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General: S. Korea Tries To Control Gold Farming

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  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by CastorHoS









        I have always asked why a gamer should be able to profit from a game they do not own. If you go out and try to resell music, books or anything else that someone else has rights on and if you are caught you are going to be paying fines. The difference, and this is the only difference, is simply that online games are only just approaching financial success that allows the companies who develop or publish them to carry enough weight that laws are able to be put in place to cover areas that have never been covered before.

       

    so by your line of thinking... in order for me to listen to songs, or read books.. i have to go kill song writers and authors and hope they drop a new song and/or book?  because that's the comparison you're trying to make in your apples v. oranges comparison.   when you play a game, there's probably a random drop thing going on.  are the songs on a cd random?  is the story of a book random?  does it take hours/weeks of listening to an album, or reading a book, in order to get a new, rare song/story?



    your comparison isn't realistic.  you might as well say... well, if people can go to the moon and take rocks without having to pay a tax to the moon people, then i should be able to fart in the bath tub.



    several long-term mmos (uo and diablo2 come  to mind) don't care if you buy/sell their stuff.  if i'm wrong, then i guess ebay has a litany of lawsuits waiting to hit it, or that are held up in the courts atm.



    you're right about laws coming out though... games like entropia are going to end up with the laws the other way around -- gaming companies will have to be very careful about whom they ban and why... individual states/countries will come up with laws protecting the gamer, not the company.  why?  same reason if your cable/phone go down for X hours/days and you can't access them, and you get credit back.  because the people paying for the games are the ones casting votes and the ones paying the salaries of both the gaming companies and congress (in the U.S.).  the consumer is the one that gets shafted. 



    bleh, i'm not going deep into this tangent, too early.

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • CastorHoSCastorHoS Member Posts: 54
    Originally posted by damian7

    Originally posted by CastorHoS









        I have always asked why a gamer should be able to profit from a game they do not own. If you go out and try to resell music, books or anything else that someone else has rights on and if you are caught you are going to be paying fines. The difference, and this is the only difference, is simply that online games are only just approaching financial success that allows the companies who develop or publish them to carry enough weight that laws are able to be put in place to cover areas that have never been covered before.

       

    so by your line of thinking... in order for me to listen to songs, or read books.. i have to go kill song writers and authors and hope they drop a new song and/or book?  because that's the comparison you're trying to make in your apples v. oranges comparison.   when you play a game, there's probably a random drop thing going on.  are the songs on a cd random?  is the story of a book random?  does it take hours/weeks of listening to an album, or reading a book, in order to get a new, rare song/story?



    your comparison isn't realistic.  you might as well say... well, if people can go to the moon and take rocks without having to pay a tax to the moon people, then i should be able to fart in the bath tub.



    several long-term mmos (uo and diablo2 come  to mind) don't care if you buy/sell their stuff.  if i'm wrong, then i guess ebay has a litany of lawsuits waiting to hit it, or that are held up in the courts atm.



    you're right about laws coming out though... games like entropia are going to end up with the laws the other way around -- gaming companies will have to be very careful about whom they ban and why... individual states/countries will come up with laws protecting the gamer, not the company.  why?  same reason if your cable/phone go down for X hours/days and you can't access them, and you get credit back.  because the people paying for the games are the ones casting votes and the ones paying the salaries of both the gaming companies and congress (in the U.S.).  the consumer is the one that gets shafted. 



    bleh, i'm not going deep into this tangent, too early.

    I do not know where you ever come up with your logic at.  Let me explain this point.  What you are saying that once a game is put out that the company that owns it has less rights then the people paying to play it. Meaning if they were landlords renting out a house that the people paying rent had more rights to the house then the owner would have.



    Any in other industry with this type of product if someone were to take portions of a product and try to resell it then they would be open for punishment by law.



    1. You can not steal a cable or dish signal and resell it without permission of the company who broadcasts it. You can not even legally piggy back someone else's signal.



    2. You can not resell music or books without permission.



    Entropia is not even comparable in any fashion to what gold farmers are.  Entropia is based of the premise that you use real life money to purchase things in game. That is not anything even remotely close to what this topic is based on.





    There has been one case and it in Asia of a person going to court with a game company and winning over an account they paid for and all that person got was the account and items back. This person was not trying to make any real life money by selling anything, it only had to do with whether or not he was entitled to a reasonable expectation of service for the money he paid.



    No one that plays an online game and pays for it is entitled to any reasonable expectation of being able to resale that is done within that game for money of their own.



    I stress that term "reasonable expectation" because you will begin to see that a lot when cases and laws dealing with this begin to appear.






