In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress. They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night. Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?
Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs. However taking action with the information given is much different today.
With old school this would be a memorable experience. Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting. A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation. The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.
To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?
You just described a pen and paper table top game. The only thing you didn't mention is the dungeon master who narrates the game, which you just did.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress. They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night. Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?
Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs. However taking action with the information given is much different today.
With old school this would be a memorable experience. Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting. A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation. The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.
To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?
Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games.
You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.
Your absolutely right, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing. Nothing can be done about it !
However: It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
When an AI can act as GM and craft the adventure for the group that is online then online guides will not help, the first person will only be able to give a general idea of what is going on. Until then we can dream.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my earlier post about "dungeon AI" or not. But the point of this "dungeon AI" idea isn't to craft the adventure, it's to give it the ability to change it up by randomizing the MOB "instructions" in any given local of significance (dungeon room, ruins, camp sites, cemeteries, etc.).
This idea isn't really for a Themepark game where the content is fixed. It's for Sandbox, open worlds where MOBs wander and things change. So you don't have cheats available to clearly tell players where, when, and how. It's for adventure, not game guides.
In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress. They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night. Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?
Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs. However taking action with the information given is much different today.
With old school this would be a memorable experience. Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting. A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation. The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.
To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?
Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games.
You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.
Your absolutely right, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing. Nothing can be done about it !
However: It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
When an AI can act as GM and craft the adventure for the group that is online then online guides will not help, the first person will only be able to give a general idea of what is going on. Until then we can dream.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my earlier post about "dungeon AI" or not. But the point of this "dungeon AI" idea isn't to craft the adventure, it's to give it the ability to change it up by randomizing the MOB "instructions" in any given local of significance (dungeon room, ruins, camp sites, cemeteries, etc.).
This idea isn't really for a Themepark game where the content is fixed. It's for Sandbox, open worlds where MOBs wander and things change. So you don't have cheats available to clearly tell players where, when, and how. It's for adventure, not game guides.
I like the idea of "dungeon AI". I assume it's to keep walk through's and YouTubes useless.
But if the content for the player is long and hard anyway then the adventure can be huge amounts of fun anyway.
In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress. They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night. Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?
Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs. However taking action with the information given is much different today.
With old school this would be a memorable experience. Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting. A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation. The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.
To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?
Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games.
You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.
Your absolutely right, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing. Nothing can be done about it !
However: It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
When an AI can act as GM and craft the adventure for the group that is online then online guides will not help, the first person will only be able to give a general idea of what is going on. Until then we can dream.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my earlier post about "dungeon AI" or not. But the point of this "dungeon AI" idea isn't to craft the adventure, it's to give it the ability to change it up by randomizing the MOB "instructions" in any given local of significance (dungeon room, ruins, camp sites, cemeteries, etc.).
This idea isn't really for a Themepark game where the content is fixed. It's for Sandbox, open worlds where MOBs wander and things change. So you don't have cheats available to clearly tell players where, when, and how. It's for adventure, not game guides.
I like the idea of "dungeon AI". I assume it's to keep walk through's and YouTubes useless.
But if the content for the player is long and hard anyway then the adventure can be huge amounts of fun anyway.
Guides are far harder to produce for sandbox anyway. But I was dreaming, we are going to have to wait for real AI's who take the building blocks of the MMOs you see today and manipulate them like a Minecraft game. That way every group would have a unique journey, a unique (Bards) tale to tell.
Guides are far harder to produce for sandbox anyway. But I was dreaming, we are going to have to wait for real AI's who take the building blocks of the MMOs you see today and manipulate them like a Minecraft game. That way every group would have a unique journey, a unique (Bards) tale to tell.
Yes, you are dreaming. AI is nowhere close enough to be creative in design & writing like humans yet.
However, the day will come .. another 50 years? The point is this though .. by the time it is available, the whole landscape of gaming may have changed. For example, may be humans are already sick of other humans, and would like to play with AI (i.e. single player) only.
Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.
Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.
"Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one."
Yeah, but they're only making the one.
"if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs."
Are you listening to yourself? That's fine for Single Player Games, but MMO's are social. Lets break that idea down to small group centered games, "Mulit-Player", and look at your comment. So a group of 8 players get together and some of them use walkthroughs and some don't. They soon split up. Those that do walk through the content and either have to wait for those who don't use it, or move on to the next grind. The others, next time around, most of them are most likely to join the group that does use the walkthroughs. And those who don't fall even farther behind the others.
It's human nature to both: -take the easier way if available, -and to want to keep up with the Jones's.
But that means boring, dead brain game play. Eye candy is the only thing of real interest. And badges, sort of like Barney Fife's bullet. Pretty meaningless.
No, there isn't only the one. Some choose to only recognize one. That is a personal limitation of perspective, not a genuine limitation of the genre.
Not looking up walkthroughs has nothing to do with whether a game is social or not. In social games It simply requires that all players involved choose to do so rather than one. Within the context of a MMORPG that will obviously require a collective agreement by players of like mind, which would work best in a static group.
One of the defining qualities of human beings is the ability and propensity to defy nature. In fact, the vast majority of human effort is devoted to just that purpose. Being inclined to seek the easy way out and keep up with others is a personal rather than universal quality.
Eye candy is the only thing of interest to those only interested in eye candy.
Badges, like most things, have the value a person places on them, which will vary from one to another. Some can't be bothered with them, while others pursue them avidly. The value you assign to them only applies and has relevance to you.
In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress. They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night. Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?
Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs. However taking action with the information given is much different today.
With old school this would be a memorable experience. Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting. A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation. The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.
To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?
Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games.
You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.
Your absolutely right, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing. Nothing can be done about it !
However: It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
When an AI can act as GM and craft the adventure for the group that is online then online guides will not help, the first person will only be able to give a general idea of what is going on. Until then we can dream.
I'm not sure if you're referring to my earlier post about "dungeon AI" or not. But the point of this "dungeon AI" idea isn't to craft the adventure, it's to give it the ability to change it up by randomizing the MOB "instructions" in any given local of significance (dungeon room, ruins, camp sites, cemeteries, etc.).
This idea isn't really for a Themepark game where the content is fixed. It's for Sandbox, open worlds where MOBs wander and things change. So you don't have cheats available to clearly tell players where, when, and how. It's for adventure, not game guides.
I like the idea of "dungeon AI". I assume it's to keep walk through's and YouTubes useless.
But if the content for the player is long and hard anyway then the adventure can be huge amounts of fun anyway.
No, it's not really about walk-throughs, that's a side benefit. What it's about is creating a world where players can't know what's ahead, without a need for GMs to actively make changes all the time (an impossible task).
It's a way of making a world come alive on the NPC/MOB side. It also requires an NPC/MOB AI that gives them a simulated ability to make decisions. All that really is is a series of possible weighted random "rolls" when MOBs encounter a spot that has this "dungeon AI", which tells the MOB they can do various things. It tells them some strategies, some construction options like traps and/or barricades, where "escape" or "fellow MOBs" are (as in deeper in or over in the next room of the "dungeon"), where the high ground is and what to do with it, things like that.
But then it goes to the MOB AI for the "decisions", the weighted random "roll", on what they actually do. It's additional options for the MOB, based on the specific place.
With this, MOBs can roam the world and take up these places and act like they know what they are doing with what they have. And it's unpredictable because there are options rather than one defined instruction.
It creates content that's almost as good as the Dev designed stuff of today, because it has a polish, but it's not predictable and changes all the time every time players clear a room and it restocks later.
Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.
Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.
"Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one."
Yeah, but they're only making the one.
"if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs."
Are you listening to yourself? That's fine for Single Player Games, but MMO's are social. Lets break that idea down to small group centered games, "Mulit-Player", and look at your comment. So a group of 8 players get together and some of them use walkthroughs and some don't. They soon split up. Those that do walk through the content and either have to wait for those who don't use it, or move on to the next grind. The others, next time around, most of them are most likely to join the group that does use the walkthroughs. And those who don't fall even farther behind the others.
