The positive CoE challenge:

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

Defenders of this game will often try to claim that the critics leave out all the positive about the game. I have asked multiple times for them to provide examples but so far have met silence. So here I will call out a challenge:

List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.

Here I will start you off:

They have a diehard and dedicated community base of a few thousand potential players.
The developers interact with the diehard community on their forums and Discord.
The developers have created some nifty background concepts/outlines for the future world.

Reserved for all the future positives supplied:

Published a Revised Schedule with S2 2019 as new target date (Kyleran)
As of July have hired 4 Leads to work on the game (Kyleran)
Showed a small jousting demo this year and a cave exploration demo last year (Wellspring)
Put together nice promo videos (Kyleran) and "2 screenshots" (Just Drake)
Friends and Family Vox Elyria (minecraft) Alpha started (Deatherus)

I will update this post with any positives that meet the above criteria.

Go!

Kyleran · November 2017

Stand back, I'm up to the challenge.. no seriously, I am.

A lot is said about missing the original timeline in a big way and rightfully so.

All water under the bridge at this point, they've explained the reasons for delay, taken steps to correct, and most importantly, PUBLISHED A REVISED SCHEDULE.

Ahem, apologies, a pet peeve of mine is most devs love to share how much has been accomplished and some provide how much work remains but few are willing to lay it all out on a caledar, but this team has and I commend them for it.

In fact they boldly provide a S2 2019 "Release" Date! Will they hit it, I don't know but if they are transparent over any delays it isn't reasonable to crucify them, as a PM I know my skills at accurately predicting the future have fallen short "on occasion."

Kyleran · November 2017

Wait, there's more but since few read more than 2 or 3 lines I didn't want it to get lost.

One key reason for the schedule delay was the challenge of hiring good talent with gaming background as quickly as "assumed."

I can't imagine why experienced devs would not immediately realize what a great opportunity it is to relocate and go to work for an under funded developer with virtually no industry recognition, but it is what it is.

Still, in time faith grew (if you build it, they will come) and slowly but surely they were able to add new staff in 2017.

MadFrenchie · November 2017

I'm still under the impression they never really thought the original timeline was reasonable- they just knew it would sell better than a reasonable one.

However, I don't think they're alone in that regard. Many (most/all?) MMORPG crowdfunding endeavors are happy to give you an ultra-optimistic timeline because they want you to buy. But that's also the crux of the problem.

General gamers aren't well-versed in project management, software development, or marketing. They're not ideal entities for funding such large, time-consuming, nebulous (at the time of funding) endeavors. They are ideal entities for manipulating with reference to those endeavors, though. Maybe that's the cynic in me, but it seems apparent to me the developers are more than willing to leverage this. As I've mentioned before, this is why I have little in the realm of sympathy for these devs.

Even if they gave an earnest timeline and earnestly fell short... Well, you asked for funding from the unwashed masses, you get to face their disappointment.

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

Kyleran said:

Wait, there's more but since few read more than 2 or 3 lines I didn't want it to get lost.

One key reason for the schedule delay was the challenge of hiring good talent with gaming background as quickly as "assumed."

I can't imagine why experienced devs would not immediately realize what a great opportunity it is to relocate and go to work for an under funded developer with virtually no industry recognition, but it is what it is.

Still, in time faith grew (if you build it, they will come) and slowly but surely they were able to add new staff in 2017.

I’ll update the list when I get home. Which devs are a clear positive though? The only one I know is the Revival guy... so I don’t know I’d put that in the positive column until I see something tangible delivered...

Kyleran · November 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Wait, there's more but since few read more than 2 or 3 lines I didn't want it to get lost.

One key reason for the schedule delay was the challenge of hiring good talent with gaming background as quickly as "assumed."

I can't imagine why experienced devs would not immediately realize what a great opportunity it is to relocate and go to work for an under funded developer with virtually no industry recognition, but it is what it is.

Still, in time faith grew (if you build it, they will come) and slowly but surely they were able to add new staff in 2017.

