Originally posted by Torak Could you please name me some of the fantastic western games that are so much better??? As I said a few post up, none of them are up to par...western or Asian.
Better? What's better is subjective, naturally, but I've yet to play a Korean MMORPG that has deviated from the EQ1 style of game mechanics. Grind, lose xp when you die, rinse repeat...feel free to name me some that don't follow that model and I'll give them a shot. Even a so-called "different" game like Maple Story, is essentially the same thing.
But if you want a pissing competition, who am I to interfere with your thrill-seeking?
EVE - name me a Korean game that's like it? Has its depth? Has the player-created political set-up? I'm no fan of EVE; I think it's an interstellar version of MS Excel with graphics, but I can see its innovative nature. I can see why it'd attract the fan base it does.
UO - ditto - few games, even as of August 2006, has as much depth. A Tale in Desert - few things out there, if any, that are like it There - ditto Second Life - ditto Roma Victor - ditto
Some of the above games I've mentioned aren't my idea of fun, but each of them have broken moulds or tried their darnedest to do so.
EQ1 - set the trend for the grind/xp loss upon death cycle that the Koreans have copied and emulated till it's sickening. Sadly, EQ1 still does it better. There's something compelling about EQ1 that L2 and SRO and its duplicates don't have. The biggest thing is that they are nowhere near as much fun. That's it, really.
You'll never convince me that Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1. Whether anyone agrees with me is neither here nor there. It's an opinion forged by years of observing and playing.
The only one that I feel still has real potential (there's that word again) is Silkroad Online. It could, with a little bit of work, become a world-beater. At the moment, it's a gorgeous looking wannabe set in an intriguing period of history relatively untouched by video gaming. But at the moment, it's a me-too grindfest that gets old fast.
Well Ulujain it might surprise you but I more or less agree with you.
You hit the core of the problem right on the head
" You'll never convince me that Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1"
Only I would go so far as to say it like this...
"You'll never convince me that ALL MMORPG's are nothing more then pallid knock-offs of EQ1."
You examples where noble attempts at being something different but none ever really hit it off. Oh well.
I am surprised that you brought up Silkroad. I have it on my drive and I also agree with you on your opinion of it. It just needs that little spark. I am very surprised at the quality of of Silkroad to be honest. Unfortunately it falls into the grinder mode but I haven't been able to get past level 10 because my times I have to play the servers are all full. The community isn't bad either but then again, Im back playing WoW and thats a tough game to beat for rotten communities.
For the most part I've found most MMORPGs to be very similar. Korean or western. Whether you're killing blobs in Ragnarok Online over and over and over or kiling wolves in WoW or killing goblins in FFXI or ratting in 0.0 belts in Eve there's grind. All of these games lock new players out of most of the game and require a lot of unfun stuff to get to the fun stuff. And why? So people will know how to play their characters? All utter bullcrap in my opinion.
Originally posted by nomadian Ignoring all the Lineage2 fanboys, there are qualities of Asian mmorpgs that do give them a badname;- Point to click, anime graphics, intensive grind, potion-happy, bad translations. Thats not to say, they can't have some good releases, because they can and do. For example, GunzOnline, Warrock, and FFXI. Yes ok Gunzonline and Warrock aren't strictly mmos, or maybe not at all but they are very good albeit full of certain problems(lag).
Yeah, cause we all know we'd all rather be like EQ1/2 sitting on our asses regen for minutes on end, instead of chugging a potions. Also no one really likes Point and Click right? Becuase nomadian thinks it's something wrong with PNC games he has to be right. Right?!? We also all know thank's to nomadian that we all prefer SUPER realistic graphics.
Heaven forbid that we have different preferences. I guess we don't need them, when we have such great people as nomadian. Telling us what's wrong with games we like. What was I thinking... having personal taste and opinons on games. I must have been out of my mind.
Thank you nomadian. Your lame ass opinion spouted off as fact. Has made me see the light.
Originally posted by Ulujain Originally posted by Torak Could you please name me some of the fantastic western games that are so much better??? As I said a few post up, none of them are up to par...western or Asian.
Better? What's better is subjective, naturally, but I've yet to play a Korean MMORPG that has deviated from the EQ1 style of game mechanics. Grind, lose xp when you die, rinse repeat...feel free to name me some that don't follow that model and I'll give them a shot. Even a so-called "different" game like Maple Story, is essentially the same thing.
But if you want a pissing competition, who am I to interfere with your thrill-seeking?
EVE - name me a Korean game that's like it? Has its depth? Has the player-created political set-up? I'm no fan of EVE; I think it's an interstellar version of MS Excel with graphics, but I can see its innovative nature. I can see why it'd attract the fan base it does.
UO - ditto - few games, even as of August 2006, has as much depth. A Tale in Desert - few things out there, if any, that are like it There - ditto Second Life - ditto Roma Victor - ditto
Some of the above games I've mentioned aren't my idea of fun, but each of them have broken moulds or tried their darnedest to do so.
EQ1 - set the trend for the grind/xp loss upon death cycle that the Koreans have copied and emulated till it's sickening. Sadly, EQ1 still does it better. There's something compelling about EQ1 that L2 and SRO and its duplicates don't have. The biggest thing is that they are nowhere near as much fun. That's it, really.
