Game Devs need new friends. The last thing I want to see is Devs listening to "testers", because you know those peeps are All-In with the current failing trends for MMO's. Whether that's level grind or PvP centric games, they don't give a shitsky about PTW or many other issues any more than you do.
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
Jeezus! lol. Gamers want actual games worth paying for, but you Dev types insist that's not a real desire. It's little wonder that we're stuck in this declining spiral of uninspired MMO's.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
While we watch this spiralling down, you have the guts to make such claims? I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.
Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere. IT'S DECLINING! Wake up. Read the tea leaves. Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future. (I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
I don't believe anyone has intentionally screwed MMOs. It's part of what happens to things when they become more of a business and cater to mass market and statistics. There seems to be a lot of people out there that don't really care about games but are willing to jump in and shell out some money for an item. These people don't seem to really spend that much time in game or care about the games they are playing. They are just a minor side attraction. This has the unfortunate side effect of ruining a hobby that many people enjoyed and invested time and money into when many others were not interested. Without these people, the games wouldn't exist for mass market today. One might argue most people wouldn't be using computers today if the more geeky introverts hadn't been buying and supporting these products. That is life though. Unless most people stop paying for items in MMOs this is how the MMO and single player game market are going to go.
Unless the person buying the level can do something that I can't when I am at that level that makes playing the game, killing the monsters or killing other players easier then imo there is no advantage.
Some people will always level faster than others. Unless they can actually do something I don't see the advantage.
It's not just about advantage. There's also goals, desires, wants, involved in these persistent worlds (and I use the term "worlds" with more than a bit of mockery). Maybe you just don't care about any of that stuff. But I think it's safe to say that many gamers do.
Edit: Which brings up another point. How fair is it that some players have to pay extra money to have what they want from their game?
Most people's 'wants and goals' can be narrowed down to 'I wanna reach level cap 3 days after launch so I can stand around the bank vault for 2 weeks and look cool, that gives me a 3 week window to accomplish my goals before I quits the game.'
And that's pretty much it. The moment the general community of this genre shows me they actually care about these games and the game's integrity and what not, I might start giving a shit about this nickle and dime issue, until then, it just sounds like an excuse to whine to me. I understand, sometimes it's nice to have a whinge, doesn't mean you actually have any kind of a point though, all things considered.
What great gaming you are describing.
And THAT'S the point.
Yeah it is kinda the point. Most players have shown all they care about is the number next to their heads, and they will do absolutely anything and step over as many people and game mechanics as they have to on their way to that singular goal. If so many people didn't play that way, there'd be little market for this kinda stuff.
And it has so many other negative effects on the games as well. Trivialized lower tier content that may as well not even be there, making it impossible for players who actually enjoy whatever challenge said content may have provided to go back and do it. That's the main thing that shits me to death. I don't rush to end game, I don't buy convenience items, I want to explore all the game has to offer. You lot (in general) make that playstyle as nauseating as possible because they support your playstyle to the detriment of mine. So you'll get no sympathy from me just cause someone 'bought' their way to the top. People who spend and people who rush all have an even hand in destroying the spirit of the games, at least from where I'm sitting.
You are assuming that I'm a gamer that wants the level grind? To rush through that sort of game play? Far from it. From what I gather, I'm very much the same sort as you. I haven't played an MMO in some years (like you, from your next post). I want a great Sandbox, I want exploration to be prime game play, I want "world" and "simulation", I want a great working economy, value to social interactions, interactions with the game world, and I want to be able to go back to places I enjoyed and have it still be meaningful game play. I DO NOT want the fixed content level grind or big power gaps as dividing players, rampant PKing, Zergs, or PTW.
No worries bro, I believe you. I know my post was in response to you but it was a general thing, not directed at you. That's just how I see things from my gameplay. Glad to see there's still others out there.