It's human nature to both: -take the easier way if available, -and to want to keep up with the Jones's.
But that means boring, dead brain game play. Eye candy is the only thing of real interest. And badges, sort of like Barney Fife's bullet. Pretty meaningless.
No, there isn't only the one. Some choose to only recognize one. That is a personal limitation of perspective, not a genuine limitation of the genre.
Not looking up walkthroughs has nothing to do with whether a game is social or not. In social games It simply requires that all players involved choose to do so rather than one. Within the context of a MMORPG that will obviously require a collective agreement by players of like mind, which would work best in a static group.
One of the defining qualities of human beings is the ability and propensity to defy nature. In fact, the vast majority of human effort is devoted to just that purpose. Being inclined to seek the easy way out and keep up with others is a personal rather than universal quality.
Eye candy is the only thing of interest to those only interested in eye candy.
Badges, like most things, have the value a person places on them, which will vary from one to another. Some can't be bothered with them, while others pursue them avidly. The value you assign to them only applies and has relevance to you.
1- There are always exceptions to the general rule. 2- Eye candy is eye candy. My point was that it's the only thing of value left because everything is predictable and unchanging and there's no "game" left in it once it's known. 3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge. Yes, there are exceptions to this as well. But the vast majority of "badges" are just map markers that anyone and everyone can easily get. Like a blue ribbon in for showing up.
3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge.
Lol .. meaningful in games? Is it really that "meaningful" if the devs makes you jumps through hoops for 3 hours before giving you a virtual ribbon, compared to just one hour?
If i want meaningful challenges, i work. If someone has to find meaningful achievement in games (aside from e-sports), i feel sad.
3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge.
Lol .. meaningful in games? Is it really that "meaningful" if the devs makes you jumps through hoops for 3 hours before giving you a virtual ribbon, compared to just one hour?
If i want meaningful challenges, i work. If someone has to find meaningful achievement in games (aside from e-sports), i feel sad.
I like to think. I like to overcome obstacles and actually win the reward, as opposed to be granted it for acting like a game bot.
3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge.
Lol .. meaningful in games? Is it really that "meaningful" if the devs makes you jumps through hoops for 3 hours before giving you a virtual ribbon, compared to just one hour?
If i want meaningful challenges, i work. If someone has to find meaningful achievement in games (aside from e-sports), i feel sad.
I like to think. I like to overcome obstacles and actually win the reward, as opposed to be granted it for acting like a game bot.
I wouldn't even both to reply. Here is someone getting their fulfillment from making fun of others on message boards and admitting to it. The someone who doesn't even like the games and other forms of entertainment they praise enough to use them over trying to goad people into arguments on a message board.
Personally, I feel games are better with challenging puzzles. It's just too bad people who can figure them out are not appreciated in this day and age due to all the guides available.
Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.
Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.
"Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one."
Yeah, but they're only making the one.
"if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs."
Are you listening to yourself? That's fine for Single Player Games, but MMO's are social. Lets break that idea down to small group centered games, "Mulit-Player", and look at your comment. So a group of 8 players get together and some of them use walkthroughs and some don't. They soon split up. Those that do walk through the content and either have to wait for those who don't use it, or move on to the next grind. The others, next time around, most of them are most likely to join the group that does use the walkthroughs. And those who don't fall even farther behind the others.
It's human nature to both: -take the easier way if available, -and to want to keep up with the Jones's.
But that means boring, dead brain game play. Eye candy is the only thing of real interest. And badges, sort of like Barney Fife's bullet. Pretty meaningless.
No, there isn't only the one. Some choose to only recognize one. That is a personal limitation of perspective, not a genuine limitation of the genre.
Not looking up walkthroughs has nothing to do with whether a game is social or not. In social games It simply requires that all players involved choose to do so rather than one. Within the context of a MMORPG that will obviously require a collective agreement by players of like mind, which would work best in a static group.
One of the defining qualities of human beings is the ability and propensity to defy nature. In fact, the vast majority of human effort is devoted to just that purpose. Being inclined to seek the easy way out and keep up with others is a personal rather than universal quality.
