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Non Raid server - Yes or No?

EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338
After seeing I don't know how many threads derailed by this argument I thought I'd do a quick and simple poll.

Feel free to vote and argue as much as you like (hopefully it will help keep other threads on topic!!)



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Comments

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,860

    I'm one of those guys who bitches about raiding all the time but I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the idea of a non-raid server.  However, since the whole raiding issue is the primary reason why I won't even consider playing Vanguard I have to say that if they had a non-raid server it would do away with my biggest hang up with the game and I would no longer be absolutely opposed to playing it.  But they would have to make some pretty solid statements to ensure me of their committment to keep the server truly raid free.

    In fact, if they were to take such a huge step forward, even if it was just on one server, I might feel almost duty bound to try the game just to support a company that finally recognized that these games don't always have to revolve around boring crap designed to favor a tiny fraction of gamers.

    But I'm not going to hold my breath for this to happen because it goes against Brad's whole philosophy of game design.

  • EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338

    I must admit that I'm no fan of raid content and have not participated due to the time it takes to both gather up the required people and then the time to run the raid...

    However I don't think its fair on developers to be forced into thinking out upgrades and expansion based on multiple rule-sets.

    I see it as detracting from the game to remove it, I also don't get the whole "you HAVE to raid" argument, sure maybe you're missing 20% of the top gear, but it it really all that important??

    I suspect its more a case of your mates are off to do something you don't like and you're left all alone feeling miserable kicking around your virtual stone.

    Anyway it all seems very silly to me, but then ruining the balance of a game for one group of people always did (see PvP "Balancing" on any primarily PvE game for reference!!)


    Currently Playing: GW2
    Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
    Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185
    I'm not exactly sure how a company would pull off a server like this.  I've heard some of the suggestions as to how it would work, but I think they were over-simplified.  They wouldn't be able to just incorporate all the content of raiding into grouping.  It doesn't work that way.  That would require an entire rewrite of 20% of the game.  No way they would do that for a single server.

    For this to have a chance I see it working one of two ways. 

    1. They just remove all content related to raiding. Period.  It plays just like the rest of the servers, except there are zero opportunities for raiding - ever.  No content, no gear, no quests, just take everthing created for raiding out.

    2. They leave all content for raiding in place, but take away the ability to form a raid.  Meaning that sure, you CAN go into any raid content you want, but you have to work through it with a normal sized group.  Not a lot of chance for success, but hey; the content is still there.

    With option 2, it would be at the same monthly rate as any other server.  However, option 1 would require a monthly premium - not exactly sure how much more. 

    The reason for this is that with option 1, they would have to create two totally seperate patches, each and every time they updated.  They would have to make sure that all raid content was removed from every single patch.  Every expansion would also have to be re-done to clean out all raid content.  This would most likely require a small group of devs dedicated to just doing that exclusively; clearing out raid content from patches, expansions, hot fixes, etc.

    So, considering that it would cost them more to run a raid-free server.  It only makes sense that they would charge more.  So, then the question becomes how many would pay more for a server like that?  And, how much more would they pay?



  • EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338
    I don't agree that the changes made would require a premium, but they would have had to have thought of it early, so that items/content would be flagged as "raid", that way the client would simply filter anything marked as raid from the availble content.

    This would mean that its the same patch, its just that they don;t use 20% of it.

    I'd say running a non-raid is a little more work than running a PvP server, but not much.



    Currently Playing: GW2
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  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by EliasThorne
    I don't agree that the changes made would require a premium, but they would have had to have thought of it early, so that items/content would be flagged as "raid", that way the client would simply filter anything marked as raid from the availble content.

    This would mean that its the same patch, its just that they don;t use 20% of it.

    I'd say running a non-raid is a little more work than running a PvP server, but not much.

    I agree IF they had a flag on anything to do with raid in the database.  Then, you are right they could just filter out all content with such a flag. 