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
unlike you i in 2012 beat some guy from new zealand that was some said the world strategy champion at some idiot browser game to fnd out he tried ot cheat to beat me....
haha....in elder scrolls onlne it took 7 bots to out due me farming as robin hood for the masses ( gave half my loot to those standing there watch ) and promptly qut there after when a in game gm asked me if i was a bot ..and when i said NO he saw what i did with loot ....he said we need mroe like ya i said no , you need ot fix your game or i quit...the next day they nerfed my horses ability to dosmount and i quit.
there is no envy there is no ego there is cheating and all i see is this is a form of YOU CHEATING at playing the game period
IIS THAT FUCKING HONEST ENOUGH FOR YOU....and the game companies are helping you cheat
You can't handle playing at my level on even ground or you'd fail and that has you irked ....it eats at you makes you want to get and do anything just to win....meanwhile i'm in the mmo sitting on a hill enjoying the view....
I don't believe anyone has intentionally screwed MMOs. It's part of what happens to things when they become more of a business and cater to mass market and statistics. There seems to be a lot of people out there that don't really care about games but are willing to jump in and shell out some money for an item. These people don't seem to really spend that much time in game or care about the games they are playing. They are just a minor side attraction. This has the unfortunate side effect of ruining a hobby that many people enjoyed and invested time and money into when many others were not interested. Without these people, the games wouldn't exist for mass market today. One might argue most people wouldn't be using computers today if the more geeky introverts hadn't been buying and supporting these products. That is life though. Unless most people stop paying for items in MMOs this is how the MMO and single player game market are going to go.
There's some truth to that, Flyte. All things wax and wane, especially in entertainment. But then changes are made and they wax again.
What's really aggravating in the MMO arena is the absolute stickiness of the adherence to what got them in this downward trend. Even faced with the results, the decline, "they" still won't listen and continue the onslaught of PR against reason that's been spelled out to them repeatedly, and for so long. They were warned, and they said "we know better than you." The predicted results are showing (have been for a few years), and their answer is still the same.
I think their next step is to hire Bagdad Bob for PR.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
I wish I could make this whole post my forum signature. You're a champ.
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
unlike you i in 2012 beat some guy from new zealand that was some said the world strategy champion at some idiot browser game to fnd out he tried ot cheat to beat me....
haha....in elder scrolls onlne it took 7 bots to out due me farming as robin hood for the masses ( gave half my loot to those standing there watch ) and promptly qut there after when a in game gm asked me if i was a bot ..and when i said NO he saw what i did with loot ....he said we need mroe like ya i said no , you need ot fix your game or i quit...the next day they nerfed my horses ability to dosmount and i quit.
there is no envy there is no ego there is cheating and all i see is this is a form of YOU CHEATING at playing the game period
IIS THAT FUCKING HONEST ENOUGH FOR YOU....and the game companies are helping you cheat
You can't handle playing at my level on even ground or you'd fail and that has you irked ....it eats at you makes you want to get and do anything just to win....meanwhile i'm in the mmo sitting on a hill enjoying the view....
This whole post reeks of ego.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
I wish I could make this whole post my forum signature. You're a champ.
Oh look. A devotee of this stale fish tank industry.
Look Torval, you got a friend. Another sniper that doesn't like to be faced with the truth. Or maybe the rest of us are just full of "envy", as you put it.
Envious of...exactly what? What do we call it? Failed mimicry? Stagnated whale hunting? Burnt toast? Thrice baked taters? Refried beano? lol
Charging for convinience stuff like extra bag and bank slots is fine in my book. The devs need money to make games and keep them running after all. As long as they don't affect the gamebalance I don't see a problem with it.
Pay2win is a very different matter, it destroy the enjoyment of the game for me. And things they sell that affect the games balance is pay2win, not convineience.
Eh, let them make a game worth paying for. There's a saturation of blandness and more-of-the-same because that's not required. Which also reduces the profit structure of the whole, making "games worth paying for" a risk.
Of course they should make a game worth paying for but I fail to see what that have to do with the games payment model?
The quality of the game doesn't have anything to do with the topic at all since both lousy and great games could sell convienience services. All games need to make money one thing or another and if P2P doesn't cut it and you don't earn enough by box sales you need something else.
And even that is besides the point of the thread, OP said that convinience services is as bad as pay2win and I disagree.
