well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
I read that article, and had a lot of trouble trying to work out what point he was trying to make, let alone how he was trying to make it, and I still don't get why he was trying to make it
well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
WTF
My head hurts. Now that statement sounds like a "Catch 22"
well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
That is possibly one of the most retarded quotes I have ever read.
For one, logic is a concept created by us humans, to merely categorize something as making sense.
It is also for the most part, by perspective, logic is not a force. It is an opinion.
Slap whoever wrote that whole "thesis", it sounds like a cocky 10th grade teenager making a failed attempt at sounding deep and philosophical.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
That is possibly one of the most retarded quotes I have ever read.
For one, logic is a concept created by us humans, to merely categorize something as making sense.
It is also for the most part, by perspective, logic is not a force. It is an opinion.
Slap whoever wrote that whole "thesis", it sounds like a cocky 10th grade teenager making a failed attempt at sounding deep and philosophical.
yea, thats was my first tought when i first read it (in another forum), but thats not really true if you think about it more closely. There is actually a point in it.
well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
As far as I can see, this statement questions the nature of God and logic. It is not a logical argument against the existence of God. To me, parts of this look like a great example of why human logic is often flawed - some narrow minded "if...then" statements. When making logical arguments, one has to be aware that one has not necessarily thought of all the possibilities and just because you haven't though of it, doesn't mean it isn't so.
Anyway, the main question we have here is "was logic created, does it just exist anyway or is it just our brains inventing a concept to cling to something so we can even begin reasoning and understanding eachother's reasoning (or is it something else)?"....and if we're going to try to answer that, we first need to define "logic".
OK, quick breakdown of the quotation:
If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic.
If God is eternal or outside of time, then using the word "before" makes no sense.
If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God.
I don't see how this follows. There may well be a logical reason why I exist, but that doesn't seem to force me to always be logical.
If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator.
Yep, "could". Although the question: "if God exists, then why does he exist?" begs the questions "does there have to be a reason for everything?" and "does something that exists eternally need to have a reason for existing?" which brings us to the last sentence which works with the assumption that the answer is "no" to both those questions...
If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
"does not" should be "may not" because really we don't know the answers. There's no justification to use the word "equally" here. Who has the statistics to show how probable something like that is? Aside from that, yes it's a logical possibility that logic, not God exists outside of time, as it is that logic AND God exist outside of time, or that some other form of logic exists outside time....
I wonder how easy it would be to prove that logic doesn't exist using the same kind of logical arguments.
Edit: Grats on post 1000 Aldaron! And a good definition of "logic"
no way in hell im going to go thru all that, but the way i see what it means is that if theres a logical reason for God to exist, then the reason was there before God thus making God have a 'beginning'. If God has always been there (no 'beginning') then God created logic and there is no logical reason for God to exist thus creating the possibility that the Universe needs no reason to its existance.
or something
Found the page where the quote was originally taken from, if someone isnt bored enough yet:
no way in hell im going to go thru all that, but the way i see what it means is that if theres a logical reason for God to exist, then the reason was there before God thus making God have a 'beginning'. If God has always been there (no 'beginning') then God created logic and there is no logical reason for God to exist thus creating the possibility that the Universe needs no reason to its existance.
or something
Found the page where the quote was originally taken from, if someone isnt bored enough yet:
OK, having read the whole article, it seems that as was pointed out already, the author appears to be suggesting logic as some kind of force or physical law. Unless I'm mistaken, logic is generally understood to be a method of thinking...a rational progression of thought. Without some kind of being to have rational thought, logic cannot exist. So, now I'm thinking it illogical to say that logic could have existed before God, or that logic could exist outside time without the existence of God.
well actually, using logic god/gods dont exist. Because everything must have a beginning, so who created god/gods? You can say that god has always been there, but thats just not very logical, is it?
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
Interesting, but a typical chicken or the egg kinda problem which can be solved by atypical thinking.
Why couldn't have God created logic? God exists outside the limits of time so God could easily use something it has yet to create. That's only logical.
So you're right in saying that it is equally possible for logic being one of the foudnations of the universe. But thinks about this: why couldn't God change logic? After all, what we perceive as logic, with our simple 2-dimensionally thinking brains and are ideas based on causality, is bound by the laws of physics. And in the case of life, by syntropy. If those rules were to be changed then logically logic would have to be changed too.
So all in all we can conclude that, while the laws of syntropy and logic may create a God-like entity, this entity (being a god) has the power to change those laws.
See how were are limited in our thinking by time?
BTW, as far as I know my theories (which have probably been hought out by others before) are the result of combining various theories for the past ten years. So they may change.
Draenor, as per usual you have no notion about what I actually wanted to say. This thread can be in defence of religion and christianity, as it contains proof for the existence of God.
