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  • Starting Cities

    svann said:
    I really dont like the idea that any race can freely start out in any city without penalty.  I think that when you do that then people start asking "what is the best city to start in"?  Then the more people that go there the more incentive there is for everyone to go there because thats where all the groups are.

    Would you be happy if you were free to start in any city but with enough of a penalty to disincentivize starter city shopping for the majority of players?
    They already can by creating a character of a different race. If they want to be a different race, they should be able to travel. The game just shouldn't do it for them, because that suggests that what was created for players of that race do not matter, and that it's all generic. In most games it is, but it shouldn't be.
  • Starting Cities

    Amathe said:
    Here is one way to resolve the issue.

    1. Let players start their character out in any city;

    2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

    3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

    4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

    5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

    6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

    No fast travel required. 
    I'll explain why that would have a negative impact on the game, even if it's just a 1 time thing and not a symptom of a bigger problem.

    First, in a virtual world, the player should have to adapt - not the world.

    A proper world has rules, history and lore. The player should ignore them at their own peril. They definitely shouldn't encourage people to bypass that aspect of the game, or people will miss a big part of the narrative created to shape your experience as a player of a certain race, which is meant to connect the player to the world.

    If the lore establishes that a people or collective of people start out in an area, it's up to them to depart on their own and accept the risks. Automatically placing them in a different city contrary to lore, is fast travel.

    In fact, it's more than just fast travel. You want the game to bend multiple rules, including giving you instant access to an area that should be off limits and allowing your first level novice character to fool guards and inhabitants (as well as other players). Now we're not only disregarding lore, but the player is given the false impression that the inhabitants of the world are stupid, that the backstory doesn't matter, all while creating the expectation that concessions will be made when you don't want to play by the rules.

    All this also assumes that this won't lead to other problems down the road, like training, acquisition of new abilities, unique racial quests, faction benefits and other things that may not be available anywhere else.

    I'm sure this of course seems like another extreme assessment or taking you're suggestions out of context, but that's because you've become too accustomed to mmos as they currently exist.
  • Starting Cities

    Amathe said:
    Rhoklaw said:

     Has the world devolved into such an anti-social society that it's now taboo to group with random strangers?
    No, but the world has devolved into misquoting others early and often.

    My simple question about whether and how to accommodate friends who want to start the game together has been misquoted as essentially advocating for:

    1. Instant ports, everywhere, all the time;

    2. No challenging travel, anywhere, ever;

    3. Never group with anyone you don't already know;

    4. No travel waiting time;

    5. Wanting a game like WoW;

    6. EZ mode play;

    7. Dogs and cats, sleeping together; and

    8. The coming of the end of days.

    Oh and I left out a call for communal restrooms.

    But that is so typical of this forum. Misquote someone, accuse them of wanting a WoW clone, then bang on about how uber you are and how uber things were back in the day. 

    if I had posted "Players should be able to drink water," there are posters who would scream "What? You mean just GET water? You should have to earn that water. There should be a quest - no, an epic quest, for your first drink of water. No water until at least level 15. Meanwhile drink mud out of a bootprint. Players today just want water to be easy. Blah, blah, give me a freakin break blah.
    Your issue is not nearly as benign as you portray it. It's that many of us see this issue as a feature, not a defect, and changing something like travel is a serious threat to gameplay.

    Even if it's a one time thing, those types of changes are a slippery slope and a departure from the design ethos necessary for creating a virtual world rather than just another online video game.
  • Starting Cities

    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:

    Maybe because one they can control, the other they can't...
    Clearly some MMO players are obsessed with controlling the actions of their fellows,  hence the opposition to fast travel or open starter cities.

    Oh, that is what you meant, right? ;)
    That's cute, but no I was referring to developers being able to control the level of challenge. They may not be able to keep players from researching out of game to find the easiest path, but that doesn't mean they just throw in the towel for the sake of accessibility.

    Sometimes I think you and DMKano are bipolar. One minute you talk of challenge and you're love of games that had it, but the next you're opposing the very things that created that environment.
  • My Pantheon Dream Come True...

    Wizardry said:
    I don't think i mentioned it so i will now.

    Pvp means classes have to be balanced and that is a bad thing for this genre.I want classes to have an identity and not be built for pvp,i want each class to be good/better at something and not streamlined so to not be op in pvp.

    There is actually no need for 1v1 class balance in a game that is multiplayer, especially one that's massively multiplayer. It's not Street Fighter. A player that is playing a squishy cloth wearing class that heals should have no expectation of defeating a melee dps class. You may argue that such a class be given enough survivability to mitigate damage and escape, but not that they pose a serious threat. The suggestion that rogues or wizards have the ability to heal themselves and others should be disregarded for the same reason.

    Some classes will specialize in killing, while others specialize in keeping others alive or bringing them back from the dead. Some may be a mix of both, but mmorpg PvP should never be about making every class capable of killing, because it will inevitably dilute class roles and harm class interdependence.

    It's understandable to require this in a game with cross-class arenas, but in general, it's completely unnecessary and a waste of time.