Eye candy is the only thing of interest to those only interested in eye candy.
Badges, like most things, have the value a person places on them, which will vary from one to another. Some can't be bothered with them, while others pursue them avidly. The value you assign to them only applies and has relevance to you.
1- There are always exceptions to the general rule. 2- Eye candy is eye candy. My point was that it's the only thing of value left because everything is predictable and unchanging and there's no "game" left in it once it's known. 3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge. Yes, there are exceptions to this as well. But the vast majority of "badges" are just map markers that anyone and everyone can easily get. Like a blue ribbon in for showing up.
1. True, but your definition is the exception in the context of MMORPGs, not the general rule.
2. Obviously eye candy is what it is. That it is valued as you claim is not a universal truth.
3. Badges have subjective value. Your values are not the only subject.
Regardless of whether you wish to accept it, some that value collections don't value an associated challenge, but simply collecting in and of itself. Some only care about the blue ribbon. In the context of a game, and in many collection activities in life, that really isn't an issue.
Comparing it to what is functionally an attendance reward rather than one based on achievement, that has gone far beyond the kindergarten stage where it could be seen as having some merit to those where it clearly has none, isn't all that apt.
Rewards for achievement in an arena (the actual world) that can inspire one to go on to meaningful, meritorious life are not analogous to game achievements that while challenging... or not... are functionally irrelevant and thus have no potential to be meaningful.
the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
Why would anyone want to do that? If it's that hard you should level up and come back, not waste your time and make yourself depressed and angry failing over and over again.
Ha........... This kind of thinking brings me back !
A few years ago, all my friends at work got together in Vanilla WoW. But this one guy is the type that never conforms to any kind of standard in anything he does. He decided to play this game without ever doing a quest, just kill things.... Needless to say, things didn't work out for him and he realized it three weeks in.
Anyway, that's not the point. After he decided to do quest, he still wouldn't play as intended. When he reached his 50's he asked me to help him do his Paladin quest line. I told him, this was to be done in his 20's.
So we ran like three low level dungeons to fill his needs and he turned the quest in to be rewarded with some kind of blue level 25 two handed mallet...... Being in his 50s, he yells, this doesn't help me !!!!
Well, thanks for the funny reminder of how to play wrong
the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely. The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time. If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve. Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".
Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would. All this at level 26 !
Why would anyone want to do that? If it's that hard you should level up and come back, not waste your time and make yourself depressed and angry failing over and over again.
Ha........... This kind of thinking brings me back !
A few years ago, all my friends at work got together in Vanilla WoW. But this one guy is the type that never conforms to any kind of standard in anything he does. He decided to play this game without ever doing a quest, just kill things.... Needless to say, things didn't work out for him and he realized it three weeks in.
Anyway, that's not the point. After he decided to do quest, he still wouldn't play as intended. When he reached his 50's he asked me to help him do his Paladin quest line. I told him, this was to be done in his 20's.
So we ran like three low level dungeons to fill his needs and he turned the quest in to be rewarded with some kind of blue level 25 two handed mallet...... Being in his 50s, he yells, this doesn't help me !!!!
Well, thanks for the funny reminder of how to play wrong
Funnily enough, this was actually how things worked in Everquest as it was quite difficult to get items at the appropriate level. One thing I don't enjoy about modern MMOs is that they force you to play a certain way. That is kind of dull. Being able to use abilities for classes in unintended ways was a large part of the fun for me. At least it required a little thought.
One thing I don't enjoy about modern MMOs is that they force you to play a certain way. That is kind of dull.
Not all do. And unless you try to suggest that a tank (for instance) in EQ could just do whatever he wanted with his character and still be efficient, old games where like that too. There's always been min/maxing. Modern games are actually LESS vulnerable to it than "old school" ones.
Equipment didn't matter too much in early MMOs originally. Most equipment didn't have attribute increases. It was usually something like cloth +2 and a weapon would be something like 2 dmg 20 delay or something of that nature. The increase would be a small amount. People did have a large assortment of items though as equipment was quite difficult to acquire.