Besides, any game not worth paying for is not worth playing either.
I don't go to movies and pay extra for not having to watch the movie, and i won't do it for games either. It's kind of clever game design that has made this very question relevant, since modern MMOs don't offer much entertaining until the top end content and getting there is often made boring and mind-numbing so that players would pay for boosts to reach it sooner. In movie business this would mean there was a plain blue screen for the first 60 mins before you could see the last 20 mins and see how the movie ends, unless you paid some extra and could skip the tedious blue screen part.
The second question is actually part of the first one. The reason games are getting expansions is to *expand* the original game, not replace it. So the whole content should be equally relevant at all times for both new and old players. If that was the case no one would need to even think of buying boosts or ways to skip content, they could progress on their own pace and re-rolling a new toon was more interesting when all that huge amount of content would once again entertain you.
It funny how people spend money to play games for having fun on their leisure time, and at the same time they consider spending more money for not having to play them because they don't have enough leisure time.
I agree that level boosts is a bit weird, I pay to actually play the game, not to skip it. If leveling is boring you have a big problem with the design of you game and honestly does most MMO endgames rather suck so why anyone would pay to skip the best part of the game is beyond me.
If leveling isn't fun in a game I tend to assume that the endgame is even worse anyways and wont waste time or money on it.
The only possible reason I can think of is for altoholics that must have all their characters max level but are too lazy to play them that way. Leveling is usually so fast that it takes 2 weeks of time to max out a new character nowadays.
But if people want to spend their money on it, fine. It is not like anyone get impressed that you have a max level character like in M59 or EQ in the 90s anymore.
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
unlike you i in 2012 beat some guy from new zealand that was some said the world strategy champion at some idiot browser game to fnd out he tried ot cheat to beat me....
haha....in elder scrolls onlne it took 7 bots to out due me farming as robin hood for the masses ( gave half my loot to those standing there watch ) and promptly qut there after when a in game gm asked me if i was a bot ..and when i said NO he saw what i did with loot ....he said we need mroe like ya i said no , you need ot fix your game or i quit...the next day they nerfed my horses ability to dosmount and i quit.
there is no envy there is no ego there is cheating and all i see is this is a form of YOU CHEATING at playing the game period
IIS THAT FUCKING HONEST ENOUGH FOR YOU....and the game companies are helping you cheat
You can't handle playing at my level on even ground or you'd fail and that has you irked ....it eats at you makes you want to get and do anything just to win....meanwhile i'm in the mmo sitting on a hill enjoying the view....
Deleted for fear of real life MOB types and sickos that run this crap. It ain't worth the risk. I'm done here. Screw it.
So it's Torval's fault. I always knew something dodgy was going on with that lad
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
Jeezus! lol. Gamers want actual games worth paying for, but you Dev types insist that's not a real desire. It's little wonder that we're stuck in this declining spiral of uninspired MMO's.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
While we watch this spiralling down, you have the guts to make such claims? I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.
Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere. IT'S DECLINING! Wake up. Read the tea leaves. Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future. (I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
I"m seriously laughing at you right now. For one, I'm not a game developer. I'm not sure why you thought that because I've never claimed to be one. I move data between medical systems and databases using SQL, Javascript, C#, and some other ETL scripting tools and engines.
I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.
Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like.
You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
Yes, and you can't really complain about it, cause it doesn't affect your ability to compete directly...
It's a bit of a hack to avoid people labeling games P2W out of the gate. The reason why it seems new, is because the newer games being released are designed with this as a business model - unlike older games that got cash shops bolted onto them.
So get used to paying for things like Inventory Space, Crafting Material Bags, etc.
Stupid car analogy: Indy Race - 500 laps to finish (Don't care how many laps the real one is)
Pay to win - $$$ Engine upgrade makes car 30% faster Pay for Convenience - $$$ You start at lap 400 Microtransaction Cosmetics - Cool flaming rabbit paint job (Fosters reference)
... To me P2W and P4C are pretty much the same thing, just with a slight twist ...
yes you are right that is a stupid analogy. . .
paying for a better engine or less laps are BOTH pay for advantage.
a convenience example would be: Pay to have someone else drive your car for 499 laps so you dont have to. . . ( if every car is equal in speed and driver capability, meaning everyone wins after the same amount of time)
the car is the same as everyone else's so no advantage, but you dont have to go through the grind of 499 laps to "win" at the same time as everyone else.
Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.
Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy?
The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'
They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.
As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer.
I was going to use drugs as the analogy, but I figured with the legalization movement gaining significant traction around the world, it would not have been as effective as it would have been, say, 30 years ago. Conversely to drugs, the trafficking of illegal arms is something that most reasonable people would agree is not a good thing and should be not done by either criminals nor the government. In this respect, it's irrelevant what real-world governments may or may not do - it's happening, therefore it's bad. If it helps, substituting illegal arms for slaves yields the same result.
For enforcement and punishment, it really wouldn't be that hard to use an automated detection system to look for value imbalances in trades, mailboxes, etc and flag accounts for review by a human specialist. Depending on how far the developer wanted to go with it, they could also retain trade logs going back several months and potentially ban entire RWT networks by having the human specialist trace the movement of items/gold back through the intermediary accounts from the flagged account.
Perhaps there could even be a reward to players who bring forward information on RWTers (e.g. free week of subscription if your information leads to a ban), which could conceivably spawn entire anti-RWT guilds specializing in conducting sting operations and gathering intelligence for the developers.
In terns of punishment, it would also be relatively easy to issue IP bans (rather than account bans) to accounts that are caught and prevent players from connecting through proxies. You wouldn't even really have to go that far, though, because just a simple account ban would be incredibly damaging to RWTers' profit margin in subscription games, since the developers could simply wait until one day after the month's subscription is paid before banning the account and not refunding the owner.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
If it's really for convenience, it can't be for win. A cosmetic pet never helped you to win any PvE or PvP fight.
The operative unspoken issue here is envy anyway. All of these rants lately lack a serious degree of self honesty. I'm not saying there aren't a few serious problems either, but between a lack of self-honesty and what I call "plank-eye" syndrome (referring to the Biblical parable) we, as a community, miss the point time and again.
Jeezus! lol. Gamers want actual games worth paying for, but you Dev types insist that's not a real desire. It's little wonder that we're stuck in this declining spiral of uninspired MMO's.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
While we watch this spiralling down, you have the guts to make such claims? I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.
Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere. IT'S DECLINING! Wake up. Read the tea leaves. Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future. (I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
I"m seriously laughing at you right now. For one, I'm not a game developer. I'm not sure why you thought that because I've never claimed to be one. I move data between medical systems and databases using SQL, Javascript, C#, and some other ETL scripting tools and engines.
I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.
Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like.
You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
No, I assumed he is in fact a Dev because he said he was. That was some time ago and before they changed the forums over here, so between that and the time lapse I don't think I have a chance of finding it. The games here never change.
Laugh all you want, Torval. Doesn't bother me at all. You know I'll have the last laugh when things go south for the Devs like you. (But I won't really, I think it's a very sad situation.) They're already bad because of the choices made. And getting worse because you all are sticking strong to the only, unimaginative, things you know.
Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.
Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy?
The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'
They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.
As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last.
That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh?
Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.
Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy?
The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'
They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.
As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last.
That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh?
Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
Already there is going to be a certain portion of the player base that's perfectly fine going to a gold seller site or buying a horse off ebay from another player. Pay to win and pay for convenience happens wether the developer sanctions it or not. I would prefer the developer being the one making the money off the 'pay to whatever' because at least there's a chance that money will be reinvested in the game. Not so with the other vultures.
I would much prefer that developers instituted harsh RWT punishments and enforcements.
Look at it this way: if you found out there was an illegal arms smuggler operating somewhere in your town (but you don't know where exactly), would you prefer that the police start investigating and trying to find those responsible, or would you prefer that the government starts selling arms to gangs and cartels to drive the illegal smuggler out of business by offering legitimacy?