So read the article, laugh at the morons slandering Christianity and logic and then you're free to get back on your high horse.
Interesting, but a typical chicken or the egg kinda problem which can be solved by atypical thinking.
Why couldn't have God created logic? God exists outside the limits of time so God could easily use something it has yet to create. That's only logical.
So you're right in saying that it is equally possible for logic being one of the foudnations of the universe. But thinks about this: why couldn't God change logic? After all, what we perceive as logic, with our simple 2-dimensionally thinking brains and are ideas based on causality, is bound by the laws of physics. And in the case of life, by syntropy. If those rules were to be changed then logically logic would have to be changed too.
So all in all we can conclude that, while the laws of syntropy and logic may create a God-like entity, this entity (being a god) has the power to change those laws.
See how were are limited in our thinking by time?
BTW, as far as I know my theories (which have probably been hought out by others before) are the result of combining various theories for the past ten years. So they may change.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
Interesting, but a typical chicken or the egg kinda problem which can be solved by atypical thinking.
Why couldn't have God created logic? God exists outside the limits of time so God could easily use something it has yet to create. That's only logical.
So you're right in saying that it is equally possible for logic being one of the foudnations of the universe. But thinks about this: why couldn't God change logic? After all, what we perceive as logic, with our simple 2-dimensionally thinking brains and are ideas based on causality, is bound by the laws of physics. And in the case of life, by syntropy. If those rules were to be changed then logically logic would have to be changed too.
So all in all we can conclude that, while the laws of syntropy and logic may create a God-like entity, this entity (being a god) has the power to change those laws.
See how were are limited in our thinking by time?
BTW, as far as I know my theories (which have probably been hought out by others before) are the result of combining various theories for the past ten years. So they may change.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
You clearly don't understand my point, which is understandable.
God-----------> laws of physics and logic---------> creation of the universe ---------->.....
That's how you and most people see god and the universe. In a linear way. And that's the theory being disproven in that fine article.
This is how I see it.
So you see, God isn't bound by time, or anything for that matter.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God.
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God. Huh? Why's that?
i still think none of you crasped the idea behind that quote . I think what its saying (havent read anything else in that site) is that if theres a purpose behind the existance of God, then something has created God as an answer to that purpose. If God was before everything (including logic) then there is no reason for Gods existance, the concept of God becomes pointless, by logic.
or i dunno.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God. Huh? Why's that? ok im done here. What ever you said is correct and good. This has gone so much beyond anything even remotely interesting, just bleh.
Dude, I honestly don't understand. ^^ Please explain.
Do I have to beg? I will, you know.
i would, but i cant explain it any better than i already have. Read my previous posts and the quote, and if it still doesnt make any sense then perhaps it really doesnt.
Originally posted by paade Originally posted by MadAce Dude, I honestly don't understand. ^^ Please explain.Do I have to beg? I will, you know.
i would, but i cant explain it any better than i already have. Read my previous posts and the quote, and if it still doesnt make any sense then perhaps it really doesnt.
Comments
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
I read that article, and had a lot of trouble trying to work out what point he was trying to make, let alone how he was trying to make it, and I still don't get why he was trying to make it
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
WTF
My head hurts. Now that statement sounds like a "Catch 22"
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
That is possibly one of the most retarded quotes I have ever read.
For one, logic is a concept created by us humans, to merely categorize something as making sense.
It is also for the most part, by perspective, logic is not a force. It is an opinion.
Slap whoever wrote that whole "thesis", it sounds like a cocky 10th grade teenager making a failed attempt at sounding deep and philosophical.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
That is possibly one of the most retarded quotes I have ever read.
For one, logic is a concept created by us humans, to merely categorize something as making sense.
It is also for the most part, by perspective, logic is not a force. It is an opinion.
Slap whoever wrote that whole "thesis", it sounds like a cocky 10th grade teenager making a failed attempt at sounding deep and philosophical.
yea, thats was my first tought when i first read it (in another forum), but thats not really true if you think about it more closely. There is actually a point in it.Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
As far as I can see, this statement questions the nature of God and logic. It is not a logical argument against the existence of God. To me, parts of this look like a great example of why human logic is often flawed - some narrow minded "if...then" statements. When making logical arguments, one has to be aware that one has not necessarily thought of all the possibilities and just because you haven't though of it, doesn't mean it isn't so.
Anyway, the main question we have here is "was logic created, does it just exist anyway or is it just our brains inventing a concept to cling to something so we can even begin reasoning and understanding eachother's reasoning (or is it something else)?"....and if we're going to try to answer that, we first need to define "logic".
OK, quick breakdown of the quotation:
If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic.
If God is eternal or outside of time, then using the word "before" makes no sense.
