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WoW, Vanguard and raiding
brostyn
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,092
Ok, this is for current players of WoW, and people who are close to Vanguard.
I hate raiding. I won't do it. That's that.
I also hate games that make the drops during raids insane.
My question is about WoW; I read that Burning Crusade is leaning away from raid content(ie. same level of gear can be had by groups/auction)? Is this true?
My question about Vanguard; If I want to be the among the best geared will I have to raid?
That's all I'm asking. I don't care how much you love raiding, and you feel raiders should get God Mode. We agree to disagree. I just want to know if either of these games will be worth playing or are they just like EQ. Thank you very much.
I hate raiding. I won't do it. That's that.
I also hate games that make the drops during raids insane.
My question is about WoW; I read that Burning Crusade is leaning away from raid content(ie. same level of gear can be had by groups/auction)? Is this true?
My question about Vanguard; If I want to be the among the best geared will I have to raid?
That's all I'm asking. I don't care how much you love raiding, and you feel raiders should get God Mode. We agree to disagree. I just want to know if either of these games will be worth playing or are they just like EQ. Thank you very much.
Comments
Vanguard is supposedly 20% Raiding, 20% Solo, and 60% group based. They have not said anything about the best gear coming from raids only (As far as I know). But they have stated the best gear will come from all three of the Spheres (Adventuring, Crafting, Diplomacy)
So you may need a high level Diplomat to get you access to the Dungeon, for the Adventurer to go and kill the boss who will drop the Epic Hilt that your Crafter needs to make the Epic Sword of Epeen.
But, given a large part of the fanbase for Vanguard is the old Eq crowd, its hard to say how things will go once the subscription numbers start telling tales.
Oh, well. I just hope they do that instead of making the game imbalanced. As long as the gear is balanced I would be very pleased.
Thanks for the reply!
Your question about vanguard... No.
Im in the beta.
In Vanguard: 80% of the gear is obtainable outside of raiding, which you will get relatively fast, as everyone else. WAY ahead of the expansion. Eventually, as you wait for expansion, you will realize you miss 20% of the gear, which mean that 20% of your gear will be inferior to raiders. By having extra time to kill before expansions, raiders will get that 20% extra gear.*
When the expansion come out, you will be 20+ % weaker (10% actually in any give topic, yet it add on and accumulate, 10% less hps, 10% less damage, 10% less ac, so in truth, you will be about a LOT weaker, as they all add up). And that is without considering the changes and the turning Vanguard will take as the expansions come in...that is assuming the game survive that long; which I don't believe will happen. Many players experience raiding in WoW and won't bear it anymore. WoW is wonderful in the sense that everyone playing that game get to raiding all the faster, which make me far less of a minority as I used to be.
Personnally I have to get to a stance as drastic as: Raid-free servers or die. I honnestly don't care about raiding, as long as it doesn't affect me in any form, and when Brad is involved, it require raid-free servers. Grouping deserve EVERYTHING that enhance grouping performance, anyone thinking otherwise can meet me on the battlefield of design!
Peoples play MMOs to group first and foremost, enforcing other gameplays is an extremely short-sighed vision, with no global understanding whatsoever.
*A casual-grouper who never obtain everything is still affected negatively, however it is less direct. The attitude the game dynamic has is unfriendly towards PUGs (raiders despite PUGs in general), it remove any hope should the casual for any reason plays more, he is bottlenecked at raiding, Peoples will ditch groups in the game, and most importantly, they would consider grouping a side activity that isn't worth much; this attitude is not deserving of "uberness" in anyway.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
"The game is going to be challenging.
The game is going to focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork.
If I had to compare it to another game, take original EQ, Kunark, and Velious -- that sort of challenge. "
"Additionally we will have areas that are more geared for one of the categories: casual, group, and raid. The casual areas require less of a contiguous time commitment and you don't need a full group. The grouping areas, well, require you to group. Think classic, old school grouping. Then the raid areas, well that's pretty obvious.
Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region."
The game is basically EQ1 but harder. There are some changes to make it seem less tedious, but it is still going to be hard. You will need to raid to get the best items. If you are a casual player playing in the casual areas you are not going to get the best items. The goal behind Vanguard is the more time you invest and the harder the challenge the more stuff you get. The game is aiming at another audience besides the casual gamer.
Okay, sorry to be brutal, but I will answer you what FoH are thinking when they read you: NOOOB!
The imbalance was there, and as grossly as in the later expansions. However, it was harder to see it, harder to get. Raiding was harder, the reward was there. A 100 hps item at Kunark era is grossly overpowering, worser than anything in the current EQ, since the gap is merely double the stats now...a 100 hps item back there...you have any idea what it meant? For some reason you left out Velious, prolly you know of the Primal or some stuff, which in fact is good, but not even as good as some stuff back then. Non-raiders where finding 10 hps items good, and raiding was already granting 100 hps items! Back then the only difference is that raiding wasn't easily accessible, it was just as badly unbalancing, it was just toward a slight minority. And Brad show it, he wants to make raiding accessible to as many persons as possible. The fact you didn't realize it doesn't make it any better.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I miss DAoC
Okay, sorry to be brutal, but I will answer you what FoH are thinking when they read you: NOOOB!