  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    Originally posted by CastorHoS



    I do not know where you ever come up with your logic at.  Let me explain this point.  What you are saying that once a game is put out that the company that owns it has less rights then the people paying to play it. Meaning if they were landlords renting out a house that the people paying rent had more rights to the house then the owner would have.



    in certain states in the U.S. that IS the case.



    Any in other industry with this type of product if someone were to take portions of a product and try to resell it then they would be open for punishment by law.



    any other industry with what type of product?  i can't re-create albums/movies and resell them, but i CAN sell the original.  are you honestly not seeing how your comparison IS apples v. oranges?  you're not duping gold and selling it, you're not making copies of xyz and selling it.  you're either selling ingame currency or ingame goods, all of which would have to be found/created, not re-created, not duped.  it's not the same thing.



    1. You can not steal a cable or dish signal and resell it without permission of the company who broadcasts it. You can not even legally piggy back someone else's signal.



    and the moon rocks and farting in the tub?  YOUR initial comparison makes as little sense.  did you notice where i stated that i get credit for outages with the cable/phone?  which was the point of the statement.  can you demand credits for time unable to play (game company at fault) online games AND receive them?  no.  not yet.  please follow the train of thought.



    2. You can not resell music or books without permission.



    i can't ebay my old cds or books?  i can't go to the music store and sell them there? i have to get permission from a company in order to go resell these items?  oh, or are you sidetracked and talking about something different again... like making copies and selling those?  i'm sorry if you don't see the difference.



    Entropia is not even comparable in any fashion to what gold farmers are.  Entropia is based of the premise that you use real life money to purchase things in game. That is not anything even remotely close to what this topic is based on.



    it's a virtual game, in a virtual world.  you pay to play other games, it's only a monthly fee for some, for others you DO pay for items. it's a lot closer to the topic than the points you're playing on.  you do realize they have f2p games where you can buy the "good" stuff for real money, right?  in that case, the company IS putting a monetary value on items.  so now, going with your previous statements, that would be like someone telling me that once i purchase a cd, i can NEVER sell that exact same original copy cd to anyone, ever.  how does that make sense?  by placing a monetary value on virtual objects, the gaming company itself is establishing a real-world economy for their items.  if i can't re-sell that item offline, then it means i can't trade it ingame either, because once it's bought it'd have to be tied to the account for ever.  that would be the same with transferring toons to other accounts or creating a new account with a toon from the original account.  you're not taking into account a plethora of happenings that occur on a daily basis.





    There has been one case and it in Asia of a person going to court with a game company and winning over an account they paid for and all that person got was the account and items back. This person was not trying to make any real life money by selling anything, it only had to do with whether or not he was entitled to a reasonable expectation of service for the money he paid.



    so you're agreeing with me, about the one case that you know of.., that there aren't currently laws in place, but that slowly laws/decisions by courts are coming down on the side of the GAMER.



    No one that plays an online game and pays for it is entitled to any reasonable expectation of being able to resale that is done within that game for money of their own.



    yet, the precedent has already been set.. for the past 9+ years, you've been able to buy/sell/trade goods from ultima online (which has always been pay to play) for real life money.  diablo2 has never cared if anyone paid real money for it's items, so there's a second precedent. i'm sure there's a number of other games as well. not to mention the number of games who themselves sell their items for real world money (and the concept i've already touched on regarding that)



     the market is there, especially when you have gamers who don't have tons of time to play in order to get the uber goodies, but, seeing as they make $100,000+ a year in real life, they're not accustomed to having second rate garbage for their entertainment, they want the GOOD stuff. 












    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • CastorHoSCastorHoS Member Posts: 54




    A precedent as far as laws go need a court ruling to set the pace for things to follow. Because something has been allowed to happen does not mean it has any legal footing or standing.



    My example of the guy in Asia that got his account back shows that courts are willing to allow the excuse of "rent" and that there is an expectation that if someone is paying for the game they are entitled to certain things. It does not cover the selling of virtual goods that do not belong to that person but rather belong to the company the own the rights to the game.



    Mr. Wood brought a good point up in the broadcast he did. If you are trying to say that people "own" the virtual property they get from the game then it should by all rights be taxed just as personnel income is taxed.



    Since no other analogy seems to get through to you lets use a very simple one. You paint some paintings, build furniture, build a house to put it all in and then rent it out to someone. While they are renting the house they start selling off your property without your permission. They then sell the house. In each instance you get paid nothing for it except the rent that is due you each month. The people that bought all of these things(except the house) are renting apartments from you and stick all this stuff into those apartments.



    or how about something even closer to the mark.



