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Epic Reveals It Didn't Know Cheater Was Underage, Settles with Another - Fortnite - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited December 2017 in News & Features Discussion

imageEpic Reveals It Didn't Know Cheater Was Underage, Settles with Another - Fortnite - MMORPG.com

Fortnite News - Epic Games has sent a letter to the court revealing that it did not know that one of the two people it was suing for cheating in Fortnite was underage. According to the letter, the prohibition on using a defendant's name in documentation only applies if it is understood that they are a minor. Going forward, Epic will either redact the defendant's name or simply use initials. This indicates the company will continue its litigation.

Read the full story here



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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,500
    edited December 2017

    DMKano said:

    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"



    Really?



    /facepalm



    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm



    Yet they are probably correct, if they had no way of reasonably knowing the defendents age they did nothing wrong here unless there is some sort of law saying claimants must confirm the age of the defendent before filing suit.

    My guess is there is no such law outside of "if" it is known the defendent is a minor, then initials should or must be used.

    BTW, where I live it is not uncommon for minors names to be used publically, and even put on the news for criminal cases.  Civil suits not so much.



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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,500
    Speaking of the law in question DMCA, here's relevant info on what's being debated in this case.

    False Claims

    Copyright owners may send a "take down" notice to an Internet service provider (ISP) demanding that copyrighted material be removed from a website. The ISP must act quickly to remove or block access to content described in the notice. The person who uploaded the content may respond with a counter notice to restore the content. A person who sends takedowns or counter notices without proof or files frivolous notices faces fines and attorney fees. There is also the possibility of criminal sanctions because DMCA notices are signed under penalty of perjury.

    https://legalbeagle.com/8335872-consequences-dmca-violation.html

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,766
    They should pursue who shares and develops the cheating methods for said game, attack the problems in the source will impact the rest.
    Asm0deus
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,888
    edited December 2017

    DMKano said:

    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"

    Really?

    /facepalm

    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm



    If you don't know and should not have known that she was underage, then you won't be punished.

    Every adult is required to know the law and legislation, act diligently, take reasonable precautions, and even refrain from action if they're uncertain. Not knowing is not enough to absolve you from responsibility. But if you're placed in a situation where even after acting diligently you'd have made the same mistake, then you normally won't be punished.

    Laws are meant to be there so that they can be followed with reasonable effort. It's not in anyone's interests to punish people from failing to do the impossible.
    Kyleran
     
  • rastapastorrastapastor Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Its funny, because this case could be a double edge sword for Epic and any other publisher in the industry if it turns out to be negative for the Epic Games.

    I am very curious how this ends :)
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,100
    Even if the first part does not work the waiver would.
    Chamber of Chains
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    edited December 2017
    They are suing someone who issued a DCMA counterclaim. When a DCMA counterclaim is filled, the law requires you to drop the case or file a lawsuit in under 14 days, but the DCMA counterclaim doesn't have the age of the claimant. No too surprising that they didn't know.
    YashaXRenoakuDakeru[Deleted User]Kyleransschrupp
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    edited December 2017
    azarhal said:
    They are suing someone who issued a DCMA counterclaim. When a DCMA counterclaim is filled, the law requires you to drop the case or file a lawsuit in under 14 days, but the DCMA counterclaim doesn't have the age of the claimant. No too surprising that they didn't know.
    Well yeah, I can understand mistakes happen, the point is teaching the kid never to cheat again in an online game and issue a stern warning, hopefully, when he grows up he will be gaming again without cheating that is the main thing. They didn't say that I am aware of he couldn't play again, they just don't want him cheating. And I personally think banning young lets say 8-15 year old for example for life even after they mature for cheating from a service is a bit much I wouldn't do that myself but I would want to teach them the impact of cheating in online games how it hurts legitimate players because I like games like PUBG and Fortnite.

    When I talk about cheating, in general, I see using an aimbot is clearly cheating, this is not accepting a trade in a game which is part of the game's code to allow players to freely trade. in MMORPG games.

