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Casual Play Column: Raiding Needs to Die
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So ....ummm....why play any mmo then?
i think there needs to be a redefinition of terms people use in general.
Obviously.
it shouldn't be casual v hardcore. the terms normally are applied to those who participate in raids and those that don't.
raider - someone who can spend 6-20 hours at a session playing a game. those who wil prioritize a game above family, friends, and work.
non-raider - someone who willfully chooses to handle a gaming addiction with intelligence -- who prioritizes family, friends and work ABOVE said game. this is someone who will spend as much, if not more, time playing than any raider, only for shorter amounts of time (say half an hour to 4 hours).
casual - someone who plays a game for under 10 hours a week. non-raiders mostly. perhaps a teeny tiny portion of raiders who gather only to work on a single raid?
hardcore - someone who plays a game for 30+ hours a week. includes raiders and non-raiders
insert name here - someone who plays between 10 and 30 hours a week. includes a small number of raiders (notably professionals irl, i.e. lawyer, doctor, etc) and non-raiders
There's the group the author belongs to. The me me me crowd. That wants it all with no effort.
Then there's the player that spends a lot of time on the game, and not necessarily is he a raider, a grouper, a soloer, or anything else. He simply spends a lot of time on the game.
Then there's the raiders. Raiders seek to tackle the hardest content the game generally has to offer. They by no means are stuck in a definition of having to spend countless hours playing.
And then there's another group, of the true casual players. That dabble a little here and there in the game, they can sometimes be raiders, they can also be soloers, groupers, ect but generally don't spend much time on the game in general or long term.
Edit: There's also the "I hate raiding, because I got my feelings hurt by a raider once, or I read something about how all raiders are evil creatures bent on the destruction of all things non-raiding!"
this latest trend is just redefining 'fanboi'. but now, instead of it meaning a mindless lemming who won't desert his/her god and can't see any wrong done by his/her god... now it's supposed to mean -- imma hardcore playa! i won't neva leave this game! this game needs to give me the stuff i need!
you've said something about ignorance isn't a reason or excuse or something... smoking huge bob marley joints isn't an excuse either.
First flaw you made here: To assume that I'm speaking in generalizations about myself. I said clearly 'they', referring to the market segment that Blizzard probably considers a more loyal customer.
Second flaw you made: To take numbers from a presentation without understanding how they were statistically derived. Was that a percentage or a flat number (in millions)? Was it a from a US-only population or worldwide? My bet is, you don't know.
I threw up a random number (15%), with no statistical basis - it's just a gut feeling based on my own experience in WoW. I have over 100 days played on my main (in full Tier 2)...and I have 2 other level 60s.
Someone else made the point about the current level 60 epics being instantly obsolete with the release of TBC. That's true. But who do you think will be the first, as a market segment' to conquer the new content and obtain the end-game Tier 3 and 4 gear? Won't be casuals, I'm guessing...but that's fine. People choose to spend their time, in the manner they see fit, however they like. If chatting and socializing with some friends...or, *gasp* even roleplaying is your gig, that's great! But don't whine about your pathetic green gear that your're sporting in battlegrounds and wonder why you get your ass kicked by the other team...and then cry that the raiders are ruining your game.
It's obvious to me that you don't display any proper raiding experience outside of Blizzards WoW. Much less an MMO experience that extends further back then WoW in general.
This discussion isn't about WoW, it's about Raiding in general, and it's about the other play styles.
I suggest you go back and reread my post, as it's ever so obvious you failed to comprehend most of it with your mad ranting.
As I've said so in the previous post you quoted, it's all about management. And there's plenty of examples that people with jobs, families, and what have you are perfectly capable of managing to fit in a couple hours a night for some raiding, even in bleeding edge guilds across various games. Yours, and the authors illogical ideas that it has to take several hours/days to accomplish anything as a raid, is an aged old excuse going as far as as EQ1 raiding.
Which boils down to the (in)competence of your raid or guild leaders and the overall mentality of the guilds members.
It's about priorities in the sense that you allow plenty of time for family/GF/BF/Work/what have you, but also by having time for some R&R with computer games or other hobbies. With better time management you could suddenly free up a couple hours a night of raiding. You don't need much more then ~3 hours set aside. And that's not really that much at all.