    I write, copywrite and put some software on the internet that people are able to pay a monthly subscription to use. One of these people decides to make another website and sell the software I wrote without my permission. Sure he pays a monthly subscription to use it but has he gained the right to sell that software?
  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    Niether gold farming nor the selling of gold ruin a games economy.

    The simple truth is, the game economies are designed by lazy, work ethic challanged,clueless dev teams.

    All the farming and selling does is speed up the collapse of BAD DESIGNS that would collapse on their own anyway.

    A games economy,is just like any other part of its design.Its failure to function under stress is exactly the same as the failure of features promised to be included at launch actually being there, exactly the same as the laughable  attempts at class /skill balance that grace EVERY MMO,etc...

    You want to see why these things are as bad as they are, LOOK SQUARELY AT THE INCOMPETENT DEV TEAMS THAT MADE THEM SO.

    As for this law, lets hope for the sake of the people living there that they manage to turn out a law less screwed up than the Greek Electronic gaming law from a few years back.But since your average politician is about as competent as your average dev team member, I wish Korea much luck.

  • DrowNobleDrowNoble Member Posts: 1,296

    I don't think it's a failure on a dev's part that gold farming exists.  Simply put, many people like to "cheat" or cut corners.  The difference is that entering a god code in Doom 3 only impacts your game and no one elses.  Do this in a MMOG and you're indirectly impacting other people's gameplay.  This "cheating" happens in real life, so it is no surprise that people want a shortcut in an online game they play.

    I think a better example of comparing this to a real life incident would be say a car lease.  You are leasing a car from a company (or dealership) who is letting you use their car for a monthly fee.  If you ripped out the stereo and sold it on ebay you would be liable for it as it wasn't your stereo to sell in the first place.  The "i paid Company X $200 a month for their car so it's my stereo" wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

    Oh and btw, Happy New Year Everyone! 

     

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by tkobo


    Niether gold farming nor the selling of gold ruin a games economy.
    The simple truth is, the game economies are designed by lazy, work ethic challanged,clueless dev teams.
    All the farming and selling does is speed up the collapse of BAD DESIGNS that would collapse on their own anyway.
    A games economy,is just like any other part of its design.Its failure to function under stress is exactly the same as the failure of features promised to be included at launch actually being there, exactly the same as the laughable  attempts at class /skill balance that grace EVERY MMO,etc...
    You want to see why these things are as bad as they are, LOOK SQUARELY AT THE INCOMPETENT DEV TEAMS THAT MADE THEM SO.

    As for this law, lets hope for the sake of the people living there that they manage to turn out a law less screwed up than the Greek Electronic gaming law from a few years back.But since your average politician is about as competent as your average dev team member, I wish Korea much luck.

    Do you play MMORPG's or are you talking about FPS or singleplayer games, sorry but what rock are you living under ( no disrespect) but comm'n if you really think that way you must be some sort of high end criminal cause what you are saying that it is okay to cheat just because the game lets you too?? how sad is that, i hope there are not many like you out there else MMORPG would be even more ruined then it is already starting to be ruined by the likes of you.

    What you are saying is that if a bank in real life does not have suffecient security it is okay for you to steal the money out of the bank just because the security is lacking or the people that wrote the security code are incompetent??

    Wonder what world you are living ...really ??

  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    What an over the top irrelevant post.

    So, is it you dont have a decent grasp on the english language ?  Or is it you have a reading comprehension problem ?

    NO where do i say gold selling is a "good" thing. NO where do i say it should exist OR be allowed in games.

    Yet you seem completely oblivious to this and act like some 9 year old who doesnt have a firm grip on the english language OR his/her own emotions.

    Like far too many people you react from emotion and ignorance rather than intelligent thought.

     

    Ill say it again in VERY simple words so that you MIGHT grasp the concept  presented ,this time.

    IN AN INTELLIGENT WORKING ECONOMIC DESIGN GOLD FARMING WOULD NOT WORK.But since dev teams are the inept bunch they are, they fail to realise that an open end to the amount of currency allowed to exist is the primary reason gold farming has the effect of speeding up the failure their incredibly bad,incredibly inept design would suffer under on its own anyway.

    Gold farming and selling doesnt cause the economy to fall apart ,it merely speeds the result.

    Horrible design by inept DEV teams who cant be bothered to finish the PRODUCT  they are selling,let alone strive to see it meets  an acceptable quality level is the top villain here.

    Gold farming is just an evil minion.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by tkobo


    What an over the top irrelevant post.
    So, is it you dont have a decent grasp on the english language ?  Or is it you have a reading comprehension problem ?
    NO where do i say gold selling is a "good" thing. NO where do i say it should exist OR be allowed in games.
    Yet you seem completely oblivious to this and act like some 9 year old who doesnt have a firm grip on the english language OR his/her own emotions.
    Like far too many people you react from emotion and ignorance rather than intelligent thought.
     