You'll never convince me that Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1. Whether anyone agrees with me is neither here nor there. It's an opinion forged by years of observing and playing.
The only one that I feel still has real potential (there's that word again) is Silkroad Online. It could, with a little bit of work, become a world-beater. At the moment, it's a gorgeous looking wannabe set in an intriguing period of history relatively untouched by video gaming. But at the moment, it's a me-too grindfest that gets old fast.
Eve-Online deep? Think you better toss that subjective pile as well. We can argue over whether its deep all day long, that still wouldn't make Eve-Online fun at least to me.
EQ1, actually didn't set the trend for xp loss/death/grind.
Roma Victor - Not sure why this is even on your list. Do you know someone that has actually played it? Because I sure dont, considering it's not even released yet.
UO - I'll give you this one, any half way decent skill based game is better then a level based one. Comparing a level based game to a skill based one isn't really fair though. It's like playing basket ball with a retarded kid, then calling double dribble. Skill Based Games > Level Based Games.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by nomadian Ignoring all the Lineage2 fanboys, there are qualities of Asian mmorpgs that do give them a badname;- Point to click, anime graphics, intensive grind, potion-happy, bad translations. Thats not to say, they can't have some good releases, because they can and do. For example, GunzOnline, Warrock, and FFXI. Yes ok Gunzonline and Warrock aren't strictly mmos, or maybe not at all but they are very good albeit full of certain problems(lag).
Yeah, cause we all know we'd all rather be like EQ1/2 sitting on our asses regen for minutes on end, instead of chugging a potions. Also no one really likes Point and Click right? Becuase nomadian thinks it's something wrong with PNC games he has to be right. Right?!? We also all know thank's to nomadian that we all prefer SUPER realistic graphics.
I'm saying the style preference is generally different with Asian and Western gamers. As testament to that, an Asian mmorpg recently changed its point 'n' click system to the conventional keyboard control because of feedback and because of knowledge this is a Western preference. Sure you might like it, but it's not very popular here. Also "super realistic" graphics, nice exaggeration but have a look at the graphics preference of the Asians and the Westerners which is reflected in the games made. Again you might like it, but according to the style of most Western mmorpgs it isn't so popular. Edit: I'll revert my statement 'they don't give them a badname' well the grind, and bad translations do, but the qualities put Western gamers off like me and many others as the Asian and Western tastes are quite different. But yeah there are people like Mr. Attitude who do like these types of games.
Heaven forbid that we have different preferences. I guess we don't need them, when we have such great people as nomadian. Telling us what's wrong with games we like. What was I thinking... having personal taste and opinons on games. I must have been out of my mind.
Originally posted by Roin Eve-Online deep? Think you better toss that subjective pile as well. We can argue over whether its deep all day long, that still wouldn't make Eve-Online fun at least to me.EQ1, actually didn't set the trend for xp loss/death/grind. Roma Victor - Not sure why this is even on your list. Do you know someone that has actually played it? Because I sure dont, considering it's not even released yet.UO - I'll give you this one, any half way decent skill based game is better then a level based one. Comparing a level based game to a skill based one isn't really fair though. It's like playing basket ball with a retarded kid, then calling double dribble. Skill Based Games > Level Based Games.
Who said was EVE was fun? Not me. It definitely breaks moulds though, which is the point I'm making. Sailed right over your head though. Nothing like any Korean game you know, is it...nah, don't even bother answering it, you're not even on the same page.
EQ1 did set the trend. It's the game everyone else wants to be like. The MUDs, M59 and all the other crap that came before seriously doesn't count. The MMORPG as we know it was born the day EQ1 went live.
Roma Victor was released July 14. Though if you read its forums, what "released" means is variable.
You *did* know I was talking about games that aren't like Korean ones, right? On the same page yet?
Originally posted by nomadian Ignoring all the Lineage2 fanboys, there are qualities of Asian mmorpgs that do give them a badname;- Point to click, anime graphics, intensive grind, potion-happy, bad translations. Thats not to say, they can't have some good releases, because they can and do. For example, GunzOnline, Warrock, and FFXI. Yes ok Gunzonline and Warrock aren't strictly mmos, or maybe not at all but they are very good albeit full of certain problems(lag).
Yeah, cause we all know we'd all rather be like EQ1/2 sitting on our asses regen for minutes on end, instead of chugging a potions. Also no one really likes Point and Click right? Becuase nomadian thinks it's something wrong with PNC games he has to be right. Right?!? We also all know thank's to nomadian that we all prefer SUPER realistic graphics.
I'm saying the style preference is generally different with Asian and Western gamers. As testament to that, an Asian mmorpg recently changed its point 'n' click system to the conventional keyboard control because of feedback and because of knowledge this is a Western preference. Sure you might like it, but it's not very popular here. Also "super realistic" graphics, nice exaggeration but have a look at the graphics preference of the Asians and the Westerners which is reflected in the games made. Again you might like it, but according to the style of most Western mmorpgs it isn't so popular. Edit: I'll revert my statement 'they don't give them a badname' well the grind, and bad translations do, but the qualities put Western gamers off like me and many others as the Asian and Western tastes are quite different. But yeah there are people like Mr. Attitude who do like these types of games.