    I was just playing deceit on steam and the cheaters are bad but the game is fun character models are a bit old graphic detailed.
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802
    Why would anyone even defend this 14 year old punk?
    Burn him by the stake for all I care.
    ForgrimmAndistotleKyleran
    Harbinger of Fools
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    edited December 2017
    DMKano said:
    azarhal said:
    They are suing someone who issued a DCMA counterclaim. When a DCMA counterclaim is filled, the law requires you to drop the case or file a lawsuit in under 14 days, but the DCMA counterclaim doesn't have the age of the claimant. No too surprising that they didn't know.
    incorrect as explained here

    "There's more, though. Epic has claimed that after Caleb Rogers filed his put-back notice on Youtube, they were obliged to sue him, or they'd lose the right to sue other people who did the same thing. This is wrong. There is the concept of "genericization" that's part of trademark law, under which someone who consistently fails to enforce their trademarks against competitors can eventually lose their mark. But Epic is suing Caleb Rogers for copyright infringement, which has no such doctrine."

    https://boingboing.net/2017/11/28/fortnite-battle-royale.html

    From DMCA own website: Once the service provider (ISP/OSP) has received a valid DMCA Counterclaim or Counter Notice they must wait 10-14 days before they re-activate or allow access to the claimed infringing content. Unless the copyright owner (complainant) files a order in court against the infringing site owner, the defendant (ISP / OSP subscriber) and demonstrates the order to the ISP/OSP.

    Epic didn't want the video to go back up, that is all there is to it.
    VrikaKyleran
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Kyleran said:
    Speaking of the law in question DMCA, here's relevant info on what's being debated in this case.

    False Claims

    Copyright owners may send a "take down" notice to an Internet service provider (ISP) demanding that copyrighted material be removed from a website. The ISP must act quickly to remove or block access to content described in the notice. The person who uploaded the content may respond with a counter notice to restore the content. A person who sends takedowns or counter notices without proof or files frivolous notices faces fines and attorney fees. There is also the possibility of criminal sanctions because DMCA notices are signed under penalty of perjury.

    https://legalbeagle.com/8335872-consequences-dmca-violation.html

    YouTube?

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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,100
    There's a market for cheat programs because of the cheaters. Make a few examples of the cheaters and it might have some impact on the number of people who choose to cheat being deterred .
    Kyleran
    Chamber of Chains
  • JaimlJaiml Member UncommonPosts: 130
    DMKano said:
    ....

    Epic is now realizing that maybe this wasnt a good idea.

    I don't think they consider it a bad idea.  Look at all the press they are getting.

    How many kids are seeing this and reconsidering cheats?  As young teen would you really want your parents to have to get involved in a lawsuit because you were cheating in a game?

    If that happened to me when I was a kid, my parents would not have counter sued the game company.  They would have thrown my computer out and banned me from games for a year!
    DakeruVrikaRhiow-DarkstepKyleran[Deleted User]
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619

    DMKano said:

    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"



    Really?



    /facepalm



    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm



    This isnt like Roy Moore trying to bang a minor. How would Epic reasonably know the persons age?
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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    MaxBacon said:
    They should pursue who shares and develops the cheating methods for said game, attack the problems in the source will impact the rest.
    He was sharing the cheating methods for the game. That's why they pursued him.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    edited December 2017
    Jaiml said:
    DMKano said:
    ....

    Epic is now realizing that maybe this wasnt a good idea.

    I don't think they consider it a bad idea.  Look at all the press they are getting.

    Anyone who stops playing Epic games because Epic tried to stop someone from sharing cheats is the type of customer they probably don't want anyways.  Those who support cheaters whether directly or by finding excuses to do so (typically with goalpost-moving arguments) are harmful to your business.  Especially F2P games where those types of people aren't ones to pay much in F2P games anyways.
    jimmywolfKyleranCrypticNews
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited December 2017
    DMKano said:
    Jaiml said:
    DMKano said:
    ....

    Epic is now realizing that maybe this wasnt a good idea.

    I don't think they consider it a bad idea.  Look at all the press they are getting.

    How many kids are seeing this and reconsidering cheats?  As young teen would you really want your parents to have to get involved in a lawsuit because you were cheating in a game?

    If that happened to me when I was a kid, my parents would not have counter sued the game company.  They would have thrown my computer out and banned me from games for a year!


    They are not suing him because he cheated, the lawsuit is NOT about cheating

    The lawsuit is due to copyright infringment based on a posted video


    There are 1000s of players running aimbot in Fornite right now, it isnt going to stop cheating. You think Epic is going to file 5000 lawsuits after this fiasco?

    Nope.