Edit: spelling
let's see... in wow, you CAN put a raid on hold and then go do other things.
can you do that in eq, with the open world boss that if your team leaves, someone else can come kill it?
stop calling me stupid and acting like i'm not talking sense.
in your post about numbers.
GO READ WHAT KAPLAN SAID/DID/PRESENTED at e3.
the slide(s) to which i refer are where he gives the TOTAL number of toons raiding.
but please, feel free to act like your made up numbers and fancies about games have meaning. please do. that's why you were given a sign.
what you fail to realize, in your flawed omnipotence, is what many many people realized YEARS ago.... your life should not revolve around a game.
take alcoholism. do you schedule times you're going to drink? do you plan/plot your other activities around drinking periods? do you find yourself thinking about clubs/drinking while you're at work/with your family/engaged in non-drinking activities?
substitute whatever game's name in place of alcohol...
the very fact that scheduling X amount of hours to raid a boss on ZQW days is absurd. it's a game. i should be able to hop on at any time day/night and enjoy whatever i want to... notice i said ENJOY, as in, have F U N. because it's a G A M E.
but, that's me, not like i have a degree, not like my friends are also professionals, not like i see lots of people with addictions to alcohol, drugs, or even gaming and how it adversely affects their work and social lives.
just throwing things out there, feel free to fetish on whatever statements you so desire.
raiding is jacked. period. ever heard of the term "eq widow"?
but like i said, make up your own numbers, statistics, silliness and be on a soap box all year for all i care.
since i HAVE to have the last word, according to my adoring fan, this'll be my last word.
1 go look up this year's e3 and read up/watch kaplan's presentation. your apology for your rudeness and lack of bothering to pay any attention/gather facts is grudgingly accepted.
2 eq widow... wow raid silliness... i'm sorry, how many dozens of mmos must i play before i'm allowed to have an opinion on the absurdity, nay, the utter STUPIDITY, of raiding? how many months must i engage in something i find to be NOT fun in the slightest, before i am allowed to say that it is an incredibly garbage part of a genre?
3 use logic and facts. stop making up facts and creating your own reality. it really doesn't make you look superior or intelligent. if raiding is such a wonderful thing (now try to follow the TRAIN OF THOUGHT here, it won't end with just one sentence, it's a series, hence 'train of thought")...
if raiding is such a wonderful thing
and wow has MILLIONS more subs than any other western game
then WHY is wow moving completely away from raids (as seen in the BC, where the 40man shows are now gone).
might not have the most subs in the world, if you include eastern games; but, it does have millions of subs, which IS more than other western games. so, the largest western game, which has wholeheartedly embraced raiding (and actually made raiding EASIER, with instances and the ability to re-enter the same instance numerous times over a week, making a 12+ hour raid where you can break it down to 2-4 hours/night), why in a game with such a large sub base, which added mostly nothing but raids since it's inception... why is it changing so dramatically now?
oh yeah, cuz blizzard now realizing that raidings SUCKS.
luvya, missya, seeya... don't forget your sign, wonder-man..
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It is more 5% than 15%. 15% is the amount of peoples who try to raid with more or less interest. 5% is the peoples who actually stick to raiding. To use a 15% number, you have to count peoples like me as raiders, and you really shouldn't. So, 5% of the player base is not even able to compensate regular fluctuations in the market; it is neglictable in the bigger scope. Yet, you shaft 95% of the players, some of which really HATE raiding a LOT and realize you shaft them....that is far worser than whatever meager bonuses the 5% who actually "enjoy" raiding bring to you. Also note that MOST raiders don't plan on raiding in their next MMOs, they doesn't have the time to commit to raiding or their tastes change, weither they support or not raiding is irrelevant, since they won't raid again, they won't stick to a MMO because of raiding...Raiding has a very poor retention value in the long run, as raiders, usually leave raiding.
NOW, as we speak, how much % of the servers are actually raiding? Less than 5%, way less than 5%! ACTUALLY, ATM, what are the peoples in WoW doing, it is either soloing or grouping, not raiding, raiding is never the main activity, it is having issues to break the 5% cap, it will never get anywhere close to 50% until the game has a foot in its graveyard...