Heaven forbid that we have different preferences. I guess we don't need them, when we have such great people as nomadian. Telling us what's wrong with games we like. What was I thinking... having personal taste and opinons on games. I must have been out of my mind.
What an attitude.
I hate to double quote; but Damn dude your suppose to speak out of your mouth, not your ass.
"nice exaggeration but have a look at the graphics preference of the Asians and the Westerners which is reflected in the games made. Again you might like it, but according to the style of most Western mmorpgs it isn't so popular."
What is the number 1 mmo right now? Worlds of Warcraft. Ever notice how it was cartoony; and as we all know the difference between cartoony and anime is how you draw a line. The number 2 is Lineage...
Hyper-realistic graphics are overrated. It's obvious world wide that people don't like roleplaying real-life in games. Its suppose to be a fantasy, and the graphics are a representation of it.
Also on the translation staffs. The top Korean companies have a translation department. Sure the new ones from companies who have only marketed in Korea still have engrish translations. But you won't find mis-translations from Webzen, NCSoft, HanbitSoft, or Gravity. Because they have a large translation staff on hand.
I play many MMOs and all of them are Asian except two: World of Warcraft and Dark Ages.
I like customizing my character's stats.
I LIKE point and click movement.
I abhor grind, but I love the fun that comes with meeting people in that grind.
But most of all, I love the endgame content.
Asian MMOs are all about the endgame content. There's usually a long ass grind that forces you to make friends, and then some kilelr endgame content, like Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online castle sieges. I love that stuff.
What is the number 1 mmo right now? Worlds of Warcraft. Ever notice how it was cartoony;
Anime and WoW style are completely different.
and as we all know the difference between cartoony and anime is how you draw a line.
Really?
The number 2 is Lineage...
In the West? Didn't lineage get 7k subscribers in the US?
Hyper-realistic graphics are overrated. It's obvious world wide that people don't like roleplaying real-life in games. Its suppose to be a fantasy, and the graphics are a representation of it.
Tthis is just your opinion. And who says anything about hyper-realistic graphics? Take the graphics of EQ they weren't hyper-realistic they were a mature fantasy style. And again why is not anime got to mean 'hyper-realistic'. Games like Oblivion, Shadows of Colleseum, Tomb Raider all have their style without being hyper-realistic and are popular.
Also on the translation staffs. The top Korean companies have a translation department. Sure the new ones from companies who have only marketed in Korea still have engrish translations. But you won't find mis-translations from Webzen, NCSoft, HanbitSoft, or Gravity. Because they have a large translation staff on hand.
When I said bad translations, I didn't automatically mean every single fecking Asian mmorpg that has been translated. I'm saying there are a number of them with bad translations.
Eve-Online deep? Think you better toss that subjective pile as well. We can argue over whether its deep all day long, that still wouldn't make Eve-Online fun at least to me.EQ1, actually didn't set the trend for xp loss/death/grind. Roma Victor - Not sure why this is even on your list. Do you know someone that has actually played it? Because I sure dont, considering it's not even released yet.UO - I'll give you this one, any half way decent skill based game is better then a level based one. Comparing a level based game to a skill based one isn't really fair though. It's like playing basket ball with a retarded kid, then calling double dribble. Skill Based Games > Level Based Games.
Who said was EVE was fun? Not me. It definitely breaks moulds though, which is the point I'm making. Sailed right over your head though. Nothing like any Korean game you know, is it...nah, don't even bother answering it, you're not even on the same page.
EQ1 did set the trend. It's the game everyone else wants to be like. The MUDs, M59 and all the other crap that came before seriously doesn't count. The MMORPG as we know it was born the day EQ1 went live.
Roma Victor was released July 14. Though if you read its forums, what "released" means is variable.
You *did* know I was talking about games that aren't like Korean ones, right? On the same page yet?
Think you better pump your brakes friend. Notice I said "fun to me". As for breaking molds. Not to sure what mold you think Eve-Online broke.
Muds, M59, and the other games that came before EQ1 do count. Where do you think the more basic of EQ1's mechanics came from? That's right M59 and D&D.
As for Roma Victor, didn't notice it was released already. From all the bad forums I read on it in last 5 mins I can understand why.
As for your last comment. Really? Wow, I replied to your post, without reading it first. /sarcasm Yes smartass I read your post, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to reply to it.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Ohh well looks like I won't change your opinion on Korean MMOs. Just remember I like them and I think the majority of what you said is made out of a limited scope of Korean MMOs. Also you didn't change my opinion at all or "won" the argument in any form. Its just that we are on 2 different sides of an opinion and we obviously aren't going to agree on it. Even if I use numbers to back up my claims there is always another way to counter-argue and its a never ending cycle.
