Loot box RNG in GW2 has been a rip off for a long time in this game (BL Chests). And player base was fine with it. Anet bounds to take it to another level one way or another. The standard copy and paste GW2 white knight defense has always been "it's not mandatory" for almost everything. So, it's not a surprise to see ppl defending it that way. I suspect it's either PoF sales was subpar, Gemstore revenue post PoF is poor or it's just plain greed. It could be combination of those reasons. Either way they need revenue. Perhaps they figured they weren't aggressive enough on gemstore with HoT and it's time to take it to another level with PoF.
Another big possibility is this is a publicity stunt, they'll fix it. And voila, good guy Anet.
I am not sure its really a rip off.
I mean to me a 'rip off' or a 'scam' means I am telling you THIS but your really getting THAT.
so if I tell you 'I am going to take this hammer and stick it up your....' well that will be painful and unpleasant but its not a rip off or a scam.
A rip off in sense when you open them there are nothing your really wanted came out of it. Sure you get something in return that has relatively poor or no value in return. That is pretty much the reason North America's ESRB refuses to classify such RNG system as gambling, because you get something in return. RNG loot box is literally gambling simulation with that slight difference that put it into a grey area.
A scam would have implied a criminal intent on the seller behalf. A rip off implied bad value. There is a subtle difference.
The ESRB uses that excuse, but it's actually nonsense. If casinos guaranteed a penny on every roll, they would still fall under gambling regulations. The absence of a zero outcome does not make something not gambling.
This is nothing more than the ESRB defending the gaming industry from their own customers. The ESRB, after all, is not an independent regulatory board, but rather a board composed of the very industry heads responsible for these microtransactions in the first place. The gaming industry literally rates itself in order to keep the government from stepping in and doing it for them.
I agree with you, tbh. But they still have the final say on the definition, regardless of our opinion.
Loot box RNG in GW2 has been a rip off for a long time in this game (BL Chests). And player base was fine with it. Anet bounds to take it to another level one way or another. The standard copy and paste GW2 white knight defense has always been "it's not mandatory" for almost everything. So, it's not a surprise to see ppl defending it that way. I suspect it's either PoF sales was subpar, Gemstore revenue post PoF is poor or it's just plain greed. It could be combination of those reasons. Either way they need revenue. Perhaps they figured they weren't aggressive enough on gemstore with HoT and it's time to take it to another level with PoF.
Another big possibility is this is a publicity stunt, they'll fix it. And voila, good guy Anet.
I am not sure its really a rip off.
I mean to me a 'rip off' or a 'scam' means I am telling you THIS but your really getting THAT.
so if I tell you 'I am going to take this hammer and stick it up your....' well that will be painful and unpleasant but its not a rip off or a scam.
A rip off in sense when you open them there are nothing your really wanted came out of it. Sure you get something in return that has relatively poor or no value in return. That is pretty much the reason North America's ESRB refuses to classify such RNG system as gambling, because you get something in return. RNG loot box is literally gambling simulation with that slight difference that put it into a grey area.
A scam would have implied a criminal intent on the seller behalf. A rip off implied bad value. There is a subtle difference.
The ESRB uses that excuse, but it's actually nonsense. If casinos guaranteed a penny on every roll, they would still fall under gambling regulations. The absence of a zero outcome does not make something not gambling.
This is nothing more than the ESRB defending the gaming industry from their own customers. The ESRB, after all, is not an independent regulatory board, but rather a board composed of the very industry heads responsible for these microtransactions in the first place. The gaming industry literally rates itself in order to keep the government from stepping in and doing it for them.
I agree with you, tbh. But they still have the final say on the definition, regardless of our opinion.
They have the final say until a regulating body steps in and determines that they are, in fact, gambling. The ESRB only has the power to rate, not to classify. Right now, they're operating within a legal grey area caused by lack of legislation.
I strongly expect that if this issue does receive government attention, we'll see tens of millions of dollars in corporate lobbying.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Loot box RNG in GW2 has been a rip off for a long time in this game (BL Chests). And player base was fine with it. Anet bounds to take it to another level one way or another. The standard copy and paste GW2 white knight defense has always been "it's not mandatory" for almost everything. So, it's not a surprise to see ppl defending it that way. I suspect it's either PoF sales was subpar, Gemstore revenue post PoF is poor or it's just plain greed. It could be combination of those reasons. Either way they need revenue. Perhaps they figured they weren't aggressive enough on gemstore with HoT and it's time to take it to another level with PoF.