    Ill say it again in VERY simple words so that you MIGHT grasp the concept  presented ,this time.
    IN AN INTELLIGENT WORKING ECONOMIC DESIGN GOLD FARMING WOULD NOT WORK.But since dev teams are the inept bunch they are, they fail to realise that an open end to the amount of currency allowed to exist is the primary reason gold farming has the effect of speeding up the failure their incredibly bad,incredibly inept design would suffer under on its own anyway.
    Gold farming and selling doesnt cause the economy to fall apart ,it merely speeds the result.
    Horrible design by inept DEV teams who cant be bothered to finish the PRODUCT  they are selling,let alone strive to see it meets  an acceptable quality level is the top villain here.
    Gold farming is just an evil minion.

    For starters someone intelligent would never comment the way english is written by a person on a website open to thousends of people all over the world, to bad my english isn't my native langauge, that you try to explain to me what you think i read wrong is okay and i have no problem with a healthy discussion, but to crittizie how some mightr write is more a act of a 9 year old.

    So sorry if i have misunderstood/misread you the first time, but next time leave it at just that and learn to respect others in this case someone's bad english

  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    OR perhaps Reklaw , you could maybe learn NOT to act like an  8yr old ?

    PERHAPS you could learn NOT to react in such a badly behaved manner as to use phrases like  "Wonder what world you are living ...really ??" and "what rock are you living under ", ESPECIALLY when your point doesnt even exist becuase you FAILED to comprehend what was actaully said and CHOSE INSTEAD to rant about something that was NEVER said ?

    Perhaps you could stop acting like a defensive little child when shown you are wrong ?

    Of course i dont believe your capable of making these self improvements in your behavior.Which is of course why i lowered my already incredibly low opinion of your maturity.

    But heck, i could be wrong.

    For instance ,you could be six and mature for your age.

    Or you could actually show some maturity by not continuing to act like an 8 yr old in your next post.

    Perhaps.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by tkobo


    OR perhaps Reklaw , you could maybe learn NOT to act like an  8yr old ?
    PERHAPS you could learn NOT to react in such a badly behaved manner as to use phrases like  "Wonder what world you are living ...really ??" and "what rock are you living under ", ESPECIALLY when your point doesnt even exist becuase you FAILED to comprehend what was actaully said and CHOSE INSTEAD to rant about something that was NEVER said ?
    Perhaps you could stop acting like a defensive little child when shown you are wrong ?
    Of course i dont believe your capable of making these self improvements in your behavior.Which is of course why i lowered my already incredibly low opinion of your maturity.
    But heck, i could be wrong.
    For instance ,you could be six and mature for your age.
    Or you could actually show some maturity by not continuing to act like an 8 yr old in your next post.
    Perhaps.




    haha you are really funny as i never have seen a mature person act this way even when someone already has apologized

    I say it again " I'm sorry if i misread/misunderstood your text,  but you probebly come back again with some childish remarks as you seem not to take intrest when someone say's that to you, maybe you should learn to respect people and judge yourself before judging others.( i'm positive that have much more life exp. then you have and that i respect people opinions but open up for discussions or believes that can be defended, and in some cases i might be wrong in what i have said and i can admit that, think you probebly to stubern to ever admit you might be wrong, cause you are very wrong in this case.

  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    Hahhahahahahah too funny.

     

    Like i said "Perhaps you could", but than again as i said  ,you probably wouldnt.

    Its kinda like watching a child throw a tantum, sad and funny at the same time.

    Please continue to "entertain" me little one.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by tkobo


    Hahhahahahahah too funny.
     
    Like i said "Perhaps you could", but than again as i said  ,you probably wouldnt.
    Its kinda like watching a child throw a tantum, sad and funny at the same time.
    Please continue to "entertain" me little one.

     

    oops i take everything back, i just took a look at all your post and man you got some major issues going on, i havn't seen one single possitive reactions in any of your post  take care and hope you find a sollution for the problems your are facing

  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    Hhahahaha, OH NOES , he switched to the dreaded  "i know you are, but what am i"  tactic !

    How will i ever content with such a well thought out mature reply ?

    Hhahahhahahahahhaha, just far to entertaining.

    i wait in awe for his next cunning, witty, mature reply .Really.

    Perhaps he'll go back to using emotes ? Or perhaps he'll go back to failing to read an comphrehend whats been said again, and post another irrelevant rant like his first post to me.

    Hhahahhahahahhahahahahahha

    Or perhaps his mommy has told him its bed time and he will have to stop replying.That would be sooooo sad, as i would miss him sooo much.

