor that you just cannot get in the current library of MMORPG's.
A game that did PD right would be sweet. I'm just not sure how many people would play it... And getting a big company to make it would be difficult... Nevertheless PD FTW
As long gameplay is fun i dont see any problem playing a PD its just a game just a computer generated avatar so no big deal when it died ,fun in such game is the key.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Most people who are against the idea of perma-death are thinking of it in the context of the standard MMORPG. You're right - it would take an entirely new game structure to make it work.
Instead of a single character (or several unrelated characters, for those of us who create lots of alts), I'd like to see a family or "stable" of characters. Rather than developing a single character, the player would develop all of his characters as a group. Obviously, the active character would get the greatest benefit from whatever adventuring he was doing, but he would also earn experience or other abilities for the inactive characters. When a character dies, it's the end of that character, but not of the group as a whole. The group will be weakened, and will need to be rearranged, but the player wouldn't be starting over from scratch.
There should also be a chance to get back a fallen character, within limits. When you have something as harsh as perma-death, you have to give second chances. Of course, if you can't retrieve the body and have the character resurrected before time runs out, he is gone forever.
Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered
Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.
I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.
The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.
Well here is the ideal that needs to change.
1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.
2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.
Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.
3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
I think you're clouding the issue by tossing-in some wishlist features which are actually unrelated to making perma-death workable.
You start out spot-on with identifying the challenge: Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.
This issue is not addressed by changing what "it" is (levels, xp, skills, abilities, whatever): if your achievement is lost when your character dies, then death is going to be an exit-event for a lot of your players. Changing the achievement from Levels to Powers (or whatever) doesn't address the issue.
Making the game "fun and never work" is simply going to be impossible, especially given a "start over" moment like permanent death. Assuming the character's advance in power, starting over means going back to the low-power areas/opponents you've done thousands of times before, "working" back to the new and interesting things you'd just discovered. That is, what was "fun" the first few thousand times will become "work"...
Character Advancement without levels (spending xp for skills) doesn't change what's actually happening with levels...
There's either no advancement of the character (tons of FPS's are like this), which enabled painless perma-death, but which also makes it meaningless.
Or, there's advancement of the character, but with achievement largely stored elsewhere.
Changing where achievement is stored from a character to a player's account, means that you could then allow a character to be lost without erasing the player's progress.
Part of my "dream game" is one where players choose a type of character they like, get a stronghold, temple, tower, etc. with several characters (mostly of the type they like), and level-up those characters just a little bit each; while mostly advancing their estate with boons all of their characters may use. The core risk-vs-reward is to risk the little bit of advancement an individual character has made, to acquire a permanent boon for the estate.
Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered
That's awesome... another big part of that "dream game" of mine. Sometimes I think this just a personal wishlist feature of my own that I just rationalize into being a vital component, so it's great to see someone else think it important.
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered
That's awesome... another big part of that "dream game" of mine. Sometimes I think this just a personal wishlist feature of my own that I just rationalize into being a vital component, so it's great to see someone else think it important.
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies.
Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered
That's awesome... another big part of that "dream game" of mine. Sometimes I think this just a personal wishlist feature of my own that I just rationalize into being a vital component, so it's great to see someone else think it important.
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
That sounds alot like Trials of Ascension's PD reward system. I agree that it would be a cool way to aleviate some of the pain of PD, but the weapons(bonus) should apply to PVE only not PVP or you have uber greivers... Too bad ToA dosent look like its gonna make it was looking forward to it.
Graves, statues and similar would be cool as hell too.
The option to keep your house and possesions(that should all be fairly basic items anyways) should be avaliable. Instead of ending the character and completly starting fresh(creating uber weapon/artifact) you could select to have an heir so you have the option stay in the same local as your friends/town/guild. if you dont, you start at a random starter town. (and their should be many)
You should not be able to have an heir at all unless you married by joining a town to settle down. (basicaly a player guild) The guilds tho should only be able to recruit the ammount of players it can support.(by hard work and adding structures, also the ammount of natural resources in your area) Forcing everyone to spread out and create small clans everywhere. Conflicts and alliances galore, on a manageable scale. If your town is destroyed so is your family in it, so you would not be able to have an heir, would have to end it there create artifact and start fresh in a new town with a new life and new people.
Since their has to be some more loss for PD to meaningfull, I would say add reputation. Longer your character lives and more stuff he makes/sells/contributes/kills adds to your reputation. Reputation would be added to your family. Longer you live the more rep you earn over time. Upon death and selecting to continue with an heir, those rep points would get added to the pool. And once/if you decide to end that family line or have your town/guild destroyed, your family rep should determine the artifact you can create as your legacy or the strength to its bonuses(in PVE). Upon total PD like that you start fresh, new character in a new place with new people.
And like I said the world should be huge and almost impossible to explore it all... especialy solo. But their should be so much to see and it should take a good amout of time to make any distance, that even solo you could have fun for a long time, just exploring. they should constantly be working on patches, that arent quests and uber gear, but new land and continents to explore/populate.
As the community builds towns and grow larger wars and all will break out, over resources and space, and thats where the fun comes in PVP meaningfull PVP. where noone has a gross advantage over anyone, and everyone fears deaths cold embrace !!
The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies.
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Eh...perma death. You are right the point is to have fun. But, I do not think anyone would enjoy losing a character that they spent months on, just to lose it because of 1 death that could have been caused by lag/disconnect/cheaters. It just does not work for me.
You call me evil. I call myself good. I call you dumb
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
There are series of books, TV shows and movies that follow sets of characters across two or three generations (Xanth and Robotech com directly to mind). Why wouldn't you become just as involved with the story of your character's "family?"
I'm sorry but Permadeath could never really work in an MMORPG because of one simple problem. Character attachment. MMO's encourage people to play by having people become attached to their character. If they lose that character it rightfully ticks them off.
Oh, so the argument then is to have shorter player sessions, or somehow have the person less attached to their character.
Well if the person is less attached to their character it follows that they care less about their character and if you don't care about yoru character it also follows that you care less about the game. This means that you will leave the game, thus the game doesn't make money and shuts down.
You cannot have an MMO with permadeath and expect people to:
A) keep playing after they have died if they care about their character or
keep paying for a game when they don't care about their character.
Permadeath might work in a game set up like guild wars that does not require people to keep paying for it.
It is a fundamental cyclical problem
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Well I think having a perma death system would rock if done right and on the right game design.
For instance it would make you think twice before rushing into the fray, thus more planning. In games like warcraft this was never and issue due to the fact that you could simply ghost back and spawn. And in doing so no risk hardly. So people raiding a town would just keep going and going and going.
And also it would triple the reward. Survival... a good reward.. think about it... you are the only one on your server that killed a dragon and you lived to tell about it... you would be legendary... heck.. some people may want to carve a name out of your hide... bounty hunters, thiefs.. duels... you get the picture..
Altough i highly agree that it would take an entirely different game design to do this... like mayve an epic fantasy mmorpgFPS.
hmmm... soory going off on a tangent again... lol.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Comments
======================
It's just me, so open the door.
Ok, I had to respond to this. What do levels and gear dependancy have to do with roleplay? Getting rid of those two things wouldn't remove roleplay, in fact I think the oppisite is true, it would make roleplay more likely.
It's the focus on level and loot grinding and the linear static nature of these games which level systems require that is largely responsible for killing roleplaying. I mean what sort of roleplaying does camping a group of static spawns promote? Sitting there killing the same things over and over again. And what roleplay rational can you come up with to explain that? Especially when you are just grinding for experience?
Even if you ignore the glaring artificiality of the situation and try to roleplay despite the non-roleplayish nature of the exp. grinding, even then there isn't any substance to provide fodder for roleplaying. You have nothing roleplayish to talk about....
Wannabe roleplayer: "Oh, the Orc captain just re-spawned. Maybe he'll have the Mace of Whacking this time. Oh and...uh...LOOK OUT THERE'S A BAND OF ORCS AHEAD IN YONDER GLADE!!"
Party member: "Dude stfu up. You say that every time they respawn. We KNOW there's a band of Orcs there. We've killed them all 50 times already."
How does this promote roleplaying?
And then there is the linear nature of these games which will ALWAYS exist as long as there are major power differences between less developed and more developed characters. Think of the difference between a level one character and a max level character in most games. First; it doesn't make any sense why two member of the same species would be so radically different. Second; it requires that the game world be broken up into distinct level-appropriate areas. So instead of one consistant world you end up with a fragmented world of level 1-5 areas, level 6-10 areas, 11-20 areas, and so on. What roleplay sense does that make and how does it promote roleplaying?