The imbalance was there, and as grossly as in the later expansions. However, it was harder to see it, harder to get. Raiding was harder, the reward was there. A 100 hps item at Kunark era is grossly overpowering, worser than anything in the current EQ, since the gap is merely double the stats now...a 100 hps item back there...you have any idea what it meant? For some reason you left out Velious, prolly you know of the Primal or some stuff, which in fact is good, but not even as good as some stuff back then. Non-raiders where finding 10 hps items good, and raiding was already granting 100 hps items! Back then the only difference is that raiding wasn't easily accessible, it was just as badly unbalancing, it was just toward a slight minority. And Brad show it, he wants to make raiding accessible to as many persons as possible. The fact you didn't realize it doesn't make it any better.
Sorry, but in Kunark era +20HPS was considered very good. There were no +100HP until velious. Which is the reason why I didn't include velious. It was the beginning of the end for me.OK, maybe the planes(never did that), but I think the planes were added past Kunark.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Just go to FoH website and check old news, old loot...PRIOR Velious...and you will see, among other things...all EPICS are there, Veeshan; and as you mention, PoF and PoH. You are either lying to yourself, or to everyone else, in either case it isn't any good. Of course, SOME 100 hps items appears AFTER Velious, but MANY where there, way before Velious.
And for non-raiders, 20 hps items where indeed godlike and quite rare, but raiders where finding them silly already, subloot. Thinking otherwise is kinda like thinking that the quest armors in Velious where good...which they weren't. (Thurgadin, Kael and V)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
EPICS where all there before Velious for sure.
And EPICS are easy to find. Raid-only. And they are in the planes, yet not in Velious, which show you, the planes where there before Velious, since EPICS where there before and you have to go to the planes to get EPICS components.
Some of Veeshan loot is quite nice (for the time). Of course, like everything, 90% of the loot is trash, this is the way of EQ; you may remember the red looking robe, that was trash loot from the planes, way back then...and any grouper would have drool over that, and it was tradeable just to show you how meek it was.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'm okay with a game, Vanguard:SoH, for example delievering 20% solo content, 60% group content, & 20% raid content per say. Are those exact percentages of the content & will Sigil stay honest to those are good questions. Unless it's a crucial item, quest, faction, etc for my character & I don't feel like attempting it's path of acquirement then I'm okay with not having it. We can always reconsider & try something later if we deem it enough of a value. If it's crucial for my character, then yes require some participation by another or others in helping perhaps, but don't make it an overzealous ordeal. An exception for example would be an Epic.
I do think EQ went over the ledge with raid content being the primary source of better gear, & mostly it's a gear based game. EQ did as well have content for soloing, grouping, & raiding as well. Problem with EQ is in it's later years most, if not all, the gear was per raiding & grouping was deminished in it's capacity for bridging soloing to raiding because of all the LFGing in PoKnowledge without much success. I still think EQ could wage a nice come-back, but I think SOE has decided to place resources upon a different area now even though it wouldn't require much. As a game becomes older the dynamics for allowing players' progression needs to be flexible an evolve as well. That & the lack of SOE listening & respecting the players/customers probably hurt more than once. Probably now since SOE doesn't see much of a new player growth for EQ they need to focus on raiding. Also, EQ should be made into a movie!
Vanguard:SoH it seems, so far, is beginning a similar path that EQ mucked through. Players/customers do indeed want a challenge. We also want the avenue to be able to overcome the pixel obstacles without investing gluttonous amounts of time just for Time's sake. Ah, them good ol' EQ time-sink days.
That statement about Vanguard:SoH being like EQ just harder I hope isn't true. It sounds hollow to me anyways. If it is then I don't feel V:SoH will have a lasting appeal to even all the previous EQ players. A more refined EQ sounds great till there's that enlightenment of deja vu. I'll probably try V:SoH, but if it's just another EQ with better quality then my subscription will be short-lived like a punted Gnome. Content rules yes, but allow the majority of the player-base to access the content. That's where EQ began it's demise.
I'm probably going to learn of WoW in the next few days & begin my fledging path on that land. Who knows if that will be as fun as EQ once was, or more fun. It definitely sounds like a more friendly approach for gaming if I cannot afford to play all day. Then again, I've also been reading where it's reaching a critical point where it might be leaning towards a grind-fest too. The PvP honor system reads like it's a heavy grind, but on the way to that tier level it sounds fun. Flying mounts in the BC release ... awesome!
We all can choose to try or not to try & learn if we want to keep playing any of these games. These wonderful developers that create these pixel choices for us mostly do a good job. We all cannot be happy with the game(s) all the time. These same developers need to remember though that we want to play these games for the fun of it, all of us just not a select amount of players. Good luck to all our avatars!
You guys want a WOW game. In life the harder you work the better results you get. This is a fact.
