i agree with you wow is like a singel player game and for noobs and starters in mmo. all what u have to do is from lvl 1 to 59 is quest and some bg and intances lvl 60 u get to raid raid this suxx. raid in wow at lvl 60 what the big deal with raid whileu can raid in many other mmo games at any lvl. many of my friends who play wow think thats its the only game out and they dont know what is mmorpg..i played wow till lvl 33 shadow priest i thought the game was amazing because of my friends but it suked no real pvp ....
list of endgame dungeons: 5man: DM(east, west, north), strat (live/dead), scholo, lbrs/ubrs, ZG, AQ20, MC, BWL, AQ40, naxx Totals by numbers: 5man: 6, 10man: 2, 20man: 2, 40man: 4 not a bad selection for the casual player, and considering in an established server you can find up to BWL pugs (in my own server there are even AQ40 pug or 2), what you do need to get reinvited to these raids is to prove yoursef a capable player, and not a jerk who thinks he's above everyone else (and/or does stupid things for his own amusement causing raid failure).
if someone ask you for your opinion then by all means, please tell them. other then that no one gives a damn about why you are a firm believer in the "care bearness" of WoW.
Is WoW my drug of choice? Not really... i'm much more a sci-fi guy over fantasy, but i'll tell you what... blizzard has done 90% of things right here. They actually make attempts every year for there holidays and do something a little different for them and they try and make good customer relations. The game is as well balanced as it can be without overly taking the proverbal nerf bat to it.
I use to play CoX and LOVED the game, but the problem was that when one class was having problems they would bitch and the devs would see it fit to nerf the other classes then fix the one.
All in all, if you dont like it thats fine. We're not forcing you to play.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
Originally posted by Streaper Totally disagree on that. Just because you aren't excepted for good raiding guild doesn't mean end-game sucks Try RP-ing, can be fun as well.
I can also find RP-ing fun in the hallways, don't need a game for that.
However, raiding screw the game for me and is the main reason I don't bother with it. And getting into a raiding guild would not be the challenge, the challenge would be for me to actually enjoy that, which I know I would despite. Raiding is the most despictable thing you can ask me to do in a game. Release the PK, GM abusers, whatever, it isn't going to be worser than that raiding thing.
A game with raiding-enforcing doesn't deserve to be played. If I can't be free of raiding, I will be free of the game. Devs choice. Raiding is also extremely detrimental on the fanbase in the longterm.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Aseenus Originally posted by DemonknightIlist of endgame dungeons: 5man: DM(east, west, north), strat (live/dead), scholo, lbrs/ubrs, ZG, AQ20, MC, BWL, AQ40, naxx Totals by numbers: 5man: 6, 10man: 2, 20man: 2, 40man: 4 not a bad selection for the casual player, and considering in an established server you can find up to BWL pugs (in my own server there are even AQ40 pug or 2), what you do need to get reinvited to these raids is to prove yoursef a capable player, and not a jerk who thinks he's above everyone else (and/or does stupid things for his own amusement causing raid failure). You forgot Ony/Azuregos/Kazzak/4 emerald dragons )))
Oh right I guess I forgot about those.
There's also a few 5-10 man dungeons where you get equipment that is lightyears behind raider's equipment. So you can suit up and since your equipment is sub-par and you don't belong to a raidguild, go into battlegrounds and get runover by a raid guild.
This game is built on raiding, don't even bother debating it and making a fool of yourself. If you can raid then you'll be able to match equipment that's exactly the same as a few thousand people sitting in ironforge. Otherwise, you're going to be "that guy" in battlegrounds that's just run over by superior equipment.
Btw, player skill in this game is pretty minimal. The only time player skill comes into play is when you're fighting 1on1 with someone as a level 1-59 against a 1-59 same level or on those rare occasions with a level 60 on 60 with similar gear. Otherwise it's strictly comes down to who had more time to raid. It is possible to kill someone at level 60 with raidgear if you're in UBRS gear, but that person would have to be asleep at the keyboard, jerkin it to porn, or is playing their dad's character.
Blizzard could SO easily kill the raid=rule concept by including endgame rewards out of raid and pvp content, like explorer rewards for people who have been to large parts of the game world, or adventurer awards for doing nearly all possible quests or awards for players that have played in groups for a very long time, and so on...
And make the rewards par with the uber stuff you get from the uber mobs in the uber instances. And, at the same time, split the gear for purpose. Raiding gear should be mainly about resistance and not so much about uber-damage, whereas explorer rewards could focus on travelling speed, terrain negotiation and stuff and the pvp gear is focused on damage; also, including up- and degrades for gear would be very very nice, sockets, runes that make items more fit for different playstyles. Not like permanent powerups (+200 mana) with no downside, more like (+200 mana and -15 life regen), a little more of guildwars here would definitely spice the endgame up a lot !
Originally posted by DemonknightI WoW probably has the most disappointing endgame of any other MMO
Try City of Heroes, Planetside, WW2 Online, Eve Online, Anarchy Online, D&D Online, Matrix Online. Only noobs complain about WoW endgame. Most MMO's don't have any endgame.
The reason people complain so much about WoW endgame, is that it actually has some to complain about.
Originally posted by Meridion Blizzard could SO easily kill the raid=rule concept by including endgame rewards out of raid and pvp content, like explorer rewards for people who have been to large parts of the game world, or adventurer awards for doing nearly all possible quests or awards for players that have played in groups for a very long time, and so on...
And make the rewards par with the uber stuff you get from the uber mobs in the uber instances. And, at the same time, split the gear for purpose. Raiding gear should be mainly about resistance and not so much about uber-damage, whereas explorer rewards could focus on travelling speed, terrain negotiation and stuff and the pvp gear is focused on damage; also, including up- and degrades for gear would be very very nice, sockets, runes that make items more fit for different playstyles. Not like permanent powerups (+200 mana) with no downside, more like (+200 mana and -15 life regen), a little more of guildwars here would definitely spice the endgame up a lot !
Meridion
They don't want to do that. Rob Pardo said as much at his AGC talk. Raiding is the core of the donut.
Originally posted by DemonknightI WoW probably has the most disappointing endgame of any other MMO
Try City of Heroes, Planetside, WW2 Online, Eve Online, Anarchy Online, D&D Online, Matrix Online. Only noobs complain about WoW endgame. Most MMO's don't have any endgame.
The reason people complain so much about WoW endgame, is that it actually has some to complain about.
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
WoW, CoH, AO, DDO, TMO do not have much in the realm of that sort of content. WoW end game is only as good as the number of times you want to run MC, NAx, AQ40, BWL. That isnt for everyone.
WW2O is abad game but it has great player created endgame content. Eve IMO has the best endgame content. I still have an active Eve account, it's the only MMO I have yet to cancel. Not only does CCP have great updates to their game, but they really allow you to play the game how ever you want. The game takes some getting used to and isnt for everyone (can be confusing/slow for people) but once you get in a corp and start doing your thing you would hoenstly have some of the best times you've ever had in a MMO.
If i wanted to have a decent PVE experience i'd play a single player RPG (oblivion, NWN2, Gothic 3) If i wanted to have a decent PVP experience id play a decent MMORPG - oh wait, they are all crap now thanks to everquest clones saturationg the market ie WOW If i wanted to spends pointless hours grinding - experience, honur points, items etc.. then i'd play WOW
And don't bring WOW so called PVP servers into this. PVP in WOW is an absolute joke at best. Zerging / grinding ganking for hours is enough to turn even the most hardcore MMORPG noob off PVP - good job blizzard!!
Bring back the old days when noobs didn't ruin the whole MMORPG scene. Bring back the good days when UO was uncorrupted, when AC darktide was populated, when tibia was open PVP and free!
Hopefully all of you will also get the chance to experience a good MMORPG one day! One day...
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
All games do this. Even MSN messenger does this.
I completely agree there is only so many times one is willing to repeat the same old content, but short of just inventing imaginary PvP wars amongst yourselves, there really isn't else anything a game can offer. At least WoW does offer it. And it does add to it regulalry.
All the rest have zilcho. Next to nothing or completely nothing. PvP amongst yourselves or log out.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by arfritz
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
All games do this. Even MSN messenger does this.
I completely agree there is only so many times one is willing to repeat the same old content, but short of just inventing imaginary PvP wars amongst yourselves, there really isn't else anything a game can offer. At least WoW does offer it. And it does add to it regulalry.
All the rest have zilcho. Next to nothing or completely nothing. PvP amongst yourselves or log out.
