Paying real money on RNG to get a reward? Paying for a "chance" to get what you want?
Its borderline gambling at least, but I hope it is classified as gambling regardless. Worldwide. Hopefully that will deter the wanker suits at the head of developer/publisher companies from going through the trouble and/or straight up make it illegal for it to be done in games made for minors.
Are you talking about raiding, mobs, and daily dungeons, or loot crates because your description of a variable reward mechanism fits all those. By your call, then all MMOs and online gaming should be classified as gambling.
You skipped the entire "paying real money" line to make an asinine point. If you are directly paying real money to receive an RNG reward directly from that transaction, you are gambling, period.
And no, the box price of an RPG does not constitute the price of gambling, even if mob drops are random. You are paying for the entirety of content in the game within which you are given free reign to obtain ingame rewards via playing content.
It's similar to Cracker Jack. You aren't paying for the random prize. You're paying for the Cracker Jack itself, and the prize is considered a free loyalty reward to the consumer.
Paying real money on RNG to get a reward? Paying for a "chance" to get what you want?
Its borderline gambling at least, but I hope it is classified as gambling regardless. Worldwide. Hopefully that will deter the wanker suits at the head of developer/publisher companies from going through the trouble and/or straight up make it illegal for it to be done in games made for minors.
Are you talking about raiding, mobs, and daily dungeons, or loot crates because your description of a variable reward mechanism fits all those. By your call, then all MMOs and online gaming should be classified as gambling.
Why do you insist on making that argument ad nauseum?
There's a distinct and significant difference between a lootbox and completing content in a game. It's pretty readily apparent.
Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.
Give kids a chance - pun intended
Teach kids about personal responsibility? In this day and age? This is 2017 man! Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore. No, education is pointless. Just let the Almighty State step in and protect us from our own stupidity and ignorance.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.
Give kids a chance - pun intended
Teach kids about personal responsibility? In this day and age? This is 2017 man! Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore. No, education is pointless. Just let the Almighty State step in and protect us from our own stupidity and ignorance.
I agree. We've gotten REALLY good at preventing natural selection
Paying real money on RNG to get a reward? Paying for a "chance" to get what you want?
Its borderline gambling at least, but I hope it is classified as gambling regardless. Worldwide. Hopefully that will deter the wanker suits at the head of developer/publisher companies from going through the trouble and/or straight up make it illegal for it to be done in games made for minors.
Are you talking about raiding, mobs, and daily dungeons, or loot crates because your description of a variable reward mechanism fits all those. By your call, then all MMOs and online gaming should be classified as gambling.
You skipped the entire "paying real money" line to make an asinine point. If you are directly paying real money to receive an RNG reward directly from that transaction, you are gambling, period.
And no, the box price of an RPG does not constitute the price of gambling, even if mob drops are random. You are paying for the entirety of content in the game within which you are given free reign to obtain ingame rewards via playing content.
It's similar to Cracker Jack. You aren't paying for the random prize. You're paying for the Cracker Jack itself, and the prize is considered a free loyalty reward to the consumer.
You're rationalizing and asserting it as fact doesn't make it any truer.
Mate, you're the one making a positive claim. The burden of proof is on you. Prove that ingame RNG and RNG transactions are the same issue, if you are so inclined to make this ridiculous abortion of an argument.
Paying real money on RNG to get a reward? Paying for a "chance" to get what you want?
Its borderline gambling at least, but I hope it is classified as gambling regardless. Worldwide. Hopefully that will deter the wanker suits at the head of developer/publisher companies from going through the trouble and/or straight up make it illegal for it to be done in games made for minors.
Are you talking about raiding, mobs, and daily dungeons, or loot crates because your description of a variable reward mechanism fits all those. By your call, then all MMOs and online gaming should be classified as gambling.
Why do you insist on making that argument ad nauseum?
There's a distinct and significant difference between a lootbox and completing content in a game. It's pretty readily apparent.
Why do you keep rationalizing away pieces of this you want to keep?