I’ll update the list when I get home. Which devs are a clear positive though? The only one I know is the Revival guy... so I don’t know I’d put that in the positive column until I see something tangible delivered...

They mentioned these 4 leads back in July, who all appear to have relevant background:

Lead Programmer, Steve "Cynax" Hoelle - Steve joined Soulbound Studios as a former Lead and Senior Server/Gameplay programmer for companies such as S2, Kabam, EA, Vigil, and Sigil. He's had a ton of experience in the MMO space working on games such as Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online, and Star Wars: The Old Republic. The range of experience made him uniquely qualified to help us anticipate the problems we might not have otherwise anticipated, and help us solve problems he'd already faced multiple times at previous studios.

Lead Technical Artist, Dennis "Wiz" Price - Dennis joined Soulbound Studios after nineteen years working as an Art Director, Lead Artist, and Technical Artist for companies such as Airtight Games, Turn 10 Studios, and most relavently, a total of over 11 years working as a Lighting and Cinematic Lead for Blizzard Entertainment. His experience has allowed him to jump in and immediately improve the content pipeline and processes we use here at Soulbound Studios, preparing us for the large volume of assets and data necessary for an MMORPG. And this says nothing about the lighting and material improvements we've already made to the game to really make it stand apart from other MMOs.

Lead Animator, Colin "Mudokon" Brown - While Colin technically joined us at the very end of 2016, he wasn't put into the position of Lead Animator until 2017. With over 10 years experience as an animator, Colin joined us after being Lead Animator at Disney Interactive on Star Wars: Commander and just before that a Character Animator at Cryptic Studios on City of Heroes and Star Trek Online. Not only does Colin drive the other animators to do their best work, but having Colin act as Lead Animator has forced us to consider animation in each and every technical decision we make. This ensures CoE looks more like a living, breathing world than an MMO, but does so even with the latency issues that accompany an MMO.

Sr. Server/Gameplay Programmer, Joshua "Glaive" Galvin - Josh joined Soulbound Studios directly after leaving ArenaNet, where he had worked on the MMORPG, Guild Wars 2 since 2013. Having also previously worked as a programmer at Cryptic Studios, Josh immediately jumped in at Soulbound Studios as an architect on our back-end, helping us to develop a technology stack that allows for rapid iteration and perhaps the fastest engineering workflow I could imagine on an MMORPG. The rapid rate of acceleration on the development of our back-end over the last several months is in large-part due to Josh.

Talonsin · November 2017

SedrynTyros said:

There isn't a game yet, so your "challenge" is just a bad joke, but I'm sure you know that already, and are, as usual, just trying to "provide facts for people trying to decide to back the project". As soon as there's a game to play (assuming it ever gets finished), I'll list everything I like and don't like about it for you while you're no doubt still "giving facts to" everyone why it's bad and they shouldn't appreciate it.

People calling you out on your relentless "questions" about a video game still in production are not necessarily "Defenders of CoE" as you put it. Sometimes it's just "blindly defending the game they love and ignoring all logic". After a certain point, the "quest for truth" you're on is nothing more than "helping" a developer into "admitting they were wrong" and when they do "The world will be a better place because finally we will have a developer who acknowledges the critics and works to fix their game instead of lying and pretending everything is awesome". It's interesting that a lot of people here seem to admire "truth". I think there's nothing admirable about it at all "because I have no facts to refute you so I will play the morally right card and call you a bully and question your ethics".

Fixed that for you!

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Wait, there's more but since few read more than 2 or 3 lines I didn't want it to get lost.

One key reason for the schedule delay was the challenge of hiring good talent with gaming background as quickly as "assumed."

I can't imagine why experienced devs would not immediately realize what a great opportunity it is to relocate and go to work for an under funded developer with virtually no industry recognition, but it is what it is.

Still, in time faith grew (if you build it, they will come) and slowly but surely they were able to add new staff in 2017.

