Official Classic Server Forums Aflame in Class Balance Debate - World of Warcraft - MMORPG.com

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,012
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    waynejr2 said:
    laserit said:
    gervaise1 said:
    Xarko said:
    DMKano said:
    Xarko said:
    I realize changing talents in significant way might ruin "muh vanilla" for some, but mere number tweaks are not enough to fix the mess that were vanilla talents.

    Blizzard has to make a very difficult choice, whether they fix things and piss off purists or keep them "broken" to make it more vanilla, but have half the specs raid non-viable.

    There is no difficult choice - broken things will be fixed, even the purists who say they hate this know that it is a necessity for longterm success.


    Things are not that simple. "Fixing things necessary for long term success" are what turned WoW into what it is today.
    Not that simple I suggest. 

    BC only - only - added two new races, level 60-70 spells and the removal of faction specific classes (plus associated changes that resulted). Arguably BC didn't increase the number of classes so - in the grand scheme of things - wasn't that big a deal. Not everyone will agree but big picture view: minor.

    WotLK though introduced the Death Knight. And in true mmo expansion fashion it was the fotm class. And in true mmo post-expansion fashion it was then toned down.

    And so it went on with further cycles of new fotm classes and nerfs to the others.

    Its the expansions that turned WoW into what it is today. And insofar as "expansions" were required for long term success yes then OK.

    If you do the "fixes" without the expansions though then, I suggest, it would be different.




    BC it put the game in a direction that I personally disliked.

    Giving in to the shaman/paladin faction thing.

    The shared capital city

    Introducing resilience which further segregated the PvP from the rest of the game.

    Vanilla gave me an awesome virtual world feel and starting with BC that feeling began to die. 

    But it seems that people want to "fix" the classic wow away from what you and I want.
    Didn't they already get that?

    It would be very interesting to see the game evolve from Vanilla following the original tenets of the game.

    Who was it Torval that suggested they need a new team to make the expacs from classic wow in the same style of mechanics as vanilla?  That could be good.
    Several people suggested that idea or variations, not just me. There are several ways I think they could make classic appeal to different groups. I'm not sure they'll want to do that though. It's going to be hard to please everyone.
    waynejr2
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  • TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,233
    It should be day one classic, bugs and all.
    Ozmodan





  • acidbloodacidblood melbourneMember UncommonPosts: 655
    edited November 16
    Xarko said:
    I realize changing talents in significant way might ruin "muh vanilla" for some, but mere number tweaks are not enough to fix the mess that were vanilla talents.

    Blizzard has to make a very difficult choice, whether they fix things and piss off purists or keep them "broken" to make it more vanilla, but have half the specs raid non-viable.
    But why does every spec need to be 'raid viable'... I had a lot of fun in Vanilla and TBC WoW as an Arcane / Ice Mage, which was actually quite a good spec for solo and small group.

    And I know a lot of classes were a lot more broken than Mages, but just because something isn't raid viable doesn't mean it can't be fun... remember this is game built before the 'speed-run' and 'raid-or-die' mindsets turned everything into a mindless asocial zerg (edit: though ironically it is also the game that pushed that mindset into the mainstream), and overcoming / living with the 'flaws' was a big part of what made it memorable.
    Post edited by acidblood on
    forcelimaGdemamiXarkodeniter
  • goozmaniagoozmania chino, CAMember UncommonPosts: 202
    They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
    forcelimaOzmodan
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYMember RarePosts: 1,088
    goozmania said:
    They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
    Then this wouldn't be vanilla......

    How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
    GdemamiKyleranwaynejr2Ozmodan
  • TillerTiller Member RarePosts: 6,233
    edited November 16
    goozmania said:
    They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
    So in other words like the game is now. :/ You kinda missed the point I think.
    Post edited by Tiller on
    Gdemamiwaynejr2





  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member UncommonPosts: 167
    Is anyone able to answer these quick questions-

    1) Are the skill trees coming back, and restrictions like they used to be? Like Paladins alliance only and Shamans horde only (during vanilla)? I loved wow when it had meaningful character development.