Rationalizing? Tell me how you rationalize away the fact that completing content and paying for a virtual box to open aren't, at all, the same thing?
It's like getting angry that you have to pay for a sporting event ticket before knowing if your team will win. You paid for the entertainment experience of the time spent watching the game. Same with video games.
You're attempts to equate the two come off as simply a disingenuous attempt to be argumentative here.
Gaming Dork: Your honor, it's different because we're gaming for the rewards. We raided for it and earned it so we deserve it. Paying for that is totally different than clicking other digital objects, like Pavlov's dog, for rewards.
How you get to the clicky reward isn't relevant. What's relevant to whether variable reward mechanisms are gambling or constitute a gambling like mechanic is just that: variable reward + money. It doesn't matter if you're renting clickies by the month or click.
So yes, monsters that are loot pinatas, boss loot chests, daily/weekly dungeon/raid rewards, and loot crates all use the same mechanism to reward. Buying a sub doesn't grant infinite clicks like a box purchase. It grants a limited number of clicks for treasure based on how many mobs a person can click on and other arbitrary limits like raid locks. Subscription game raid locks are a perfect example of arbitrary limitations to a variable reward container that is only accessible through money.
The point being the gimmicks behind the click or how much you find them engaging are irrelevant to their definition of being a pay gated variable reward mechanism.
Your only example that can retain a logical relevance is raid lock progression. I agree: it's a terrible mechanic. So where does that mean that lootboxes should be a-okay with me, or that they're a better system?
The rest of your post boils down to "paying for a loot box in a shop window IS the same as playing through the game content because they both have RNG associated," which is inaccurate at best, the aforementioned disingenuous argumentative posturing at worst.
Maybe they'll play this out in gaming court where all those legal details won't get in the way.
Let me ask you this: are you a lawyer? Because frankly, your understanding of the legal nuances here, appears to be questionable at best. When you have to conflate two completely unrelated concepts, you aren't starting at a point of strength.
I'd be interested in seeing what a lawyer familiar with gambling regulations has to say on the matter.
Maybe they'll play this out in gaming court where all those legal details won't get in the way.
Let me ask you this: are you a lawyer? Because frankly, your understanding of the legal nuances here, appears to be questionable at best. When you have to conflate two completely unrelated concepts, you aren't starting at a point of strength.
I'd be interested in seeing what a lawyer familiar with gambling regulations has to say on the matter.
I am quite perplexed at the aggressiveness through which Torval pursues this argument.
He mentions raid locks, which are not fun sure, but still aren't even remotely the same as purchasing loot boxes. Sure, it's time-gating content which can attempt to squeeze more money through sub fees, but it's still time-gating. Time accrues equally for everyone. Unless they're offering different levels of subs that provide different loot rates, the comparison fails on more than one level.
This news is basically way too vague to understand what is going on. I can make some assumptions based on the fact,courts/law have shown VERY little knowledge or effort to clean up scummy game developers.
So far i can think of only 3x,first Hasbro was sued because it affected a LOT of people across USA,second EA was sued but not for gaming but for avoiding paying employees properly and third was a well known streamer w who was paid by a giant corp to You Tube sponsored videos and not denote them as sponsored. So yeah the effort by governments has been garbage,lazy bastards sitting behind a desk paid by taxpayers dollars.
To me it is super obvious,it is gambling.So i assume some lawyers have found a way to manipulate terms and conditions and results to convince courts/judges they are not gambling,in other words pray on the ignorant non gaming people like the lawyers or judges.
NO idea of result or what you get for your money....hmmm
Gambling,stick 50 cents in a slot machine,NO IDEA the result or what you get.
Pretty simple,if you cannot first look at what you are buying "the products",you have no control over the results,similar to gambling,example spend more money lowers the odds to not lose.
An even bigger issue i have is when we win something,we get something,we OWN it we have it to show,in our hands ,be it money or some prize.Well gaming is telling us we are buying something and we own it,but we don't really own it,it is still theirs,so it is a very misleading and corrupt function within gaming.It is like buying a car but WAIT,they tell you don't really own it,you only license the use of it but never own it,it is still the manufacturer's car,you cannot sell it or trade it because they own the rights to it still.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.
Give kids a chance - pun intended
That would cost real money! Might impact "tax cuts".
Much better - surely - to turn the clock back to those "good old days" when 7 year olds were down the pits and in the weaving mills. And working 12 hours days would mean they had no time to indulge.
If you don't agree and you buy these games... you really do have a problem. Seek out counseling. The government won't help, and neither will people who believe in a little toughness called "don't be a b*tch."
I am by no means perfect.. but jeez when I see something that I don't agree with I don't do it(I refuse to play games from these louts and I also haven't been to a Wal-Mart in over 10 years)! How is that a novel concept? Don't complain about loot boxes then support the maker....
Isn't whatever you wanna call it RNG in games worse than gambling cause with real gambling you actually win something with real world value but in most games you don't? Csgo and some steam games being the exceptions where you are legally allowed to sell your loot box winnings.
Not thinking about this with ultimate logic because I'm a primate but loot boxes, card packs etc FEEL like gambling to me the same as when I go to a casino and sit in front of a slot or play video poker or roulette but maybe that's just me. Before I purchase ANY card pack or loot crate I go through the same mental checklist I do when I go to the casino to make sure I 1. Have enough extra money to spend and go over if I paid for everything I needed to this month bills etc. 2. Designate a fixed amount I can spend and not go over. 3. Tell myself not to get too down if I lose cause I usually do. The only difference with the RNG cash items from games is that I can continue to use what I win in the game for an extended period of time after the act of gambling has ended. If what I win from RNG cash stuff is used after the win then isn't it just game content won via gambling? I gambled for game content and the more I spend the more game content I can use, use being the key word cause I don't really own it so the RNG cash stuff is some form of mutated/abomination DLC based on chance.
If you want to look at it another way a bunch of people are throwing a bunch of money into a pool + some aren't throwing anything(in ftp games) and the game company randomly decides who wins and loses the best prizes. If I sat down at a poker game and someone who put zero into the prize pool had a chance to win something I'd be pissed and wouldn't play yet in games we're just supposed to accept it. It isn't even acceptable to ask how they determine who wins and loses, reminds me of that "other" casino in Vegas Vacation.
Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.
Give kids a chance - pun intended
That would cost real money! Might impact "tax cuts".
Much better - surely - to turn the clock back to those "good old days" when 7 year olds were down the pits and in the weaving mills. And working 12 hours days would mean they had no time to indulge.
Still exists, only difference is that it's not happening in your own back yard.
You unconsciously/unknowingly support child labor by buying many products produced by child labor.
Teach about gambling and addiction n schools, alongside probability and statistics as well as basic money mangement.
Give kids a chance - pun intended
That would cost real money! Might impact "tax cuts".
Much better - surely - to turn the clock back to those "good old days" when 7 year olds were down the pits and in the weaving mills. And working 12 hours days would mean they had no time to indulge.
Still exists, only difference is that it's not happening in your own back yard.
You unconsciously/unknowingly support child labor by buying many products produced by child labor.
Especially clothing.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
And no, the box price of an RPG does not constitute the price of gambling, even if mob drops are random. You are paying for the entirety of content in the game within which you are given free reign to obtain ingame rewards via playing content.
It's similar to Cracker Jack. You aren't paying for the random prize. You're paying for the Cracker Jack itself, and the prize is considered a free loyalty reward to the consumer.
There's a distinct and significant difference between a lootbox and completing content in a game. It's pretty readily apparent.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
I agree. We've gotten REALLY good at preventing natural selection
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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It's like getting angry that you have to pay for a sporting event ticket before knowing if your team will win. You paid for the entertainment experience of the time spent watching the game. Same with video games.
You're attempts to equate the two come off as simply a disingenuous attempt to be argumentative here.