Another big possibility is this is a publicity stunt, they'll fix it. And voila, good guy Anet.
I am not sure its really a rip off.
I mean to me a 'rip off' or a 'scam' means I am telling you THIS but your really getting THAT.
so if I tell you 'I am going to take this hammer and stick it up your....' well that will be painful and unpleasant but its not a rip off or a scam.
A rip off in sense when you open them there are nothing your really wanted came out of it. Sure you get something in return that has relatively poor or no value in return. That is pretty much the reason North America's ESRB refuses to classify such RNG system as gambling, because you get something in return. RNG loot box is literally gambling simulation with that slight difference that put it into a grey area.
A scam would have implied a criminal intent on the seller behalf. A rip off implied bad value. There is a subtle difference.
The ESRB uses that excuse, but it's actually nonsense. If casinos guaranteed a penny on every roll, they would still fall under gambling regulations. The absence of a zero outcome does not make something not gambling.
This is nothing more than the ESRB defending the gaming industry from their own customers. The ESRB, after all, is not an independent regulatory board, but rather a board composed of the very industry heads responsible for these microtransactions in the first place. The gaming industry literally rates itself in order to keep the government from stepping in and doing it for them.
I agree with you, tbh. But they still have the final say on the definition, regardless of our opinion.
They have the final say until a regulating body steps in and determines that they are, in fact, gambling. The ESRB only has the power to rate, not to classify. Right now, they're operating within a legal grey area caused by lack of legislation.
I strongly expect that if this issue does receive government attention, we'll see tens of millions of dollars in corporate lobbying.
Touché, you are right about the definition and classification stuffs. https://wccftech.com/pegi-loot-boxes-cant-define-gambling/ A response from PEGI ... european equivalent of ESRB. It appears to define it as gambling it would have been up to gambling commission, for europe.
Even though I dont like the RNG element, I dont think one can truly categorize it as gambling since you are getting something guaranteed, even if its not the item you desire. You can't say the same when you pull slots or roll dice. Then again gambling is only really defined as taking a risk with some form of financing (using financing broadly since you can gamble items as well as money depending on who you're dealing with). It doesn't say anything about the end result (i.e. risking money in a casino does not guarantee you something tangible in return). Lets not forget ESO did the same thing and it died down quickly.
Even though I dont like the RNG element, I dont think one can truly categorize it as gambling since you are getting something guaranteed, even if its not the item you desire. You can't say the same when you pull slots or roll dice. Then again gambling is only really defined as taking a risk with some form of financing (using financing broadly since you can gamble items as well as money depending on who you're dealing with). It doesn't say anything about the end result (i.e. risking money in a casino does not guarantee you something tangible in return). Lets not forget ESO did the same thing and it died down quickly.
Many years ago, a friend of mine was robbed of all the money in his wallet. He was far from his house and the thief gave him a few bucks to take public transportation home. Was that still not a robbery? i'm pretty sure it still was.
I think RNG is just a slightly altered form of gambling.
The recent revelations about matching based upon microtransactions and the Battlefront II system really proved your last paragraph to be a self-defeating position for consumers to take. The issue isn't that cosmetic RNG is so god awful, it's that RNG on cash shop items itself will only lead to more egregious efforts of monetization in the future when the consumer base passively accepts it. It's no longer a slippery slope fallacy; we've seen the evidentiary evolution of consumer apathy towards such practices, and it gets gradually uglier so long as that apathy persists.
Yeah, that's still all conjecture and hyperbole. It is a slippery slope because you've not used facts about anything. You've just stated an opinion which is perfectly valid, but not one I personally share or care much about.
What I mean is that unless a game is more expensive than I want to pay for the options for doing so are just different facets of the same thing. So I don't care if I have to sub or do RMT cash exchange like the BLTC or microtransactions or loot boxes. I don't do loot boxes because I prefer a sure thing over chance in a direct purchase. That's my preference so that's how I spend money.
