I agree with the No LFG/LFR crowd. Having to look for people to create a PUG is what allowed you to meet new people in the game. Automating it took a chunk of the interactivity between players out of the game.
I also don't want to see cross-server stuff (battlegroups). Servers should be their own communities, where you learn who is good and who is not. This goes for both individuals and guilds.
I think all the bugs should be fixed, and I don't even mind if they use updated graphics and other modern under-the-hood things.
As it is, I'll wait and see until they formally introduce the gameplay and mechanics (rather than merely announce it) before I decide if Classic is something I want to try out or not.
Cross server battlegrounds were a vanilla feature. It wouldn't be vanilla without them.
It was added few months before TBC was launched, so you can hardly count it as a Vanilla feature.
A lot of people don't want cross server, but I assume those people never played PvP on low pop server then. Playing vs only a single team for months till you get rank 14 wasn't the most exciting thing. When they added cross server it got really interesting.
It was in patch 1.12, a vanilla patch. It was the last patch before BC, but it was still a vanilla patch the same as every one before it. There were two more bug/balance patches after 1.12 as well. BC patches start with 2.x.x. The cross realm dungeon finder wasn't published until BC.
The cross realm functionality was only for battlegrounds and not for dungeons or anything else.
I don't care either way but people are making points about the dungeon finder ruining the game but it didn't. Cross realm happened before the DF and instances before that. Instancing is more of a community killer than instant ports for your party, but I don't think people can be honest with themselves because then they don't have a bogeyman to blame for the shift in how people like to game.
Where are you getting that Dungeon Finder was added in The Burning Crusade? It was added in Wrath of the Lich King. So was Raid Finder.
Also, it's clear that you believe Dungeon Finder / Raid Finder didn't have a negative impact on the game, but you're in the minority on that one and it has nothing to do with people not being honest with themselves. Some of us have played on Private Servers so we know exactly what those tools did to the game and how much better the game can be without them.
LFD was WoTLK, LFR didn't release till Cataclysm and the cross realm BG's were released pretty much at the end of Vanilla going in to Burning Crusade.
I agree with the No LFG/LFR crowd. Having to look for people to create a PUG is what allowed you to meet new people in the game. Automating it took a chunk of the interactivity between players out of the game.
I also don't want to see cross-server stuff (battlegroups). Servers should be their own communities, where you learn who is good and who is not. This goes for both individuals and guilds.
I think all the bugs should be fixed, and I don't even mind if they use updated graphics and other modern under-the-hood things.
As it is, I'll wait and see until they formally introduce the gameplay and mechanics (rather than merely announce it) before I decide if Classic is something I want to try out or not.
Cross server battlegrounds were a vanilla feature. It wouldn't be vanilla without them.
It was added few months before TBC was launched, so you can hardly count it as a Vanilla feature.
A lot of people don't want cross server, but I assume those people never played PvP on low pop server then. Playing vs only a single team for months till you get rank 14 wasn't the most exciting thing. When they added cross server it got really interesting.
It was in patch 1.12, a vanilla patch. It was the last patch before BC, but it was still a vanilla patch the same as every one before it. There were two more bug/balance patches after 1.12 as well. BC patches start with 2.x.x. The cross realm dungeon finder wasn't published until BC.
The cross realm functionality was only for battlegrounds and not for dungeons or anything else.
I don't care either way but people are making points about the dungeon finder ruining the game but it didn't. Cross realm happened before the DF and instances before that. Instancing is more of a community killer than instant ports for your party, but I don't think people can be honest with themselves because then they don't have a bogeyman to blame for the shift in how people like to game.
Where are you getting that Dungeon Finder was added in The Burning Crusade? It was added in Wrath of the Lich King. So was Raid Finder.
Also, it's clear that you believe Dungeon Finder / Raid Finder didn't have a negative impact on the game, but you're in the minority on that one and it has nothing to do with people not being honest with themselves. Some of us have played on Private Servers so we know exactly what those tools did to the game and how much better the game can be without them.