    2) When is this coming out? Any ballpark given?

    3) Will this always be vanilla or will they eventually add BC? I enjoyed wow a lot until after WotLK when they gutted all chardev options instead of adding to them like with BC and WotLK with gemcrafting, glyphs, and better trees with more points. Will I be able to switch my characters to a different server if the one I am on goes past WotLK?
  • RedMachine72RedMachine72 Turney, MOMember UncommonPosts: 127

    BruceYee said:

    If it isn't almost an exact copy of vanilla I doubt many people will stick with it.



    Played from 2006-2015, and the most fun I had was before WotLK. Sure it was kinda fun during and after, but with the changes they made I could tell they just wanted people in and did not care how they did it, including dumbing down the whole system. When I left, it had become just basically faceroll for the win in everything. No strategy in anything anymore except "don't stand in the fire".

    Might sub for a month just to check it out, but if they just change the world and leave everything else the same, then it is not classic. Also would like to see the classes go back to what they were, that was half the fun of it, unbalanced classes going at it in pvp(remember the rogue stun lock with maces). Now just about everyone can be anything.
    BruceYeeSedrynTyros
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member UncommonPosts: 167

    BruceYee said:

    If it isn't almost an exact copy of vanilla I doubt many people will stick with it.



    Might sub for a month just to check it out, but if they just change the world and leave everything else the same, then it is not classic. 

    It wouldn't just be not classic, it would be WoW but slightly different setting.  The mechanics are really the only thing that matters.  If I don't want to play WoW now because of the child friendly mechanics and complete lack of character development why would changing the current raids/dungeons/zones make me want to give anyone money?

    Do you know the answers to my three questions above by chance?
  • GaladournGaladourn AthensMember UncommonPosts: 1,297
    blamo2000 said:
    Is anyone able to answer these quick questions-

    1) Are the skill trees coming back, and restrictions like they used to be? Like Paladins alliance only and Shamans horde only (during vanilla)? I loved wow when it had meaningful character development.

    2) When is this coming out? Any ballpark given?

    3) Will this always be vanilla or will they eventually add BC? I enjoyed wow a lot until after WotLK when they gutted all chardev options instead of adding to them like with BC and WotLK with gemcrafting, glyphs, and better trees with more points. Will I be able to switch my characters to a different server if the one I am on goes past WotLK?
    1) Yes
    2) Unknown (not even Blizzard can tell you)
    3) Rumor has it that an ambitious plan would be to provide all post-vanilla content "tuned" to a vanilla game system, i.e. scaled down to work with max. level 60 and the class abilities existing in vanilla. It's too ambitious and personally don't give it much probability, but if it were to happen it would be awesome.
    blamo2000

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,693
    So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?

    Yeah OK.

    Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.

    Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.

    Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something.  You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners.  It ruined the game.

    So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners.  Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game.  You should love it.
    GdemamiKyleran
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,693
    edited November 16
    seldin said:
    So what would be the definition of vanilla/classic wow?  The last patch version before Burning Crusade?  They could give the truest form of wow and make everyone use the Day 1 version (1.0?).  No changes no upgrades.  Then saw here you go. Here is your vanilla classic wow. On a side note, what happens once you release the classic servers?  Static never able to patch or upgrade.  This is becoming such a stupid argument.  Blizzard opened such a stupid can of worms.  What happens when the content from Vanilla Wow is completed "end credits?"  Blizzard can't add new content that wont be vanilla.  When you cater to the vocal minority everyone loses.
    Oh, get out of here with that.  This is awesome!  Now I get to read all the people who said this would never happen blow a gasket on the forums trying to find a way to poor cold water all over it.  It's deliciously salty ..... simply delicious!  o:)

    Blizzy must be doing so well, that they need to go back to the start!
    Post edited by waynejr2 on
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,012
    goozmania said:
    They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
    Then this wouldn't be vanilla......

    How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
    They're not making vanilla. They're making classic. People should adjust their expectations accordingly. Did you read the thread and the forum post? Even the word vanilla, as Blizzard has pointed out, means a ton of different things from launch to BC. Right now they're trying to figure out what classic means and let's be honest, even the people within "vanilla" don't all agree on what that means.
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  • deveilbladdeveilblad Member UncommonPosts: 189
    This whole WoW Classic thing is stupid from the start. People don't play WoW private servers because they want vanilla, they play because it's FREE.
    KyleranOzmodanlaserit
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember EpicPosts: 3,000
    Torval said:
    goozmania said:
    They should absolutely aim to have every class be viable, which was not the case in the original game. They should also keep the existing stat system, rather than going back to vanilla stats/gear, which were crap.
    Then this wouldn't be vanilla......

    How about those that want vanilla (no changes) get that server...and everyone else stay on the current server with changes.
    They're not making vanilla. They're making classic. People should adjust their expectations accordingly. Did you read the thread and the forum post? Even the word vanilla, as Blizzard has pointed out, means a ton of different things from launch to BC. Right now they're trying to figure out what classic means and let's be honest, even the people within "vanilla" don't all agree on what that means.
    I think their deliberation mainly centers around how to make this something with more longevity than simply throwing up vanilla content and walking away.

    What that means has yet to be seen, but my best guess is they will determine what the "core" philosophies are that were present in the original that have been altered or removed over the course of WoW's evolution and go from there.  Brack did say that they were trying to recreate the experience (things like the talent trees, Hunter pet system, slower regen, etc. are pretty hallmark of the differences between current and vanilla) so I think it will be much closer on feel to the original than many are giving Blizzard credit for, while putting that classic Blizzard "here's what we learned about this from our and other developers' past mistakes" approach to making any quote-unquote improvements to vanilla.

    image
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,012
    Classic for me is right before is pre-Wrath BC and for a bit just after that release. So the closer it is to that the more I'll like it.
    MadFrenchie
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    Featured Tracks: Walking in the Air
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,985
    Torval said:
    Classic for me is right before is pre-Wrath BC and for a bit just after that release. So the closer it is to that the more I'll like it.
    I never played Wrath when it was live.  Classic for me was Beta, Vanilla, and The Burning Crusade.  But honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with Wrath of the Lich King as long as it was before the addition of Dungeon Finder or Raid Finder.
    Torval
  • seldinseldin Paris, ILMember UncommonPosts: 148
    Torval said:
    Classic for me is right before is pre-Wrath BC and for a bit just after that release. So the closer it is to that the more I'll like it.
    I never played Wrath when it was live.  Classic for me was Beta, Vanilla, and The Burning Crusade.  But honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with Wrath of the Lich King as long as it was before the addition of Dungeon Finder or Raid Finder.

    See this is where they will have problems everyone's definition of where they need to roll back for the classic servers is different for everyone.  They are just going to have a whole lot of disappoint people that it is not the classic wow they wanted or remember.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemMember EpicPosts: 2,020
    waynejr2 said:
    So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?

    Yeah OK.

    Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.

    Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.

    Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something.  You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners.  It ruined the game.

    So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners.  Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game.  You should love it.
    I didn't play WoW Frito, you imbecile.

    The point is expectation. Anybody who honestly thinks Blizzards motivation for a Classic WoW server is to provide an alternative to "bitchers and moaners" is a simpleton and waters their lawn with Brawndo.

    They're going to remove old bugs, they're going to make QoL changes and monetize. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some balancing as well. It's never going to be a 1:1 conversion Frito. 




  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,736
    If they are only making one server per region, per server type PVE/PVP, than it needs to be as close to vanilla as possible.

    If they have multiple servers then I'd be more than open to improvements and balance in certain areas.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,736

    Rusque said:

    If people are serious about wanting to play vanilla WoW, then that's exactly what they should get. They shouldn't get balance changes or quality of life improvements. They should get the classic experience.






    If you play a warrior you are prot. Get 4 stacks of sunder asap. In pvp you are rooted the entire match while looking at your Mortal Strike button longingly, you just want to press it one time, just one. But you can't.