And this forces a very linear playing experience because you have to progress your character through level appropriate areas. You have to go grind through a 1-5 area first, then move to a 6-10 area, and so on following the predetermined path that was layed out for you. How the hell does that promote roleplaying?
Levels and gear dependancy don't promote roleplaying. Those things kill roleplaying. Because then the imaginary person or alter ego nature of our characters becomes more and more irrelevant and our characters become little more than a collection of stats and numbers. The numbers matter more than the personality. Personal motivations give way to the overriding motivation to boost the numbers.
Amarsir is sort of on the same track as I am I think.
Think of shooter games. You don't care if your character dies because you will respawn and the next character will be just the same.
That's sort of what I was talking about with my earlier post except that I would give people a little reward for surviving longer. Basically if you go longer without dying your next character will be a little better. Not hugely better, but enough to make you want it.
But when your current character dies you don't really lose anything you were grinding for. It's just that if he had lived a little longer you would have had a few more training points for your next one. Again, not a huge difference...not like the difference between a level 5 character and a level 40 in standard games...just enough of a bonus to make you care a little about trying to survive longer.
And if we could get away from the grind for personal advancement then we could get back to just having fun and roleplaying. And other things could start to matter again besides the almight numbers.
And there is the bad eggs. The griefers and psychos. Every game has them. In a PD game they would be even worse since they can cost ingame lives. No amount of security, precautions, or enforcement will prevent it completely. All it takes is one Llama to totally ruin 100s of gamer's experiance. And in a PD game that wont be just a minor annoyance. That will cost accounts.
Lastly you have to deal with the challenge level. Look at current MMOs. There is no way you can go from beginning to endgame without dying. Its going to happen. So in a PD game you would have to dumb it down or set the thing on easy mode. Why would anyone want to pay for a game that is on easy mode or having no real challenge?
Kai
Kaibigan34, please re-read the post directly above yours.
It's been pointed out several times already in this thread that the grind for character advancement would have to be made much less important in order for people to accept perma-death.
For example: Adding +5 strength for every 100 pve kills. Even adding rewards for the amount of pvp kills you have prior to death.
If you die you'd loose those buffs. This is just a simple example. I mean there could be a "living" talent tree with additional skills/buffs that one could aquire depending on how many kills you've had. (ie. More kills make you a veteran fighter/character with more knowledge in the art of war).
Now these skills dont have to be extreme but lets say for rogues their 1000 kill talent tree bonus would be 5% increase to critical chance. There could be multiple to choose from. These are just ideas.
1. How about game community? Im not even talking about PKs wondering around cities Im talking about your own friends and your ability to "have FUN with them" such as questing, hunting ect. Lets say both of you about same level (im using level to determine the strenght of the character
2. Perma-death in a way is a grind. You trying to progress in your skills and become stronger. You die and start over.... and over.... AND OVER. Hmm that would be very easy solution for the developers for end-game. BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO END-GAME lol
Now regarding "no character levels" in future MMOs. People need to refer to something to explain their characters strenght. Take away levels and they will refer to something to determine that.
"Hey bro whats your sword skill?", "315 dude!", "GRATS MAN!!!"
or if no levels for skills either and only abilities:
"Hey buddy whats your skill?", "I just finally got "Tornado Swing-them-hard ability!!!", "WOW! You are much stronger now then when we met before! Grats man!"
Got my point? So levels needed to determine character advancement. I agree that earning xp concept have to go. Its dieing. But levels got to stay for the sake of convenience
Ligner
_________________________________
Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
I agree with the OP. I cant wait till a game does PD right .
In a game with PD their should be 0 skill/level gains. No item quests or super weapons, they should all be basic weapons with basic stats that a new player can buy as easily as a vet.
The big thing for a PD game to be successfull would be the world. If the world is tiny like WoW or EQ2, it will fail because theirs nothing new to find.
This is how it should be. The world is so huge you can ,basicaly, never explore it all (D&L without flying but larger). New players would be started in random starter town locations. They would be able to explore(thats where the fun comes in) but as they get farther and farther away from what they know it would get gradualy harder to survive(in the wild). No runnig up the sides of mountains to get to the other side , have to go arround or under if their is a cave. No flying mounts, they make the world small instantly and remove most danger/fun of exploring. And no instancing that sucks, if the world was large enough it wouldnt need it. Plus their would be no quests to kill x# of rats or pigs therefore no spawn camping.