    But, not sure if that would work with everything.  Sure, it would work for items.  But how about places, quests, NPC's, etc.  Not sure if a simple "flag" would work for ALL content.  You may be right though.

    I still think the easier way of doing it would be to just remove the ability to form a raid group.  Then, it would just work like a really, really, hard group encounter.


  • EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338

    I think to a point you;re right - removing the ability to form a raid group would work, however the usual vocal minority would cry and scream that x quest (originally a raid) was impossible.

    Then the devs would try and fix it, no doubt breaking it for the mainstream servers and so it would go on... not putting too fine a point on it but "fixing" the raid would end up just like "balancing" for PvP.

    PS: Can this go in the record books for the most civil raid discussion ever image


    Currently Playing: GW2
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  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by EliasThorne
    I think to a point you;re right - removing the ability to form a raid group would work, however the usual vocal minority would cry and scream that x quest (originally a raid) was impossible.

    Then the devs would try and fix it, no doubt breaking it for the mainstream servers and so it would go on... not putting too fine a point on it but "fixing" the raid would end up just like "balancing" for PvP.

    PS: Can this go in the record books for the most civil raid discussion ever image

    Heh, no doubt.  Hopefully it will stay civil as well.

    I wish they would not let the alternative ruleset servers dictate what happens to the majority of servers, but you are right; we've seen it happen in previous games.

    The only way to make both sets happy is to have two different patches.  (Possibly more depending on the amount of different ruleset servers).  This however would be extremely costly to any company as it would require a lot more developers on staff.  Which would mean that alternative servers would have to pay a premium.  Not sure that would work.

    The other alternative is only worry about the regular servers.  Let the patches do what they may to the alternative servers.  Part of the risk on playing on an alternative server.  This approach satifies the majority and takes no extra time for the devs.  The down-side is that there will be plenty of unhappy players on the alternative servers. 

    As long as this method of server patching was unmistakeably made clear before a person made a character on such a server though, I think that attitude could be mitigated.  It wouldn't  eliminate it though, we only have to look at the players that whine when thier Beta accounts are wiped for such evidence. image






  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    Nah, this is way too complex for no reason.

     

    They remove nothing.  They add an "easier" way to acquire all raid loot.  Such as a merchant.  The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind.  So, at worst a merchant, at best some grouping encounter.

     

    Raid-free doesn't mean you have to go and remove the raiding content, you just make it easier to acquire this gear in another way, thereby effectively removing raiding-enforcement, which is the point here.  There is no sense in reworking stuff too much.

     

    Adding 1 merchant, with all raid loot, that require whatever $ or some points like in LDoN, this is not costy at all, it is easy to implement, it is efficient...and the game is balanced to have this gear.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338
    Yes, but that way they need to run two patches as Dragonace said to accommodate the merchant etc..

    If there weren't a separate patch for the non-raid community then why raid in the first place, everyone would take the route of least resistance and farm enough money to buy the good stuff they wanted and just ignore the extra content, then in time the devs would stop adding raid content and everyone is on the non-raid servers (hmn.. maybe that was your plan all along image)

    And god help us all if the patches get mixed up image



    Currently Playing: GW2
    Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
    Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by EliasThorne
    Yes, but that way they need to run two patches as Dragonace said to accommodate the merchant etc..

    If there weren't a separate patch for the non-raid community then why raid in the first place, everyone would take the route of least resistance and farm enough money to buy the good stuff they wanted and just ignore the extra content, then in time the devs would stop adding raid content and everyone is on the non-raid servers (hmn.. maybe that was your plan all along image)

    And god help us all if the patches get mixed up image




    I don't see your point.  On these server you have raiding as usual, but nobody would raid because of the merchant (or whatever) and raiders will stick to servers where nobody but raiders get the phat l33t, so really, who care if raiding is enable or not?  This is MINIMAL work, we are talking of a few NPCs with all raiding loot on sell, this is all.  Anything more complex is welcome, but it isn't necessary.

    If you want to make only 1 patch, you put the merchant on the raiding server but you also put a few codes to prevent any interaction with them and have a generic sentence instead of merchant-opening, but that is up to their techies to figure, very easy.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • EliasThorneEliasThorne Member UncommonPosts: 338
    Are you suggesting that its the merchant that has the flag, so that he isn't available on the standard servers?

    If so that might work, but if the merchant was enabled on the normal servers people just wouldn't go to all the effort to raid if there was an easy way to get the same gear, oh and I think you're getting your "l33t" speak mixed up, shouldn't it have been "phat l00t" image

    Anywho I'm off home now so I'll bug you guys some more tomorrow :)



    Currently Playing: GW2
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  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by EliasThorne
    Are you suggesting that its the merchant that has the flag, so that he isn't available on the standard servers?

    If so that might work,



    Yup, you just disable the "easy-merchant" on the regular server.  So only the raid-free server get that option, which would effectively make the server raid-free.  (Now, it can be more complex than a merchant, but I talk minimal, if they want to give a full fledge LDoN, up to them, but merchant is enought)

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Anofalye
    Nah, this is way too complex for no reason.   They remove nothing.  They add an "easier" way to acquire all raid loot.  Such as a merchant.  The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind.  So, at worst a merchant, at best some grouping encounter.   Raid-free doesn't mean you have to go and remove the raiding content, you just make it easier to acquire this gear in another way, thereby effectively removing raiding-enforcement, which is the point here.  There is no sense in reworking stuff too much.
    Heh, I think you are trying to make it way too simple.  In order to have a shot at getting this - you need to spell out exactly the steps it would take to run a server like this - from a company/developer point of view.  How they could add this "easier" way without requiring a lot more developer time.

    When you say "at best some grouping encounter".  Would you care to go into more depth than that?  I guess I just don't see how you think re-developing 20% of the content that was designed for raid into group isn't complex?  I'm eager to listen though.

    As far as putting it on a merchant - come on, that's not a serious alternative.  If that is a serious alternative, then why not just put all the gear on merchants and make all the mobs just drop gold? 

    If all the raid gear was available on merchants, don't you think that would attract an abnormal amount of botters and gold-farmers to the server?  How would you prevent that from happening on a server where you could buy all the raid stuff?  Who would set the price for such items as well?  What if you think they are impossibly high-priced?



  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185
    Thought I would bring up this one line as well.

    "The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind."

    I disagree.  I've played plenty of MMO's without acquiring a single raid-piece of gear.  I didn't feel gimped in the least.  If you're so inclined I guess I would like to know why you think that is the case with Vanguard.  Especially since you seem to think that it's such basic common knowledge that it's just a given. 

    I for one, can say that is not the case for me.



  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by dragonace
    Thought I would bring up this one line as well.

    "The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind."

    I disagree.  I've played plenty of MMO's without acquiring a single raid-piece of gear.  I didn't feel gimped in the least.  If you're so inclined I guess I would like to know why you think that is the case with Vanguard.  Especially since you seem to think that it's such basic common knowledge that it's just a given. 

    I for one, can say that is not the case for me.




    They design high-end grouping encounter so that raiders and peoples with the best gear can face it.  The game is design with this gear in mind, for the end-game.  So the best grouping encounters, especially after expansions, are thinked with the fact peoples get the gear from raids.

     

    It has to be there, or you can up by 20% all the other gear, but that would be a long work, wouldn't it?

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185
    Also, you didn't really bring up the problem of all the rest of the raid content if you simply put all the gear on a merchant.  The places, the NPC's, the quests, etc.

    I think that's one of the biggest areas that we disagree on. 
    I see raiding as an addtional 20% of CONTENT that I probably won't use. 
    You see raiding as an additional 20% of ITEMS you don't have access to.

    If you put all the raid items on a merchant are you honestly going to tell me people are still going to go through the CONTENT just for the fun of it?  Heh, I'm thinking a lot more than me won't buy that one.

    I'm not sure if you've said it in so many words, but I get the impression that you think the ONLY reason to go through raid-content is for the ITEMS.  Well, if those very items are now on a merchant; exactly what would be the reason for experiencing that 20% of content then? 

    So, even though you say not to remove anything.  If you put the items on a merchant, you would be doing exactly that. 



  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,860

    Once again, it ain't gonna happen.  But just for the heck of it this is what I think they should do with a non-raid server.

    Simply turn off the loot drops for raid content.  Leave the content there but remove any and all rewards for doing it.  So it's still there if anyone ever actually wanted to do it just for fun.  I say turn the raid rewards off because I wouldn't trust them to stick to a raiding-not-required approach to the server otherwise.

    Ok, but future content on normal servers will be adjusted towards the uber raid loot on those servers (and old content tweaked to adjust for it).  So then they either have to alter the code for the non-raid server or they have to put in a way for the people there to get the uber loot.  Either way it's going to be extra work for the devs.

    What I would prefer is that they put the uber loot in as rewards for 1 to 6 person quests and/or as rewards for 1 to 6 person dungeon crawls.  Because I'd like to have some non-raiding end-game content for once anyway....which will never happen in a game or on a server with raiding.

    But personally I'd bet on hell freezing over before I'd bet on Brad doing anything like this.

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Anofalye
    Originally posted by dragonace
    Thought I would bring up this one line as well.

    "The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind."

    I disagree.  I've played plenty of MMO's without acquiring a single raid-piece of gear.  I didn't feel gimped in the least.  If you're so inclined I guess I would like to know why you think that is the case with Vanguard.  Especially since you seem to think that it's such basic common knowledge that it's just a given. 

    I for one, can say that is not the case for me.


    They design high-end grouping encounter so that raiders and peoples with the best gear can face it.  The game is design with this gear in mind, for the end-game.  So the best grouping encounters, especially after expansions, are thinked with the fact peoples get the gear from raids.

     

    It has to be there, or you can up by 20% all the other gear, but that would be a long work, wouldn't it?


    But why?  It would only need to be that way on server with raid.  On this raid-free server, there wouldn't be that assumption.  There would be the knowledge that those items don't exist, so those high-end grouping encounters are assumed to only have what is aquireable through grouping and solo.  What is wrong with that?




  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by dragonace



    Originally posted by Anofalye

    Nah, this is way too complex for no reason.
     
    They remove nothing.  They add an "easier" way to acquire all raid loot.  Such as a merchant.  The gear is needed and the game, even grouping, is balanced with this gear in mind.  So, at worst a merchant, at best some grouping encounter.
     
    Raid-free doesn't mean you have to go and remove the raiding content, you just make it easier to acquire this gear in another way, thereby effectively removing raiding-enforcement, which is the point here.  There is no sense in reworking stuff too much.


    Heh, I think you are trying to make it way too simple.  In order to have a shot at getting this - you need to spell out exactly the steps it would take to run a server like this - from a company/developer point of view.  How they could add this "easier" way without requiring a lot more developer time.

    When you say "at best some grouping encounter".  Would you care to go into more depth than that?  I guess I just don't see how you think re-developing 20% of the content that was designed for raid into group isn't complex?  I'm eager to listen though.

    As far as putting it on a merchant - come on, that's not a serious alternative.  If that is a serious alternative, then why not just put all the gear on merchants and make all the mobs just drop gold? 

    If all the raid gear was available on merchants, don't you think that would attract an abnormal amount of botters and gold-farmers to the server?  How would you prevent that from happening on a server where you could buy all the raid stuff?  Who would set the price for such items as well?  What if you think they are impossibly high-priced?



    Yes, the merchant is a serious alternative.  It can be gold, it can be another currency, such as LDoN.  This is MINIMAL work.  You can just put all the loot as NO DROP and put a currency such as LDoN, where you can't trade it, you will have no botter or gold-farmers.  Personnally I never care about these.  If I find them impossibly high-priced, the devs are nuts, since I did get all my AAs by mid-march 2003, I was at 200 AAs before PoP release.  So if someone like me find them impossibly high-priced, it is indeed impossibly high-priced.  See, you need AT LEAST as much peoples % on the raid-free server getting the items than on the raiding, if not a LOT more.  It would prolly be too high priced, I know these devs, however I am pretty sure that me, my selfish person, would find them still quite affordable and accessible.  It is up to them to balance the price, but making them too easy is better than making them too hard, yet, I know myself, would still find them quite accessible...unless they are completely nuts.  See, someone should earn this gear "EASIER" than raider, including in time, this should give you a good guideline...and I mean in time invested doing the activity, not in real time in the month...so if someone do it non-stop, yeah they should max it quite fast, since raiders usually don't raid non-stop.  A good formulae would be something like, raid A take 2 hours and drop 3 loots for 30 players, thereby this is 20 hours per loot...make it 20 hours or less and considering the player choose what they buy, this is fine...

     

    The other option is more work, but they are welcome to it.  The merchant is no work at all.  The other option, eh, it is like a wish in a well, good if they do it.  But I will be happy with merchants.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by dragonace
    Also, you didn't really bring up the problem of all the rest of the raid content if you simply put all the gear on a merchant.  The places, the NPC's, the quests, etc.

    I think that's one of the biggest areas that we disagree on. 
    I see raiding as an addtional 20% of CONTENT that I probably won't use. 
    You see raiding as an additional 20% of ITEMS you don't have access to.

    If you put all the raid items on a merchant are you honestly going to tell me people are still going to go through the CONTENT just for the fun of it?  Heh, I'm thinking a lot more than me won't buy that one.

    I'm not sure if you've said it in so many words, but I get the impression that you think the ONLY reason to go through raid-content is for the ITEMS.  Well, if those very items are now on a merchant; exactly what would be the reason for experiencing that 20% of content then? 

    So, even though you say not to remove anything.  If you put the items on a merchant, you would be doing exactly that. 



    The idea is to get a raid-free server, to have an option to get the ITEMS to make you a better grouper without having to raid ever.

     

    Make it as interesting or as boring as you want, it is FAR better than raiding and the only reason I was ever raiding was for these items, you reduce the intolerable gring to an okay grind, which is a LOT better and I will do it in order to be better in the other aspects of the game.

    I see raiding as 20% of ITEMS I don't have access to IN ORDER TO PERFORM IN THE 80% REMAINING CONTENT.

     

    The reason I do it, is for the 80% remaining of the content.  Missing these items is unacceptable.  And I am not alone to think that way.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Neanderthal
    Once again, it ain't gonna happen.  But just for the heck of it this is what I think they should do with a non-raid server. Simply turn off the loot drops for raid content.  Leave the content there but remove any and all rewards for doing it.  So it's still there if anyone ever actually wanted to do it just for fun.  I say turn the raid rewards off because I wouldn't trust them to stick to a raiding-not-required approach to the server otherwise.I agree.  I think it would be a nice way to find out if people really mean what they say. 

    I think there is one group of people that agree raiding isn't all that fun, but they do it because they can't bear not having the items. 
    There are others (I'm in this group) that decide we can do without the items because we play games to have fun afterall, and for us raiding is not fun.
    There is another group that really does enjoy raiding and are doubly rewarded because they get good loot too.
    Then there is another group that must have the items, but in no way will raid for them.  There-in lies the problem.

    So, if a server is put up where these items don't exist.  What will happen?  I'd be perfectly happy playing there, since I don't really expect to ever acquire them anyway.  But, would the last group be happy?  Knowing that on some other server (in no way impacting their character) there are items that they don't have access to?  It would be an interesting test indeed. Ok, but future content on normal servers will be adjusted towards the uber raid loot on those servers (and old content tweaked to adjust for it).  So then they either have to alter the code for the non-raid server or they have to put in a way for the people there to get the uber loot.  Either way it's going to be extra work for the devs.I agree again.  Unless all such raid-content was removed entirely.  Meaning that every bit of content on this raid-free server was indeed balanced for groups only and for gear that is aquired by groups.
    What I would prefer is that they put the uber loot in as rewards for 1 to 6 person quests and/or as rewards for 1 to 6 person dungeon crawls.  Because I'd like to have some non-raiding end-game content for once anyway....which will never happen in a game or on a server with raiding.Heh, kinda like a lottery or some such?  image  Could be an interesting idea.  Make it so you could buy lottery tickets - perhaps max of one per day.  And they do a "drawing", the winner gets raid-loot item x.  Could be a nice compromise. 
    But personally I'd bet on hell freezing over before I'd bet on Brad doing anything like this. 
    Unless they thought they could make money on the idea.  That's the problem so far.  I don't think there has been enough thought put into what would feasibly work, for them to even consider it would make enough money for it to be worth the effort.


  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,311


    Originally posted by EliasThorne
    After seeing I don't know how many threads derailed by this argument I thought I'd do a quick and simple poll.Feel free to vote and argue as much as you like (hopefully it will help keep other threads on topic!!)

    heh, it doesn't matter how many topics you make about raiding, certain people on these forums (you know who you are) will always derail nearly every topic with their anti raiding argument.

    i think their should be a non-raiding server (if not in vanguard then in some other game) just so these people will STHU ::::02::

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Anofalye
    Originally posted by dragonace
    Also, you didn't really bring up the problem of all the rest of the raid content if you simply put all the gear on a merchant.  The places, the NPC's, the quests, etc.

    I think that's one of the biggest areas that we disagree on. 
    I see raiding as an addtional 20% of CONTENT that I probably won't use. 
    You see raiding as an additional 20% of ITEMS you don't have access to.

    If you put all the raid items on a merchant are you honestly going to tell me people are still going to go through the CONTENT just for the fun of it?  Heh, I'm thinking a lot more than me won't buy that one.

    I'm not sure if you've said it in so many words, but I get the impression that you think the ONLY reason to go through raid-content is for the ITEMS.  Well, if those very items are now on a merchant; exactly what would be the reason for experiencing that 20% of content then? 

    So, even though you say not to remove anything.  If you put the items on a merchant, you would be doing exactly that. 

    The idea is to get a raid-free server, to have an option to get the ITEMS to make you a better grouper without having to raid ever.

    But why even have the items in the first place on a raid-free server?  I guess I just don't see the point.  If all the raid content is removed, and the server is made so that every encounter takes that into account, then why even have the gear there in the first place?  

    Make it as interesting or as boring as you want, it is FAR better than raiding and the only reason I was ever raiding was for these items, you reduce the intolerable gring to an okay grind, which is a LOT better and I will do it in order to be better in the other aspects of the game.

    I see raiding as 20% of ITEMS I don't have access to IN ORDER TO PERFORM IN THE 80% REMAINING CONTENT.

    The reason I do it, is for the 80% remaining of the content.  Missing these items is unacceptable.  And I am not alone to think that way.

    Heh, I'm sure it looked good typing it down.  But, come on.  80% of the remaining content requires that 20%?  How was I able to complete any of the content I did then, considering I didn't acquire this raid-gear?  You will have to admit that a good portion of that 80% is accomplished just fine without a single bit coming from the other 20%.  So, then what percentage is actually needed from the 20% to complete the 80%.  I propose zero.  I know we disagree on that point, but that's the way I've played in my MMO's and it works for me. 

    (Yes, I know we are talking about a game that we haven't played yet, but assume that the 20% and 80% corresonds to whatever percentages from games that we have played. )




  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630

    From my point of view, raiding is just one iteration of a much larger problem. If you change or eliminate raiding without addressing that problem, it's the same stuff, different day.

    Mmos have become much less about adventure, friendship, excitement, roleplay, immersion, etc. and have become all about status - status being a function of levels and items. Some games are worse about that than others, but they all suffer from the glorification of the e-peen. Seemingly every gamemaker includes, as part of the design, some way that if you spend 10 hours a day doing something - in most cases raiding -  you will become a living god in comparison to your peers. 

    Vanguard pays lip service to not being raid heavy by saying most encounters are for groups. But it is still an ultra item centric game, and the best items still come primarily from raids. Now some will take issue with that and point out that quality items will come from other places, but note that Sigil hasn't said a word about the frequency that will happen versus the frequency nice items can be obtained from raiding. So, for example, you can get a purple item off a random mob in WoW soloing. That doesn't happen very often. Purple items drop every night in raids.

    I want to see a game with less stratifications and hierarchies. To do that, and keep players interested, you have to break away from the pack and stop making the same damn game over and over again. EQ, WoW, Vanguard - same basic game with different drop rates and experience curves. I want to see one of these Devs like Brad McQuaid or Raph Koster who fancy thenmselves intellectuals actually innovate. Let's see them make a game that remains fun even if there is not a continuous grind/raid to the next bauble. So far they are just animating pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons.

    Why can't I log on and look forward to an adventure, the purpose of which IS the adventure, instead of getting the sword of a thousand truths? Why should my friends and I not hunt together because of some silly number over our heads?

    My biggest issue with Vanguard is that design decision #1 was "ok, how do we make sure that guilds like Fires of Heaven are radically better than everyone else?" Let's make sure that for everything in the game, even a glass of water, that there be noob water and low level water and mid level water and high level water and of course, for the privileged few, Perrier. Man that gets so old.

    I don't mind having treasure be a part of the game, but Vanguard and others have gone way past that and made it THE game. That is simply a failure of imagination.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    I think that some of the blame, Amathe; also has to be shared with the players themselves.  We've heard it from many posters, in this very thread in fact.

    "I want to be the BEST!"  Best enchanter, best cleric, best bard, whatever.  It's this drive to be the BEST that the Devs are fueling with their current game designs.  It's a natural human tendency, so it doesn't really have a right or wrong answer, but in a gaming setting; it tends to bring out the worst in us.

    It doesn't have to be that way though.  There are still opportunites for players to adventure, roleplay, make friends, and become immersed in the game. 

    I'll use my time on SWG as an example.  I started playing SWG about 2 weeks after it came out.  I really liked the exploration aspect of it (and this was before transportation of any kind - you hoofed it wherever you went!)  as well as the speculation mining/harvesting and the creature taming.  I got some of my friends interested in the game and before too long we were all getting together 2 or 3 times a week for some gaming adventures.

    We had been playing about 2 or 3 weeks or so dabbling into different professions (there were about 30 or so back then).  We then decided to experience some more challenging content, so we took off to Lok in search for some Kimogilas that we had heard people taking about in the cantinas.  Did we do it for the items?  Nope - can't even remember if kimogilas dropped anything or not.  Did we do it for the xp?  Nope.  We just did it for the fun of it.  We finally found one and it took us almost 20 minutes to finally bring it down.  We didn't have a clue of what we doing, but it sure was fun!

    The next week we went to Tattoonine in search of a Kryat Dragon.  Heh, that was a mistake!  We all died horribly.  Who would have thought they would be that much tougher than a Kimogila!  image  The point is we did it just for the adventure, excitement, immersinon, etc.

    Unfortunately the game and some of our priorites changed, so we moved on.  So, I agree that the Devs are making it harder for us to forget about the levels and items in their current crop of games.  However, there are still opportunities out there - they just don't seem to last as long anymore.  image


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