Why do you think SoE is the most hated company? SWG is part of the explanation, but if I recall well, they where vastly hated prior SWG...and I don't think SWG haters are the core of SoE haters. Again, check Blizzard standing toward the public. 3 years ago, there where very few haters; some peoples might dislike or not enjoy Blizzard games, but they actually don't hate them. Now, Blizzard is rivalring SoE in hating terms and they will outmatch SoE as the top-hated company in a few years...guess what make players hate Blizzard...tic tac...tic tac...yes, it is raiding that create that hatred, this ruins a reputation, a franchise and your future...all this for a meager instant gratification that wasn't worth it...LOL.
I think you're vastly underestimating numbers and generalizing how other people 'feel' about video game companies. I don't care for a lot of games, but i wouldn't say I 'hate' the developers for making it. Some players may consider themselves a fan of a particular lore system (like D&D or Warhammer) and find that their experience of a new game title by that well-known game developer is...well, disappointing.
I also wonder why people decide to play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER GAME when they don't like to raid with other people. Isn't that kind of the point of being MASSIVE? If you really only like to solo, or pvp...there's better game genres for that activity. Do some research before you buy a game, is my advice.
Meanwhile, a lot of so-called hardcores and raiders really WANT TO RAID, which implies a massive online environment. Some really hardcore raid guilds, that move from old-gen games like EQ or DAOC or Shadowbane have really found that the new mainstream version of raiding is pretty mediocre in terms of challenge. EQ1 raids were waaaaay more challenging and demanding on the players than what we see in WoW, for instance. Whether thats a good thing or not, I can't say. But I have heard from other players that are now playing WoW 'end game' that feel they're cheated on the aspect of content because it's really just dumbed down for more casuals.
Your real life addiction comparisons to drugs, and what not really has no place in this discussion either. If anything it makes you appear to be grasping for straws bud.
Blaming games for school shootings, for the marriage breakup, or breakup with your BF/GF/Significant other, for countless hours spent on the game seemingly addicted, is laughable. The root of the problem is with the persons in question, and not the media they are interacting with. Your analogies towards drugs is as absurd as blaming GTA for the various cops shot to death by teens with deeply rooted mental issues.
playing eq2 and two worlds
I think you're vastly underestimating numbers and generalizing how other people 'feel' about video game companies. I don't care for a lot of games, but i wouldn't say I 'hate' the developers for making it. Some players may consider themselves a fan of a particular lore system (like D&D or Warhammer) and find that their experience of a new game title by that well-known game developer is...well, disappointing.
Nah, uber-raiders tend to underestimate other segment of the game. See, raiders don't mix with the rest of the server. They have NO IDEA how many peoples are there. A raider who know of 500 players on his server is definitedly outstanding by raiding standards. As they usually stick to small-knit group and rarely see more than a hundred players or so. Now, do you realize that MOST players don't get to max level? Even in WoW! Despite how easy WoW is, MOST players never get to 60. Raiders could be 15% of the peoples who get 60, that is possible. But 15% of a minority, talk of a minority within a minority!
I also wonder why people decide to play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER GAME when they don't like to raid with other people. Isn't that kind of the point of being MASSIVE? If you really only like to solo, or pvp...there's better game genres for that activity. Do some research before you buy a game, is my advice.
Grouping. And as far as researchs goes, none other game is better suited for grouping purposes. Most peoples who play a MMO play it for the GROUPING aspect, not the raiding. Massive is a detail, what matter is the massive amounts of peoples who share the same game, the same world, the same grouping opportunity. I don't care for the Bazaar, Ironforge or MC.
Meanwhile, a lot of so-called hardcores and raiders really WANT TO RAID, which implies a massive online environment. Some really hardcore raid guilds, that move from old-gen games like EQ or DAOC or Shadowbane have really found that the new mainstream version of raiding is pretty mediocre in terms of challenge. EQ1 raids were waaaaay more challenging and demanding on the players than what we see in WoW, for instance. Whether thats a good thing or not, I can't say. But I have heard from other players that are now playing WoW 'end game' that feel they're cheated on the aspect of content because it's really just dumbed down for more casuals.