Money should be pretty much non existant, Trials of Ascention had that right, money would be resources. Mabe iron in this town and you can have tons, but move 3 towns over and your fortune of iron might be worth a loaf of bread becaues they value copper. This would help the economy in all towns to grow since what the town needs most is what they value most.
No quests like I mentioned, the world would be what you make it. Their would be NPC builders/crafters in each town that can use what you bring them to make you something like weapons, armor or a house.(only in NPC towns tho) But no go here get that come back then return to him again and get this ..sorry forgot to tell ya , quests. You do what you want to do.
NPC's should have hunger,rest, religion and fun meters like most sim games have now days. And they should move arround in each town accordingly, to the bar for fun home for rest or church for religion... This would make the world feel alive even when no players are arround.(mabe you are far from most new settlements)
Hopefully the first game that is done, does not add magic to it, that would make it much too hard to balance the game because magic is truly made up... and this type game would be built arround realisim. Mabe after the MMO genre has some exp under its belt with PD games then they can add the silliness of magic in a way that is not over powering. (just keep it real the first time)
I touched on no skills or levels, and I will explain. If in the begining you made your char how you want him to be (like a FPS as mentioned by others) their would be no need to grind or skill up anything you are alreayd set, so dying would be a kick because of relocation, not because it gonna take days or weeks to get back in shape. Only after relocation , you may decide not to explore the same places you went last time you would try a different path.(or blaze a new one) (remember the extremely huge world)
As the OP had said they got to do it right, you cannot compare or think of WoW or any other game when PD is the subject. Mainly because their are none to compare it to. And trying to think how can they add this to EQ2 or WoW is a waste of brain power because they didnt have PD in mind when building it in the first place, they had draging on the experiance to get your money for longer on their mind. In those games PD would mean the end of their payday...
In a game with PD the main focus would have to be fun and replayability (top priority) if it is gonna be new experiance (just by the direction you walk from the starter town) and remember you spawn in a different starter towns on death, you would always have something to do and the farther you get the more challengeing. Also helping defend or build a player town would add to the fun , that alone would keep the game alive and the community thirsty for more(again if it is done right)
I for one would pay monthly for a game that that could actualy keep my interest for long times just by me being able to go anywhere or do or be anything I want at the start. Without having to grind through months of meaningless mobsx100 just to get to, whats supposed to be the fun part of their game...
Think and read before you bash PD because it just may be what saves MMOS from stagnation and repetition...
A couple of single player games, with permadeath, that might shed some light on the character aspect of the game are Lost Labyrinth and FastCrawl. Both games are made with the "hour or less" design goal. However, FastCrawl does away with character creation altogether while LL allows you to define your character class and choose 7 skills. A permadeath MMO would have to have some very simple character creation. Notice that simple doesn't mean brain dead. You want to give the players lot of options to explore, but not so many that they get tied down by the choices.
Another interesting aspect of these games is that they only grant experience when you reach another level of the dungeon. Killing monsters does not advance your character in any way. BatMUD gives player experience every time they enter a room they've never been in before. Not sure how this could be implemented in an MMO, but the time to give players for something other than killing an endless stream of mobs is long overdue.
One thing that no one has thought of yet is the idea of a finite game. Dig this:
The game world has one main quest that everyone is trying to complete in order to "win."
Once the quest is completed, the game ends and everyone rolls new characters with the "winners" of the last game getting some kind of bonus on their next character.
You could actually cycle several different main quests to create an over arching storyline.
You could also just make the whole thing RvR and declare a winner at the end of a set amount of time. (1 week, a month, 6 months, a year...)
There's more that you can do with this idea, but if you want permadeath to work, you have to kind of re-imagine what an MMORPG is.
Nice idea! Obviously there's stuff to be worked out, timing in particular, but I hadn't considered anything like that, and I like it.
Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
That being said, here is a possible scenario for permadeath.
Ganking is relatively consequence free in most games that have PvP. The problem is that in most PvP game designs there really isn’t anything for them to lose, and the person they ganked is unlikely to ever have any real ability to retaliate. The end result is that you end up with a world filled with serial killers and this makes the game unfriendly to any other style of play.
