Dullahan

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Dullahan
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  • How will Pantheon be for the solo players?

    svann said:
    For those saying VG was easy.
    1. If your goal was to level to max then that was easy.  You could easily find grind camps to do that.
    2. If you wanted more of a challenge then there were always things to do that were tougher if you were willing to take a risk.  Tougher meaning not easy.

    Basically if it was easy for you that just means you werent tackling the harder content.  That's on you.
    That is a strawman. Even WoW has "hard" content. Yet it would be foolish to argue that the game as a whole hasn't been trivialized to the point it's no longer fun for mmorpg enthusiasts.
    jpedrote52svann
  • The many lessons of Agnarr

    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:


    Whereas you had little to nothing worthwhile to fight over in other pvp mmos.
    LOL what? So now the best PVP games are PVE titles with tacked on PVP servers? You just described PVP in every PVE game ever...
    No. PvP in other most other PvE games did not have content entirely uncontested. Even comparing it to DAoC, the vast majority of the PvE was faction locked and uncontested. WoW, unconstested via instancing. The other mmos with PvP either were based entirely around PvP, or the PvE was crap. See your Darkfalls, your Shadowbanes, your Lineage, et al.

    This wasn't to say that EQ was the only game that had enjoyable PvP or contested content, but that the completely open world style of the game made PvP very fun. The game was already highly competitive and the PvE servers were ripe with drama. Allowing PvP in a game full of PvE content and deep player progression was a made it a very unique experience.

    Do try to be a little more factual and less emotional when you post.
    Speaking about being factual DAOC had red servers with FFA open world PVP.

    Alas no more unfortunately.
    You could access opposing faction's dungeons and raid zones? You could go beyond frontiers into their territory? I heard about FFA, but wasn't aware you could fight other factions anywhere in the world.
    Distopia
  • The many lessons of Agnarr

    I disagree with almost everything you said aside from your remarks on boxing, and I'm confident Pantheon will utterly fail should they follow your advice. Why? Because it's exactly why mmos have been failing for over a decade. In a word, convenience and everything that entails, has trivialized your achievements.

    1. No, they do not need instances. You cannot even compare classic EQ or Pantheon to the abomination that is Agnarr. They have upwards of 20k characters (not players) crammed on a single server designed for roughly 2,000, permitted they are spread across all level ranges. More like 1,000 if everyone is around the same level (hence the reason why all content is so heavily contested with only 1k people online on p99).

    Pantheon, like all new MMOs, will be filled with all kinds of players. It will not be primarily hardcores. Those players historically make up a tiny fraction of less than 10% according to figures cited by SOE, Blizzard and other developers I've seen comment on the topic. This will be the case in Pantheon as well.

    Should Pantheon have adequate servers with a proper player to content balance, this will not be an issue. It will mean carefully designing each area with access to the necessary content to progress and itemization that encourages spreading out the population, but it can be done.

    2. Travel in EQ already allowed for almost instantaneous travel. It just didn't allow it organically in the early levels. One had to have access to other characters or an existing relationship with other players to access ports at will. Down the line, that was almost eliminated entirely, and today on EQ you can "dial-a-port" at almost any time of day. That should not be.

    If anything, Pantheon needs to back off on fast travel from EQ. The world must matter. If players are to have a unique experience on each character playing throughout the world, you must encourage them to utilize all the content, especially that which is convenient. Otherwise, you will end up with everyone following a similar path and crowding common areas. It's critical for the very reason discussed in point one (overcrowding/combating the need for instancing).

    Let's get down to brass tacks. Time was your greatest opponent and the factor that made all things feel worthwhile in EQ. Without the time factor, it would not have been EverCrack. Everything was a battle to maximize your gains and minimize time wasted. You had to strive for efficiency if you were to achieve greatness. Otherwise, EQ would have been Rift, WoW, TERA, DDO, Guild Wars, LOTRO, SWTOR and the rest of the games that were played and disposed of shortly thereafter by the vast majority of the people who played them (even if they return every expansion).

    You must respect the time factor.