    Cheaters didnt get deterred by the lawsuit, just like criminals dont get deterred by crime laws

    Heck last night there was a dude streaming on twitch with aimbot in Fortnite BR

    Majority of gamers dont cheat, but those who do..... they wont stop

    but are there not billions of lets play videos out there from every game imaginable?
    sounds like a lawsuit doomed to fail

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • knightauditknightaudit Member UncommonPosts: 389
    "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know" - Did I miss the change in the law that says Ignorance of the law is not a defense?
    Cheating is Cheating
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    DMKano said:
    Talonsin said:

    DMKano said:

    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"



    Really?



    /facepalm



    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm



    This isnt like Roy Moore trying to bang a minor. How would Epic reasonably know the persons age?

    Before filing a lawsuit -  a company is required to do due diligence which includes making sure the person is not a minor.

    Epic fail(ed) at this
    Yeah, and why did they not put in a age restriction on sign-up at least to make sure they are over 18, in addition to this being easy to get around by a minor anyways it should have asked age at least.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Would love to hear the judges comments on Epic acting having done NO HOMEWORK at all,shotty lawyers as well,as well i am  sure the underage defendant SHOULD have been known and the information was readily available to the lawyers.

    So imo Epic is not off the hook,they are continuing litigation in hopes now counter suits will be dropped as they already knowingly in the face of the law ,broke the law.

    As to the last point "ignorance"they are not claiming ignorance of the law but ignorance of the defendant,now the other defendant has the ability to claim Epic did NO research on this claim what so ever.

    Sure will be fun to hear what proof they have.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Quizar1973Quizar1973 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    DMKano said:
    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"

    Really?

    /facepalm

    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm

    Ive seen people get off in court because he didn't know she was underage........True story
    No one shall Rent space in my head!!!!!  B)
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,003
    Wizardry said:
    Would love to hear the judges comments on Epic acting having done NO HOMEWORK at all,shotty lawyers as well,as well i am  sure the underage defendant SHOULD have been known and the information was readily available to the lawyers.

    So imo Epic is not off the hook,they are continuing litigation in hopes now counter suits will be dropped as they already knowingly in the face of the law ,broke the law.

    As to the last point "ignorance"they are not claiming ignorance of the law but ignorance of the defendant,now the other defendant has the ability to claim Epic did NO research on this claim what so ever.

    Sure will be fun to hear what proof they have.
    isn't part of the issue that the kid was "a kid" and shouldn't have been on youtube as a streamer? Or is that not an issue? I thought it was.
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  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    DMKano said:


    They are not suing him because he cheated, the lawsuit is NOT about cheating

    The lawsuit is due to copyright infringment based on a posted video


    There are 1000s of players running aimbot in Fornite right now, it isnt going to stop cheating. You think Epic is going to file 5000 lawsuits after this fiasco?

    Nope.

    Cheaters didnt get deterred by the lawsuit, just like criminals dont get deterred by crime laws

    Heck last night there was a dude streaming on twitch with aimbot in Fortnite BR

    Majority of gamers dont cheat, but those who do..... they wont stop

    Ofc it won't, don't think anyone thinks that, but it will make others reconsider and definitely make those who thought about posting on Youtube think twice. 

    I would think as long as it deters some people, then Epic would be happy. 
  • Quizar1973Quizar1973 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    DMKano said:
    Quizar1973 said:
    DMKano said:
    Lol - "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know"

    Really?

    /facepalm

    Just imagine every case involving a minor - "well I didn't know she was underage, so I didn't break any laws" /facepalm

    Ive seen people get off in court because he didn't know she was underage........True story
     
    The legal system is far from perfect - and there are cases where guilty get off and innocent serve time - this happens a lot.

    So not surprising at all.

    But none of this matters - Epic knows they goofed up, they should have done their due diligence to make sure they are not suing a minor.

    They are trying to mitigate the mess up, but they well know they screwed up.

    But doesn't many games have it in the EULA that you have to be over 18 to make an account???  Would that be Epic's fault????  If thye kid accepted it and knew that it was there that he had to be 18...Thqats not Epic's fault
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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    knightaudit said:
    "we didn't violate the rule because we didn't know" - Did I miss the change in the law that says Ignorance of the law is not a defense?
    Cheating is Cheating
    however cheating is not illegal in of itself.

    gamers need to check themselves, cheating in a game is not remotely close to criminal crime

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

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