The normal way to balance this is to make being ganked similarly consequence free which has it’s own negative side effects. You could, however, also address this by opening up the person doing the ganking to *real* consequences. How do you impose consequences for this type of action that people will actually take seriously? Having repeated instance of this type of play increase their exposure to permadeath could be one possible answer.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I think it's a good valid idea. It breaks away from the stagnant cookie-cutter MMORPG's that are out at this point. Whenever the subject of PD in MMORPG's is brought up, those against it are so adamantly against it that they seem to get upset and angry at the idea, usually ending their post with "I will never play a game that has PD!" And that is ok, a game with Perma death isn't really FOR them. It's another option that would be available to those of us that aren't power gamers, trying to run that treadmill to the maximum level, trying to get the uber-loot that sets them apart from the rest...those people would just continue playing those type of games, and good luck to them.
So the naysayers that argue that PD simply cannot work, the ones that quote previous posts and answer each point in colored highlights as to how stupid the ideas are, or simply don't agree...than don't read a post on this subject. In fact, make your own post on why it would never work, I will stay away from it. Let the pro PD discussions be discussed without you.
I think on some specific themed games PD would add a fun factor that you just cannot get in the current library of MMORPG's.
A game that did PD right would be sweet.
I'm just not sure how many people would play it...
And getting a big company to make it would be difficult...
Nevertheless PD FTW
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Instead of a single character (or several unrelated characters, for those of us who create lots of alts), I'd like to see a family or "stable" of characters. Rather than developing a single character, the player would develop all of his characters as a group. Obviously, the active character would get the greatest benefit from whatever adventuring he was doing, but he would also earn experience or other abilities for the inactive characters. When a character dies, it's the end of that character, but not of the group as a whole. The group will be weakened, and will need to be rearranged, but the player wouldn't be starting over from scratch.
There should also be a chance to get back a fallen character, within limits. When you have something as harsh as perma-death, you have to give second chances. Of course, if you can't retrieve the body and have the character resurrected before time runs out, he is gone forever.
Death could also have other meanings in a fantasy setting. Instead of passing into oblivion, never to be seen again, the character might leave some sort of legacy. Maybe the other characters could call on the spirits of the deceased (with the effect being dependent on the power of the dead character). Memorial plaques, statues, and graveyards are a must-have - let the best of the best be honored and remembered
You start out spot-on with identifying the challenge: Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.
This issue is not addressed by changing what "it" is (levels, xp, skills, abilities, whatever): if your achievement is lost when your character dies, then death is going to be an exit-event for a lot of your players. Changing the achievement from Levels to Powers (or whatever) doesn't address the issue.
Making the game "fun and never work" is simply going to be impossible, especially given a "start over" moment like permanent death. Assuming the character's advance in power, starting over means going back to the low-power areas/opponents you've done thousands of times before, "working" back to the new and interesting things you'd just discovered. That is, what was "fun" the first few thousand times will become "work"...
Character Advancement without levels (spending xp for skills) doesn't change what's actually happening with levels...
There's either no advancement of the character (tons of FPS's are like this), which enabled painless perma-death, but which also makes it meaningless.
Or, there's advancement of the character, but with achievement largely stored elsewhere.
Changing where achievement is stored from a character to a player's account, means that you could then allow a character to be lost without erasing the player's progress.
Part of my "dream game" is one where players choose a type of character they like, get a stronghold, temple, tower, etc. with several characters (mostly of the type they like), and level-up those characters just a little bit each; while mostly advancing their estate with boons all of their characters may use. The core risk-vs-reward is to risk the little bit of advancement an individual character has made, to acquire a permanent boon for the estate.
Jeff Freeman
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
Jeff Freeman
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
The issue with that idea is that MMORPGs aiming to make players play mainly one character as its supposed to be Role Playing game. How can you role play few at the time? Role playing isnt something you must do its simply how you feel in the world. When I log into the game and if it feels like being in different world then you're already role playing by imagining your self being elsewhere but around your computer. By allowing PD players will loose their connection with that imagined fantasy world when their character dies.
_________________________________
Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
I'd want those estates to have catacombs and the like, listing all the fallen heroes.
Definitely trophy halls and the like, especially as displays of the boons acquired for the estate.