    If you want to pvp, you either join the pvp collusion ring that account shares and play a chosen character 24/7 in weekly rotations in order to hit GM, or you just play what you can and hit a wall. Unless you're capable of staying up all day every day for a month or so (and don't have a job).



    There was always room for DPS warriors in vanilla PVE and especially PVP. I know because I raided as a dps war who backup tanked on rare occasions when one of the main tanks died. Arms Warriors were beasts in PVP with a pocket healer.

    But yes I had to play 16 hours a day the last month to get HWL as well as organizing WSG parties and working with people I competed against.

    Anyway, vanilla WOW had a lot of crappy designs when looking back, or even trying on private servers. I think the debate with developers will be heated.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHMember RarePosts: 8,737
    I just want the old skill trees.  What killed Wow for me was the limited character customization that Wow became.  I just avoided the idiots who demanded certain specs, took all the fun out of the game.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,985
    seldin said:
    Torval said:
    Classic for me is right before is pre-Wrath BC and for a bit just after that release. So the closer it is to that the more I'll like it.
    I never played Wrath when it was live.  Classic for me was Beta, Vanilla, and The Burning Crusade.  But honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with Wrath of the Lich King as long as it was before the addition of Dungeon Finder or Raid Finder.

    See this is where they will have problems everyone's definition of where they need to roll back for the classic servers is different for everyone.  They are just going to have a whole lot of disappoint people that it is not the classic wow they wanted or remember.
    The only disappointed people are going to be the ones who expect something other than a version of vanilla WoW.  I'm not expecting anything else, so I'm good.
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros USMember EpicPosts: 1,985
    waynejr2 said:
    So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?

    Yeah OK.

    Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.

    Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.

    Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something.  You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners.  It ruined the game.

    So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners.  Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game.  You should love it.
    I didn't play WoW Frito, you imbecile.

    The point is expectation. Anybody who honestly thinks Blizzards motivation for a Classic WoW server is to provide an alternative to "bitchers and moaners" is a simpleton and waters their lawn with Brawndo.

    They're going to remove old bugs, they're going to make QoL changes and monetize. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some balancing as well. It's never going to be a 1:1 conversion Frito. 




    I think you're right that they're going to remove old bugs.  On everything else, I think you're very obviously wrong based on what they've said so far.  So drink your brawndo, dude.  The only thing more satisfying then watching all the naysayers be wrong about legacy servers will be watching them be wrong twice, lol.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemMember EpicPosts: 2,020
    waynejr2 said:
    So basically nobody wanted balance changes during Vanilla WoW?

    Yeah OK.

    Anybody who thinks they were getting literal Vanilla WoW really needs to understand how much they have in common with the future civilization in #Idiocracy.

    Nostalgia is cool but if you need a 1:1 conversion I suggest setting up your own private server among friends. It's not gonna happen.

    Just because it was vanilla doesn't mean that people like you weren't bitching and moaning about something.  You see, what happened over the expansions is that the devs caved into the bitchers and the moaners.  It ruined the game.

    So this vanilla experience is about, imo, about getting back to a state when the devs didn't cave to the bitchers and moaners.  Besides, you bitchers and moaners have the current state of the game.  You should love it.
    I didn't play WoW Frito, you imbecile.

    The point is expectation. Anybody who honestly thinks Blizzards motivation for a Classic WoW server is to provide an alternative to "bitchers and moaners" is a simpleton and waters their lawn with Brawndo.

    They're going to remove old bugs, they're going to make QoL changes and monetize. I wouldn't be surprised if they did some balancing as well. It's never going to be a 1:1 conversion Frito. 




    I think you're right that they're going to remove old bugs.  On everything else, I think you're very obviously wrong based on what they've said so far.  So drink your brawndo, dude.  The only thing more satisfying then watching all the naysayers be wrong about legacy servers will be watching them be wrong twice, lol.
    I don't think you comprehend what naysayer means.
    How can I be wrong "twice" when I nev... you know what? Never mind.

    Bottoms up to Vanilla WoW.



    SedrynTyros
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