    Beyond that, the world shrinks significantly when you can go anywhere on a whim. It's just the nature of the beast. From a realism or immersion perspective, every area must matter. To establish "the feel", players need to be, once again, given a reason to go off the beaten path.

    Lastly, boat rides were hardly that extreme. Yes, if you wanted to travel all the way from one side of the map to the other on foot and by boats, it took upwards of an hour - and so it should. Each time you log on, you should be faced with decisions like this. It's all about efficiency and learning to play smart.

    You're in a virtual world (Our World Now!), not a video game where you will always be instantly gratified. In such a place, it's partly up to the player to choose wisely to progress. That means planning. It means communication and coordination with others. Those are the things that made online games gratifying. Otherwise, your achievements are hollow and ultimately feel unimportant. No, that isn't just my opinion! It's bolstered by all the evidence from games that made concessions regarding those aspects of their design.

    3. I do think what we saw in the last stream made boxing look problematic to the point of almost worthless without third party programs. That said, it should be discouraged further. Allowing it as it existed in EQ will be a serious detriment to community health and the quality of interaction in Pantheon.

    Agnarr and virtually all other mmos today are cancerous for a reason. Lets think of the things which led to positive interaction and created an environment where reputation mattered.

    I. Players absolutely needed each other.
    The world was dangerous and punishing. If you died, you lost your body, your experience, and ultimately your time. To retrieve your items and experience, you often needed other people. Darting into a dungeon naked to recover your body was a death wish. You would end up compounding your loss without help.

    There was no boxing to save you in classic EQ. You could not even alt+tab. A tiny subset of players had the capability of multiboxing, let alone the additional computers and internet connection (the days of dial-up) to facilitate it.

    This meant people actually had to rely on each other. A player that offered to lend a helping hand meant the world, because without them you could lose your entire night of playtime. That is exactly how drastic it should be in Pantheon if we want that level of positive interaction and appreciation to exist between fellow players.

    4. The loot system in EQ was perfect in risk (time) versus reward. It should not even be touched. This goes back to time. Reduce the necessary time, you reduce the necessary reward, you reduce playtime, you ultimately reduce the longevity of your game.

    See comments under point 2. See the following threads:
    Discussion 1
    Discussion 2

    5. Again, Agnarr cannot be compared to Pantheon. The players on Agnarr make up a tiny fraction of the population on your average MMO server. As someone who was 50 on EQ live and most other mmos I've played before 95% of the people who played these games, I can tell you that this is not an issue.

    Beyond that, Agnarr is probably about 5% as hard as EQ. That is about how long it takes compared to how long it took during the classic era on live. Put aside the fact that player knowledge is 5000% higher. There is almost no contested content as it existed in EQ, the exp rate is dramatically higher, and the penalties reduced to almost nothing.

    As such, all of these factors funnel everyone into the same spots, looking for the same items and stuck in the same level ranges. The normal curve that would exist on a normal server, especially in a new game, would be entirely different.

    6. Agnarr is an abomination for all of the reasons stated in 6, and it's the antithesis of the design tenets of EQ, and everything that made it glorious. See above references to time and the danger of convenience above.

    7. Instancing is cancer. Placing 10x the capacity of a server into one server is not at all representative of how things existed in EQ live, nor how it would work in Pantheon.

    Furthermore, there are many, many viable solutions to counter the problems that exist both on Agnarr, as well as EQ historically. I would copy paste everything here, but this post is already running long.

    Exhibit A.
    Exhibit B.

    Instancing is lazy.

    XodicKyleranGdemamiDistopiadeniterNycteliosWellspringHawkaya399Scummholdenfiveand 3 others.
  • The biggest problem isn't the story, voice acting or the actual game mechanics

    Animations are a pretty big part of connecting one to their character, but I still think most people would overlook that if the rest of the game was good.

    The real reason people don't play mmos anymore is because they aren't massively multiplayer.
    deniterAgent_JosephLucienRene
  • Black Desert Online now has over 28K players on STEAM

    What's the over under on peak this weekend being lower than last?
    maybebakedMadFrenchie