On that Cartoon and Line thing. Here was where I was going with that. There are 3 main styles of comic book art (since most people use Comic art for a video game over cartoons because they are more detailed). There is the American Style, the style is defined by Marvel and DC. There is the European Style, this is characterized by Fairy Tale Art. Hero's Journey and Chronicles of Spellborn will be using this style. Then Manwa, or Korean Comic Art seen in many concepts for Korean MMO's. Manga, or japanese comic style isn't used as much as Manwa because of how few mmo's Japan Produces, its still in thier consoles.
Now where this leads to. The Chronicles of Spellborn outline this well. For the most part all these styles borrow upon realism. So at the core they are pretty much all the same. However, there is a difference in proportion and how the lines are drawn. I will just put it into generalizations. American style usually has larger muscle proportion, and people are usually have tone muscles. Also alot of the features look chiseled in like cheeks and jaws. Aside from that American style is the most realistic. On the other side, is the European style which usually has odd proportions and the characters are more characture. They also usually consist of less lines and definition. Manwa is really an inbetween of these 2 extremes. Everyone isn't tone and muscular. There is also a little wonkiness in proportions.
BTW you will always get me, gameloading, and Roin in topics saying "Korean MMO's SUCK" because we like Korean MMOs and I think that most Western MMO's suck for many reasons. There are only a few exceptions.
Well, having tried quite a few Korean MMOs, I've yet to find one I enjoy. Can you Korean MMO fans recommend anything out there that you think is a quality game (free or p2p)? And what features of said game make it stand out?
I recommend Lineage 2. what makes the game stand out are its raids and PVP. the raids in Lineage 2 are HUGE and are without a doubt the best raids of any mmorpg. that, combined with Lineage 2's clan politics makes it an excellent game. the game has a long grind, and it takes a while before the game really "starts", and if your more of the lone wolf then this isn't a game for you. another one to recommend is Ragnarok Online. what makes RO special? thats really hard to discribe in words. you should play it (there is a 14 day free trial) and then decide if you enjoy it or not.
Agreed. I played 3 western MMO's, so it is a good indication that EVE online and Auto Assault are the exact same like Tibia and Runescape...
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Ohh well looks like I won't change your opinion on Korean MMOs. Just remember I like them and I think the majority of what you said is made out of a limited scope of Korean MMOs.
I am actually playing a Korean mmo at the moment so I'm not along the lines of they suck. But I'm just saying there are certain qualities which aren't so popular here because of the style preferences.
Originally posted by Gameloading Agreed. I played 3 western MMO's, so it is a good indication that EVE online and Auto Assault are the exact same like Tibia and Runescape...
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Actually the european and american market are EXACTLY the same when it comes to mmorpg's. Its not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in europe as in the United states. It is not coincidence that the few mmorpg's created in europe are in many ways VERY similiar to the american MMO's. maybe YOU should do your research a little better. when people talk about the western market, europe is usually included. so next time, do your research on mmo's and the mmorpg market a little better before you post things like that. thanks.
Originally posted by Tonkatsu Well, having tried quite a few Korean MMOs, I've yet to find one I enjoy. Can you Korean MMO fans recommend anything out there that you think is a quality game (free or p2p)? And what features of said game make it stand out?
My personal favorite right now is Granado Espada. Granado Espada
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Roin Originally posted by Ulujain Think you better pump your brakes friend. Notice I said "fun to me". As for breaking molds. Not to sure what mold you think Eve-Online broke.Muds, M59, and the other games that came before EQ1 do count. Where do you think the more basic of EQ1's mechanics came from? That's right M59 and D&D.As for Roma Victor, didn't notice it was released already. From all the bad forums I read on it in last 5 mins I can understand why. As for your last comment. Really? Wow, I replied to your post, without reading it first. /sarcasm Yes smartass I read your post, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to reply to it.
The fact that you replied to anything doesn't mean you read and understood jack shit. I can click reply to anything too and post a bunch of random white noise.
M59's and the rest don't count. The average MMORPG's punters life started the day EQ1 went live. It's an inevitable and inescapable fact I suggest you wrap yourself around and deal with.
You thought Roma Victor hadn't been released yet, where 30 seconds of research would've given you a clue.
So, what else are you going to get wrong today?
But, because I'm a persistent prick, let me ask for the third time: what Korean game can you name that is like EVE?
There isn't, because a game like EVE simply wouldn't do well in Korea. it doesn't fit the gaming style of the koreans.
Was EVE an example to prove the western "orginality"?
Do WE have sidescroll mmorpg's? do WE have mmorpg's that have turn based combat/ console RPG style? do WE have MMORPG's of about every sport that exists? do WE have mmorpg's about cars and racing?
in reply to the main topic, There are many more Asia based companies producing low-budget mmorpgs that barely make it past the beta stage. To say that Korean MMO's "suck" is stupid. Different regions of the world have different popular games, for example Halo was a big success in the US,UK and Australia while the Final Fantasy Series was a big success in Asian Cultures around the world. This may seem like a generalisation but its true. The style of a game will always depend on the culture and background of the game developers.
Yes it is true that many Asian mmorpgs truely are bad, but there are also many that truely impressive games. The same goes for the "western" mmorpgs also. although there are somewhat fewer mmorpgs released in the west, they are mostly by big name developers with alot of cash to put into the game.