    Hhahahahhahaha

  • tkobotkobo Member Posts: 465

    Bummer, i didnt manage to quess  the theme of his next post.

    It seems he chose to delete his reply and post more rambling nonsense,in its place.

    Seems that post (the one he deleted) wasnt his last post on this topic after all, go figure.

    I quess the good news is his mommy hasnt sent him to bed yet.

    So he will continue to entertain.

     

  • NadrilNadril Member Posts: 1,276
    Originally posted by Hejiet


    Sadly I can only refer to WoW has my gaming experience with the problem.
    There was a big clean made a couple of months ago, and I don't think it changed anything really, beside I know the prices went up quite  a bit.
    Also, it amazes me when I see shouts and messages on General Chat from gold sellers. I mean, how can they even allow people to shout such a thing in public? I do believe that those account should be ban on the spot that someone get a good screenshot and report it. No questions asked.
    I was tempted once to buy gold as well, considering I was going to school and had a full time job, didn't have much time to grind gold, and buy it was cheaper than the time comsumption from grinding, although I didn't because I knew that somehow I would be exploited this way. I really think that all those that consider purchasing any kind of in-game currencies should consider it twice, and think about where it comes from, and what that kind of transaction doesn't to the game they love.
    Well generaly once someone shouts out about selling gold they get banned before I have a chance to hit "ignore".
  • ThonyThony Member Posts: 215
    Originally posted by tkobo


    Bummer, i didnt manage to quess  the theme of his next post.
    It seems he chose to delete his reply and post more rambling nonsense,in its place.
    Seems that post (the one he deleted) wasnt his last post on this topic after all, go figure.
    I quess the good news is his mommy hasnt sent him to bed yet.
    So he will continue to entertain.
     



    Lol i really thought i had seen it all   this guy Tkobo is out of control wasn't the topic about Gold Farming and not about  to take it out on that guy reklaw, you are right he shouldn't have said "what world you comming from" but i have seen that he apologized atleast for the part what he felt he misread. Also english isn't my first langauge as it may be yours, its not about "how" something is written but about "what" is written also a big consideration is "where" it is written.I understand your criticism it just does not fit on a open community site like this one, would this website be a resource for English-language then you would be correct. Don't asume just because someone else isn't as good in expressing himself in english he is a child. Being 30 does count as being a adult right? keep your dignity while being humble

    To get back at the topic i think it good that Korea is taking masures but i also believe that by taking them it doesn't really solve much, every where you go and every where you look you will always see people that will try to take advantage out of situations clearly not ment for it, Remember that as a child your mother told you not to take the cookies but you did, and did they not taste much better when you took them without your mother noticing  it felt good though you knew it was wrong. Same with cheats, goldspammers they do it just because they can, and it probebly makes them feel good about it. It is not the lack in game design, its  gamers in general from who some have lost there respect towards themselfs, but lucky enough thats just a small portion of the gaming community and the larger portion of the community still enjoy's the games the way they where ment (don't get me wrong i do not like bugs in games but i just accept the fact they are there considering the porpotion of a game,what i don't like i leave alone)

    I hope more games like Entropia, Second Life will be made in the near future so that maybe those willing to pay real life currency ingame can do so without the hassle of end user license agreements that prohibbits them into using rl money for ingame items and let them be free to do with their money whatever they like in those type of games and maybe move out of games not ment for real life currency (other then sub-fee)

  • tyhawktyhawk Member Posts: 22
    I've seen gold farmers in WoW back when I played it, and I've seen higher level coworkers disturb them and their macro's by tagging mobs before the Chinese Macrochar opened fire. I play EvE Online, and the fun part about EvE game mechanics is that the players themselves can annoy the farmers and make their job impossible. In high security space you can knock a ship running a macro far enough from his jet can for the macro to fail, and if you have your industrial ship nearby, steal the ore from under their noses. Low- and no-security space is even more fun, because you can shoot whatever farmer you find without the NPC police (named CONCORD) shooting you in retalliation. Any serious gold farmer will be rigged for maximum yield, not defence, even if they are in a group.



    I'm starting too see it as being part of the MMO gaming experience; gold farmers and how to bug them to the max within game mechanics and regulations. Still, I could do without them. But as long as they are here, might as well have a little fun with them.

    For an example on how this fun works in EvE, read this blog: billionairebuccanneer.blogspot.com/2006/08/day-5-azn-extravaganza.html



    Any mail or message I get telling me where to get my ISK, gold or whatever dirt cheap and easy goes into a petition. I get plenty of spam in real life. I don't want it bothering me in my gaming experience as well.
  • tsquare82tsquare82 Member Posts: 1

    I can understand when the die-hard gamers get upset by things like the economy changing.  