All the other stuff is just noise to me. Noisy gamers constantly bitching about everything so that when a serious issue does occasionally pop up it gets drowned out in the roar.
So what's so bad about offering random skins for sale when there are sure fire direct ways to get attractive cosmetics?
And again, I'll point out that the industry has a revenue mark. They're going to push for that. If their established methods aren't meeting the mark they'll keep innovating to add new ways. This isn't a new way though. It's a way that they've always used, but now gamers are making a big stink about it. Why should anyone care? Choose your battles.
The industry has a revenue mark, but that, in and of itself, does not mean it's an appropriate mark. If they're taking underhanded methods to achieve the mark, that's evidence it's not a realistic mark.
Again, I'll use my own industry (insurance); we'd sure love to exceed our marks (or even meet them all), but we cannot give up ethical practices to do so. That includes shady monetization and predatory product presentation tactics to do so. Simply saying "but we NEED to be here and this is the only way we can see to do it!" would not fly with any state Department of Insurance in America.
We also have very huge and real penalties for violating said ethics practices; something that isn't needed in a hobby industry like video gaming. But that doesn't mean we should also give publishers such a wide berth and hope they keep our best interests at heart in the end. We've gotten ample evidence they couldn't give a rats ass about their consumers beyond the ARPU (whether your wish to acknowledge the writing on the wall or not, it's still there). That's fine, they're a business; but don't get your panties in a wad when me and other consumers attempt to call them for bullshit pulled in pursuit of that almighty dollar.
The insurance industry, a moral bastion. The gaming industry is probably using them as their spiritual guide and example of how to squeeze more money from their customers while providing as little as possible in return. At least when I get loot crates there is something useful in them. I also don't get a tax fine at the end of the year for not buying them.
Buying loot crates is nothing like that. You can get skins in game without buying them. So where is the big moral injustice here that I'm supposed to care about?
Lol, you wrongly assume I'm speaking of healthcare insurance specifically. No, that's a different beast altogether, and one that's fallen prey as much to political rhetoric as the collusion between providers and insurance companies. But hey, red herrings are much easier to argue, right?
Weird to see RNG embedded in GW2's cash shop, but it's not specifically new I remember my Dye Packs with gems trying to get some shiny out of it, but RNG is something that needs to be driven away from MMO's, mobile games feast on this.
Maybe one day they'll see games/services with monetized RNG as casinos and tax them properly, man that will be a beautiful day.
Weird to see RNG embedded in GW2's cash shop, but it's not specifically new I remember my Dye Packs with gems trying to get some shiny out of it, but RNG is something that needs to be driven away from MMO's, mobile games feast on this.
Maybe one day they'll see games/services with monetized RNG as casinos and tax them properly, man that will be a beautiful day.
Honestly, you don't even have to look that far. The Black Lion Chests are classic loot boxes. And really, Black Lion Chests are far worse than the mount adoption licenses. At least mount adoption licenses don't allow duplicates. So you can inevitably own all of them if you choose to put enough gold or money into it. With the black lion skins, the only saving grace is that these can be traded with other players. The price of a black lion weapon on the trading post is usually comparable to the price of an adoption mount's gold-to-gems conversion price, if not considerably higher, depending on the age of the black lion skin in question.
Even though I dont like the RNG element, I dont think one can truly categorize it as gambling since you are getting something guaranteed, even if its not the item you desire. You can't say the same when you pull slots or roll dice. Then again gambling is only really defined as taking a risk with some form of financing (using financing broadly since you can gamble items as well as money depending on who you're dealing with). It doesn't say anything about the end result (i.e. risking money in a casino does not guarantee you something tangible in return). Lets not forget ESO did the same thing and it died down quickly.
Many years ago, a friend of mine was robbed of all the money in his wallet. He was far from his house and the thief gave him a few bucks to take public transportation home. Was that still not a robbery? i'm pretty sure it still was.
I think RNG is just a slightly altered form of gambling.
You're comparing someone forcefully taking something vs willingly giving something for an intended result. My point is gambling usually results in you getting NOTHING in return at the least vs buying RNG box/whatever you want to call it which will give you SOMETHING even if you dont want it. Both have the same intent buy the purchaser but are marketed differently by the one offering.