I’ll update the list when I get home. Which devs are a clear positive though? The only one I know is the Revival guy... so I don’t know I’d put that in the positive column until I see something tangible delivered...

They mentioned these 4 leads back in July, who all appear to have relevant background:

Lead Programmer, Steve "Cynax" Hoelle - Steve joined Soulbound Studios as a former Lead and Senior Server/Gameplay programmer for companies such as S2, Kabam, EA, Vigil, and Sigil. He's had a ton of experience in the MMO space working on games such as Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online, and Star Wars: The Old Republic. The range of experience made him uniquely qualified to help us anticipate the problems we might not have otherwise anticipated, and help us solve problems he'd already faced multiple times at previous studios.
Lead Technical Artist, Dennis "Wiz" Price - Dennis joined Soulbound Studios after nineteen years working as an Art Director, Lead Artist, and Technical Artist for companies such as Airtight Games, Turn 10 Studios, and most relavently, a total of over 11 years working as a Lighting and Cinematic Lead for Blizzard Entertainment. His experience has allowed him to jump in and immediately improve the content pipeline and processes we use here at Soulbound Studios, preparing us for the large volume of assets and data necessary for an MMORPG. And this says nothing about the lighting and material improvements we've already made to the game to really make it stand apart from other MMOs.
Lead Animator, Colin "Mudokon" Brown - While Colin technically joined us at the very end of 2016, he wasn't put into the position of Lead Animator until 2017. With over 10 years experience as an animator, Colin joined us after being Lead Animator at Disney Interactive on Star Wars: Commander and just before that a Character Animator at Cryptic Studios on City of Heroes and Star Trek Online. Not only does Colin drive the other animators to do their best work, but having Colin act as Lead Animator has forced us to consider animation in each and every technical decision we make. This ensures CoE looks more like a living, breathing world than an MMO, but does so even with the latency issues that accompany an MMO.
Sr. Server/Gameplay Programmer, Joshua "Glaive" Galvin - Josh joined Soulbound Studios directly after leaving ArenaNet, where he had worked on the MMORPG, Guild Wars 2 since 2013. Having also previously worked as a programmer at Cryptic Studios, Josh immediately jumped in at Soulbound Studios as an architect on our back-end, helping us to develop a technology stack that allows for rapid iteration and perhaps the fastest engineering workflow I could imagine on an MMORPG. The rapid rate of acceleration on the development of our back-end over the last several months is in large-part due to Josh.

Fair enough

Wizardry · November 2017

Until a game is FINISHED,nothing is a positive,just smoke and mirrors.
Just imagine if the game never releases,how was there any positives out of it all?
So yeah it has to be finished,then we can share ideas.

I mean we could stretch it so thin as to say Joe Smuck did 600 lines of code today,what a positive because last month he only did 300 lines of code.
The ONLY thing that matters is the finished product,the rest is just chit chat.

Kyleran · November 2017

Wizardry said:

Until a game is FINISHED,nothing is a positive,just smoke and mirrors.
Just imagine if the game never releases,how was there any positives out of it all?
So yeah it has to be finished,then we can share ideas.

I mean we could stretch it so thin as to say Joe Smuck did 600 lines of code today,what a positive because last month he only did 300 lines of code.
The ONLY thing that matters is the finished product,the rest is just chit chat.

Cmon Wiz, I know the sun never shines where you live but just as I well understand the context of your reply you surely comprehend the spirit of mine.

ArChWind · November 2017

Dang! Same place it was a year ago. I can see why there is some doubt but most of these projects take a LOT of time and a LOT of your money.

Kyleran · November 2017

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

Wellspring · November 2017

Positives:

They had the jousting gameplay demo this year and the cave exploration demo last year at the annual game conference they go to (Pax IIRC). Which I wasn't expecting Jousting to be in the game since the KS failed to reach the mounted combat stretch goal.

Jousting also shows progress in the multi-client connectivity front, although very small scale.

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

Kyleran said:

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

To avoid going down the road of “we can buy” I addressed this in the OP.