The end result of the developers turning a blind eye to RWT and the developers actively engaging in RWT is the same: RWT happens on as large scale. The only thing that stops or diminishes RWT (notice that I'm not saying illegal or unsanctioned RWT, as they are just distinctions without a real difference created by greedy developers/publishers) is the developers cracking down on it.
'harsh RWT punishments and enforcements'
They already have harsh punishments for it, in most games it's an instant ban, I don't know what you'd expect them to do, cut a hand off or what, but that's pretty much the extent of what they can actually do. It just isn't practical to 'enforce' it. If you just happen to catch someone doing it, or if they're dumb and get themselves caught, great. But developers can't really afford to spend money on staff to regularly check for this kind of thing, you have to rely on some sort of detection system and hope for the best. But regardless, it's not sufficient enough to deter the practice.
As for your analogy, that doesn't really work, on any level. Both of those things already do happen lol. The government already does sell arms to terrorist groups and cartels, at least in America they do. And there are plenty of illegal arms dealers that do the same thing. A better analogy would be the war on drugs. Hell yeah I'd rather the government control the drug trade and regulate it rather than encouraging murderous illegal immigrants to come into my country and set up shop and make bank off people's misery like sociopathic vampire pirates. Absolutely. There are thousands of reasons why this would be a preferable evil to what we currently have. And I'm generally a small government guy, but there some things that are so dangerous to the general populace that there is just no other clear answer.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
It's not my way of thinking that's encouraging the practice at all, I can only rationalize a design decision someone else is making. I already touched on this earlier in the thread. Are you the kind of person who rushes to end game at ludicrous speed? Answer yourself honestly. If the answer is yes, and there's a very high chance that is the case on average, then you're the problem. You're creating the climate where this kind of practice is highly desirable and profitable. It's really as simple as that tbh. I mostly just play Dark Souls type games these days. In these games the fights are urgent and impactful from the first stage on, and there is as much a sense of accomplishment from killing the third boss as there is the last.
That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh?
Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
It seems like you meant to respond to someone else - we were arguing about whether selling gold/items in the cash shop is a good thing. We were never talking about progression systems and playstyles.
You can't seperate the two. The reason why we have cash shops is because they're profitable, the reason why they're profitable is you've cultivated the landscape to incentivize vertical progression as fast as possible. There's basically one playstyle in MMO's these days. All a cash shop does is make that playstyle more accessible. That makes it an easy decision for developers to have a cash shop. If there were 20 different playstyles to worry about, it makes it much harder to just throw shit up for sale on the cash shop that's going to have mass appeal, they'd have to go back to doing their jobs and make some fucking content.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
I'm cringing at you right now. Clearly he meant 'game dev type' in a sarcastic way, but you had to go into such detail about your fringe tech job cause why? Ugh.
Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like.
You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
Who cares what "vets" are doing. If people think being a "vet" means a thing, then I think it's time for a reality check.
If you had read the posts after you'd have seen I don't use level boots (except GW2 because I don't really play it) and I rarely use xp boosts. Leveling is one of my favorite things. I never said I was happy with convenience items. I don't think I expressed feeling about them at all. You did.
I think your perspective is out of whack because my "needs" aren't being met. If the gaming landscape were being developed around my needs it would look a lot different. And if I were going to make games they would be about what I want to do in a game. I'm not interested in making games that other people want to play how they want to play.
I like to game and I can find a lot of fun gaming out there. Am I supposed to feel bad about that because you can't or won't or don't want to? Maybe create a friendlier community and other people will start caring. That's what fans of cult niche games have done over the decades. I'll say the same thing I told Amaranthar, make people want to join your cause not try to punish them for not sharing your specific interests.
You don't have to care that vets reject the casual market, you've already said you're perfectly fine in today's market, so why would you? As long as casuals still care about the games then you'll be okay, until they move on to something else because the MMORPG genre isn't producing anything, then what? It seems like you're trying to have both things at once. You want to project the notion that you're happy with today's MMO roster and also at the same time that you desire some kind of sophistication. Yeah I call bullshit. You can't really have it both ways. You either enjoy vapid F2P spankfest's or you expect more. I expect more so you can have that. It's that simple. Enjoy.
