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Tactical

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress.  They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night.  Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?  

Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs.  However taking action with the information given is much different today.    



With old school this would be a memorable experience.  Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting.  A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation.  The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.  

To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !  

This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?         
RexKushmansunandshadowScotYashaX
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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    edited December 2017
    Puzzles, what's the fascination ? 

    People like to be challenged.  Challenging in video games could have several meanings. 

    I for one think finding "the weak spots" are most popular.  

    Dark Souls 1, 2 and 3 are popular.  It almost seems developers tapped into a hidden secret.  Players find games like this intriguing.  And it's not because of what many think..... It's not because their hard ! 

    People find exploiting weak spots fascinating...... That's the puzzle.  This has been lost in mmorpg's       
    Post edited by delete5230 on
    Thebeasttt
  • RexKushmanRexKushman Member RarePosts: 639
    In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress.  They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night.  Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?  

    Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs.  However taking action with the information given is much different today.    



    With old school this would be a memorable experience.  Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting.  A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation.  The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.  

    To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

    Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !  

    This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?         
    Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games. 

    You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.
    VrikaYashaX

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress.  They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night.  Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?  

    Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs.  However taking action with the information given is much different today.    



    With old school this would be a memorable experience.  Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting.  A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation.  The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.  

    To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

    Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !  

    This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?         
    Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games. 

    You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.

    Your absolutely right, 
    I was thinking the same thing as I was typing.  Nothing can be done about it !  

    However: 
    It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    People find exploiting weak spots fascinating...... That's the puzzle.  This has been lost in mmorpg's       

    Play a puzzle game then. Play a strategic RPG then. And i thought people here think MMORPG should be unique and not cater to gameplay of other genre. 
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
     the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

    Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !       
    Why would anyone want to do that?  If it's that hard you should level up and come back, not waste your time and make yourself depressed and angry failing over and over again.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress.  They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night.  Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?  

    Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs.  However taking action with the information given is much different today.    



    With old school this would be a memorable experience.  Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting.  A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation.  The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.  

    To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

    Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !  

    This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?         
    Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games. 

    You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.

    Your absolutely right, 
    I was thinking the same thing as I was typing.  Nothing can be done about it !  

    However: 
    It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.
    It doesn't have to be that way.
    Games are locked into the Themepark system but a Sandbox with randomness can work if it has what I've called "dungeon AI". This is an AI of sorts that is added to MOB AI for a particular place, and gives said MOBs directions on how to set up, modified by said MOBs own AI and capabilities.
    So one MOB would take that "dungeon AI" and act different in that place than another MOB.
    And the same can be done in outdoor settings, ruins, campsites, etc.
    In other words, variation based on location and MOB type/skills.

    But the current designs, based on Themepark + Cash Shops + PTW is making money the easy way and that's how they like it.
    Expect greater effort to support the status quo until either gamers break it off,
    or someone decides to build a truly great MMO and lead the way to better things.

    Once upon a time....

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I feel like those who say its easy were not around before people could easily look up a solution or problem-solving tactic.  The age of information has made things seem easy.  I'd love to see people dropped into a game like Legend of Zelda with no prior knowledge or internet.  Problem-solving requires a great deal of patience, logic, and not repeating the same mistakes.  

    I agree with people that say I don't think it's possible in this day and age with people quickly giving away the solution in videos.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Flyte27 said:
    I feel like those who say its easy were not around before people could easily look up a solution or problem-solving tactic.  The age of information has made things seem easy.  I'd love to see people dropped into a game like Legend of Zelda with no prior knowledge or internet.  Problem-solving requires a great deal of patience, logic, and not repeating the same mistakes.  

    I agree with people that say I don't think it's possible in this day and age with people quickly giving away the solution in videos.