“List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.“

Kyleran · November 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

To avoid going down the road of “we can buy” I addressed this in the OP.

“List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.“

OK, but doesn't change the fact its a positive they brought in $47K or that it was a big jump.

If this game doesn't continue to find ways to keep money rolling in then failure is assured.

Kyleran · November 2017

Here's one I'm sure some may choke on, they recently released a very nice pre-Alpha video which did a great job spotlighting the team and confirmed there is actually a committed (albeit small) dev team working on the game.

What the heck, I enjoyed it, and I have a confession, I'm actually pulling for these guys to succeed, I think I might enjoy this sort of game.

Now, thats not to say I believe they will, so far there's little evidence to support that many of these indie MMOs will succeed in delivering a game, much less one I wish to play but hey, I'm only trying to list things I see as positive.

(and yes, I'm aware they reused footage from the KSer, good thing I never watched that video)

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

Wellspring said:

Positives:

They had the jousting gameplay demo this year and the cave exploration demo last year at the annual game conference they go to (Pax IIRC). Which I wasn't expecting Jousting to be in the game since the KS failed to reach the mounted combat stretch goal.

Jousting also shows progress in the multi-client connectivity front, although very small scale.

Updated to include these although I think your last point is the relevant one as personally I think their main issue will be handling large scale combat.

PS: Jousting was done by Defender of the Crown back in the 80s.

Slapshot1188 · November 2017

SedrynTyros said:

There isn't a game yet, so your "challenge" is just a bad joke, but I'm sure you know that already, and are, as usual, just trying to stir the pot some more. As soon as there's a game to play (assuming it ever gets finished), I'll list everything I like and don't like about it for you while you're no doubt still explaining to everyone why it's bad and they shouldn't appreciate it.

People calling you out on your relentless attacks against a video game still in production are not necessarily "Defenders of CoE" as you put it. Sometimes it's just defending basic decency. After a certain point, the crusade you're on is nothing more than bullying a developer into taking your bait and when they do you savor every word of their flippant response and use it as more dirt to pile on. It's interesting that a lot of people here seem to admire it. I think there's nothing admirable about it at all.

Actually... unlike you.. some people actually were able to come up with a few positives which I listed. Instead of taking the opportunity to show us all the positives you previously claimed I ignored, you again took an opportunity to try and bash me. Guess that says a lot about YOUR motivations in your postings.

ConstantineMerus · November 2017

Kyleran said:

Here's one I'm sure some may choke on, they recently released a very nice pre-Alpha video which did a great job spotlighting the team and confirmed there is actually a committed (albeit small) dev team working on the game.

What the heck, I enjoyed it, and I have a confession, I'm actually pulling for these guys to succeed, I think I might enjoy this sort of game.

Now, thats not to say I believe they will, so far there's little evidence to support that many of these indie MMOs will succeed in delivering a game, much less one I wish to play but hey, I'm only trying to list things I see as positive.

(and yes, I'm aware they reused footage from the KSer, good thing I never watched that video)

Man I haven't you seen this excited since you had discovered vibrators. Or was that I? Doesn't matter.

I want these guys to succeed. I want all other campaigns to succeed as well. To be honest with the interest of developing MMOs in the west being almost six feet under, we need as many successes (oh I just realized I love this word!) as we can get.

On the other hand, if most of them fail, there's a good chance we'd all have to attend its funeral then move to Korea. Learning a new language reduces the risk of Alzheimer's so there's your silverlining.

OrangeBoy · November 2017

I think everyone forgets that SBS doesn't show the aspects that are supposed to make CoE different from every other MMO.