Just lol, it's a really pretentious notion that me or anyone else on this forum has some kind of 'cause'. I already told you, I game just fine I just don't like the games you like. I don't have to be 'friendly' about it, I don't need you or anyone else to 'care' about anything, you're looking out for your own interests and I'm looking out for mine. I don't know why you'd feel to tell him that or much less repeat it to someone else, were not looking to shut down your games, we just don't like them, why so threatened? You really feel like you're being 'punished' for liking something because we don't like it? Good god man, who gives a shit?
I always figured it was for people that don't play the game regularly but want to do the latest xpac with their gaming friends and run raids till they bore of it. They'll pop back in when a new xpac is out. There's nothing wrong with that imo.
I usually babble against it due to the overall effect, not the option itself. As a story player I'm more with Loke, the journey is what matters, not the goal at the end, and while personally I believe it is stupid to pay just to skip all of it, I'm all about options: if someone wants that, who am I to say otherwise? (the very first thing you learn in the mmo healing school, you can't outheal stupid )
My problem is not the (non-existing) "win" in it, or that they get there quicker, etc. my problem is how it effects the game, or games overall. That's what I raised voice about years ago (I guess around 2010, since the first time I met this option was in AoC), and you can already see on the newer games how it turned out... since there's an option for jump ahead, and there's an incentive with it for the devs to sell that option, the journey became irrevelant. You see games with very short or even ignorable leveling part (which one promoted "endgame starts right after the character creation", I wonder? ) when there's no boosts, or from the other side you have artifically boring and tedious and grindy leveling just to sell more jump-ahead options.
Either way, the focus shifted from the world to the endgame grind, and since I never was a "life start at level cap" kind of a player, I don't like it. But since I can't change anything about it... I mostly just ignore it.
With an attitude like that why would I care that your MMO world is in a
declining spiral? You're mad because people are playing and paying for games they like instead of those games failing. You're
mad because no one will make your perfect game and apparently you feel
it is the responsibility of the community to make that happen for you.
No one owes you anything. If you don't like the options go out and make it happen. Find other people like you and show the industry there is money in making a game for you. It can be done. There are indie projects that have sprung up in response to community desire for old school gaming.
Pro-tip: taking it out on others and blaming doesn't get your wish-world built. It just makes those people you're rude to even less interested in supporting you and your goal.
I wish I could make this whole post my forum signature. You're a champ.
Oh look. A devotee of this stale fish tank industry.
Look Torval, you got a friend. Another sniper that doesn't like to be faced with the truth. Or maybe the rest of us are just full of "envy", as you put it.
Envious of...exactly what? What do we call it? Failed mimicry? Stagnated whale hunting? Burnt toast? Thrice baked taters? Refried beano? lol
U mad bro? Cuz you seem mad.
Seriously though, me buying an xp scroll in ESO to try out a class I haven't tried before affects you in ZERO ways. I work 50 - 70 hrs a week so my limited time in game is valuable to me. You play the games that cater to what you like and I'll play the ones that cater to things I like, thats the whole point of @Torval post.
Yeah buddy I think the whole thread is about people complaining about a particular playstyle being catered to over their own. The difference is most people here dont talk about their playstyle on every freaking thread on this site like you do. This thread is actually about that this time, hence why were talking about it.
Of course they do. In fact, you just mentioned that people are complaining their playstyle not being catered too.
and isn't it fair game to point out that no one has to cater to them? After this is also a free world to post whatever opinion we have on the industry.
Comments
The last thing I want to see is Devs listening to "testers", because you know those peeps are All-In with the current failing trends for MMO's. Whether that's level grind or PvP centric games, they don't give a shitsky about PTW or many other issues any more than you do.
Once upon a time....
I'm mad because you all have screwed the MMO scene by selling out to the base desires, instead of being inspired to make better MMO's.
Yeah, there are happy gamers in your sphere.
IT'S DECLINING!
Wake up. Read the tea leaves.
Well, never mind, it doesn't matter. You'll be out anyways. You've got no future.