    It's not always true that searching a solution on the internet, makes it easy all the time.  Their is still execution involved too.  Add that it could be fun even if you know the weak points.  Better than hack-and slash.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Flyte27 said:
    I feel like those who say its easy were not around before people could easily look up a solution or problem-solving tactic.  The age of information has made things seem easy.  I'd love to see people dropped into a game like Legend of Zelda with no prior knowledge or internet.  Problem-solving requires a great deal of patience, logic, and not repeating the same mistakes.  

    I agree with people that say I don't think it's possible in this day and age with people quickly giving away the solution in videos.

    It's not always true that searching a solution on the internet, makes it easy all the time.  Their is still execution involved too.  Add that it could be fun even if you know the weak points.  Better than hack-and slash.
    Theoretically, you still have to execute in modern games.  They just have markers telling you exactly where to go and hints telling you exactly what you need to do in most cases.  You may be right though.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Flyte27 said:

    It's not always true that searching a solution on the internet, makes it easy all the time.  Their is still execution involved too.  Add that it could be fun even if you know the weak points.  Better than hack-and slash.
    Theoretically, you still have to execute in modern games.  They just have markers telling you exactly where to go and hints telling you exactly what you need to do in most cases.  You may be right though.
    I agree except that the word "hint" is misplaced in this case. Hints would be excellent but in almost all cases they tell you exactly what to do, step for step and crossing off each completed step.

    EQ had hints, now we have something more of a neon sign pointing where to stand and text telling you what to do.

    Yes, constantly running around the entire gameworld looking for some vague thing could be very annoying in the early MMOs but there are a lot of in between that and playing Simon says.

    Next thing the game probably plays itself, that is the only possible way to dumb down things more (since the PWE games already have the middle step of clicking on the quest to outorun to where you need to be no matter where you are in the game).

    There is such a thing as being too helpful. 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Yes, just dumb it down less.
    That'll hit the sweet spot.
    Gaming for dummies. Just make it less obvious. :p

    Once upon a time....

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Yes, just dumb it down less.
    That'll hit the sweet spot.
    Gaming for dummies. Just make it less obvious. :p
    Ever played MMOs in the 90s? Sometimes we looked for weeks to find something, that wasn't fun either. It is not a question about making it less obvious, just less annoying and more fun.

    And usually is either of 2 extremes bad. A game should challenge us but there is a point where it just get silly instead, just lile having the game do all the thinking sucks.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Loke666 said:
    Yes, just dumb it down less.
    That'll hit the sweet spot.
    Gaming for dummies. Just make it less obvious. :p
    Ever played MMOs in the 90s? Sometimes we looked for weeks to find something, that wasn't fun either. It is not a question about making it less obvious, just less annoying and more fun.

    And usually is either of 2 extremes bad. A game should challenge us but there is a point where it just get silly instead, just lile having the game do all the thinking sucks.
    Can you provide me with an example of anything in the current game design (for MMO's) where it's not "go here and get this" with a bunch of hack and slash mixed in?

    Once upon a time....

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Can you provide me with an example of anything in the current game design (for MMO's) where it's not "go here and get this" with a bunch of hack and slash mixed in? 


    Sure .. Overwatch. You go corporate with a bunch of players to defeat another bunch of players. No fetching involved.


  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    Can you provide me with an example of anything in the current game design (for MMO's) where it's not "go here and get this" with a bunch of hack and slash mixed in? 


    Sure .. Overwatch. You go corporate with a bunch of players to defeat another bunch of players. No fetching involved.


    Somewhat more relevantly, you've got the whole sandbox genre which generally has no quests.  Xsyon is one of the newest ones, if you think Wurm is too old to qualify as current.

    There are also strategy MMOs where you build up your kingdom and send out war parties.  There are some tutorial quests and some daily challenges but for the most part there aren't really quests.
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

    Once upon a time....

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

     well, in 99% of the games, it is about fighting something. Even the fetching part is kind of incidental. 

    So what is the problem if the combat part is made fun? It is not like we need a good story or deep characterization in games. We have novels and tv for that. 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

     well, in 99% of the games, it is about fighting something. Even the fetching part is kind of incidental. 