Most hardcores don't raid. Raiders are mostly consisting of socialisers. Socialisers who get exclusive rewards where they are used to get nothing, since they are not usually worthy of these rewards. The "success" of raiding is because it reward a completely different part of the player based. These socialisers have to be partly achievers, so you are catering to peoples who are about 70% socialisers and 30% achievers. These who are more socialisers than that don't mind much and would rather put a smile on my face than argue. Those who are more achievers don't like the burden of raiding which limit achievements on stuff that are very off and not linked to them.
Again, raiding appeal to a neglicting part of the community while a significantly bigger part was just curious with it, neither really like nor disliking it. Most peoples you qualify as "raiders" in fact don't care and are just experiencing it. Peoples who like raiding as is; are a fraction of the player-base.
Raiding as is, appeal to Uber-raiders soleley, real raiders doesn't need such a system. And raiders are a minority, uber-raiders are a minority among a minority. Peoples disliking raids are a significantly bigger % of the market.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I don't want raiding to die or survive, as long as it doesn't infrige with grouping. If it must die to not infrige on grouping, so be it. I am well past giving trust to unworthy designers; I need warranty that raiding will not infrige on grouping.
Grouping is the point of the MMORPGs, not raiding. Grouping is massive, beyond anything a raider understands.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Right on the mark.
Uber raiding is the problematic, and THIS appeal to a minority within a minority. While raiding itself, not granting uber-reward, isn't problematic.
Raiding is a minority. Uber-raiding is a minority among a minority. Yet, designs are enforcing uber-raiding, and this is a very harsh mistake.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sometimes I come across someone who says or does something where I realize that that they just don't get it (at least for the moment). Right here is just such a situition. The Guild Wars devs get it. In Guild Wars it's solo or group only. You don't have to worry about raiding because there's no raiding. I like it like that and so does many others. If you want to remain stuck with the raid paradigm or vision and not progress to a broader paradigm or vision go right ahead. I'm going with games that provide the option not to raid. That means a game with raiding but has non raid servers or no raiding in the game at all. I don't hate raiding or those who do raid I just want the option of being able to experience the whole game without raiding being required and those who offer that option will get my money.
In fact if someone made a raid only server or handled raiding like how Guild Wars handles PvP I could go for that. i prefer having choices, the more the better. How odd it is that I support the decison of those who want to raid but raiders usually don't support those who don't want to raid.
Spiritglow
It always seems to be the same arguement, with the same "facts" quoted by each side. Jeez. We all need to learn how to "agree to disagree". Or something like that.
Personally, I'm sure the raiders greatly enjoy their form of entertainment, and that's their choice. Do I agree that it's fun? Hell no. But let them have their raids. Should they get powerful items from it? The way MMO's are designed, yes. MMOs are all designed so that "time invested = power". The more you play, the more you are rewarded. This is something raiders like. They are the Achiever type.
Now it seems the casuals are upset because of the rewards the raiders get from all their time spent. I won't call it hard work, cause I know a girl who raids *non-stop* in WoW, and half the time she falls asleep at the keyboard, and people /still survive/. But, the casuals are complaining that the raiders get all the "phat lewtz".
I think this is where the raiders and the casuals get a little confused. The casuals aren't bitching that the raiders get the best gear. It's that the *only way* to get this gear is through raiding. There's no epic, super long quests that drop epic items. And until recently in WoW, it was even harder to get epic gear through PvP. (I'm using WoW as the example, as it's what the majority of posters here have been using) So, understandably, the casuals complain because they are forced down a single path in order to obtain epic items. The casuals have come to enjoy a different playstyle from the game than the raiders. But once they hit the end-game, their options are simply down to one. Raiding.
But the raiders complain because the casuals "want everything for nothing". They don't see how their playstyle might not be fun for other players. Some people like RTS games, others don't. Same thing with FPS games. Why should all MMO players have to raid? Why is it the "accepted form" of end-game?
The new change to the PvP rewards in WoW seems like a good thing, IMO. It has allowed the casual players a chance to get an epic item, while being able to do something they might actually enjoy. Hell, I know a bunch of people that have gone from raiding to PvP for their rewards after the change. The never liked raiding, they only wanted the chance to get better gear. But they always enjoyed the PvP aspects of WoW. Now they can do both at the /same time/. Imagine that.
