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Now with raiding

gatherisgatheris Member UncommonPosts: 1,016

maybe should be titled "WOW more raiding"

i find it so sad that a game i was so interested in again ruined by lazy developers

other than mysterious "other" end game content the devs have resorted to raiding to keep people around after "end game"

is "end game" even necessary - how about more content?

strange concept i guess

the wait for a game from imaginative and talented devs continues

anybody know of one?

 

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Comments

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138

    *sigh* Why bother, I ask myself. Why even attempt to explain the point that the amount of raids in this game are limited to a few lore related instances and that you can find equal value items through regular grouping, a very limited chance through solo play and through crafting? Why point out the fact that the devs have stated this time and again? Why say any of it when it'll just be dismissed?

    Meh, more game for me!

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • TorakTorak Member Posts: 4,905
    Originally posted by gatheris


    maybe should be titled "WOW more raiding"
    i find it so sad that a game i was so interested in again ruined by lazy developers
    other than mysterious "other" end game content the devs have resorted to raiding to keep people around after "end game"
    is "end game" even necessary - how about more content?
    strange concept i guess
    the wait for a game from imaginative and talented devs continues
    anybody know of one?
     

    Well thanks to the earily days of EQ we now have "raiding" as a standard feature. EQ was the first game to really break all the sales records and thats what they were doing, loading in raids. MMO's are so scared to stray from the original formula its pathetic.

    Asheron's Call doesn't use raids as an endgame, in fact there is no real endgame, it has some of the best "content" on the market. The game is pretty much dead however. Go figure.

    Lineage II does not rely on raids. There is nothing in L2 a raid boss drops that you can't get some other way like crafting or trading.

    EVE doesn't have them, but you really need to have a taste for that game. I didn't like it one little bit. I dont think Ryzom uses raids all that much. That is an open ended sandbox game. There are a few others.

    The irony is everyone claims to not like raiding (myself included) but no non-raiding game has any real large scale success. But ideally you are correct, there should be no "end game" Endgame by definition means just that, the game ends, which goes against the original foundartion of the MMORPG which was to create virtual worlds not math competitions.

    Raiding is an easy way out for devs and its very a tangible goal for players to relate to. My theory is when an MMO gets to open ended, like Ryzom, it gets to difficult for the type of player MMO's draw (achiever types mainly) to identify with. MMO's don't draw the the more imaginitive or RPG focused players. They are to tedious and limited for them. The typical MMO player is far more interested in advancing the math then immersion in the gameworld. MMO players will easily forsake character choices for better math in creation and classes. (min/maxers and templaters)

    A good example was yesterday here on this site in the general discussions, another poster simply could not understand that in the game Oblivion that there was no real "best" class / race combo. The game works with any combo. Sure there are some combos that are obviously better statically BUT its nothing that stops you from playing whatever you want. The poster had no interest on his preferance / immersion / RP, he just wanted the "best" mathmatical combo.

    At this point in MMO developement I think the course is set. The player base expects raids so we will continue to get them. MMOs are on their track and I don't see it changing to much. Their evolution went to a primary math focus rather then Role Playing. Unfortunately you are going to need to stick to games like NWN, NWN2, Oblivion, Gothic series and upcoming titles like Sacred 2 and Two Worlds to get your REAL fix of good RPG gaming. If you want to fiddle with numbers and glowy swords while you chat with the masses, MMO's will be your best bet. As cynical as it sounds, thats my theory lol....... 

    EDIT

    oops, while I was up on my soapbox I forgot one thing, as far as I know, LotR's isn't raid centric as far as I know....

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Good points Torak. Just wanted to add that I can vouch for NWN 2. Very good game.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • TorakTorak Member Posts: 4,905

    Yeah, I ordered it and it should be here within the next few days. I know it had a rough release but it looks like most of the issues have been patched up. WTF is wrong with PC game makers anyway? Could you imagine the outrage console gamers would unleash if their games where as messed up as ours? Holy Sh*t I couldn''t even guess what the fallout would be like if something like "Gears of War" was buggy or incomplete. And yet we still have games like Vanguard that push their game out rushed and unfinished.

    Its really to bad the path MMO's have taken. I'm "hoping" games like Conan, Aion, Gods and Heroes and to a lesser degree even LotR's starts to change some of this. I knew for a long time it was NOT going to be Vanguard. Devs really really need to start streching their wings a bit and really exploring the full potential of MMO's. Rehashing the same old formula over and over with newer graphics isn't going to cut it anymore. I'm going to use Vanguard as my "beat on MMO's example" for some time to come. WTF where they thinking when they sat down to create that game conceptually??? "Hey lets make a game thats exactly like everything else out there but with all the newest technology and a card game built in".

    F**k me, the game has far less of a point in it then Lineage2 and a much harder grind....WTF were they thinking??? (actually L2 is a bad game to use as an example because its one of the few MMO's that actually has a point and a dynamic player driven world...not that anyone on this site really knows that....) but you get my point, no one likes grind.  If "harder grinding, economy and death penalties is what MMOers really wanted, then Lineage2 should be king of the hill. It has all of that AND an open ended dynamic player driven world. That last portion, Vanguard doesn't even have. There is no higher end "reward". You just do more grinding.

    At a point when MMO's harshest critizism is pointless grinding, why the f**k would they create a game that embraces it? I had high hopes for Vanguard up until I got in beta last summer. I can't even begin to tell how disappointed I was. Then they patched it up in the last 60 days before release with all sorts of changes and additions that in no way possible could have been remotely tested.....you see the end result more of the same. more grind, more tedium, more bugs more of the same.