LFD was WoTLK, LFR didn't release till Cataclysm and the cross realm BG's were released pretty much at the end of Vanilla going in to Burning Crusade.
Doh! You're right. Raid Finder was Cataclysm. My bad. My memory of the changes over time has begun to blend together I guess. That's probably what happened with Torval as well.
I actually thought Raid Finder didn't appear until MoP. lol
I agree with the No LFG/LFR crowd. Having to look for people to create a PUG is what allowed you to meet new people in the game. Automating it took a chunk of the interactivity between players out of the game.
I also don't want to see cross-server stuff (battlegroups). Servers should be their own communities, where you learn who is good and who is not. This goes for both individuals and guilds.
I think all the bugs should be fixed, and I don't even mind if they use updated graphics and other modern under-the-hood things.
As it is, I'll wait and see until they formally introduce the gameplay and mechanics (rather than merely announce it) before I decide if Classic is something I want to try out or not.
Cross server battlegrounds were a vanilla feature. It wouldn't be vanilla without them.
It was added few months before TBC was launched, so you can hardly count it as a Vanilla feature.
A lot of people don't want cross server, but I assume those people never played PvP on low pop server then. Playing vs only a single team for months till you get rank 14 wasn't the most exciting thing. When they added cross server it got really interesting.
It was in patch 1.12, a vanilla patch. It was the last patch before BC, but it was still a vanilla patch the same as every one before it. There were two more bug/balance patches after 1.12 as well. BC patches start with 2.x.x. The cross realm dungeon finder wasn't published until BC.
The cross realm functionality was only for battlegrounds and not for dungeons or anything else.
I don't care either way but people are making points about the dungeon finder ruining the game but it didn't. Cross realm happened before the DF and instances before that. Instancing is more of a community killer than instant ports for your party, but I don't think people can be honest with themselves because then they don't have a bogeyman to blame for the shift in how people like to game.
Where are you getting that Dungeon Finder was added in The Burning Crusade? It was added in Wrath of the Lich King. So was Raid Finder.
Also, it's clear that you believe Dungeon Finder / Raid Finder didn't have a negative impact on the game, but you're in the minority on that one and it has nothing to do with people not being honest with themselves. Some of us have played on Private Servers so we know exactly what those tools did to the game and how much better the game can be without them.
LFD was WoTLK, LFR didn't release till Cataclysm and the cross realm BG's were released pretty much at the end of Vanilla going in to Burning Crusade.
Doh! You're right. Raid Finder was Cataclysm. My bad. My memory of the changes over time has begun to blend together I guess. That's probably what happened with Torval as well.
In TBC there was a UI tool called Looking For Group. You could advertise a group that was. It was not cross server, did not port you to a dungeon. It was the step before RDF that dropped in Wrath.
Vanilla WoW has more irrelevant classes then relevant ones... Paladin, Druid and Shaman are limited to 1 viable talent tree and even that is stretch when compared to some other classes. Not to mention the Rock, Paper, Scissors, Rogue. Where Rogue beats everything. I understand Vanilla WoW was great... at the time. And I will probably check it out, but I am willing to bet that subs will not meet Blizzards expectations.
Vanilla WoW has more irrelevant classes then relevant ones... Paladin, Druid and Shaman are limited to 1 viable talent tree and even that is stretch when compared to some other classes. Not to mention the Rock, Paper, Scissors, Rogue. Where Rogue beats everything. I understand Vanilla WoW was great... at the time. And I will probably check it out, but I am willing to bet that subs will not meet Blizzards expectations.
If Blizzard dev quotes about their expectations are anything to go off of, you will assuredly lose that bet. Brack literally put the low end expectation at "tens of players."