So some mmorpgs suck and some dont, there are just more korean mmorpgs out there than others and saying they all suck would be very biased.
Originally posted by Tonkatsu Well, having tried quite a few Korean MMOs, I've yet to find one I enjoy. Can you Korean MMO fans recommend anything out there that you think is a quality game (free or p2p)? And what features of said game make it stand out?
Ragnarok Online - Great community, if you play on the euRO client. My favorite game. It has INSANE character customization, 12 different final classes that are all very well balanced, with several different stat and skill builds for each. Like you can have a Bow/Strip Stalker, an Intimidate/Bow Stalker, an Intimidate/Strip Stalker, or a Backstab/Strip Stalker. That's just the skill build. You can go Int/Dex, Dex/Vit, Str/Agi, Str/Vit for stat builds...it's great. You never know what kind of character you'll be facing. It also has castle sieges twice a week, in pretty much the same vein as Lineage II. You get to the center of the castle and break the magic jewel, and you win the castle. Hundreds of people compete every siege. Once again, it's generally agreed that the euRO server has the best sieges. If you join euRO Chaos I can hook you up with some powerleveling and gear. Also, the graphics are unlike any other game out there -- they're a mix of 2D sprite characters in a 3D world, and it runs well on low end computers.
Flyff - This game is just cool. It looks like your pretty standard Korean MMO fare, but with some differences:
1. You can fly. 2. PVP servers. 3. The grind isn't too bad. 4. It's free. 5. You can fly.
That sums it up pretty well.
Final Fantasy XI - This is the best PvM game you will ever play. Period. Screw 40 man raids, we have 70 man raids. Grouping is forced from level 10 on up. Party play is basically mandatory. If you want to play with other people, if you complain about never being able to find parties, PLAY THIS GAME and your problems are solved. The community is also great, mainly because of the Japanese. They make sure that lamers get a bad reputation overnight, so there's absolutely NO "money plz" netspeakers with broken caps lock keys. Even at low levels. There's also a weird kind of capture the flag event for people who enjoy a little PvP on the side.
Silkroad Online - This game is like the EVE of Asian MMOs. It's truly unique and groundbreaking because it has totally different goals than conventional MMOs. You can be either a trader, a hunter, or a thief. Your goal is to get rich. Traders make trade runs across the silk road, and when they finish, they get money for their goods. Thieves try to steal the traders' goods along the way. Hunters protect the traders from thieves and get paid for their services. Seriously, have you ever heard of an MMO like that? It's AWESOME.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by vortigen7
Originally posted by Gameloading Agreed. I played 3 western MMO's, so it is a good indication that EVE online and Auto Assault are the exact same like Tibia and Runescape...
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Actually the european and american market are EXACTLY the same when it comes to mmorpg's. Its not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in europe as in the United states. It is not coincidence that the few mmorpg's created in europe are in many ways VERY similiar to the american MMO's. maybe YOU should do your research a little better. when people talk about the western market, europe is usually included. so next time, do your research on mmo's and the mmorpg market a little better before you post things like that. thanks.
Surely you do not actually believe that European and American markets are EXACTLY the same, as you put it, do you? Saga of Ryzom for example, is a French game, but it is quite similar to the Asian style of gameplay. In some ways you might actually say that it's a merge between the Asian graphics style and western controls. Yet, simply because some people in America choose to play it, does it now mean that it's a "western" style of game? No.
Secondly, your comment about saying "It's not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in Europe as in the United States" is completely illogical. By your own admission, you play Korean games, and so they are popular with you and others in the US. So because they may have some populartity in the US, does this now mean that Korean games are now "westernized"? Duh...I don't think so, because if they were there would be no such thing as western/Asian market distinctions. There are easily identifiable distinctions between the market these games were designed for. The logic you use to say that the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in Europe and the US is completely misplaced, because an items popularity in a country outside of its origin country does not change the origin of the game, nor it's intended market. If you find Korean mmo's to be popular you are just playing a game that was designed for a different market, but you have not westernized it simply by the playing of it. It is, and will remain, a Korean game designed for an Asian market.
So now, in addition to doing research, start using some common sense and think before you write.
Comments
Better? What's better is subjective, naturally, but I've yet to play a Korean MMORPG that has deviated from the EQ1 style of game mechanics. Grind, lose xp when you die, rinse repeat...feel free to name me some that don't follow that model and I'll give them a shot. Even a so-called "different" game like Maple Story, is essentially the same thing.
But if you want a pissing competition, who am I to interfere with your thrill-seeking?
EVE - name me a Korean game that's like it? Has its depth? Has the player-created political set-up? I'm no fan of EVE; I think it's an interstellar version of MS Excel with graphics, but I can see its innovative nature. I can see why it'd attract the fan base it does.
UO - ditto - few games, even as of August 2006, has as much depth.
A Tale in Desert - few things out there, if any, that are like it
There - ditto
Second Life - ditto
Roma Victor - ditto
Some of the above games I've mentioned aren't my idea of fun, but each of them have broken moulds or tried their darnedest to do so.