Vanguard may wanna show this in there game. Im sorry but any game that gives the same rewards for playing for an hr a day as playing for 6 hrs a day is not a game i would want. If im investing more time I want a more rewarding item or expierence then someone who plays for 30 mins here and there. Hey go work at your job for 3 hrs then say well im tired going home, see what they tell you.
I am happy that you have such an opinion, but I don't. If I trust someone, slowly, level by level, I expect them to remain true to what they show me, not to all of a sudden require me to do the lamest thing on earth.
See, if a game reward grouping for 50 levels and make me play GROUPING gameplay only, and then switch to a raiding rewarding system, I call that a betrayal. It is like been very sweet and nice with your wife, then when she give you a few kids, you start asking for anal sex, all of a sudden? That make no sense and that is lame. However, in this case, a game has no needs while the players have some, which make it all the most horrible.
If I let's down my guard and trust some devs to give me a great game, I expect them to not betray that by changing the rules AFTER 50 levels. If raiding isn't require at level 1, it never should. It is a distinct gameplay and it is THAT horrible, especially the raiders....meh, do you actually try to talk with FoH or AL folks? Gah, no dev sane in their mind would try to enforce contact with the trash players these guilds harbor.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So, if you want to avoid raiding, do not play a game with raid content, or find the one with the least amount possible. Off hand, the games in development that are least likely to have massive raid content are AoC, WAR, and Stargate. Stargate is based on 4 man groups, AoC and WAR are PvP based games. Mythic I think learned from their raid experiment and the general grumblings from people that play WoW I think have reinforced that. Not to say these games won't have raid content at relase or in the future, they just seem the least likely to have much of it.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Your comparing an apple to an orange.
If your boss said hey work 5 more hrs a day for a month and you get a big raise your sure in hell gonna do it. This is same with raiding, the more you do it the better reward you get.
Now i dont think the difference should be HUGE but raid items SHOULD be better then items anyone can get. Now how much better is another story. Also Vanguard team has said if i remember that you wont always get the best stuff from raids. The items will all come from the 3 spheres. You may find a uber item in raid and may find the same quality item crafting or thru diplomacy etc. So for anyone to say vanguards best items will be in raids is a direct counter statement of what the Sigil team has said./
Markn12, sorry but in real life the amount of investment, whatever that arbitrary denomination is, you do NOT always get back. That is real life! Besides this is a GAME, not real life. Coincidently, most of us that play games do so as an escapism from real life for awhile, not to make it our real life. Though that would be cool, I want a holodeck too.
That being said, your example of a player investing six hours of play compared to a player investing only one hour of play ... well I too think the six hour play should be getting more of a reward. Since I played EQ, I have to say I witnessed more than one time where that wasn't the case with time-sinks. Some players would comit days for an item, whereas some other player would just show up & get fortune smiled upon him/her & get the same item without the same amount of investment. Sometimes I benefited, sometimes I did not. However, the balance that players that invest more should be offered a better reward I still agree with, however that's not always how it equates with the games.
Anofalye, I liked your analogy & I agree with it when stated like that. Perhaps having all three, or whatever number, methods of play available of some sorts from a certain level would allow a more diverse path for progression. But yes, that pass the point of no return to only learn the game is now choosing a different approach to progress is a bit of a coercion.
I think it's just not well thought-out game design. I'm hoping that once I try WoW it'll offer more choices than EQ did, even at the higher levels. I do like what I've read about a selection of rewards via quests.
JulianDracos, StarGate Online hell yeah.
I'm looking forward to it, but it'll probably be a couple of years away. Till then, I'm anxiously anticipating the 10th, & last, season of StarGate.
Besides, I gotta go with what my computer will allow me to enjoy too. EQ was easy, same for GW, so WoW should be too. EQ2 was too steep & V:SoH probably will require even more. The RPG Oblivion just murders my system.
So until I get a better system I'll play what games I can.To all, happy New Year & such 
We're talking about video games here, the point of video games is... to have fun. If I wanted to work, I could do real work and get actual money instead of pretty pixels. That's why I despise raiding, it forces you to either treat a video game like a job or be second rate in other areas of the video game. Raiding doesn't take any real ingame ability, just tons of patience, the ability to repeat simple patterns, a willingness to schedule game time like a job, lots of free time, and a willingness to put up with power-tripping raid leaders and various drama.
See? Exactly what I'm talking about. I personally don't want a game that caters at all to anyone with your mentality.
Nope, completely and utterly wrong. Raid items SHOULD BE equal or inferior to items gotten from other types of content, since a game should not force people to decide between having fun and being second rate. Look up the word 'game' in a dictionary if you're not clear on the concept.
It's pretty telling that raiding (and the people who infest raid guilds) is so unpleasant that even the biggest proponents of raiding will only endure it if they get better loot.
I wish questing would be more of a focus in more games. EQ always had the foundation for it, but always seemed to had been an oversight to finishing it & making it substantial. Those are my regards though, I liked questing most in EQ & seeing the sights as much as possible. So much in EQ scenery wasted by only being seen by most of the raiders.