The feature I love the most though, is to seed the treasure tables with magic items named and given the lore of fallen heroes: so if Kallagian the Warrior had killed lots of trolls, maybe after he's dead and gone there's a sword out there called Kallagian's Trollslayer, with a history behind it which actually happened (except of course, the sword wasn't a magical troll slaying sword when Kallagian had it!).
That's also the feature which makes database programmers weep.
That sounds alot like Trials of Ascension's PD reward system. I agree that it would be a cool way to aleviate some of the pain of PD, but the weapons(bonus) should apply to PVE only not PVP or you have uber greivers... Too bad ToA dosent look like its gonna make it
Graves, statues and similar would be cool as hell too.
The option to keep your house and possesions(that should all be fairly basic items anyways) should be avaliable. Instead of ending the character and completly starting fresh(creating uber weapon/artifact) you could select to have an heir so you have the option stay in the same local as your friends/town/guild. if you dont, you start at a random starter town. (and their should be many)
You should not be able to have an heir at all unless you married by joining a town to settle down. (basicaly a player guild) The guilds tho should only be able to recruit the ammount of players it can support.(by hard work and adding structures, also the ammount of natural resources in your area) Forcing everyone to spread out and create small clans everywhere. Conflicts and alliances galore, on a manageable scale. If your town is destroyed so is your family in it, so you would not be able to have an heir, would have to end it there create artifact and start fresh in a new town with a new life and new people.
Since their has to be some more loss for PD to meaningfull, I would say add reputation. Longer your character lives and more stuff he makes/sells/contributes/kills adds to your reputation. Reputation would be added to your family. Longer you live the more rep you earn over time. Upon death and selecting to continue with an heir, those rep points would get added to the pool. And once/if you decide to end that family line or have your town/guild destroyed, your family rep should determine the artifact you can create as your legacy or the strength to its bonuses(in PVE). Upon total PD like that you start fresh, new character in a new place with new people.
And like I said the world should be huge and almost impossible to explore it all... especialy solo. But their should be so much to see and it should take a good amout of time to make any distance, that even solo you could have fun for a long time, just exploring. they should constantly be working on patches, that arent quests and uber gear, but new land and continents to explore/populate.
As the community builds towns and grow larger wars and all will break out, over resources and space, and thats where the fun comes in PVP meaningfull PVP. where noone has a gross advantage over anyone, and everyone fears deaths cold embrace !!
Ah, well actually you wouldn't play many at once, just one at a time. Basically the same as having 8 character slots on a server: you choose one and go adventuring (and if you're like most players, all of your characters profit from your successes with any).
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
Jeff Freeman
You call me evil.
I call myself good.
I call you dumb
But that is a good point: players won't build up an increasing emotional investment with a single character over time if their characters come and go. What's the solution?
There are series of books, TV shows and movies that follow sets of characters across two or three generations (Xanth and Robotech com directly to mind). Why wouldn't you become just as involved with the story of your character's "family?"
I'm sorry but Permadeath could never really work in an MMORPG because of one simple problem. Character attachment. MMO's encourage people to play by having people become attached to their character. If they lose that character it rightfully ticks them off.
Oh, so the argument then is to have shorter player sessions, or somehow have the person less attached to their character.
Well if the person is less attached to their character it follows that they care less about their character and if you don't care about yoru character it also follows that you care less about the game. This means that you will leave the game, thus the game doesn't make money and shuts down.
You cannot have an MMO with permadeath and expect people to:
A) keep playing after they have died if they care about their character or
Permadeath might work in a game set up like guild wars that does not require people to keep paying for it.
It is a fundamental cyclical problem
Venge Sunsoar
Well I think having a perma death system would rock if done right and on the right game design.
For instance it would make you think twice before rushing into the fray, thus more planning. In games like warcraft this was never and issue due to the fact that you could simply ghost back and spawn. And in doing so no risk hardly. So people raiding a town would just keep going and going and going.
And also it would triple the reward. Survival... a good reward.. think about it... you are the only one on your server that killed a dragon and you lived to tell about it... you would be legendary... heck.. some people may want to carve a name out of your hide... bounty hunters, thiefs.. duels... you get the picture..
Altough i highly agree that it would take an entirely different game design to do this... like mayve an epic fantasy mmorpgFPS.
hmmm... soory going off on a tangent again... lol.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci