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Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien

    Given the person you were responding to agreed with this comment:
    Eldurian said:
    Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.

    What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.

    And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    It's kind of proven at this point that I'm talking about the type of balance that was actually being discussed (New Player vs Veteran Player stat gap) and you are getting way off topic with this idea that every engagement has to have equal number and all that nonsense.

    EVE is the most balanced PvP MMO when it comes to the type of balance we're discussing here. If you want to get off on semantics about other types of balance then that's your deal but it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.
    Steelhelm
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    Given the person you were responding to agreed with this comment:
    Eldurian said:
    Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.

    What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.

    And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    It's kind of proven at this point that I'm talking about the type of balance that was actually being discussed (New Player vs Veteran Player stat gap) and you are getting way off topic with this idea that every engagement has to have equal number and all that nonsense.

    EVE is the most balanced PvP MMO when it comes to the type of balance we're discussing here. If you want to get off on semantics about other types of balance then that's your deal but it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.
    lol again when is that .. This amazing almost never happens miraculous battle of 50 noobs vs 1 vet .. LMFAO .. get a grip on yourself .. Your entire arguement is not relevant as it almost never happens , i dont know if it ever has happened or anything even close to it .. Just because you dream up this amazing sceanrio that makes Eve the Most Balanced in your head , because it could possibly maybe occur. Doesnt make it true .. Whats true is that almost all encounters in Eve are very imbalanced by design ..

      Nearly all encounters in Eve , involve players cruising around looking for players with builds they Know they can beat ... Solo and Small group ... Thats how it is , and most fights are very imbalanced

     But you keep telling your self , its Most Balnced , just because of the ridiculous sceanrio you paint that may have never occured in the history of Eve..

      Most players Know they are going to  win before they even engage ...and that applys to most encounters..
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    Ok. If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced numbers and forms of imbalance that come from player relations and tactics are not a problem in PvP MMOs. These are what people expect from Open World PvP and why they engage in it."

    Then I am in 100% in agreeance with you. We have nothing to argue about.

    If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced stats between veteran and newbs is not a problem and is not hurting the viability of PvP focused MMOs."

    Then I am in 100% disagreement with you, and would say that is the number one factor throttling PvP in MMOs by a factor of manyfold.

    Where does it come into play?

    If I join an MMO in which I would rather be PvPing than PvEing and say "Nah, I'm not going to go PvP yet, I need to level / get better gear first." Then it is a factor that has come into play. And that is a decision people make in MMOs all the damn time.

    But in EVE I often say "Ok. I'll come along in my cheap destroyer/frigate" because I know in EVE my presence makes a difference. Because it's the most balanced MMO when it comes to the type of balance that is actually being discussed and debated.

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Eldurian said:
    Ok. If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced numbers and forms of imbalance that come from player relations and tactics are not a problem in PvP MMOs. These are what people expect from Open World PvP and why they engage in it."

    Then I am in 100% in agreeance with you. We have nothing to argue about.

    If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced stats between veteran and newbs is not a problem and is not hurting the viability of PvP focused MMOs."

    Then I am in 100% disagreement with you, and would say that is the number one factor throttling PvP in MMOs by a factor of manyfold.

    Where does it come into play?

    If I join an MMO in which I would rather be PvPing than PvEing and say "Nah, I'm not going to go PvP yet, I need to level / get better gear first." Then it is a factor that has come into play. And that is a decision people make in MMOs all the damn time.

    But in EVE I often say "Ok. I'll come along in my cheap destroyer/frigate" because I know in EVE my presence makes a difference. Because it's the most balanced MMO when it comes to the type of balance that is actually being discussed and debated.

      Listen man , i agree and stand by your first statement ..

     The second statement is not relevant to me , in todays games that can barely happen , matter a fact most games have systems in place to prevent it now , So it doesnt matter to me .. And i honestly think the entire thought behind that was always  way over blown ..

      And i been doing this since UO launch day , in every single game discussed here to end game encounters .. Ill add ive seen your last statement play out realtive to Eve play out in every other game in this thread .. ANd its a decision that people make in MMOs all the dam time .. And guess what when they make that decision they know dam well they are walking/flying/riding into an encounter Unbalanced to them
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    Loke666 said:
    Scorchien said:"
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
    You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.

    My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.

    Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
    I agree with your comments, and many others here, only in a PvP centric MMO.
    The problem is that if you want a great MMO, you need a lot of buyers. And if you want a lot buyers, you need the masses of players who don't want a PvP centric MMO world.

    The basic fact is that pinatas get tired of being pinatas.

    If you all PvPers ever want a great MMO that includes your open world PvP, you have to give up the freedom to PK all the time for no other reason than for the sake of PvP as you want it.
    It's that simple.
    I proposed an idea farther up the thread, and it's been ignored.
    It would have given you open world PvP anywhere, based on in-game reasons.
    It would allow crime, but with punishment if caught.
    It would satisfy non-PvPers and give them in-game justice.
    It would allow for all players to have their own kind of fun (assuming the game is great), and play in one game world together.

    But NOOOoooo, you all just blow it off, just as you always have done. And the result is as it always was, predictable.
    _No one_ gets a great, world full of life and excitement, MMO.

    You, Loke666, are one of the few exceptions, I know that. I'm speaking to the gaming community at large here.

    ( I look forward to being ignored again. /snark off. )
    ( For the love of all that's holey < not a typo...  )

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Loke666 said:
    Scorchien said:"
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
    You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.

    My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.

    Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
      Nobody is missing any point here , When has anything even remotley close to your examples ever happened ..

                 It hasnt .............ever ................so its not a point ..
    And you cant ask developers to start dedicating resources to Balance content to this Mythical occurrence you speak of ..

        Where is this Legendary Vet piling up 100s of bloodied noobs at his feet .. Where did this occur , I mean such an event must be recorded somewhere ..


              

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien

    Some games do have systems in place to prevent or reduce more powerful characters. A lot certainly don't and PvP that happens between players with massive state gaps happens all the time. Crap like this isn't even uncommon in ArcheAge for instance. It's the majority of the PvP that happens.

    But beyond that, like I said. It's the issue of people deciding not to PvP because they need to address the disparity first. Actual incidents involving vets vs. newbs make PvP suck for the newbs. The need to grind so that they won't be on the low end of a power disparity before they can get involved in PvP enjoyable makes it so that PvP never happens in the first place.

    So lets do a low estimate and say only 25% of PvP takes place in situations which power disparities adversely affect it. (I'd say a lot more because for instance ArcheAge I'd say thats about 80% of the PvP that actually happens, but lets just pretend most games are better at dealing with it.) I'd say for every person out there actually PvPing, there are probably 2 or 3 people who would like to PvP but are grinding instead because they want to address the stat disparity and 5 or 6 people who just opted to go with a MOBA instead because they don't have to deal with that crap there.

    So maybe it's only ruining 25% of PvP in the game, but if 2/3rds of the population are sticking to safer areas to grind and 2 out of 3 people are opting for PvP games that are actually balanced then that's roughly 92% of potential PvP that:

    A. Isn't happening at all because of power disparity.
    B. Is being ruined by power disparity.

    And 8% of PvP that is both happening and being enjoyed by characters that have competitive stats.

    That is why PvP MMOs are one of the most niche genres ever despite PvP games being insanely popular.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    Some games do have systems in place to prevent or reduce more powerful characters. A lot certainly don't and PvP that happens between players with massive state gaps happens all the time. Crap like this isn't even uncommon in ArcheAge for instance. It's the majority of the PvP that happens.

    But beyond that, like I said. It's the issue of people deciding not to PvP because they need to address the disparity first. Actual incidents involving vets vs. newbs make PvP suck for the newbs. The need to grind so that they won't be on the low end of a power disparity before they can get involved in PvP enjoyable makes it so that PvP never happens in the first place.