    Personally, however, I endorse and support some aspects of gold-farming in games like WoW.  WoW's instance system allows them to form their own groups and farm instances without having any negative effects on other players.  The only negative effect is that gold comes flooding into the system, but realistically, this gold doesn't come from 'nowhere'. It comes from players (farmers) putting in the hours.   Other players could have done this just as easily.  (Some goldfarming tactics such as account theft, spamming for sales, and ninjaing loot in pick-up groups are, of course, despicable, but the latter of course is not exactly the sole province of gold farmers.)

    People who complain about the gold-farming and economy being ruined in WoW probably don't have jobs, hobbies, and families that limit their time and make it more precious.   At end-game, WoW gets a little competitive.  You need to put together 40 people who have decent gear and can afford the potions.  Unless you network very well, you won't get into an established guild if you can only raid twice a week, so a lot of people spend their VERY precious free-time with guilds that may not have Naxx on farm status yet - which means spending lots of gold or time on potions and repair bills.  

    Simple maths: farming for pots/repair will usually take a couple of hours per instance.  Whether it's farming gold to buy the mats/pots off the AH, or just farming the mats and making them yourselves, hours will be spent.  That's not a huge time investment for all the college-bound or the powergamers, but for those of us who budget our time very carefully, it's something we can't really afford to do.  But if we WORK for those couple hours, we can afford to buy a hundred times the pots/repair bills in gold from goldfarmers.  And you can always get more money, but you can't get more time.  EVERYONE has 24 hours in a day, regardless of who they are.  We HAVE to if we want to progress into seeing end-game instances, instead of just playing MC over and over again.  (PVPing doesn't really count, as all the tier-3 guys own the BGs).   Gold-farming is often the sensible choice for someone who wants to play the video game with friends on raid nights, but can barely afford the time-sink that raiding is, in itself. 

    Casual gamers have nowhere to go after a certain point, and that creates the demand. 

    If you REALLY wanted to cut a big dent into goldfarmer's business,  reduce the demand.  Lateral thinking.  (Examples follow.)

    (Note to games other than WoW who have goldfarming problems:  WoW is more casual-gamer friendly than a lot of MMOs by putting instance timers to restrict the amount of uber gear that can be farmed, meaning a casual gamer who god-willing manages to get into the instance every week stands almost as much chance as a powergamer who plays 24/7.  Of course, house rules like spreading DKP across multiple dungeons doesn't help, or the frequent-raiding-requirement of the better guilds.  But it's a start.  Also, paid character transfers across realms are a great idea but it's only a shame they don't allow transfers to PVP realms.   A lot of players want to join their friends on a different server, but levelling up to 60 to meet them is too time-consuming - not to mention boring if you've done it all before - and buying gold speeds up the process of levelling immeasurably.   Transfers are a good fix, but the PVP/Normal/RP restrictions are a hindrance, not a help.  Also, gold is only so useful in WoW - after a certain point, no items worth having can be simply purchased with gold, and that's a good way to reduce the demand for gold.)

  • octarinoctarin Member UncommonPosts: 13

    First off, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this post, despite the slight flame aspect of it at some point. I have been gravitating around MMORPG.com for a fair old while now, but never has a post created the urge in me to reply to it. This one did, with people's valuable arguments, it's been an eye-opener.

    Secondly, I can personally see both sides of the coin, why people would and why people would not wish to buy ingame gold for real cash. I've heard both ends of the argument many times, and although I personally would never do it as I think it ruins my own personal sense of achievement and fun, I can see why others would.

    There are mainly three types of games out there, and correct my if I'm wrong, I very well could be. One is the games that you subscribe to play and you have full access to the game. The second is the type of game where you can play it for free but access to vital items and equipment has to be made through an ingame real-cash market system. And the last one is games that basically you pay for every single bit you play. Fair game all around, or it would be if it wasn't for one minor point that has been hinted at before, and I suspect by a fellow countryman. That point is that most of the games out there have not been thought through towards the exponentially growing amount of people vs limited amount of available time vs the limited amount of play-space vs the growing amount of levels per character per account. I am inclined to agree that game devs do not plan so far ahead, and therein lies the root of the problem. Gold farmers, as has been hinted at, in this respect are not the source of the problem, they are the symptom.

    What that basically means is trying to figure out a way to cure the problem not the symptom. Legislation as has been hinted in this article will not only do nothing whatsoever towards curing the problem, but it will make the symptom and its ramifications even worse. It has been historically proven that when governments try to ban something it becomes high commodity and a totally uncontrollable and potentially dangerous black market for that commodity sprouts. This will not be an exception, and I personally fear for governments that try to presume they can impose measures of restriction upon international cyberspace and all of its advocates, good or bad.