(I can't believe I have to spell that out for you.)
Once upon a time....
haha....in elder scrolls onlne it took 7 bots to out due me farming as robin hood for the masses ( gave half my loot to those standing there watch ) and promptly qut there after when a in game gm asked me if i was a bot ..and when i said NO he saw what i did with loot ....he said we need mroe like ya i said no , you need ot fix your game or i quit...the next day they nerfed my horses ability to dosmount and i quit.
there is no envy there is no ego there is cheating and all i see is this is a form of YOU CHEATING at playing the game period
IIS THAT FUCKING HONEST ENOUGH FOR YOU....and the game companies are helping you cheat
You can't handle playing at my level on even ground or you'd fail and that has you irked ....it eats at you makes you want to get and do anything just to win....meanwhile i'm in the mmo sitting on a hill enjoying the view....
All things wax and wane, especially in entertainment. But then changes are made and they wax again.
What's really aggravating in the MMO arena is the absolute stickiness of the adherence to what got them in this downward trend. Even faced with the results, the decline, "they" still won't listen and continue the onslaught of PR against reason that's been spelled out to them repeatedly, and for so long.
They were warned, and they said "we know better than you."
The predicted results are showing (have been for a few years), and their answer is still the same.
I think their next step is to hire Bagdad Bob for PR.
Once upon a time....
A devotee of this stale fish tank industry.
Look Torval, you got a friend. Another sniper that doesn't like to be faced with the truth.
Or maybe the rest of us are just full of "envy", as you put it.
Envious of...exactly what? What do we call it?
Failed mimicry?
Stagnated whale hunting?
Burnt toast?
Thrice baked taters?
Refried beano?
lol
Once upon a time....
The quality of the game doesn't have anything to do with the topic at all since both lousy and great games could sell convienience services. All games need to make money one thing or another and if P2P doesn't cut it and you don't earn enough by box sales you need something else.
And even that is besides the point of the thread, OP said that convinience services is as bad as pay2win and I disagree.
Besides, any game not worth paying for is not worth playing either.
If leveling isn't fun in a game I tend to assume that the endgame is even worse anyways and wont waste time or money on it.
The only possible reason I can think of is for altoholics that must have all their characters max level but are too lazy to play them that way. Leveling is usually so fast that it takes 2 weeks of time to max out a new character nowadays.
But if people want to spend their money on it, fine. It is not like anyone get impressed that you have a max level character like in M59 or EQ in the 90s anymore.
I'm done here.
Screw it.
Once upon a time....
Anyways, you're happy with pay for convenience options in games, Im willing to tolerate it, and other dude really doesn't like it. Those are all valid opinions about where the genre is heading, it's a contentious issue because we all have different expectations, and those expectations mostly seem reasonable. Yours are being met, great. But let's not pretend like MMO vets aren't heading off to play single player titles because the difficulty level and accomplishment culture is not there in MMO's right now. It's not like we're not gaming, we're just not content to play that ultra casual shit that you apparently like.
You're right though, there's never been more options in gaming, the casuals will only stick around to keep you afloat for so long. Without real innovation in this genre it will be phased out, just like serious gamers are being phased out. MMO's are still a niche market, one that is barren of noteworthy development and has been for several years. I'm really puzzled why you think it's flourishing. With nothing new and pretty to keep the 'horde' pleased and buttered up, you have no where to go but down.
It's a bit of a hack to avoid people labeling games P2W out of the gate. The reason why it seems new, is because the newer games being released are designed with this as a business model - unlike older games that got cash shops bolted onto them.
So get used to paying for things like Inventory Space, Crafting Material Bags, etc.
paying for a better engine or less laps are BOTH pay for advantage.
a convenience example would be: Pay to have someone else drive your car for 499 laps so you dont have to. . . ( if every car is equal in speed and driver capability, meaning everyone wins after the same amount of time)
the car is the same as everyone else's so no advantage, but you dont have to go through the grind of 499 laps to "win" at the same time as everyone else.