I guess you could argue from an equipment standpoint there are more options now, but that isn't really what I am talking about. I'm saying that certain classes had large amounts of abilities and could combine them to do unintended things like I mentioned. Off the top of my head, a Necromancer could solo certain parts of dungeons in EQ by using invisibility, fear, snare, pet, aggro, lull, feign death, and damage over time in tricky ways. A Druid could do similar things in WoW by utilizing cat form to sneak, normal form to heal, and pet form for damage absorption to take down elites. Ultima Online had the mage/fighter build that could do a lot of different things in combat.
There are actually a lot more unintended strategies that relied on the abilities and a certain level of freedom when it comes to things like mob leashes and spell durations. Having abilities on extremely short timers and buffs that fall during combat really eliminate what you can do when combined with mob leashes. On top of that classes have really had the number of abilities they can use reduced in modern games which also hurts when trying to come up with something. The only classes I can see that have become more interesting are the purse melee classes in modern games.
One thing I don't enjoy about modern MMOs is that they force you to play a certain way. That is kind of dull.
Not all do. And unless you try to suggest that a tank (for instance) in EQ could just do whatever he wanted with his character and still be efficient, old games where like that too. There's always been min/maxing. Modern games are actually LESS vulnerable to it than "old school" ones.
Equipment didn't matter too much in early MMOs originally.
If you are talking about EQ, I may as well just stop reading here. EQ is THE game which introduced heavy gear dependency to MMORPGs, unlike the two other "big veterans" UO and AC1.
I mentioned a few different hames , but EQ wasn"t very equipment dependant in the beginning. That was not until there were raids, epic quest, and other jazz I didn't care much for. Regardless the caster classes and hybrid classes had a larger array of abilities that allowed creative use of them than any other MMO I have played. Even in group scenarios.
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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Alternatives ... ask the devs. They have zero obligation to cater to you. You have to convince them to do so.
But the point of this "dungeon AI" idea isn't to craft the adventure, it's to give it the ability to change it up by randomizing the MOB "instructions" in any given local of significance (dungeon room, ruins, camp sites, cemeteries, etc.).
This idea isn't really for a Themepark game where the content is fixed.
It's for Sandbox, open worlds where MOBs wander and things change. So you don't have cheats available to clearly tell players where, when, and how. It's for adventure, not game guides.
Once upon a time....
I like the idea of "dungeon AI". I assume it's to keep walk through's and YouTubes useless.
But if the content for the player is long and hard anyway then the adventure can be huge amounts of fun anyway.
Guides are far harder to produce for sandbox anyway. But I was dreaming, we are going to have to wait for real AI's who take the building blocks of the MMOs you see today and manipulate them like a Minecraft game. That way every group would have a unique journey, a unique (Bards) tale to tell.
Yes, you are dreaming. AI is nowhere close enough to be creative in design & writing like humans yet.
However, the day will come .. another 50 years? The point is this though .. by the time it is available, the whole landscape of gaming may have changed. For example, may be humans are already sick of other humans, and would like to play with AI (i.e. single player) only.
Not looking up walkthroughs has nothing to do with whether a game is social or not. In social games It simply requires that all players involved choose to do so rather than one. Within the context of a MMORPG that will obviously require a collective agreement by players of like mind, which would work best in a static group.
One of the defining qualities of human beings is the ability and propensity to defy nature. In fact, the vast majority of human effort is devoted to just that purpose. Being inclined to seek the easy way out and keep up with others is a personal rather than universal quality.
Eye candy is the only thing of interest to those only interested in eye candy.
Badges, like most things, have the value a person places on them, which will vary from one to another. Some can't be bothered with them, while others pursue them avidly. The value you assign to them only applies and has relevance to you.
What it's about is creating a world where players can't know what's ahead, without a need for GMs to actively make changes all the time (an impossible task).