    However, for gaming companies that WANT -and i am capitalising that, because honestly most don't really care, or they haven't seen the big picture just yet to start caring- to restrict gold farmers there are viable ingame ways to do it without resorting to executionist schemes that may potentially ruin the ingame balance. One of the solutions that have been hinting so far in the thread is to increase the "watcher" activity. Costs money, as you'll need to hire more people, more machines for them to work on so on and so forth. But it is a solution. Another is the continuous and indiscriminate banning of accounts/characters/credit cards/players/ISPs younameit that are even suspected of indulging in such bevaviour. Also costs money from the company's point of view. And there are more of those solutions, but as I said, I believe them to be executionist style.

    Several months ago I tried out a game called RAPPELZ, Korean type, one of the better made ones from all those I've tried out. In Rappelz there was a simple game mechanism that gave me a little bit of trouble to identify at first, but when I did I realised it could very well be the viable beginning of INGAME bot restriction -I presume here that most gold-farmers are bot users for the sake of simplicity-. That was the AUTOTRAP. What the autotraps do is this: they are in the shape of rocks sprewn around the landscape and are attackable. When someone attacks an autotrap for the first time he gets a warning. When that happens more than once in a specific period of time, that character is automatically transported to the Abyss. The Abyss is a basically almost void place that you sit in and wait for the GMs to fish you out of. Simple, effective, does not bother actual players' gaming, while at the same time makes almost certain that bots do not stay up the surface for long.

    Ingame systems like this one, I believe, are the solution to the gold-farming in existing MMOs. A precise developmental planning that includes, stratifies and borderlines gold farming is the solution to the problem in MMOs to come. Out-of-bounds legislation for taxing the disease does nothing to stop it. But then again, isn't that typical of governments, to try and get a slice out of every pie, notwithstanding what the pie is and where it's coming from...

  • StaircaseStaircase Member Posts: 29
    Originally posted by octarin


    First off, I'd like to thank everyone who contributed to this post, despite the slight flame aspect of it at some point. I have been gravitating around MMORPG.com for a fair old while now, but never has a post created the urge in me to reply to it. This one did, with people's valuable arguments, it's been an eye-opener.
    Secondly, I can personally see both sides of the coin, why people would and why people would not wish to buy ingame gold for real cash. I've heard both ends of the argument many times, and although I personally would never do it as I think it ruins my own personal sense of achievement and fun, I can see why others would.
    There are mainly three types of games out there, and correct my if I'm wrong, I very well could be. One is the games that you subscribe to play and you have full access to the game. The second is the type of game where you can play it for free but access to vital items and equipment has to be made through an ingame real-cash market system. And the last one is games that basically you pay for every single bit you play. Fair game all around, or it would be if it wasn't for one minor point that has been hinted at before, and I suspect by a fellow countryman. That point is that most of the games out there have not been thought through towards the exponentially growing amount of people vs limited amount of available time vs the limited amount of play-space vs the growing amount of levels per character per account. I am inclined to agree that game devs do not plan so far ahead, and therein lies the root of the problem. Gold farmers, as has been hinted at, in this respect are not the source of the problem, they are the symptom.
    What that basically means is trying to figure out a way to cure the problem not the symptom. Legislation as has been hinted in this article will not only do nothing whatsoever towards curing the problem, but it will make the symptom and its ramifications even worse. It has been historically proven that when governments try to ban something it becomes high commodity and a totally uncontrollable and potentially dangerous black market for that commodity sprouts. This will not be an exception, and I personally fear for governments that try to presume they can impose measures of restriction upon international cyberspace and all of its advocates, good or bad.
    However, for gaming companies that WANT -and i am capitalising that, because honestly most don't really care, or they haven't seen the big picture just yet to start caring- to restrict gold farmers there are viable ingame ways to do it without resorting to executionist schemes that may potentially ruin the ingame balance. One of the solutions that have been hinting so far in the thread is to increase the "watcher" activity. Costs money, as you'll need to hire more people, more machines for them to work on so on and so forth. But it is a solution. Another is the continuous and indiscriminate banning of accounts/characters/credit cards/players/ISPs younameit that are even suspected of indulging in such bevaviour. Also costs money from the company's point of view. And there are more of those solutions, but as I said, I believe them to be executionist style.
    Several months ago I tried out a game called RAPPELZ, Korean type, one of the better made ones from all those I've tried out. In Rappelz there was a simple game mechanism that gave me a little bit of trouble to identify at first, but when I did I realised it could very well be the viable beginning of INGAME bot restriction -I presume here that most gold-farmers are bot users for the sake of simplicity-. That was the AUTOTRAP. What the autotraps do is this: they are in the shape of rocks sprewn around the landscape and are attackable. When someone attacks an autotrap for the first time he gets a warning. When that happens more than once in a specific period of time, that character is automatically transported to the Abyss. The Abyss is a basically almost void place that you sit in and wait for the GMs to fish you out of. Simple, effective, does not bother actual players' gaming, while at the same time makes almost certain that bots do not stay up the surface for long.
    Ingame systems like this one, I believe, are the solution to the gold-farming in existing MMOs. A precise developmental planning that includes, stratifies and borderlines gold farming is the solution to the problem in MMOs to come. Out-of-bounds legislation for taxing the disease does nothing to stop it. But then again, isn't that typical of governments, to try and get a slice out of every pie, notwithstanding what the pie is and where it's coming from...