    So lets do a low estimate and say only 25% of PvP takes place in situations which power disparities adversely affect it. (I'd say a lot more because for instance ArcheAge I'd say thats about 80% of the PvP that actually happens, but lets just pretend most games are better at dealing with it.) I'd say for every person out there actually PvPing, there are probably 2 or 3 people who would like to PvP but are grinding instead because they want to address the stat disparity and 5 or 6 people who just opted to go with a MOBA instead because they don't have to deal with that crap there.

    So maybe it's only ruining 25% of PvP in the game, but if 2/3rds of the population are sticking to safer areas to grind and 2 out of 3 people are opting for PvP games that are actually balanced then that's roughly 92% of potential PvP that:

    A. Isn't happening at all because of power disparity.
    B. Is being ruined by power disparity.

    And 8% of PvP that is both happening and being enjoyed by characters that have competitive stats.

    That is why PvP MMOs are one of the most niche genres ever despite PvP games being insanely popular.
    Cmon man , thats a terrible example , the guy is a famous P2W player . ( P2W is another problem altogether ) and NONE of the people he is fighting is a N00b , they are Lvl 50 in a known PVP zone ...Matter a fact he even tells ya thats why hes winning .. That power Gap is caused by P2W mechainics /period .. And AA is intentionally built that way for the whales that want to stroke themselves ..

      Now if you want to say that P2W causes power gaps that ruin PvP ill agree .. But thats another subject than the one we were discusiing relative to the title "Old School Design Flaws"..Thats a new school Design FLaw :)

       So again im not buying into that .. Everyone of those players was perfectly aware of who they were fighting and the Imbalance caused by the Cash SHOP .. But they engagaed anyway .. They didnt have to, I have 3 toons at max lvl in AA highest with 3650 Gear Score .. I know exactly whats involved ..(My 3650 toon is an Outrider and i actully made that class relevant .. Very hard class to learn , but fun as hell if you do ..)  sidenote

      There were MANY options avavible for them for PVP if they chose where they could find better odds .. Instead of messing with one of the Biggest Whales in AA..

      ANd another note any player that goes into AA , and researeched it for 10 minutes before the Purchase would learn what its about .. If you then click purchase .. lvl up and head into LvL 50 full PvP zones and get ganked by whales , You have no grounds to whine about it ... You know what you walked into ..

      If someone didnt research hit purchase and are in shock and awe after they hit 50 and hit the PvP end game .. that person is an idiot and deserves what they get ...
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    Maybe not everyone finds these elements as desirable as you.

    What is seen as virtue by one is often seen as flaw by another.

    Considering that most of what you mention was once very much the norm for MMORPGs and that a game that departed from them became an industry juggernaut such that it became the new norm suggests that a fair number of people didn't find those game aspects quite so appealing once an alternative was available.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    Yes. If a game is not convenient, i am not going to bother. I am playing games for fun, not to work. 

    There are so many games .. two months is plenty of time for one. 
    alkarionlog
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    @Scorchien

    You do realize the fact that the people in that video not being newbs only strengthens my point right? Any person in that video dying could easily one shot a newb. So the fact they are getting steamrolled by a guy who's taking his hands off the keyboard midfight and saying "Show us your damagey!" highlights the level of imbalance in that game. It's even higher than it would be if those were newbs dying.

    The fact that he's a swiper is irrelevant. The ability to do that shows how ridiculous the imbalance in the game is. However he reached that point.

    That's the thing. That's why EVE is more balanced. He couldn't do that to day 1 newbs in EVE. But he can do it to max level characters who have some of their endgame gear already in ArcheAge.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    You do realize the fact that the people in that video not being newbs only strengthens my point right? Any person in that video dying could easily one shot a newb. So the fact they are getting steamrolled by a guy who's taking his hands off the keyboard midfight and saying "Show us your damagey!" highlights the level of imbalance in that game. It's even higher than it would be if those were newbs dying.

    The fact that he's a swiper is irrelevant. The ability to do that shows how ridiculous the imbalance in the game is. However he reached that point.

    That's the thing. That's why EVE is more balanced. He couldn't do that to day 1 newbs in EVE. But he can do it to max level characters who have some of their endgame gear already in ArcheAge.
      You are completely wrong the fact that he is a Whale and was at that time one of the biggest in all of AA is the only reason he could do that ...