No demos of the Akashik Records/Astral Plain

No demos of the skill trees at work

No demos of lich/vampires

No demos of the contract system

No demos of the evidence system

No demos of OPC in action

No demos of the ground-breaking AI complexity that is supposed to mimic RL players

No demos of magic/talents

No demos of etc

But, let's not focus on the things that are supposed to separate this game from the rest and pioneer a new era of MMOs. Let's focus on the things they do have =]

There are demos of jumping,

There are demos of basic attacking

There are demos of climbing

There are demos and pictures of environments

There are demos of jousting, but that it, only jousting

There is fan art of squirrels

There is fan art of a bar

There is fan art of a fight in a bar

There is fan art of these POS worthless tribes and their POS worthless backstories

There is fan art of people from these tribes and they are not very pretty; even as concept art

You know, after reading what I wrote, I came to the conclusion that had SBS really wanted to be pioneers in the field of MMOs, they would have had tremendous amount of success if they focused on giving information and video demonstration on the things that would attract an amazing: the things that are supposed to make COE special.

You know, after reading everything above again, I'm glad I'm not buying king tokens for this cash grab gone wrong.

I like pie

Nilden · November 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

To avoid going down the road of “we can buy” I addressed this in the OP.

“List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.“

Well other than the list of some developers, this is a pretty silly request considering they have a webpage some videos and are selling things for a game that doesn't exist yet.

You could probably take it easy on the COE stuff for a while Slapshot. That is until they shoot themselves in the foot and sick it in their mouth. Which will probably happen sooner than later. Save up for something juicy.

P.S. They have a website is my positive.

OrangeBoy · November 2017

Nilden said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

To avoid going down the road of “we can buy” I addressed this in the OP.

“List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.“

Well other than the list of some developers, this is a pretty silly request considering they have a webpage some videos and are selling things for a game that doesn't exist yet.

You could probably take it easy on the COE stuff for a while Slapshot. That is until they shoot themselves in the foot and sick it in their mouth. Which will probably happen sooner than later. Save up for something juicy.

P.S. They have a website is my positive.

They shot themselves in the foot when they promised all of these impossible features, with a malicious lie of a time line, along with no financial security.

Kyleran · November 2017

OrangeBoy said:

Nilden said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Just thought of another positive, the last 2 weeks of October saw a significant increase in funds collected ($47K) vs the next previous 2 week high ($9K) since August.

Not sure if attributable to recent unbundling of KSer exclusives or some other factor.

To avoid going down the road of “we can buy” I addressed this in the OP.

“List the positives but include only things that actually exist (not promised to someday exist) and nothing related to stuff you can buy.“

Well other than the list of some developers, this is a pretty silly request considering they have a webpage some videos and are selling things for a game that doesn't exist yet.

You could probably take it easy on the COE stuff for a while Slapshot. That is until they shoot themselves in the foot and sick it in their mouth. Which will probably happen sooner than later. Save up for something juicy.

P.S. They have a website is my positive.

They shot themselves in the foot when they promised all of these impossible features, with a malicious lie of a time line, along with no financial security.

Which pretty much describes every Kickstarted / indie MMORPG if you look at the track record so far.

Its really the backers who shoot themselves, believing a full featured game can be delivered on the cheap and on time before a dev team has even been assembled. (Well, assuming they ever did believe)

Regardless, here we are, looking for the positives, not trying to keep beating dead horses which can't be changed at this point.

StaalBurgher · November 2017

An important positive is that they have clearly found a way to get additional funding. I don't know what their payroll is but right now they must be covering a big chunk of it.

Image: http://forums.mmorpg.com/uploads/editor/z5/2fu33q687sno.jpg

Kyleran · November 2017

Great to see money continues to roll in, will be a key indicator to keep watch on.

I appeciate they make this information available, most others keep it under wraps for "secret" reasons.

Tiamat64 · November 2017

StaalBurgher said:

An important positive is that they have clearly found a way to get additional funding. I don't know what their payroll is but right now they must be covering a big chunk of it.

Just to make sure I'm reading this right, starting from August, that's $210,000 or so in 3 months? That's enough to pay for around 12 people, I guess, although that would leave no money for things like building rent or electricity.

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The positive CoE challenge:

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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The positive CoE challenge:

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV