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  • From an old vet ... this looks like the real deal

    Kyleran said:

    Old smoke and mirrors trick. Doesn't matter if they have a list of items to complete, what needs to be added is when do they project each task / all tasks to be done.

    I told Mark long ago I don't care how busy they've been, nor how many tasks remain, tell me when you believe they'll be done.

    For me it's like CSE is in a car, somewhere in Manhattan, and they can tell us where they are exactly, on what avenue, what intersection, etc. And they're live on Periscope showing the traffic and all, the pedestrians, the traffic lights, etc. And they tell us exactly where they're going, somewhere in New Jersey, and what kind of traffic to expect in the streets. They tell us at what time they departed and how long they've been stuck in this traffic jam. They inform us about their average speed, the size of the car, their driving skills, their past experience as taxi/bus drivers, etc. and ask us to check on Google maps to see how long it says it's going to take before getting there. But they don't know at what time exactly they'll arrive to their destination. It depends on so many factors. So instead of bullshitting us and giving us an estimate that isn't reliable, they're waiting until they at least get on the bridge so they'll know that the worse traffic jams are behind them and the estimation is going to be more accurate.

    They surely could do like (almost) every other KS MMO out there: announce dates, miss them, rinse, repeat.
  • From an old vet ... this looks like the real deal

    Kyleran said:

    [...] But going on radio silence for long periods of time, never the right approach, unless you plan on suddenly announcing, great news guys, we'll be launching beta 1 next Tuesday...surprise!

    I think that it's the exact opposite of radio silence. They're allowing us to directly see (and be part of) the progress through updates, newsletters, live streams, Alpha testing, forum posts, etc.

    They even created a page showing extremely detailed information about where they are and what is left to do before we get into Beta 1.

    Also they've recently added a new card for the Dragon Circle:

    "As a Backer, I want to enter a siege scenario, complete objectives, and have the outcome factor into my player's progression."

    All the items from this card so far are marked as completed. 

  • From an old vet ... this looks like the real deal

    Kyleran said:
    Yep, I know full well what happened,  doesn't excuse the lack of a schedule today.
    From what I've seen CSE is terrible at estimating dates. They've missed many of the dates they've announced. (it's not dramatic though, every studio has its weakness, and I prefer that over a lot of other things) Hopefully they will announce a date only when it's 100% sure that they'll make it. Like, after they've entirely implemented and polished every single system of the Beta 1 build. ^^
  • Camelot Unchained - Beta incoming any time soon?

    On the Kickstarter page, I found this:  Estimated delivery of Beta 1 Access: February 2015.  If I am not mistaken (and I often am), CU has not yet entered Beta testing.  Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, I Googled about CU being in Beta and didn't get many clear results.  If they aren't at least in Beta 1, they are 2.5 years late on their original estimate.

    It's the case, but as you pointed out, they're late based on their own original pre-production estimate, rather than "objectively" late. Another comparable project (e.g. Darkfall, which was PvP centric, created by a team about the size of CSE, built their engine from scratch like CSE, etc.) took +10 years in total from the beginning of development to release. So 6-7 years to build something as complex as CU isn't extraordinary long or alarming. It really takes that long to create an innovative MMO with a relatively small team in the west. And it's even longer if the devs don't know what they're doing (fortunately, in our case, Mark is extremely exigent when it comes to hiring the finest developers).

    I fully believe that the developers are working as hard as they can on this game.  I also believe that they drastically underestimated the amount of time it would take to build an engine from scratch and develop the entire game.  What other conclusions can you reasonably draw?  

    Agreed on both counts. It's hard to know exactly if it was 100% genuine estimates  or if they decided to put a date that seemed not too far away so they can reach the KS goal more easily. Only CSE knows I guess. What I know however is that I regularly tell people that I'll do X task in about an hour, and 2 hours later it's still not completed. Not because I'm lazy or I lied, rather because I'm optimistic and plans often don't go exactly as planned. It's even worse when I'm doing something for the first time since it's impossible to estimate accurately based on previous experiences. And it's exactly what happened to CSE: afaik they haven't built an engine previously for a MMO (WAR and DAoC used existent tech if I'm correct), nor built games with such complexity : 1,000 players battle may seem simple when we  think about it, but it's actually the number one most complicated thing to pull off in a video game and nobody achieved it to this day the way CU envisions it. Server-side physics, real-time destruction of structures, moving islands, procedurally-generated environment (that looks good, not just bland boring repetitive trees and rocks), ability system with components, usage-based progression for skills, etc. Nobody created something as complex yet. So it was impossible to know during pre-production how long it would take imo. But they surely could have been less optimistic with their original estimates.

    Considering how much things have been delayed, after giving the developers their money, it's not unreasonable for backers to be concerned or frustrated.  I do believe the game will eventually be released, but if the development pace so far is any indication, it's a long way off.  What CU has working in its benefit is that there are few new, decently funded MMOs in the works to challenge it when it does eventually release.  For this type of experience, what else do we have to look forward to?

    True, and I understand the backers who are frustrated and those who request refunds. And yea it's going to take a long while still. But it's not that bad imo because as you point out there's no real competitors, except maybe unannounced AAA titles but I doubt it. And also because the Betas are going to be a lot of fun in CU, so even if it takes a long time for release, I don't really care, as long as we can have fun sieging, PvPing, crafting, exploring, socializing, etc. during Betas. And it's about to start =) (edit: "the fun" is about to start, Beta idk, but Beta is just an appellation and "late Alpha" can be just as fun).

  • Camelot Unchained - Beta incoming any time soon?

    Realizer said:
     It seems like people forget how long it takes to make a game when you aren't simply modding existing assets sourced elsewhere, versus actually making it from nothing. WoW wasn't made in the 1 year press cycle it had. They worked on it for years before anyone even knew about it. 

     If no one knew about Camelot Unchained till last month and all of a sudden they announced beta within 6 months, no one would say anything about the time it took. 
    CSE decided to put december 2015 as estimated release date when they asked people to fund a portion of the game development. The discontentment comes primarily from that I guess. If they had put december 2019, those who would have backed would have known what to expect from the beginning and we wouldn't even talk about it. If you order a hamburger at the restaurant and the cook says it's going to take 10 minutes, but after 25 minutes you still haven't got it and the cook has been telling you 100 times that "it's coming soon!" [censored the rest of my little story ^_^]