Vanilla WoW has more irrelevant classes then relevant ones... Paladin, Druid and Shaman are limited to 1 viable talent tree and even that is stretch when compared to some other classes. Not to mention the Rock, Paper, Scissors, Rogue. Where Rogue beats everything. I understand Vanilla WoW was great... at the time. And I will probably check it out, but I am willing to bet that subs will not meet Blizzards expectations.
If Blizzard dev quotes about their expectations are anything to go off of, you will assuredly lose that bet. Brack literally put the low end expectation at "tens of players."
Dev's don't make business decisions for Blizzard. When the people at the big table see the numbers they may have a different opinion on the matter. Blizzard is not big on charity. I have seen them make an in game pet every now and again to sell to players where all proceeds go to disaster relief. But never have I seen them match those proceeds. I could be wrong I don't watch every move they make cause I don't care enough. But when all is said and done they are looking to make money off this venture.
But despite what I say I hope Vanilla does well. And I intend to check it out for nostalgia sake. I just feel like they could do something to make irrelevant classes shine a bit more. But just saying that is probably enough to enrage the fan boys.
But despite what I say I hope Vanilla does well. And I intend to check it out for nostalgia sake. I just feel like they could do something to make irrelevant classes shine a bit more. But just saying that is probably enough to enrage the fan boys.
I personally agree with the idea of tweaking stat numbers to help the specs who struggled in vanilla. I think changing mechanics wholesale is a mistake, but helping nudge an overall DPS output or something, I would encourage Blizzard to look into this.
But despite what I say I hope Vanilla does well. And I intend to check it out for nostalgia sake. I just feel like they could do something to make irrelevant classes shine a bit more. But just saying that is probably enough to enrage the fan boys.
I personally agree with the idea of tweaking stat numbers to help the specs who struggled in vanilla. I think changing mechanics wholesale is a mistake, but helping nudge an overall DPS output or something, I would encourage Blizzard to look into this.
I read an article that said class tweaking was actually brought up my a moderator on the official WoW forums. The forum thread had to be closed down due to people going ballistic over the idea and flaming anyone who was for the idea of class changes. Official response was that "they saw that the majority of players are opposed to class tweaking" and that they would keep that in mind going forward. So I think it is safe to assume they will not be making any class changes.
But despite what I say I hope Vanilla does well. And I intend to check it out for nostalgia sake. I just feel like they could do something to make irrelevant classes shine a bit more. But just saying that is probably enough to enrage the fan boys.
I personally agree with the idea of tweaking stat numbers to help the specs who struggled in vanilla. I think changing mechanics wholesale is a mistake, but helping nudge an overall DPS output or something, I would encourage Blizzard to look into this.
I read an article that said class tweaking was actually brought up my a moderator on the official WoW forums. The forum thread had to be closed down due to people going ballistic over the idea and flaming anyone who was for the idea of class changes. Official response was that "they saw that the majority of players are opposed to class tweaking" and that they would keep that in mind going forward. So I think it is safe to assume they will not be making any class changes.
No doubt it would meet heated debate.
However, so long as the changes aren't groundshaking, I'd surmise most players wouldn't even notice until well after 60s have been logged and min/maxing has begun.
I'm not sure, in the end, it would really result in an exodus. Changing entire mechanics would be more likely, as that would change the way the game plays and feels for certain classes.
LFG was what turned cities into desolate wastelands, with the exception of the bank and AH areas. I loved Vanilla but I actually thought WoW's heyday was during BC, so if I had a preference between the two, it would be a "classic" BC release and no further. I guess I just have a soft spot for Shattrath City and I loved it when it was bustling and active. Now, when I get the urge to re-open my sub and take a jaunt through the game, Shatt is just a sad, lonely place to visit.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I am looking forward to Classic WoW. But not some hybrid lobby game with "throw backs" to the old WoW. Either do classic or don't bother.........Well, that's just me.