Honestly, you don't even have to look that far. The Black Lion Chests are classic loot boxes. And really, Black Lion Chests are far worse than the mount adoption licenses. At least mount adoption licenses don't allow duplicates. So you can inevitably own all of them if you choose to put enough gold or money into it. With the black lion skins, the only saving grace is that these can be traded with other players. The price of a black lion weapon on the trading post is usually comparable to the price of an adoption mount's gold-to-gems conversion price, if not considerably higher, depending on the age of the black lion skin in question.
I forgot about the Black Lion Chests, I actually usually converted to buy those in packs to buy keys, also the huge farm that existed of keys for those chests, the keys would then not be forcefully monetized as they could even drop as loot (at least when I played before).
Honestly, you don't even have to look that far. The Black Lion Chests are classic loot boxes. And really, Black Lion Chests are far worse than the mount adoption licenses. At least mount adoption licenses don't allow duplicates. So you can inevitably own all of them if you choose to put enough gold or money into it. With the black lion skins, the only saving grace is that these can be traded with other players. The price of a black lion weapon on the trading post is usually comparable to the price of an adoption mount's gold-to-gems conversion price, if not considerably higher, depending on the age of the black lion skin in question.
I forgot about the Black Lion Chests, I actually usually converted to buy those in packs to buy keys, also the huge farm that existed of keys for those chests, the keys would then not be forcefully monetized as they could even drop as loot (at least when I played before).
Yeah, from what I remember about the BLCs, people used to just spam a certain part of the story arc which would take about 30 mins per key back in the day (no idea now), but this is gems only and even though you can convert gold into gems, it still would've been "consumer friendly" to just let people buy the ones they wanted. There's no real excuse to do it this way other than plain greed.
Check out ^ this video, it's a bit long but he explained how it ends up like this.
Interesting take from rather rudimentary marketing pov. And it seems to nail it, just look at the exchange at gw2spidy.
Ppl incessantly criticizing but the money is still pouring in.
Probably the same reason ppl incessantly criticizing EA as the pinnacle of evil in gaming industry, yet they continues to rack in billions.
The term 'vote with your wallet' (implying not going to buy, ie. disgusted) is probably more close to vaporware for majority of spenders.
If the community is kicking off about it, I'm sure ANet will sort it out. I'd be surprised if they didn't.
Well, RNG gods have been governing gw2's shop and drops for quite a while. Especially regarding minis. Now it's become a bit too much, and a bit overpriced. Consider this particular issue as the last drop in the community's patience. The whole RNG/boxes problem been there for years now.
And ANet isn't too famous for actually listening to its community. They're nice team, but doing what they want, not what players expect. It's one way of doing business, that's all.
Are they obtainable in game without using gems - in a reasonable amount of time?
Well, I mean you would be converting gold into gems to obtain them. At a fairly casual gold earning rate (let's just say 20 gold per day, as you can earn much more than this), at the standard conversion rate of 400 gems = 90-100 gold, it would take approximately 5 days to earn one.
I'd call that pretty reasonable, as a hardcore player could easily earn one much faster. It seems to me that the issue people are having is less about the severity of them and more about the fact that they exist as an RNG reward at all. I don't actually care about this issue beyond the possibility for a slippery slope argument. It hardly even rates compared to most of the nonsense in the MMO business.
HAHAHA like all of these peeps really didnt think this would happen???? YES the mounts arent in the game to make you happy,,,, after all they always said GW2 doesnt need mounts,,,,,, They are in the game to make money,,,,, yes thats right boys and girls!!! They are a money make,,, just surprising that it took Anet 5 yr to realize
it!!
Are they obtainable in game without using gems - in a reasonable amount of time?
Well, I mean you would be converting gold into gems to obtain them. At a fairly casual gold earning rate (let's just say 20 gold per day, as you can earn much more than this), at the standard conversion rate of 400 gems = 90-100 gold, it would take approximately 5 days to earn one.
I'd call that pretty reasonable, as a hardcore player could easily earn one much faster. It seems to me that the issue people are having is less about the severity of them and more about the fact that they exist as an RNG reward at all. I don't actually care about this issue beyond the possibility for a slippery slope argument. It hardly even rates compared to most of the nonsense in the MMO business.