If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God.
I don't see how this follows. There may well be a logical reason why I exist, but that doesn't seem to force me to always be logical.
If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator.
Yep, "could". Although the question: "if God exists, then why does he exist?" begs the questions "does there have to be a reason for everything?" and "does something that exists eternally need to have a reason for existing?" which brings us to the last sentence which works with the assumption that the answer is "no" to both those questions...
If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
"does not" should be "may not" because really we don't know the answers. There's no justification to use the word "equally" here. Who has the statistics to show how probable something like that is? Aside from that, yes it's a logical possibility that logic, not God exists outside of time, as it is that logic AND God exist outside of time, or that some other form of logic exists outside time....
I wonder how easy it would be to prove that logic doesn't exist using the same kind of logical arguments.
Edit: Grats on post 1000 Aldaron! And a good definition of "logic"
or something
Found the page where the quote was originally taken from, if someone isnt bored enough yet:
www.vexen.co.uk/religion/god_logic.html
Ah, good point. I hadn't thought about it that way. Perhaps you're right
Although, to counteract that argument, he does say "I think I mean "the laws of cause-and-affect" when I say "logic"", so just maybe he does. http://vexen.livejournal.com/51520.html?thread=820288#t820288
Why must everything have a beginning?
The concept of an eternal God or a God outside time as we know it maybe hard to us to conceptualise and understand, but logic doesn't come into it. There's nothing illogical in accepting the possibility that something might not work in a way you can easily grasp.
this is going to be a never ending argument... so instead ill just quote someone and leave it at that
"If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause."
Interesting, but a typical chicken or the egg kinda problem which can be solved by atypical thinking.
Why couldn't have God created logic? God exists outside the limits of time so God could easily use something it has yet to create. That's only logical.
So you're right in saying that it is equally possible for logic being one of the foudnations of the universe. But thinks about this: why couldn't God change logic? After all, what we perceive as logic, with our simple 2-dimensionally thinking brains and are ideas based on causality, is bound by the laws of physics. And in the case of life, by syntropy. If those rules were to be changed then logically logic would have to be changed too.
So all in all we can conclude that, while the laws of syntropy and logic may create a God-like entity, this entity (being a god) has the power to change those laws.
See how were are limited in our thinking by time?
BTW, as far as I know my theories (which have probably been hought out by others before) are the result of combining various theories for the past ten years. So they may change.
Draenor, as per usual you have no notion about what I actually wanted to say. This thread can be in defence of religion and christianity, as it contains proof for the existence of God.
So read the article, laugh at the morons slandering Christianity and logic and then you're free to get back on your high horse.
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or i dunno.
or i dunno.
You clearly don't understand my point, which is understandable.
God-----------> laws of physics and logic---------> creation of the universe ---------->.....
That's how you and most people see god and the universe. In a linear way. And that's the theory being disproven in that fine article.
This is how I see it.
So you see, God isn't bound by time, or anything for that matter.
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These guys are probably the same ones that start topics like: "EU p00nz u USA!!111", "EU most powerfol in wurld!!" and "lol we EU ownz u!!".
"The EU will possess a modern, nuclear-armed military" - so? its not like we need nukes, or a large military force for that matter
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I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions.
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I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God.
I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God. Huh? Why's that?
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I'm not sure that is quite the point that Vexen guy is making, but I'll refer to your point here.
So, if we're going with the idea that God is eternal, and we're then saying that something eternal wasn't created and so it coundn't be created with a purpose, we're then making an assumption that it therefore doesn't have a purpose in the same way that a tool a person makes has a purpose (whereas an eternal sentient being could make His own purpose). You could then just about use the words "there is no reason for God's existence", but that does not mean the same as "there is no reason to believe in God's existence" which you appear to be making the semantic jump to.
By the same "logic", if God doesn't exist, then there's no reason for the universe and everything in it to exist, therefore the concept of you becomes pointless. So perhaps you should stop believing in yourself.
That logic uses action-reaction logic, which is flawed when dealing with entities that surpass all dimensions. yes, i understand that perfectly, all those 11 dimensions and moving back and forth between time and all. But thats not really the point. The point is, if God was 'before' everything then there is no reason for Gods existance (because God created reasons), the concept of God becomes pointless, so you might as well say the Universe has always been there. No need for God. Huh? Why's that? ok im done here. What ever you said is correct and good. This has gone so much beyond anything even remotely interesting, just bleh.
Do I have to beg? I will, you know.
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it doesnt..
I’ve heard a lot of statements about entities who exist outside of time/space.
In order for anything to EXIST, it must be taking up space. In order for it to do anything (for example, create a universe) it requires time.
Therefore, this is a contradictory and self-refuting idea. (not to mention a retarded )
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