To those who appear to be naysayers to the idea, I have a simple question. Given that WoW is still actively updated with a big new expansion coming out, why are you so against it? You clearly won't play it, so how would its existence in any way inconvenience or otherwise harm you?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
You could put in WoW exactly as it was the day it released in 2004, for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
You could put in WoW exactly as it was the day before BC released, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
You could pick any single update/upgrade/change the game as made since release to implement, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
This is a no-win proposition, there is absolutely no way you can make everyone happy, and I don't even think a reasonable middle ground exists. That is probably why Blizzard tried to stay clear of it.
Speaking just for myself - I'm totally glad I was there when WoW opened their doors. I'm glad to have experienced a lot of the Vanilla experience. I am equally glad that games have evolved to be better and I never have to do that again.
"If anything having the Group Finder system in a Classic WoW server should definitely make our lives better."
A MILLION TIMES NO! Group/raid finders are one of the worst things in the genre.
Isn't part of the appeal of an MMO the huge social aspect? If you think yes, then why do you want it to be replaced by an automated system? I actually remember my server back in Vanilla as a community in which people remembered each other and developed friendships and rivalries. I still remember many names and fun times, despite it being over a decade ago.
Do you remember the name of the last person you were grouped with by a group finder or matchmaker?
Do you remember the name of the last person you were grouped with by a group finder or matchmaker?
I don't remember the random pugs I picked up without the LFG tool anymore than I remember the random pugs I get with it. If someone isn't in my guild, I could care less about making friends with them after the run is over. That hasn't changed from Vanilla with the onset of the LFG tool. Vanilla still had douches ruin groups and people go AFK mid-run, and it was exponentially harder to find someone to fill that slot and then run to the dungeon.
You could put in WoW exactly as it was the day it released in 2004, for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
You could put in WoW exactly as it was the day before BC released, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
You could pick any single update/upgrade/change the game as made since release to implement, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
This is a no-win proposition, there is absolutely no way you can make everyone happy, and I don't even think a reasonable middle ground exists. That is probably why Blizzard tried to stay clear of it.
Speaking just for myself - I'm totally glad I was there when WoW opened their doors. I'm glad to have experienced a lot of the Vanilla experience. I am equally glad that games have evolved to be better and I never have to do that again.
Hopefully not. To say that one particular thing "made" vanilla is incorrect. It was the overall design philosophy of building a treacherous world and allowing players to form groups to traverse it that was the essence of what made vanilla WoW great.
The contrast between Legion and vanilla WoW perfectly highlights the differences behind the philosophies of modern MMORPGs and those that gave the genre life to begin with.
If they change the UI, or add crafting bags, or update the graphics, or tweak numbers to help all specs become more equally relevant... None of that violates or compromises the underlying design philosophy that made vanilla WoW great. It also wouldn't, to me, even be changes worth mentioning as "this isn't vanilla WoW." Reducing the difficulty of dungeons, adding lobby-style dungeon tools, reducing the open world to what feels more like a child's playground than a treacherous fantasy world worth exploring... Those are the changes that would destroy the classic experience imo.
Do not change the 40 man raid, I repeat do not change the 40 man raid. This is one area that should not be changed at all. Part of the fun in classic Warcraft was trying to get through Molten Core and Blackwing Lair with a huge group."
No, just no.
I was an officer during MC / BWL / AQ 40 / Naxxramas and i can tell you that the effort and logistics needed to bring and manage 40 man raids was a nightmare. Yes, we did it and had fun but this was 11 - 12 years ago. Now, 12 years older me and others have absolute no mood to do this all over again. 40 man raid rosters have a mostly negative impact on guild management as you need at least 50 - 55 active raiders. And you have to account for class balance as well. Way too time consuming and the vast majority of us simply do not have the time any more.
25 man raids is the sweet spot. You can enjoy the vanilla content without bloated guild rosters.
Well, these raids aren't exactly new and the servers should have much larger sizes than original vanilla had. 40 man raids ARE vanilla and should not be changed.
My opinion is that these servers should be pretty strictly vanilla. They can gauge the reception and consider adding a modified vanilla server after that.