I think both sides need to understand where each other is coming from.
Should the raiders be rewarded for their hours of playing? Yes.
Should the casuals have a different way of achieving the same (or similar) gear? Yes. Though it should take as long in game time as raiders spend, but can be spread out over smaller chunks.
Okay, that's my point. Or not.
I'm sure people will just rant how I'm wrong and say nothing constructive (or understandable) anyways.
The Rev.
__________________________________
Playing - Waiting on GW2
Formerly played - Aion, CO, CoX, EVE, GW1, LotRO, RIFT, Ryzom, SWG, SWTOR, WAR, WoW
Trialed - AA, DDO, EQ2, L2, MxO, RYL, TERA, VSoH
Beta'd - HGL, GW2, PotBS, SWTOR, TCoS, TR
Anticipating - GW2, PS2
"Now what people need to understand is that, it doesn't take several "days" on end as the author so clearly put it, to be a raider"
Okay, a new guild that does Molten Core can spend 5+ hour contigious blocks trying to takedown just the first major boss and get all 40 people to show up. For folks that have children, wives, etc 5+ hours is simply too much. Leveling from 1-60 I never had to stay on past an hour to get stuff accomplished. When you hit 60+, all of s udden, it takes hours to get something accomplished. It makes no sense to try to rephrase it otherwise.
Next, you try to claim that casual gamers dont want loot. WHAT!??? I know even women that screamed on ventrillo/teamspeak as soon as someone stole their loot. And these were casual gamers for sure- they were content with the idea of never raiding molten core and never hitting level 60.
so, i guess that jeff made outright lies to prove that the thing he loves most in games (raiding) has such a tiny following. now see, jeff put the actual number of people raiding, not a %. a calculator gave me the percent by comparing how many people play to how many raid.
feel free to apologize.
Good post man I knew this was the case I knew very few people that cared to raid. It was just tough- it many cases it required leaving the guild you were apart of to join a hardocre raiding guild full of people that could barely get along all because 'loot was the tie that held the guild together'. Not all guilds were like this. I stuck with my RL friends and we eventually built up enough to hit Molten Core, Onyxia, etc. Anyway, just giving a reason why many cant raid. Also, if you rolled undesireable classes like rogue, etc you might find it hard to join a raiding guild let alone get a spot on Molten Core, etc
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Spot on... (myselg, a member of majority - a casual non-raider - with a LIFE
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Don't you think you have just completely and totally opposed your very own opinion with this?
Gotcha... (was too easy anyway
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
be available. If the game is extremely gear oriented then an
alternative way of getting the gear should exist. To be fair though,
the best MMOS I saw were the one that crafting had a huge impact on the
world.
I definitely think that if you put so many hours into a game and building your character, you should be rewarded with possibilities at the end of the game that will make the hard work worthwhile. Raiding is fine for people who like it, but not everyone can enjoy tedium. I'd like to see more random content, that can have the same possibility for rare drops, but is more customizable to playing style. If the gaming industry promotes an attitude that players should have no life in order to fully enjoy their games, then they will have few gamers paying their subscriptions. Especially because a gamer who spends all their time playing games has no time to work for the money to pay the subscriptions. Yeah. Anyway, I agree with this article.
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Agree completely with the OP. It is refreshing to see dedicated gaming sites stating this point.
This needs to said.
This needs to be repeated.
And most importantly some smart developer needs to DO it and show the gaming market that the tired, tedious game mechanics left-over from Everquest need to evolve.
I think 2007 will be the year when MMORPGs finally see this happen. There are more than a few games that are trying to address this problem.
Let's hope at least one of them gets it right, because if they don't - if at least one of those games doesn't succeeed, we will be looking at another entire decade of Raid or Die MMORPG gameplay started by EQ and perpetuated by WoW.
2007 is the year to watch.
I agree with the article writer. Its a low budget way of increasing the games length. Instead of creating a sandbox environment, they use a treadmill. Its sucks, one day people will figure it out...... i hope.
Spiritglow