For enforcement and punishment, it really wouldn't be that hard to use an automated detection system to look for value imbalances in trades, mailboxes, etc and flag accounts for review by a human specialist. Depending on how far the developer wanted to go with it, they could also retain trade logs going back several months and potentially ban entire RWT networks by having the human specialist trace the movement of items/gold back through the intermediary accounts from the flagged account.
Perhaps there could even be a reward to players who bring forward information on RWTers (e.g. free week of subscription if your information leads to a ban), which could conceivably spawn entire anti-RWT guilds specializing in conducting sting operations and gathering intelligence for the developers.
In terns of punishment, it would also be relatively easy to issue IP bans (rather than account bans) to accounts that are caught and prevent players from connecting through proxies. You wouldn't even really have to go that far, though, because just a simple account ban would be incredibly damaging to RWTers' profit margin in subscription games, since the developers could simply wait until one day after the month's subscription is paid before banning the account and not refunding the owner.
Sadly though, until defeatist thinking like yours ceases in MMORPG players, we'll be stuck with having developers partaking in the action we didn't want to exist in the first place.
The games here never change.
Laugh all you want, Torval. Doesn't bother me at all.
You know I'll have the last laugh when things go south for the Devs like you.
(But I won't really, I think it's a very sad situation.)
They're already bad because of the choices made. And getting worse because you all are sticking strong to the only, unimaginative, things you know.
Once upon a time....
That's exactly contrary to the way you probably want MMO's to be. You want dat endgame and quick smart. lol Well okay, so don't be surprised when they offer ways to make that easier for you, I guess. That's not defeatism, it's just logic. Whereas if my playstyle were influential to design, the developers would ask how they can make level 30 dungeons as worthwhile and engaging as level 50 dungeons. Less incentive to make it easier to skip over them with convenience items if it's one of the best parts of the game then huh?
Design should be the deterent, naivety isn't helping much.
You obviously just want to lay everything at the foot of developers and say 'well cash shop/gold selling bad'. Okay, I'm sure that will be really convincing, rather than looking at the root of the problem and why these things exist in the first place.
You don't have to care that vets reject the casual market, you've already said you're perfectly fine in today's market, so why would you? As long as casuals still care about the games then you'll be okay, until they move on to something else because the MMORPG genre isn't producing anything, then what? It seems like you're trying to have both things at once. You want to project the notion that you're happy with today's MMO roster and also at the same time that you desire some kind of sophistication. Yeah I call bullshit. You can't really have it both ways. You either enjoy vapid F2P spankfest's or you expect more. I expect more so you can have that. It's that simple. Enjoy.
Just lol, it's a really pretentious notion that me or anyone else on this forum has some kind of 'cause'. I already told you, I game just fine I just don't like the games you like. I don't have to be 'friendly' about it, I don't need you or anyone else to 'care' about anything, you're looking out for your own interests and I'm looking out for mine. I don't know why you'd feel to tell him that or much less repeat it to someone else, were not looking to shut down your games, we just don't like them, why so threatened? You really feel like you're being 'punished' for liking something because we don't like it? Good god man, who gives a shit?
My problem is not the (non-existing) "win" in it, or that they get there quicker, etc. my problem is how it effects the game, or games overall. That's what I raised voice about years ago (I guess around 2010, since the first time I met this option was in AoC), and you can already see on the newer games how it turned out... since there's an option for jump ahead, and there's an incentive with it for the devs to sell that option, the journey became irrevelant. You see games with very short or even ignorable leveling part (which one promoted "endgame starts right after the character creation", I wonder?
Either way, the focus shifted from the world to the endgame grind, and since I never was a "life start at level cap" kind of a player, I don't like it. But since I can't change anything about it... I mostly just ignore it.
Seriously though, me buying an xp scroll in ESO to try out a class I haven't tried before affects you in ZERO ways. I work 50 - 70 hrs a week so my limited time in game is valuable to me. You play the games that cater to what you like and I'll play the ones that cater to things I like, thats the whole point of @Torval post.
and isn't it fair game to point out that no one has to cater to them? After this is also a free world to post whatever opinion we have on the industry.