The community is what defined Classic WoW more than the game itself. If that community can come together again 'without' the interference of the crowd that came once MMOs became more popular then it might be able to recapture the classic moments. If modern WoW players are all over it then it won't be the same.
Lol. Get ready for - "LFM MC Run, tier 3 required, you will be checked". This is community for you in a nutshell.
But despite what I say I hope Vanilla does well. And I intend to check it out for nostalgia sake. I just feel like they could do something to make irrelevant classes shine a bit more. But just saying that is probably enough to enrage the fan boys.
I personally agree with the idea of tweaking stat numbers to help the specs who struggled in vanilla. I think changing mechanics wholesale is a mistake, but helping nudge an overall DPS output or something, I would encourage Blizzard to look into this.
I don't think the game was as unbalanced as we want to believe it was; it's just that back in the day people didn't know how to play certain specs and certainly didn't know what gear to pick in order to excel at the chosen spec.
i.e., in UBRS runs with a T1-T2 mage and rogue i end 3rd in damage meters with 6/8 Lightforge and a few AV/pvp items. That's roughly 30% less in damage, and quite frankly that sounds just about right. Cant' expect a hybrid to be much higher in a single role, that would be unbalanced.
If Classic is going to be Vanilla you need to let the game be vanilla. If you start adding stuff to the game it kinda breaks the purpose of being a classic game. The so called hardcore vanilla people will tell you to get cancer and die when you mention something like this. They will not accept that stuff will be added. Yep true fact I have had vanilla maniacs tell me to get cancer and die.... Anyway Blizzard is in a no win scenario here. No matter what they do people will be complaining and calling them names.
Comments
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
However, so long as the changes aren't groundshaking, I'd surmise most players wouldn't even notice until well after 60s have been logged and min/maxing has begun.
I'm not sure, in the end, it would really result in an exodus. Changing entire mechanics would be more likely, as that would change the way the game plays and feels for certain classes.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
but we want vanilla wow!! it was the best ever!
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
You could put in WoW exactly as it was the day before BC released, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
You could pick any single update/upgrade/change the game as made since release to implement, and for every person who cheers, 5 say "You ruined it"
This is a no-win proposition, there is absolutely no way you can make everyone happy, and I don't even think a reasonable middle ground exists. That is probably why Blizzard tried to stay clear of it.
Speaking just for myself - I'm totally glad I was there when WoW opened their doors. I'm glad to have experienced a lot of the Vanilla experience. I am equally glad that games have evolved to be better and I never have to do that again.
A MILLION TIMES NO! Group/raid finders are one of the worst things in the genre.
Isn't part of the appeal of an MMO the huge social aspect? If you think yes, then why do you want it to be replaced by an automated system? I actually remember my server back in Vanilla as a community in which people remembered each other and developed friendships and rivalries. I still remember many names and fun times, despite it being over a decade ago.
Do you remember the name of the last person you were grouped with by a group finder or matchmaker?
The contrast between Legion and vanilla WoW perfectly highlights the differences behind the philosophies of modern MMORPGs and those that gave the genre life to begin with.
If they change the UI, or add crafting bags, or update the graphics, or tweak numbers to help all specs become more equally relevant... None of that violates or compromises the underlying design philosophy that made vanilla WoW great. It also wouldn't, to me, even be changes worth mentioning as "this isn't vanilla WoW." Reducing the difficulty of dungeons, adding lobby-style dungeon tools, reducing the open world to what feels more like a child's playground than a treacherous fantasy world worth exploring... Those are the changes that would destroy the classic experience imo.
Lol. Get ready for - "LFM MC Run, tier 3 required, you will be checked". This is community for you in a nutshell.
i.e., in UBRS runs with a T1-T2 mage and rogue i end 3rd in damage meters with 6/8 Lightforge and a few AV/pvp items. That's roughly 30% less in damage, and quite frankly that sounds just about right. Cant' expect a hybrid to be much higher in a single role, that would be unbalanced.