    After reading every post in this section, i feel that this is the one post that has actually achnowledged the real problem and looked outside the box instead of the obvious things...i take my hat off to you:)



    I personally have never encountered the problem of farming; but that's probably because i tend to play games not for a long period of time, and when i do i usually start right at the start...I.E Beta Testing...because it's fun and interesting to see what new games are coming out and to see what can be done to improve them.



    It's almost imossible to see that people will get so into a game that real money will start to provide a problem...if a company thinks it will they are almost being slightly big-headed...and if they bring implications into the game which cause concequences to the farmers this cannot be used in a relitivly small game because it would cause the game to have no economy.



    So what a developer needs to do or understand is once the hype is up there and running and they know for a fact that their game will be popular to insert a different economy.



    obviously this would actually be impossible because the outcry would be to such an extent that it would be a mini-riot, heh.



    Anyway, my 3 pence..feel free to scrutinise:)



    Staircase
  • ngyvinngyvin Member Posts: 4
    Cool article.



    I think it will be great when/if Gaming Companies and governments get serious about cracking down on farmers and secondary markets in general. It really does ruin competition and economy! I'm a long time player and I know this for a fact, no amount of debating can change this fact.



    Yes, the 2nd market can and does help people with no time to play MMORPGs, but it is totally against the spirit of the game and defeats the economy and healthy competition... look at L2, look at UO.



    Look at WoW, even with it's binding rules... there is still a market that destroys some aspects of the game.



    I totally understand how the 2nd Market helps people with little time.. but those people need to realize that this is not the answer and maybe they shouldnt be playing MMORPGs in the first place. -- My advice to them? Buy an XBOX! It's jump in/jump out action and doesnt destroy virtual worlds.



    If and when the gaming companies get control of these secondary markets, I think then they should cut service to people from countries that don't support their right to control their economy/game. That would cripple the secondary market big time. And anyone playing from a country with laws against farming get's tracked and fined/jailed/whatever.
  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by ngyvin

    Cool article.



    I think it will be great when/if Gaming Companies and governments get serious about cracking down on farmers and secondary markets in general. It really does ruin competition and economy! I'm a long time player and I know this for a fact, no amount of debating can change this fact.



    Yes, the 2nd market can and does help people with no time to play MMORPGs, but it is totally against the spirit of the game and defeats the economy and healthy competition... look at L2, look at UO.



    Look at WoW, even with it's binding rules... there is still a market that destroys some aspects of the game.



    I totally understand how the 2nd Market helps people with little time.. but those people need to realize that this is not the answer and maybe they shouldnt be playing MMORPGs in the first place. -- My advice to them? Buy an XBOX! It's jump in/jump out action and doesnt destroy virtual worlds.



    If and when the gaming companies get control of these secondary markets, I think then they should cut service to people from countries that don't support their right to control their economy/game. That would cripple the secondary market big time. And anyone playing from a country with laws against farming get's tracked and fined/jailed/whatever.

    but those people need to realize ........... is a very good sentence, one i often think about why some people even play mmorpg and indeed there is a large secondary market or even a first market right from the start  on Xbox live or ps3 games if you can't put up the time but want to spend real money then those are the answers and maybe mmorpg will become the game again it once was. Xbox and ps3 are also the place of many so called "hardcore" gamers that think they are hardcore in mmorpg  if they also would leave maybe the "rpg" in "mmo" might return again aswell.
  • KurirKurir Member UncommonPosts: 244
    Until you eliminate player to player trading and require the players to use an auction house to buy or sell items and of course price fixing of those items this will be an issue. Until that happens get used to it because its here to stay, this is just another example of government trying to find a means of getting tax dollars to squander on their own pay raises and persoanl benefits.
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