EQ1 - set the trend for the grind/xp loss upon death cycle that the Koreans have copied and emulated till it's sickening. Sadly, EQ1 still does it better. There's something compelling about EQ1 that L2 and SRO and its duplicates don't have. The biggest thing is that they are nowhere near as much fun. That's it, really.
You'll never convince me that Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1. Whether anyone agrees with me is neither here nor there. It's an opinion forged by years of observing and playing.
The only one that I feel still has real potential (there's that word again) is Silkroad Online. It could, with a little bit of work, become a world-beater. At the moment, it's a gorgeous looking wannabe set in an intriguing period of history relatively untouched by video gaming. But at the moment, it's a me-too grindfest that gets old fast.
Well Ulujain it might surprise you but I more or less agree with you.
You hit the core of the problem right on the head
" You'll never convince me that Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1"
Only I would go so far as to say it like this...
"You'll never convince me that ALL MMORPG's are nothing more then pallid knock-offs of EQ1."
You examples where noble attempts at being something different but none ever really hit it off. Oh well.
I am surprised that you brought up Silkroad. I have it on my drive and I also agree with you on your opinion of it. It just needs that little spark.
I am very surprised at the quality of of Silkroad to be honest. Unfortunately it falls into the grinder mode but I haven't been able to get past level 10 because my times I have to play the servers are all full. The community isn't bad either but then again, Im back playing WoW and thats a tough game to beat for rotten communities.
I gotta get around to trying out EVE one day.
Give me a game with no grind.
Heaven forbid that we have different preferences. I guess we don't need them, when we have such great people as nomadian. Telling us what's wrong with games we like. What was I thinking... having personal taste and opinons on games. I must have been out of my mind.
Thank you nomadian. Your lame ass opinion spouted off as fact. Has made me see the light.
Better?
What's better is subjective, naturally, but I've yet to play a Korean
MMORPG that has deviated from the EQ1 style of game mechanics. Grind,
lose xp when you die, rinse repeat...feel free to name me some that
don't follow that model and I'll give them a shot. Even a so-called
"different" game like Maple Story, is essentially the same thing.
But if you want a pissing competition, who am I to interfere with your thrill-seeking?
EVE
- name me a Korean game that's like it? Has its depth? Has the
player-created political set-up? I'm no fan of EVE; I think it's an
interstellar version of MS Excel with graphics, but I can see its
innovative nature. I can see why it'd attract the fan base it does.
UO - ditto - few games, even as of August 2006, has as much depth.
A Tale in Desert - few things out there, if any, that are like it
There - ditto
Second Life - ditto
Roma Victor - ditto
Some
of the above games I've mentioned aren't my idea of fun, but each of
them have broken moulds or tried their darnedest to do so.
EQ1 -
set the trend for the grind/xp loss upon death cycle that the Koreans
have copied and emulated till it's sickening. Sadly, EQ1 still does it
better. There's something compelling about EQ1 that L2 and SRO and its
duplicates don't have. The biggest thing is that they are nowhere near
as much fun. That's it, really.
You'll never convince me that
Korean MMORPG's are anything more than pallid knock-off's of EQ1.
Whether anyone agrees with me is neither here nor there. It's an
opinion forged by years of observing and playing.
The only one
that I feel still has real potential (there's that word again) is
Silkroad Online. It could, with a little bit of work, become a
world-beater. At the moment, it's a gorgeous looking wannabe set in an
intriguing period of history relatively untouched by video gaming. But
at the moment, it's a me-too grindfest that gets old fast.
Eve-Online deep? Think you better toss that subjective pile as well. We can argue over whether its deep all day long, that still wouldn't make Eve-Online fun at least to me.
EQ1, actually didn't set the trend for xp loss/death/grind.
Roma Victor - Not sure why this is even on your list. Do you know someone that has actually played it? Because I sure dont, considering it's not even released yet.
UO - I'll give you this one, any half way decent skill based game is better then a level based one. Comparing a level based game to a skill based one isn't really fair though. It's like playing basket ball with a retarded kid, then calling double dribble. Skill Based Games > Level Based Games.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Edit: I'll revert my statement 'they don't give them a badname' well the grind, and bad translations do, but the qualities put Western gamers off like me and many others as the Asian and Western tastes are quite different. But yeah there are people like Mr. Attitude who do like these types of games.
Who said was EVE was fun? Not me. It definitely breaks moulds though, which is the point I'm making. Sailed right over your head though. Nothing like any Korean game you know, is it...nah, don't even bother answering it, you're not even on the same page.
EQ1 did set the trend. It's the game everyone else wants to be like. The MUDs, M59 and all the other crap that came before seriously doesn't count. The MMORPG as we know it was born the day EQ1 went live.
Roma Victor was released July 14. Though if you read its forums, what "released" means is variable.
You *did* know I was talking about games that aren't like Korean ones, right? On the same page yet?
Edit: I'll revert my statement 'they don't give them a badname' well the grind, and bad translations do, but the qualities put Western gamers off like me and many others as the Asian and Western tastes are quite different. But yeah there are people like Mr. Attitude who do like these types of games.
I hate to double quote; but Damn dude your suppose to speak out of your mouth, not your ass.
"nice exaggeration but have a look at the graphics preference of the Asians and the Westerners which is reflected in the games made. Again you might like it, but according to the style of most Western mmorpgs it isn't so popular."
What is the number 1 mmo right now? Worlds of Warcraft. Ever notice how it was cartoony; and as we all know the difference between cartoony and anime is how you draw a line. The number 2 is Lineage...
Seriously, do some research Population Statistics.
Hyper-realistic graphics are overrated. It's obvious world wide that people don't like roleplaying real-life in games. Its suppose to be a fantasy, and the graphics are a representation of it.
Also on the translation staffs. The top Korean companies have a translation department. Sure the new ones from companies who have only marketed in Korea still have engrish translations. But you won't find mis-translations from Webzen, NCSoft, HanbitSoft, or Gravity. Because they have a large translation staff on hand.
I play many MMOs and all of them are Asian except two: World of Warcraft and Dark Ages.
I like customizing my character's stats.
I LIKE point and click movement.
I abhor grind, but I love the fun that comes with meeting people in that grind.
But most of all, I love the endgame content.
Asian MMOs are all about the endgame content. There's usually a long ass grind that forces you to make friends, and then some kilelr endgame content, like Lineage 2 and Ragnarok Online castle sieges. I love that stuff.
Really?
In the West? Didn't lineage get 7k subscribers in the US?Tthis is just your opinion. And who says anything about hyper-realistic graphics? Take the graphics of EQ they weren't hyper-realistic they were a mature fantasy style. And again why is not anime got to mean 'hyper-realistic'. Games like Oblivion, Shadows of Colleseum, Tomb Raider all have their style without being hyper-realistic and are popular.
When I said bad translations, I didn't automatically mean every single fecking Asian mmorpg that has been translated. I'm saying there are a number of them with bad translations.Who said was EVE was fun? Not me. It definitely breaks moulds though, which is the point I'm making. Sailed right over your head though. Nothing like any Korean game you know, is it...nah, don't even bother answering it, you're not even on the same page.
EQ1 did set the trend. It's the game everyone else wants to be like. The MUDs, M59 and all the other crap that came before seriously doesn't count. The MMORPG as we know it was born the day EQ1 went live.
Roma Victor was released July 14. Though if you read its forums, what "released" means is variable.
You *did* know I was talking about games that aren't like Korean ones, right? On the same page yet?
Think you better pump your brakes friend. Notice I said "fun to me". As for breaking molds. Not to sure what mold you think Eve-Online broke.
Muds, M59, and the other games that came before EQ1 do count. Where do you think the more basic of EQ1's mechanics came from? That's right M59 and D&D.
As for Roma Victor, didn't notice it was released already. From all the bad forums I read on it in last 5 mins I can understand why.
As for your last comment. Really? Wow, I replied to your post, without reading it first. /sarcasm
Yes smartass I read your post, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to reply to it.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Ohh well looks like I won't change your opinion on Korean MMOs. Just remember I like them and I think the majority of what you said is made out of a limited scope of Korean MMOs. Also you didn't change my opinion at all or "won" the argument in any form. Its just that we are on 2 different sides of an opinion and we obviously aren't going to agree on it. Even if I use numbers to back up my claims there is always another way to counter-argue and its a never ending cycle.
On that Cartoon and Line thing. Here was where I was going with that. There are 3 main styles of comic book art (since most people use Comic art for a video game over cartoons because they are more detailed). There is the American Style, the style is defined by Marvel and DC. There is the European Style, this is characterized by Fairy Tale Art. Hero's Journey and Chronicles of Spellborn will be using this style. Then Manwa, or Korean Comic Art seen in many concepts for Korean MMO's. Manga, or japanese comic style isn't used as much as Manwa because of how few mmo's Japan Produces, its still in thier consoles.
Now where this leads to. The Chronicles of Spellborn outline this well. For the most part all these styles borrow upon realism. So at the core they are pretty much all the same. However, there is a difference in proportion and how the lines are drawn. I will just put it into generalizations. American style usually has larger muscle proportion, and people are usually have tone muscles. Also alot of the features look chiseled in like cheeks and jaws. Aside from that American style is the most realistic. On the other side, is the European style which usually has odd proportions and the characters are more characture. They also usually consist of less lines and definition. Manwa is really an inbetween of these 2 extremes. Everyone isn't tone and muscular. There is also a little wonkiness in proportions.
BTW you will always get me, gameloading, and Roin in topics saying "Korean MMO's SUCK" because we like Korean MMOs and I think that most Western MMO's suck for many reasons. There are only a few exceptions.
I recommend Lineage 2. what makes the game stand out are its raids and PVP. the raids in Lineage 2 are HUGE and are without a doubt the best raids of any mmorpg. that, combined with Lineage 2's clan politics makes it an excellent game. the game has a long grind, and it takes a while before the game really "starts", and if your more of the lone wolf then this isn't a game for you. another one to recommend is Ragnarok Online. what makes RO special? thats really hard to discribe in words. you should play it (there is a 14 day free trial) and then decide if you enjoy it or not.
When will westerners who make and support these threads stop being ignorant?
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Actually the european and american market are EXACTLY the same when it comes to mmorpg's.
Its not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in europe as in the United states.
It is not coincidence that the few mmorpg's created in europe are in many ways VERY similiar to the american MMO's.
maybe YOU should do your research a little better. when people talk about the western market, europe is usually included.
so next time, do your research on mmo's and the mmorpg market a little better before you post things like that. thanks.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
The fact that you replied to anything doesn't mean you read and understood jack shit. I can click reply to anything too and post a bunch of random white noise.
M59's and the rest don't count. The average MMORPG's punters life started the day EQ1 went live. It's an inevitable and inescapable fact I suggest you wrap yourself around and deal with.
You thought Roma Victor hadn't been released yet, where 30 seconds of research would've given you a clue.
So, what else are you going to get wrong today?
But, because I'm a persistent prick, let me ask for the third time: what Korean game can you name that is like EVE?
There isn't, because a game like EVE simply wouldn't do well in Korea. it doesn't fit the gaming style of the koreans.
Was EVE an example to prove the western "orginality"?
Do WE have sidescroll mmorpg's?
do WE have mmorpg's that have turn based combat/ console RPG style?
do WE have MMORPG's of about every sport that exists?
do WE have mmorpg's about cars and racing?
the koreans do. we don't.
in reply to the main topic, There are many more Asia based companies producing low-budget mmorpgs that barely make it past the beta stage. To say that Korean MMO's "suck" is stupid. Different regions of the world have different popular games, for example Halo was a big success in the US,UK and Australia while the Final Fantasy Series was a big success in Asian Cultures around the world. This may seem like a generalisation but its true. The style of a game will always depend on the culture and background of the game developers.
Yes it is true that many Asian mmorpgs truely are bad, but there are also many that truely impressive games. The same goes for the "western" mmorpgs also. although there are somewhat fewer mmorpgs released in the west, they are mostly by big name developers with alot of cash to put into the game.
So some mmorpgs suck and some dont, there are just more korean mmorpgs out there than others and saying they all suck would be very biased.
Flyff - This game is just cool. It looks like your pretty standard Korean MMO fare, but with some differences:
1. You can fly.
2. PVP servers.
3. The grind isn't too bad.
4. It's free.
5. You can fly.
That sums it up pretty well.
Final Fantasy XI - This is the best PvM game you will ever play. Period. Screw 40 man raids, we have 70 man raids. Grouping is forced from level 10 on up. Party play is basically mandatory. If you want to play with other people, if you complain about never being able to find parties, PLAY THIS GAME and your problems are solved. The community is also great, mainly because of the Japanese. They make sure that lamers get a bad reputation overnight, so there's absolutely NO "money plz" netspeakers with broken caps lock keys. Even at low levels. There's also a weird kind of capture the flag event for people who enjoy a little PvP on the side.
Silkroad Online - This game is like the EVE of Asian MMOs. It's truly unique and groundbreaking because it has totally different goals than conventional MMOs. You can be either a trader, a hunter, or a thief. Your goal is to get rich. Traders make trade runs across the silk road, and when they finish, they get money for their goods. Thieves try to steal the traders' goods along the way. Hunters protect the traders from thieves and get paid for their services. Seriously, have you ever heard of an MMO like that? It's AWESOME.
Btw...Eve online is based out of Iceland, Tibia is based out of Germany, and Runescape is a UK based company. Of all your selections above, only one is really what could be referred to as a "western" produced game, and that would be Auto Assault (a Colorado based company).
European and American markets are not the same...hence you have American, European, and Asian markets. So next time, research the origins of games used in your defense before just blindly posting something and assuming we know that you know what you're talking about. Thanks.
Actually the european and american market are EXACTLY the same when it comes to mmorpg's. Its not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in europe as in the United states. It is not coincidence that the few mmorpg's created in europe are in many ways VERY similiar to the american MMO's. maybe YOU should do your research a little better. when people talk about the western market, europe is usually included. so next time, do your research on mmo's and the mmorpg market a little better before you post things like that. thanks.
Surely you do not actually believe that European and American markets are EXACTLY the same, as you put it, do you? Saga of Ryzom for example, is a French game, but it is quite similar to the Asian style of gameplay. In some ways you might actually say that it's a merge between the Asian graphics style and western controls. Yet, simply because some people in America choose to play it, does it now mean that it's a "western" style of game? No.
Secondly, your comment about saying "It's not coincidence the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in Europe as in the United States" is completely illogical. By your own admission, you play Korean games, and so they are popular with you and others in the US. So because they may have some populartity in the US, does this now mean that Korean games are now "westernized"? Duh...I don't think so, because if they were there would be no such thing as western/Asian market distinctions. There are easily identifiable distinctions between the market these games were designed for. The logic you use to say that the EXACT same mmorpg's are popular in Europe and the US is completely misplaced, because an items popularity in a country outside of its origin country does not change the origin of the game, nor it's intended market. If you find Korean mmo's to be popular you are just playing a game that was designed for a different market, but you have not westernized it simply by the playing of it. It is, and will remain, a Korean game designed for an Asian market.
So now, in addition to doing research, start using some common sense and think before you write.