To me that sounds pretty reasonable. If they were specifically not allowed to be obtained except through RNG, then I might understand extreme complaining. But the random nature of obtaining something through a loot box that is paid through cash, that is also decently able to be obtained through gameplay seems fair to me. After all, the person that spent the time to obtain one has a guaranteed chance while the person attempting to obtain one through sheer cash does not.
On the other hand, I would personally prefer if they were only provided through gameplay. Giving mounts away through random loot boxes removes some of the prestige of earning mounts through gameplay. When someone sees you riding a loot box mount, they may even resent you before they even know you.
Are they obtainable in game without using gems - in a reasonable amount of time?
Well, I mean you would be converting gold into gems to obtain them. At a fairly casual gold earning rate (let's just say 20 gold per day, as you can earn much more than this), at the standard conversion rate of 400 gems = 90-100 gold, it would take approximately 5 days to earn one.
I'd call that pretty reasonable, as a hardcore player could easily earn one much faster. It seems to me that the issue people are having is less about the severity of them and more about the fact that they exist as an RNG reward at all. I don't actually care about this issue beyond the possibility for a slippery slope argument. It hardly even rates compared to most of the nonsense in the MMO business.
To me that sounds pretty reasonable. If they were specifically not allowed to be obtained except through RNG, then I might understand extreme complaining. But the random nature of obtaining something through a loot box that is paid through cash, that is also decently able to be obtained through gameplay seems fair to me. After all, the person that spent the time to obtain one has a guaranteed chance while the person attempting to obtain one through sheer cash does not.
On the other hand, I would personally prefer if they were only provided through gameplay. Giving mounts away through random loot boxes removes some of the prestige of earning mounts through gameplay. When someone sees you riding a loot box mount, they may even resent you before they even know you.
Guys, have I been alone in the world of MMOs all these years? By now please tell me you realise that it always gets worse. Or tell me of one MMO where a questionable revenue method was removed or somehow scaled back? It may not be RNG only today but it will be at some time in the future, if not for mounts then for something else. Its not a "slippery slope argument" it is how every MMO has behaved since they got a cash shop.
That is an underlying principle of MMO history, every revenue method after subscriptions has pushed the envelope on what is acceptable and unless regulation is brought in they will continue to do so.
Comments
are you guys talking about specifically gambling or scams?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
the closest correlation I can think of to the points trying to be made here would be Joe Camel.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I strongly expect that if this issue does receive government attention, we'll see tens of millions of dollars in corporate lobbying.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
https://wccftech.com/pegi-loot-boxes-cant-define-gambling/
A response from PEGI ... european equivalent of ESRB. It appears to define it as gambling it would have been up to gambling commission, for europe.
They were both born for the same purpose. One passive, the other agressive, respectively.
Scambling?
I think RNG is just a slightly altered form of gambling.
Maybe one day they'll see games/services with monetized RNG as casinos and tax them properly, man that will be a beautiful day.
Well, RNG gods have been governing gw2's shop and drops for quite a while. Especially regarding minis. Now it's become a bit too much, and a bit overpriced. Consider this particular issue as the last drop in the community's patience. The whole RNG/boxes problem been there for years now.
And ANet isn't too famous for actually listening to its community. They're nice team, but doing what they want, not what players expect. It's one way of doing business, that's all.
I'd call that pretty reasonable, as a hardcore player could easily earn one much faster. It seems to me that the issue people are having is less about the severity of them and more about the fact that they exist as an RNG reward at all. I don't actually care about this issue beyond the possibility for a slippery slope argument. It hardly even rates compared to most of the nonsense in the MMO business.
it!!
On the other hand, I would personally prefer if they were only provided through gameplay. Giving mounts away through random loot boxes removes some of the prestige of earning mounts through gameplay. When someone sees you riding a loot box mount, they may even resent you before they even know you.
Guys, have I been alone in the world of MMOs all these years? By now please tell me you realise that it always gets worse. Or tell me of one MMO where a questionable revenue method was removed or somehow scaled back? It may not be RNG only today but it will be at some time in the future, if not for mounts then for something else. Its not a "slippery slope argument" it is how every MMO has behaved since they got a cash shop.
That is an underlying principle of MMO history, every revenue method after subscriptions has pushed the envelope on what is acceptable and unless regulation is brought in they will continue to do so.