    So what is the problem if the combat part is made fun? It is not like we need a good story or deep characterization in games. We have novels and tv for that. 
    That's the problem.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone likes the brain dead boredom that you do.
    But they're stuck with it because that's all that's available.

    Worse, young gamers are being sucked into this psychological manipulation and may be affected by it in broader terms. Developing lazy thought processes. That's not a good thing except for the people who want to control such people for their own profit. Much like this gaming situation and the cash shops and all.

    Once upon a time....

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    edited December 2017
    Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.

    Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

     well, in 99% of the games, it is about fighting something. Even the fetching part is kind of incidental. 

    So what is the problem if the combat part is made fun? It is not like we need a good story or deep characterization in games. We have novels and tv for that. 
    That's the problem.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone likes the brain dead boredom that you do.
    But they're stuck with it because that's all that's available.

    Worse, young gamers are being sucked into this psychological manipulation and may be affected by it in broader terms. Developing lazy thought processes. That's not a good thing except for the people who want to control such people for their own profit. Much like this gaming situation and the cash shops and all.
    It is only a problem for those looking for more than that, which may not be as large of an audience as one might hope.

    In any case, options are available for those that wish for more, provided they don't take the easy way out of looking for solutions online. DDO is good for dungeon related puzzles. TSW/SWL are good for those looking for a variety of puzzles where the solutions aren't presented on in game platters. Those that want it can get it.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.

    Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.

    D&D Online ?...... No can do anymore. 

    It's been made simple and easy for the past 5 years, no challenge at all for groups.  Groups can fly through dungeons so fast it would make your head spin. The game is populated in the very early levels but once you get to the zone package cash-grab content it's dried up because no one is paying for anything but the max level fans.  

    Don't need a lecture on D&D Online, it was one of my favorites back in the day.  Again, can someone name at least one mmo ?
    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one.

    Anyway, what may be the most recent game where one could get the kind of experience you suggest is Dungeons and Dragons Online, if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs.
    "Your pet definition of what constitutes an MMORPG isn't the only one."

    Yeah, but they're only making the one.

    "if you play with those fresh to the game without looking up walkthroughs."

    Are you listening to yourself?
    That's fine for Single Player Games, but MMO's are social.
    Lets break that idea down to small group centered games, "Mulit-Player", and look at your comment.
    So a group of 8 players get together and some of them use walkthroughs and some don't.
    They soon split up.
    Those that do walk through the content and either have to wait for those who don't use it, or move on to the next grind.
    The others, next time around, most of them are most likely to join the group that does use the walkthroughs.
    And those who don't fall even farther behind the others.

    It's human nature to both:
    -take the easier way if available,
    -and to want to keep up with the Jones's.

    But that means boring, dead brain game play.
    Eye candy is the only thing of real interest.
    And badges, sort of like Barney Fife's bullet. Pretty meaningless.

    Once upon a time....

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

     well, in 99% of the games, it is about fighting something. Even the fetching part is kind of incidental. 

    So what is the problem if the combat part is made fun? It is not like we need a good story or deep characterization in games. We have novels and tv for that. 
    That's the problem.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone likes the brain dead boredom that you do.
    But they're stuck with it because that's all that's available.

    Worse, young gamers are being sucked into this psychological manipulation and may be affected by it in broader terms. Developing lazy thought processes. That's not a good thing except for the people who want to control such people for their own profit. Much like this gaming situation and the cash shops and all.

    lol .. not your preference and you belittle it? So if you don't like super hero movies, you trash talk them too.

    Way to be the elitist and try to dictate what is not "brain dead boredom". 

    You just can't accept gamers like action combat, can you? Well, look at all the shooters .. don't tell me no one is having fun, and they are just dying to become you, and do nothing but complain about how dumb gaming is.