      Its a bad example
     
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    First off you can reach that level many ways in AA. Swiping is not the most effective way unless you have thousands upon thousands to throw down. Ultimately though the most effective way has traditionally been multiboxing/multiaccounting or getting seriously good at playing the AH.

    Second off it is still beyond the point. Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    First off you can reach that level many ways in AA. Swiping is not the most effective way unless you have thousands upon thousands to throw down. Ultimately though the most effective way has traditionally been multiboxing/multiaccounting or getting seriously good at playing the AH.

    Second off it is still beyond the point. Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved. 
    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..

     Swiping imabalance as caused by the blatant P2W mechainics in a game like AA are something else completley different ...

      As you can see in your examp[le it is the polar opposite of teamwork and community as it promotes Solo Epeen stroking ..

            Soooo.................wrong again
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Scorchien said:

    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..
    This conversation was started by you responding to Loke. Loke was discussing stat disparity as an imbalance not these issues, not numbers disparities etc. Nobody is arguing about those issues here.

    Please stop going off-topic.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    Scorchien said:

    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..
    This conversation was started by you responding to Loke. Loke was discussing stat disparity as an imbalance not these issues, not numbers disparities etc. Nobody is arguing about those issues here.

    Please stop going off-topic.
    Lol...    its not off topic at all your statement .............



    "Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved."



      ...made it relevent .. along with your horrible example which is completely off topic , as a P2W New School FLaw .. Not Old School Flaw which is what the Topic is about .. No :)

                           this is getting tiresome .

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Stat imbalance is as old school as the come with MMOs. P2W is just a new method of achieving an old problem. Oh well. There is no arguing with you because your logic is all over the place. No matter how hard I nail you on any point you say something absolutely absurd and take the argument way off in left field just to keep the argument flowing and avoid admitting I am right.

    The thing is I've pretty much nailed you between the eyes on this argument. Loke was discussing stat imbalance. I am discussing stat imbalance.

    So my statement "[Stat] Imbalance is [Stat] imbalance, no matter how it is achieved." is perfectly on-topic.

    However your argument then goes off and tries to pull in completely different forms of imbalance we aren't even discussing by using the incorrect assumption that my argument authorized that.

    But I think it's obvious to everyone but yourself I've been kicking your butt all over the courtyard for this entire debate. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Eldurian said:
    Stat imbalance is as old school as the come with MMOs. P2W is just a new method of achieving an old problem. Oh well. There is no arguing with you because your logic is all over the place. No matter how hard I nail you on any point you say something absolutely absurd and take the argument way off in left field just to keep the argument flowing and avoid admitting I am right.

    The thing is I've pretty much nailed you between the eyes on this argument. Loke was discussing stat imbalance. I am discussing stat imbalance.

    So my statement "[Stat] Imbalance is [Stat] imbalance, no matter how it is achieved." is perfectly on-topic.

    However your argument then goes off and tries to pull in completely different forms of imbalance we aren't even discussing by using the incorrect assumption that my argument authorized that.

    But I think it's obvious to everyone but yourself I've been kicking your butt all over the courtyard for this entire debate. 
    LMFAO ..Pot meet Kettle ...
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    No. You are pretty much the pot and the kettle all to yourself this time. I'm logically explaining my arguments, actually reading what you are saying to understand the context of your statements, and explaining where your arguments have gone astray in their logic.

    You are essentially just trolling and trying to take the argument off topic and ignore the context of my statements so you still have a leg to stand on. Really, that's how pretty much all our debates go but in this one it's just painfully obvious to everyone but yourself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    No. You are pretty much the pot and the kettle all to yourself this time. I'm logically explaining my arguments, actually reading what you are saying to understand the context of your statements, and explaining where your arguments have gone astray in their logic.

    You are essentially just trolling and trying to take the argument off topic and ignore the context of my statements so you still have a leg to stand on. Really, that's how pretty much all our debates go but in this one it's just painfully obvious to everyone but yourself.
       Go back and read the entire thread .. I actually dont care .. But you are wrong again ..