It's a way of making a world come alive on the NPC/MOB side. It also requires an NPC/MOB AI that gives them a simulated ability to make decisions. All that really is is a series of possible weighted random "rolls" when MOBs encounter a spot that has this "dungeon AI", which tells the MOB they can do various things. It tells them some strategies, some construction options like traps and/or barricades, where "escape" or "fellow MOBs" are (as in deeper in or over in the next room of the "dungeon"), where the high ground is and what to do with it, things like that.
But then it goes to the MOB AI for the "decisions", the weighted random "roll", on what they actually do.
It's additional options for the MOB, based on the specific place.
With this, MOBs can roam the world and take up these places and act like they know what they are doing with what they have. And it's unpredictable because there are options rather than one defined instruction.
It creates content that's almost as good as the Dev designed stuff of today, because it has a polish, but it's not predictable and changes all the time every time players clear a room and it restocks later.
Once upon a time....
2- Eye candy is eye candy. My point was that it's the only thing of value left because everything is predictable and unchanging and there's no "game" left in it once it's known.
3- Badges, they're like blue ribbons in kindergarten. They COULD be more meaningful IF they actually represented overcoming a real challenge.
Yes, there are exceptions to this as well. But the vast majority of "badges" are just map markers that anyone and everyone can easily get. Like a blue ribbon in for showing up.
Once upon a time....
Lol .. meaningful in games? Is it really that "meaningful" if the devs makes you jumps through hoops for 3 hours before giving you a virtual ribbon, compared to just one hour?
If i want meaningful challenges, i work. If someone has to find meaningful achievement in games (aside from e-sports), i feel sad.
I like to overcome obstacles and actually win the reward, as opposed to be granted it for acting like a game bot.
Once upon a time....
Personally, I feel games are better with challenging puzzles. It's just too bad people who can figure them out are not appreciated in this day and age due to all the guides available.
2. Obviously eye candy is what it is. That it is valued as you claim is not a universal truth.
3. Badges have subjective value. Your values are not the only subject.
Regardless of whether you wish to accept it, some that value collections don't value an associated challenge, but simply collecting in and of itself. Some only care about the blue ribbon. In the context of a game, and in many collection activities in life, that really isn't an issue.
Comparing it to what is functionally an attendance reward rather than one based on achievement, that has gone far beyond the kindergarten stage where it could be seen as having some merit to those where it clearly has none, isn't all that apt.
Rewards for achievement in an arena (the actual world) that can inspire one to go on to meaningful, meritorious life are not analogous to game achievements that while challenging... or not... are functionally irrelevant and thus have no potential to be meaningful.
A few years ago, all my friends at work got together in Vanilla WoW. But this one guy is the type that never conforms to any kind of standard in anything he does. He decided to play this game without ever doing a quest, just kill things.... Needless to say, things didn't work out for him and he realized it three weeks in.
Anyway, that's not the point. After he decided to do quest, he still wouldn't play as intended. When he reached his 50's he asked me to help him do his Paladin quest line. I told him, this was to be done in his 20's.
So we ran like three low level dungeons to fill his needs and he turned the quest in to be rewarded with some kind of blue level 25 two handed mallet...... Being in his 50s, he yells, this doesn't help me !!!!
Well, thanks for the funny reminder of how to play wrong
I guess you could argue from an equipment standpoint there are more options now, but that isn't really what I am talking about. I'm saying that certain classes had large amounts of abilities and could combine them to do unintended things like I mentioned. Off the top of my head, a Necromancer could solo certain parts of dungeons in EQ by using invisibility, fear, snare, pet, aggro, lull, feign death, and damage over time in tricky ways. A Druid could do similar things in WoW by utilizing cat form to sneak, normal form to heal, and pet form for damage absorption to take down elites. Ultima Online had the mage/fighter build that could do a lot of different things in combat.
There are actually a lot more unintended strategies that relied on the abilities and a certain level of freedom when it comes to things like mob leashes and spell durations. Having abilities on extremely short timers and buffs that fall during combat really eliminate what you can do when combined with mob leashes. On top of that classes have really had the number of abilities they can use reduced in modern games which also hurts when trying to come up with something. The only classes I can see that have become more interesting are the purse melee classes in modern games.