    We all keep hanging on, hoping the next batch of games will be the "holy grail" but so far its turned out to be a myth every damn time.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,450

    I don't think LOTRO will have anything ground breaking. Nor are they saying they will.

    I think it will be a solid, beautiful video game for those who want to play in Middle Earth.

    Aion is what I have my eyes on and will be the first game I try out "seriously" other than L2.




  • TorakTorak Member Posts: 4,905

    Hey Sovrath,

    yeah I'm was just off on a rant lol, you know me I was in a meeting this afternoon and being driven out of my skull when I wrote that.

    Anyway, LotR is not gonna break the mold or anything but I have a hunch its wayyy more entertaining  then Vanguard. Call it my gut. I'm also looking forward to Aion also but theres not enough info out yet to really get me hyped. Now Aion looks very very promising. Maybe we can hook up when it releases.

    I'm burned on L2 bro, I did the grind for a year and had a great time with the guild but it just got to brutal. I got to siege, raid and scrap with some of the BEST gamers I ever played with but like anything else, it was time to move on. I'm doing mainly Shooters and RPG's right now.

  • gatherisgatheris Member UncommonPosts: 1,016
    Originally posted by Khalathwyr


    *sigh* Why bother, I ask myself. Why even attempt to explain the point that the amount of raids in this game are limited to a few lore related instances and that you can find equal value items through regular grouping, a very limited chance through solo play and through crafting? Why point out the fact that the devs have stated this time and again? Why say any of it when it'll just be dismissed?
    Meh, more game for me!



    hadn't realized this was an old story - must have missed that dev blog during my off and on checking of the lotr website over the past year - which is why it came as such a shock to me

    but still...

    how long do you think just a few instances will last - when the rush to the endgamers start bitching about having nothing to do on top of their complaining about not getting the very best uber loot for all the trouble they go through during their raids?

    more and more resources will be used to keep these people subscribing with more ridiculously difficult dungeons with better and better loot - and yes it will have to be better than what can be achieved by those that do not raid - otherwise (from what i can tell) why bother raiding

    so yes, roll your eyes and wonder why you bother - this is how the story will unfold - no matter what a GM/Dev promises - i think even you know that really

    Thank-you Torak - enjoyed your posts

    image

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Originally posted by gatheris

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr


    *sigh* Why bother, I ask myself. Why even attempt to explain the point that the amount of raids in this game are limited to a few lore related instances and that you can find equal value items through regular grouping, a very limited chance through solo play and through crafting? Why point out the fact that the devs have stated this time and again? Why say any of it when it'll just be dismissed?
    Meh, more game for me!



    hadn't realized this was an old story - must have missed that dev blog during my off and on checking of the lotr website over the past year - which is why it came as such a shock to me

    but still...

    how long do you think just a few instances will last - when the rush to the endgamers start bitching about having nothing to do on top of their complaining about not getting the very best uber loot for all the trouble they go through during their raids?

    more and more resources will be used to keep these people subscribing with more ridiculously difficult dungeons with better and better loot - and yes it will have to be better than what can be achieved by those that do not raid - otherwise (from what i can tell) why bother raiding

    so yes, roll your eyes and wonder why you bother - this is how the story will unfold - no matter what a GM/Dev promises - i think even you know that really

    Thank-you Torak - enjoyed your posts

    Well, let me first begin by apologizing if I came off harse to you. There are a lot of a certain type of creature around these forums lately (of the angry troll variety) and it is my fault for assuming you were another of there ilk. I understand what you mean about the desires of certain hard core raiders, but I also have seen it stated many times that while LOTRO will have some raids, it will not be raid centric. The fact that Turbine has stuck to this mantra throughout only gives me reason to believe them and not pause to doubt them. We all know the "proof is in the pudding", as they say, and I am fairly confident that being able to get equal gear from raids, soloing (albeit a very rare chance), grouping and crafting will remain throughout all content additions.

    Do I know that? Yes, for previous games. This game is an opportunity for that not to happen, and I believe Turbine will stick to that mentality as the community on the official forums has made it pretty clear they don't want the type of end-game play that WoW has, with Turbine acknowleding that point. End the end, we'll see and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It won't be the first time and certainly not the last. Myself, I'm not big on raiding. I may do the based on their significance to the story, but I'm in no hurry to get to them. From everything that I know right now I don't see this being an issue. Cheers!

    Torak- I know what you mean about the bugginess with MMOs these days. We can only hope that more funds are invested toward quality Assurance in game design with future MMO titles. Either that, or companies will need to start taking a year or two more development time, which I don't see happening. I've got a really, really, really good gut feeling that LOTRO will have a great launch and surprise some folks with how solid it is.  Either that or it's gas from the taco salad I just ate.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • gatherisgatheris Member UncommonPosts: 1,016

    well - i do hope you are correct but recent (vanguard for one) disappointments have jaded me quite a bit

    whats 50 bucks i suppose - if not here i would certainly blow it somewhere else i guess - just don't want to contribute to the continuing problem of early/buggy/broken/missing content releases

    the biggest one is missing content  and the promise of adding whatever it is after release - yeah right 

    image

  • Nitros284Nitros284 Member Posts: 82

    "Raiding is an easy way out for devs and its very a tangible goal for players to relate to. My theory is when an MMO gets to open ended, like Ryzom, it gets to difficult for the type of player MMO's draw (achiever types mainly) to identify with. MMO's don't draw the the more imaginitive or RPG focused players. They are to tedious and limited for them. The typical MMO player is far more interested in advancing the math then immersion in the gameworld. MMO players will easily forsake character choices for better math in creation and classes. (min/maxers and templaters)"

     

     

    I tip my hat to you and take a bow as well as a loud clap; WELL DONE!

    That is incredibly well said! There are no better words than that.

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