WoW didn't invent raiding, it copied it just like it copied everything else. Wow is the most unoriginal game ever made. WoW offers only one thing as end game, repetition. You either raid through same instances, or you honor grind, which is watered down version of real PvP. WoW endgame sucks major balls, even blizzard knows this.
My idea of a good endgame would be something like Ultime Online had. The game is outdated and went down the crapper after trammel, but man that game was fun. PLayer housing/castles, freedome to do basically anything, crafting that was actually gather the materials and do it like you would in real life. Man that game kicked ass.
If i wanted to have a decent PVE experience i'd play a single player RPG (oblivion, NWN2, Gothic 3) If i wanted to have a decent PVP experience id play a decent MMORPG - oh wait, they are all crap now thanks to everquest clones saturationg the market ie WOW If i wanted to spends pointless hours grinding - experience, honur points, items etc.. then i'd play WOW
And don't bring WOW so called PVP servers into this. PVP in WOW is an absolute joke at best. Zerging / grinding ganking for hours is enough to turn even the most hardcore MMORPG noob off PVP - good job blizzard!!
Bring back the old days when noobs didn't ruin the whole MMORPG scene. Bring back the good days when UO was uncorrupted, when AC darktide was populated, when tibia was open PVP and free!
Hopefully all of you will also get the chance to experience a good MMORPG one day! One day...
This is MORONIC.
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month".
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month". Lets see... the original MMORPGs - including MUD based games had good PVP, UO had good PVP, Tibia had good PVP, AC1 had good PVP even diablo had decent PVP! Then came the carebear games ie Everquest. All the noobs flocked to it. All the developers copied it. The MMORPG genre was ruined.
And thats where we are at. We have the MMORPG noobs on one side and the MMORPG veterans on the other.
Yes, i tried WOW, i gave it a shot. I played on the so called "PVP server" only to find the PVP system was again based on another form of grind with no risk, no reward - unless you grind honor points for 10 hours a day, joy!
A RPG is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, the title suggests nothing in regards to endless pve grinds. Have a look at UO, you could be pretty much whatever you wanted to be...farmer, fisherman, crafter, miner, pet handler ETC ETC you had choices! What choices or ROLES do you have in WOW? Exactly, you are all playing the same role.
PS WOW crashed often enough without my help, infact, i remember sitting in the queue for an hour or two just waiting to login! Nice to know i was getting my moneys worth.
I agree. But there's nothing else out there to play that has remotely a good system that WOW offers. Hence I went back to WOW and am currently grinding another 60 undead rogue. Which I am enjoying every minute,because I love WOW's control system,TBC comes out in January slap-bang when I just about hit 60.
It may not have the best PvP,but it's sure fun to play regardless. It doesn't suffer from crappy controls or bugs,or even much lag like everything else I've played and tried and quit.
Comments
lol oops ignore that part and focus on the other contents
PLZ CHOSE THE MEH FOR SPELB0rNe BETAZ KTHKXGUDBYE
i agree with you wow is like a singel player game and for noobs and starters in mmo. all what u have to do is from lvl 1 to 59 is quest and some bg and intances lvl 60 u get to raid raid this suxx. raid in wow at lvl 60 what the big deal with raid whileu can raid in many other mmo games at any lvl. many of my friends who play wow think thats its the only game out and they dont know what is mmorpg..i played wow till lvl 33 shadow priest i thought the game was amazing because of my friends but it suked no real pvp ....
Originally posted by DemonknightI
list of endgame dungeons: 5man: DM(east, west, north), strat (live/dead), scholo, lbrs/ubrs, ZG, AQ20, MC, BWL, AQ40, naxx
Totals by numbers: 5man: 6, 10man: 2, 20man: 2, 40man: 4
not
a bad selection for the casual player, and considering in an
established server you can find up to BWL pugs (in my own server there
are even AQ40 pug or 2), what you do need to get reinvited to these
raids is to prove yoursef a capable player, and not a jerk who thinks
he's above everyone else (and/or does stupid things for his own
amusement causing raid failure).
You forgot Ony/Azuregos/Kazzak/4 emerald dragons
see now, heres what gets me.
you dont like it. dont play it.
if someone ask you for your opinion then by all means, please tell them. other then that no one gives a damn about why you are a firm believer in the "care bearness" of WoW.
Is WoW my drug of choice? Not really... i'm much more a sci-fi guy over fantasy, but i'll tell you what... blizzard has done 90% of things right here. They actually make attempts every year for there holidays and do something a little different for them and they try and make good customer relations. The game is as well balanced as it can be without overly taking the proverbal nerf bat to it.
I use to play CoX and LOVED the game, but the problem was that when one class was having problems they would bitch and the devs would see it fit to nerf the other classes then fix the one.
All in all, if you dont like it thats fine. We're not forcing you to play.
"And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."
I can also find RP-ing fun in the hallways, don't need a game for that.
However, raiding screw the game for me and is the main reason I don't bother with it. And getting into a raiding guild would not be the challenge, the challenge would be for me to actually enjoy that, which I know I would despite. Raiding is the most despictable thing you can ask me to do in a game. Release the PK, GM abusers, whatever, it isn't going to be worser than that raiding thing.
A game with raiding-enforcing doesn't deserve to be played. If I can't be free of raiding, I will be free of the game. Devs choice. Raiding is also extremely detrimental on the fanbase in the longterm.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
There's also a few 5-10 man dungeons where you get equipment that is lightyears behind raider's equipment. So you can suit up and since your equipment is sub-par and you don't belong to a raidguild, go into battlegrounds and get runover by a raid guild.
This game is built on raiding, don't even bother debating it and making a fool of yourself. If you can raid then you'll be able to match equipment that's exactly the same as a few thousand people sitting in ironforge. Otherwise, you're going to be "that guy" in battlegrounds that's just run over by superior equipment.
Btw, player skill in this game is pretty minimal. The only time player skill comes into play is when you're fighting 1on1 with someone as a level 1-59 against a 1-59 same level or on those rare occasions with a level 60 on 60 with similar gear. Otherwise it's strictly comes down to who had more time to raid. It is possible to kill someone at level 60 with raidgear if you're in UBRS gear, but that person would have to be asleep at the keyboard, jerkin it to porn, or is playing their dad's character.
And make the rewards par with the uber stuff you get from the uber mobs in the uber instances. And, at the same time, split the gear for purpose. Raiding gear should be mainly about resistance and not so much about uber-damage, whereas explorer rewards could focus on travelling speed, terrain negotiation and stuff and the pvp gear is focused on damage; also, including up- and degrades for gear would be very very nice, sockets, runes that make items more fit for different playstyles. Not like permanent powerups (+200 mana) with no downside, more like (+200 mana and -15 life regen), a little more of guildwars here would definitely spice the endgame up a lot !
Meridion
Try City of Heroes, Planetside, WW2 Online, Eve Online, Anarchy Online, D&D Online, Matrix Online. Only noobs complain about WoW endgame. Most MMO's don't have any endgame.
The reason people complain so much about WoW endgame, is that it actually has some to complain about.
They don't want to do that. Rob Pardo said as much at his AGC talk. Raiding is the core of the donut.
go join all those l33t killaz that play shadowbane.
my 2 cents.
Try City of Heroes, Planetside, WW2 Online, Eve Online, Anarchy Online, D&D Online, Matrix Online. Only noobs complain about WoW endgame. Most MMO's don't have any endgame.
The reason people complain so much about WoW endgame, is that it actually has some to complain about.
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
WoW, CoH, AO, DDO, TMO do not have much in the realm of that sort of content. WoW end game is only as good as the number of times you want to run MC, NAx, AQ40, BWL. That isnt for everyone.
WW2O is abad game but it has great player created endgame content. Eve IMO has the best endgame content. I still have an active Eve account, it's the only MMO I have yet to cancel. Not only does CCP have great updates to their game, but they really allow you to play the game how ever you want. The game takes some getting used to and isnt for everyone (can be confusing/slow for people) but once you get in a corp and start doing your thing you would hoenstly have some of the best times you've ever had in a MMO.
Agree with OP.
If i wanted to have a decent PVE experience i'd play a single player RPG (oblivion, NWN2, Gothic 3)
If i wanted to have a decent PVP experience id play a decent MMORPG - oh wait, they are all crap now thanks to everquest clones saturationg the market ie WOW
If i wanted to spends pointless hours grinding - experience, honur points, items etc.. then i'd play WOW
And don't bring WOW so called PVP servers into this. PVP in WOW is an absolute joke at best. Zerging / grinding ganking for hours is enough to turn even the most hardcore MMORPG noob off PVP - good job blizzard!!
Bring back the old days when noobs didn't ruin the whole MMORPG scene. Bring back the good days when UO was uncorrupted, when AC darktide was populated, when tibia was open PVP and free!
Hopefully all of you will also get the chance to experience a good MMORPG one day! One day...
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
All games do this. Even MSN messenger does this.
I completely agree there is only so many times one is willing to repeat the same old content, but short of just inventing imaginary PvP wars amongst yourselves, there really isn't else anything a game can offer. At least WoW does offer it. And it does add to it regulalry.
All the rest have zilcho. Next to nothing or completely nothing. PvP amongst yourselves or log out.
Games with the best End Game IMO are those that allow you to make what you want for end game yourself.
All games do this. Even MSN messenger does this.
I completely agree there is only so many times one is willing to repeat the same old content, but short of just inventing imaginary PvP wars amongst yourselves, there really isn't else anything a game can offer. At least WoW does offer it. And it does add to it regulalry.
All the rest have zilcho. Next to nothing or completely nothing. PvP amongst yourselves or log out.
WoW didn't invent raiding, it copied it just like it copied everything else. Wow is the most unoriginal game ever made.
WoW offers only one thing as end game, repetition. You either raid through same instances, or you honor grind, which is watered down version of real PvP.
WoW endgame sucks major balls, even blizzard knows this.
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month".
Went to report this thread as simply a troll post but it appears that it has already been reported. Good.
We do not need posts like this and the sooner they are removed the better.
Guess you had a rough night in BG eh DemonKnightI?
If you want to trivialize the entire MMORPG genre, then let's do it. If you want decent PvP, go play a FPS or a frickin' combat game. Those will offer endless amounts of hardcore climax-inducing PvP action for all you "bad ass gamers". I beat the servers crashed in WoW once you entered a battleground, because Blizzard simply can't handle the amount of testosterone spewing from your eyeballs. How about this..you actually remember what a frickin' RPG is. Adventuring, killing MONSTERS, and gaining experience from it is a STAPLE OF THE ENTIRE GENRE, and has been longer than you've probably lived, so GET THE HELL OVER IT.
PvP is great fun, and there are quite a few MMORPGs coming out that focuses on this aspect of gameplay, but I'm seriously tired of hearing you people bitch simply because you did no research on a game before buying it. Yes, WoW is a PvE-based game. Anyone who had spent a SECOND researching it would have figured this out. You still choose to pay the game cost, pay the monthly fee, get to the endgame, and then declare how much you hated the game. Please, shut the hell up and learn how to make a rational decision before throwing your money at the "new game of the month".
Lets see... the original MMORPGs - including MUD based games had good PVP, UO had good PVP, Tibia had good PVP, AC1 had good PVP even diablo had decent PVP! Then came the carebear games ie Everquest. All the noobs flocked to it. All the developers copied it. The MMORPG genre was ruined.
And thats where we are at. We have the MMORPG noobs on one side and the MMORPG veterans on the other.
Yes, i tried WOW, i gave it a shot. I played on the so called "PVP server" only to find the PVP system was again based on another form of grind with no risk, no reward - unless you grind honor points for 10 hours a day, joy!
A RPG is a ROLE PLAYING GAME, the title suggests nothing in regards to endless pve grinds. Have a look at UO, you could be pretty much whatever you wanted to be...farmer, fisherman, crafter, miner, pet handler ETC ETC you had choices! What choices or ROLES do you have in WOW? Exactly, you are all playing the same role.
PS WOW crashed often enough without my help, infact, i remember sitting in the queue for an hour or two just waiting to login! Nice to know i was getting my moneys worth.
Seriously guys, WAKE UP! The grass was greener.
I agree. But there's nothing else out there to play that has remotely a good system that WOW offers. Hence I went back to WOW and am currently grinding another 60 undead rogue. Which I am enjoying every minute,because I love WOW's control system,TBC comes out in January slap-bang when I just about hit 60.
It may not have the best PvP,but it's sure fun to play regardless. It doesn't suffer from crappy controls or bugs,or even much lag like everything else I've played and tried and quit.