    I am glad that devs are not dumb enough to listen to you.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Bah. PvP is just "go fetch dead people." lol

    Nah, the spirit of the point is the PvE, the content, rather than the player to player interactions. If you get my drift.

     well, in 99% of the games, it is about fighting something. Even the fetching part is kind of incidental. 

    So what is the problem if the combat part is made fun? It is not like we need a good story or deep characterization in games. We have novels and tv for that. 
    That's the problem.
    I find it hard to believe that everyone likes the brain dead boredom that you do.
    But they're stuck with it because that's all that's available.

    Worse, young gamers are being sucked into this psychological manipulation and may be affected by it in broader terms. Developing lazy thought processes. That's not a good thing except for the people who want to control such people for their own profit. Much like this gaming situation and the cash shops and all.

    lol .. not your preference and you belittle it? So if you don't like super hero movies, you trash talk them too.

    Way to be the elitist and try to dictate what is not "brain dead boredom". 

    You just can't accept gamers like action combat, can you? Well, look at all the shooters .. don't tell me no one is having fun, and they are just dying to become you, and do nothing but complain about how dumb gaming is.

    I am glad that devs are not dumb enough to listen to you.
    Where did I say anything about movies?
    That's an entirely different medium.

    Gaming is dumb, at present.
    That doesn't mean it's not entertaining for people who want dumb.
    But where's the smart gaming?
    Knowing which buttons to push, both because it's pretty easy to figure out and because it's available on the web, there's not much thinking involved in that.

    Games used to be full of puzzles, because that's "game".
    Now what's left playing games flat out say they don't like puzzles. But what about everyone else? Where's the "game" for them (and me)?
    Running around a zone and pushing a button to watch shit blow up, that may be entertaining for a while but there's no "game" in that. You're not really doing anything besides punching buttons.

    It's brain dead.
    But I see I hit a hot button for you. Since you like buttons so much.

    Look, I never said there wasn't a place for your type of games.
    I don't really care if all you want is brain dead repetition.
    But where's the better gaming for all those who do?
    Where's the alternatives?

    Once upon a time....

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,824
    In White Birch their are whispers and rumors among the people that something evil is happening in Old Tucker Fortress.  They say it's been abandon for more than 40 years but the children that play along the shore of the Valley River have been seeing smoke from the big chimney and others have seen the lights glowing at night.  Could this be the source of the plague that's killing our people ?  

    Stories such as this are common in both modern and old school mmorpgs.  However taking action with the information given is much different today.    



    With old school this would be a memorable experience.  Just by reading this the player would know a major adventure is waiting.  A group would have to be assembled and a few hours would have to be devoted in solving this situation.  The group would understand careful planning would be needed by scouting from above or having a party member with experience on the quest.  

    To get deep inside Old Tucker Fortress, the group would understand a high degree of failure is most likely.  The individual player would expect this and try and try over again or devote much thought in doing it right the first time.  If a player failed they would consider this a challenge they must solve.  Even if it meant daydreaming the next day at work or school and realize "hay, I should ask a Warlock to come along".  

    Gaining experience wouldn't matter....... The challenge of tackling an imposable situation would.  All this at level 26 !  

    This is what separate's an mmorpg from just another game online...... I have to ask, can someone name at least one mmorpg ?         
    Maybe things like this happened years ago before online guides were so popular but they won't be happening in the future. The proliferation of wikis and quest guides means that after the first person figures out the optimal way to do something in game that info is spread at the speed of light to everyone else trying to do it. Blame the devs, blame the players , blame whoever you want but that is the reality in modern games. 

    You're better off looking for adventures like that in single player games. In an mmo there will always be someone in your group that has either done it before or watched a YouTube video about it so all the mystery is gone before you even get started.

    Your absolutely right, 
    I was thinking the same thing as I was typing.  Nothing can be done about it !  

    However: 
    It doesn't stop the fact of what separate's an mmorpg from an online game.

    When an AI can act as GM and craft the adventure for the group that is online then online guides will not help, the first person will only be able to give a general idea of what is going on. Until then we can dream. :D
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