The rest of your post boils down to "paying for a loot box in a shop window IS the same as playing through the game content because they both have RNG associated," which is inaccurate at best, the aforementioned disingenuous argumentative posturing at worst.
Shoot me straight: did you INVENT the idea of lootboxes?? Are we bashing your intellectual baby here or something?
I'd be interested in seeing what a lawyer familiar with gambling regulations has to say on the matter.
He mentions raid locks, which are not fun sure, but still aren't even remotely the same as purchasing loot boxes. Sure, it's time-gating content which can attempt to squeeze more money through sub fees, but it's still time-gating. Time accrues equally for everyone. Unless they're offering different levels of subs that provide different loot rates, the comparison fails on more than one level.
I can make some assumptions based on the fact,courts/law have shown VERY little knowledge or effort to clean up scummy game developers.
So far i can think of only 3x,first Hasbro was sued because it affected a LOT of people across USA,second EA was sued but not for gaming but for avoiding paying employees properly and third was a well known streamer w who was paid by a giant corp to You Tube sponsored videos and not denote them as sponsored.
So yeah the effort by governments has been garbage,lazy bastards sitting behind a desk paid by taxpayers dollars.
To me it is super obvious,it is gambling.So i assume some lawyers have found
a way to manipulate terms and conditions and results to convince courts/judges they are not gambling,in other words pray on the ignorant non gaming people like the lawyers or judges.
NO idea of result or what you get for your money....hmmm
Gambling,stick 50 cents in a slot machine,NO IDEA the result or what you get.
Pretty simple,if you cannot first look at what you are buying "the products",you have no control over the results,similar to gambling,example spend more money lowers the odds to not lose.
An even bigger issue i have is when we win something,we get something,we OWN it we have it to show,in our hands ,be it money or some prize.Well gaming is telling us we are buying something and we own it,but we don't really own it,it is still theirs,so it is a very misleading and corrupt function within gaming.It is like buying a car but WAIT,they tell you don't really own it,you only license the use of it but never own it,it is still the manufacturer's car,you cannot sell it or trade it because they own the rights to it still.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Much better - surely - to turn the clock back to those "good old days" when 7 year olds were down the pits and in the weaving mills. And working 12 hours days would mean they had no time to indulge.
If you don't agree and you buy these games... you really do have a problem. Seek out counseling. The government won't help, and neither will people who believe in a little toughness called "don't be a b*tch."
I am by no means perfect.. but jeez when I see something that I don't agree with I don't do it(I refuse to play games from these louts and I also haven't been to a Wal-Mart in over 10 years)! How is that a novel concept? Don't complain about loot boxes then support the maker....
Not thinking about this with ultimate logic because I'm a primate but loot boxes, card packs etc FEEL like gambling to me the same as when I go to a casino and sit in front of a slot or play video poker or roulette but maybe that's just me. Before I purchase ANY card pack or loot crate I go through the same mental checklist I do when I go to the casino to make sure I 1. Have enough extra money to spend and go over if I paid for everything I needed to this month bills etc. 2. Designate a fixed amount I can spend and not go over. 3. Tell myself not to get too down if I lose cause I usually do. The only difference with the RNG cash items from games is that I can continue to use what I win in the game for an extended period of time after the act of gambling has ended. If what I win from RNG cash stuff is used after the win then isn't it just game content won via gambling? I gambled for game content and the more I spend the more game content I can use, use being the key word cause I don't really own it so the RNG cash stuff is some form of mutated/abomination DLC based on chance.
If you want to look at it another way a bunch of people are throwing a bunch of money into a pool + some aren't throwing anything(in ftp games) and the game company randomly decides who wins and loses the best prizes. If I sat down at a poker game and someone who put zero into the prize pool had a chance to win something I'd be pissed and wouldn't play yet in games we're just supposed to accept it. It isn't even acceptable to ask how they determine who wins and loses, reminds me of that "other" casino in Vegas Vacation.
You unconsciously/unknowingly support child labor by buying many products produced by child labor.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED