Loke666

I am a Swedish RPG fan who sometime make pen and paper stuff for roleplaying conventions. I love RPGs, MMOs and turned based strategy games, listens to metal and work as a CNC coder/industrial worker.  I currently live in Malmö (next to Coopenhagen) but will be moving to Öland soon. And for the moment I work weekends so I have plenty of spare time on weekdays but will be unavaliable saturdays and sundays. And I know stuff about history that makes people stare very strangely at me, just love to read about the past without any specific favorite period. I can use a sword, have a good one as well (hand made copy with the original from about year 1000) as a chainmail and helmet but I wouldn't call myself good with it. My favorite beverage is Guiness.

About

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Loke666
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Kalmar
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  • Why is the tab targetting combat system so popular?


    DMKano said:


    I agree with you 100% in genre not focusing on realism as a strong point.

    Personally in terms of actual "effective PvP fighting mechanics" that for a 2h melee is basically jumping over your target and doing 180 in the air and swinging .... yeah no.

    I am glad some enjoy this but it was beyond silly for me


    That depends on the game, if you make a Naruto MMO it sounds right but for any none martial art games it is just silly.

    I would enjoy a low fantasy or historical MMO with more realism, not 100% but 25% would be enough.

    One that actually hired in a few people that knows something about using swords and axes, a few people from SCA or ARMA would work fine, and maybe even let the devs learn the basics at least of it before cranking out another identical silly combat system that makes the anime Fairy tail look like a documentary in comparison.

    Particularly in a PvP game would some realism not be a bad thing, right now do all MMORPGs have rather boring PvP and maybe a little realism would make things more interesting. At least it can't get much worse compared to now when a mid level character can't even kill a high level character without armor no matter how many times you hit him/her.
    Steelhelm
  • Level Grind: can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

    Kaneth said:
    I feel you are severely underestimating the value of levels, even in a system where levels aren't as important.

    Take ESO for example. Every level you get to choose to increase health, magicka or stamina. Without a classic leveling system, when you get those points can become convoluted. Do you start everyone out at the same stats and then allow gear to determine? Do you allow folks to do quests to get increases in those areas? What about folks who don't want to quest?

    Gear drops are also something handled by leveling in ESO. The level of gear that is dropped is relative to your character level. Gear stats are determined by the level of the gear. If you did away with the level progression system, what gear you can wear also becomes convoluted. So what if your skill with the armor type determines what drops and what you can wear? That's great, but then if someone doesn't wear at least a piece of heavy, medium and light armor while grinding out skill levels, then what drops for them specifically becomes wildly different for each type of armor. If I am maxed in Heavy, but never wore light, I'd effectively get a piece of max level heavy and then starter light all off the same corpse/chest/quest. Additionally, without this leveling "gate" so to speak, people would go out and find the spots to grind out the best gear and be set potentially in a few days. If you're making gear that drops for you dependent on your skill level, then you've just added a leveling system, albeit a different looking one, but still a leveling system regardless.

    Other games like Asheron's Call had areas that were only usable by characters of a specific level range. There was a dungeon that needed a team of levels 10-20 characters and a team of level 40+ characters, iirc, in order to complete. Each team had to open gates for the other team while fighting through level appropriate mobs. Super interesting mechanic, and one that could be considered designed to have veteran players interact with new players. Without a simple character level system, entry into those areas is then determined by what? Combat skill level? Now the tool tip has to read something like, usable by characters with combat skill levels between X and Y, vs. just Levels 10-20 only. I imagine the coding behind such a restriction would be come more complex since you'd most likely need to create checks for each individual combat skill vs. just a general character level.

    Additionally, familiarity is a tremendous thing for humans. We're very good at learning new things, but we also tend to not take on multiple new tasks all at once very well. Which is why pretty much any type of training starts with the basics and slowly ramps up to more advanced. A leveling system is a super familiar thing for pretty much any RPG gamer. Making giant, sweeping changes, that make the game basically completely unfamiliar in any way is a good way to turn off a ton of people. ESO is a good example of a game that has a familiar enough system to make people feel comfortable, with also just enough slightly different variations on classic ideas to make the game feel different enough.

    Finally, a leveling system is a clear road to progression. Something else humans love is to have goals and see progress towards those goals. If you enter a game and say, first I want to hit max level, then any subsequent level you earn towards that goal is a little reminder that you're making progress. That's a nice and simple early goal. Once you're max level you can determine your next set of goals, and make those more complex, like specific set of gear, certain achievements, having all of the crafting recipes, etc. Don't discount the absolute focus of hitting max level as your first goal too. Without that, people can become mired in the problem of choice. Too many goals to work on all at once, and not sure which one to do first, is a problem for many people. This also coincides with the idea of starting simple and ramping up as you learn.
    As I said before, you could lock upgrades in hp, stats and similar to achievements easily enough.

    With gear you set a stat requirement like the first Diablo did and you can easily lock drops to that  instead of levels. That means you still need to unlock enough stat points from game activities to use the good stuff but you could focus more on specific stats that way.

    If you must have something that shows you the challenge level of a mob the game could rather easily compare your average DPS and hp with the mobs, it wouldn't be perfect but levelrange comparisions rarely are either.

    As for familiarity, what you say used to be true for MMOs and that a game was similar to Wow was actually a selling point in 2007. 2017 the same thing is not true, people stay shorter time in a game today then back then and while some people say more people play MMOs more then ever I doubt that, if you mentioned MMOs with regular gamers 10 years back most had tried it and didn't mind talking about it. Today it is mainly us old farts that play.

    Finally: a large amount of people indeed think a leveling process is a clear goal but the problem is that the whole thing backfire, because those people tend to quit as soon as they max that out. When you set a single easy goal in front of people far too many wont bother finding new goals, they just consider themselves done with the game and move to the next.

    The huge difference between the average MMO players today and 10 or 20 years ago is the longevity in the same game. If you started to play Wow in 2005 you probably played Wow in 2006 as well (if you stayed longer then a few hours that is some just hate it), same with EQ back in '99. Today the majority is gone after 3 weeks.

    And while the games being still so similar to eachother and using old mechanics that not always work well anymore is hardly the only problem it is a problem.

    Look on pen and paper RPGs, while D&D still is popular and Pathfinder is rather huge the majority of the P&P games (Vampire, Shadowrun, CoC, Cyberpunk, GURPS, BRP among others) use more modern and flexible mechanics instead. Leveless systems there is at least as popular as games with levels.

    Levels in MMOs as a general have turned into a long tutorial, if the genre want to last another 20 years they will need to go or at least change dramatically (a levelsystem like the P&P game R.I.F.T.S could still work). I will not say that the genre is dying or anything but it is slowly losing players and the one we got more often jumps game every month or so.
    Steelhelm