             Tell ya what if you think i was derailing and trolling so badly report it...

       I know the result already ...Because its not true to anyone that takes the time to read the thread  Would say that i also layed out valid points in this discussion While you were busy Insulting and managed  to earn yourself a BAn for belittling others and insulting them , Which is pretty much how all your debates go , but in this one it was painfully obvious .. Obvious enough to get you a bAN ..

      With that i have been Bored to Tears with this ...

      Good Day Sir ....
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien - Unfortunately lacking any form of coherency in your argument and refusing to listen to logic is not a reportable offence. Using the terms one would use to describe a person who behaves in such a manner apparently is even though several people agreed with those posts before they were deleted.
    Scorchien said:
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
    That was very enlightening to learn though. Explains a lot about you. Especially the part where you are seemingly proud of it.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien - Unfortunately lacking any form of coherency in your argument and refusing to listen to logic is not a reportable offence. Using the terms one would use to describe a person who behaves in such a manner apparently is even though several people agreed with those posts before they were deleted.
    Scorchien said:
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
    That was very enlightening to learn though. Explains a lot about you. Especially the part where you are seemingly proud of it.
    Quite proud...

        But like i said ... Let it go man ..

      Good Day Sir ........

     
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited October 2017
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    I agree many of the things people point to aren't flaws, they're just less automatic and/or potentially more tedious or painful. For some players, they're features. For the vast majority of MMORPGs, these things are flaws because most players don't like them.

    I think the more technical something old school is, the more it can be a genuine flaw. Technical things can be mapped out and understood. Non-technical things are like chameleons, they slither and shapeshift. A technical thing might be the frame or canvas or the brush a painter uses. A non-technical might be what he paints, for example a scenery on the countryside or a group of lawmakers in the capital building. You can argue forever about what he paints, but it's easier to come to conclusions about the canvas or framing or the kind or quality of paint used.

    I'll give an example, although this doesn't necessarily represent all old school games. Everquest originally was first-person with no map or GPS system. You had to LOOK and memorize your surroundings. It was very immersive. It gave you the feeling you were in that world and had to be alert. Later on, a map window was added and it showed your location in real-time, as well the location of your group members and your corpse. What I hated about the map was it showed your real-time location. This led to increasingly looking at the map. I'd find myself looking at the map exclusively to get to my group rather than looking at the world. I was playing the UI and mashing buttons. It dawned on me how disconnected that's. In case you think it's jaded glasses or faulty memory, I played Wurm Online in 2012 (and after) and it had no map or gps and minimal UI. I enjoy the s*** out of it!!!! I also played project 1999 in 2010 and 2011. I enjoyed it. So before anybody says I'm just remembering wrong, you're full of yourself. I also quit Everquest 2 after too many quest markers and glowies. It was so in-your-face I finally decided the only way to make a statement is just leave--not argue wastefully in forums.

    There're many other examples of supposed quality of life improvements but which ultimately are not fun at all for me. AS opposed to making the game more convenient and less tedious, I just lose respect for the game and find reasons to quit. End result is this has led me to believe one man's garbage is another man's treasure. These things aren't clear cut issues, they're much more  subjective in nature.

    So before you say "Games need to be fun!" remember "fun" means different things to different gamers. Yes there's a majority audience and it usually has the same understanding of "fun", but don't apply it everybody else.

    So really the best we can hope for is a diverse market. I personally think that's what we have, mostly. I think what gets some of you mad is the niche MMO's aren't AAA. Personally I don't care. There's give and take with everything. Truth be told, I think we're spoiled too. What I see out there sometimes amazes me, and too mnay gamers have no appreciation for it. Makes me want to spit on them.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,395
    edited October 2017
    There are games out there that are hardcore. I don't understand why you aren't playing them?

    A mega-studio is not going to create a game for a niche market. They are looking to make hundreds of millions. Not a penny less. Blizzard will never make another MMO when it can create these quick, comparatively cheap arena games that crush WoW's revenue even at its height.
    [Deleted User]
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