Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I'm not against people spending their money how they want. I'm against the predatory practices CIG employs to get ships sold or the insane price for something that is just a picture and might not be flyable for years to come, if ever, in a game that may or may not ever see the light of day.
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
However, we are talking about MMO, and specifically a 850$ ship that's being sold for that MMO.
...If you cannot fly, you die .. not matter which ship you are in.
Have fun
to be fair that would make for a bad game design. not to mention I dont really think that is 100% accurate anyway.
That's the game design many of us have been praying for in MMOs for a long, long, long time. So to so say that making a game skill based is "bad game design" is based entirely on your opinion. Just as I would say basing victory on stats is "bad game design". Though if the outpouring of players from the entire MMO genre into games where PvP victories are based on player skill is any indication, I think my opinion holds a bit more sway in the audience of gamers as a whole even if MMO designers have missed that point.
And it is absolutely true. Buy as big and powerful of a ships as you want in Star Citizen. You are a big slow moving target with heavy armor and powerful guns. If you are a good aim and can land your hits then you can light up fighters in more powerful ships pretty easy. If not, they will dance around you all day long until you die. Also when you consider that it takes many people to fully staff the big ships but one pilot per most fighters you have to consider that 5 fighters vs. a single 5 man ship is more of a fair comparison than one 5 man ship vs. 1 fighter.
Even in the latter scenario fighters are tearing up big ships quite often in Arena Commander though. They're supposed to be rebalancing big ships actually. They are working on turret controls to make it so you can't hit your own ship from a gunner seat, in the full version larger ships are supposed to have longer range on one fuel tank than a fighter, and the armor deflection rate is probably going up a bit.
Because in current Arena Commander it is actually too easy to kill the bigger ships from a smaller one. Not as in you don't get what you paid for. As in man-for-man the smaller ships have too heavy of an advantage.
Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I'm not against people spending their money how they want. I'm against the predatory practices CIG employs to get ships sold or the insane price for something that is just a picture and might not be flyable for years to come, if ever, in a game that may or may not ever see the light of day.
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
I agree that it's a risky purchase and I wouldn't do it. I'm just hoping that SC makes it, so that all those ppl don't lose their money.
Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I'm not against people spending their money how they want. I'm against the predatory practices CIG employs to get ships sold or the insane price for something that is just a picture and might not be flyable for years to come, if ever, in a game that may or may not ever see the light of day.
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
Honest question, how do you consider it a predatory act? Because quite a few of these ships that people keep labeling as just pictures, are flyable.
https://imgur.com/a/gp6mA Last updated on the 2nd of this month and doesn't include anything in 3.0 until it's on the PU
25 flyable, 15 flyable/being updated, 4 long term 9 hanger ready/being updated, 1 long term 10 in active production, 11 in long term 8 still in concept.
would 100% agree if the majority were still in concept, but it's the opposite, though i maybe missing something completely.
Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I'm not against people spending their money how they want. I'm against the predatory practices CIG employs to get ships sold or the insane price for something that is just a picture and might not be flyable for years to come, if ever, in a game that may or may not ever see the light of day.
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
Honest question, how do you consider it a predatory act? Because quite a few of these ships that people keep labeling as just pictures, are flyable.
https://imgur.com/a/gp6mA Last updated on the 2nd of this month and doesn't include anything in 3.0 until it's on the PU
25 flyable, 15 flyable/being updated, 4 long term 9 hanger ready/being updated, 1 long term 10 in active production, 11 in long term 8 still in concept.
would 100% agree if the majority were still in concept, but it's the opposite, though i maybe missing something completely.
being flyable and playable is another semantics argument. Its one of those areas the fraud aspects of different countries havent been willing to delve into. SC might be the thing that does it and will in years to come be known for THAT (rather than delivering the best damn space game ever).
Just because there is a tiny little buggy and broken area for these people to access these things they paid hundreds and thousands of dollars for still doesnt mean they got what they paid for, (even if they think they did) a lot of victims of fraud dont feel like victims thats why there is so much fraud. Or they think theyre too smart to be conned.
And while people love to keep claiming this isnt a con or a scam or a scheme because 'theyre still working on it and updating it' there is no proof it isnt. So while its hard to prove a negative its hard to convince people theyre being stupid.
Like I said the complete lack of willingness of any agency anywhere to investigate this (unless they are secretly) is amazing. At least an independent audit of where the funds are going and how much has actually been spent developing the game.
Again it shouldnt be up- to the backers/victims to want this or even dissuade it. It should be up to people who are supposedly trying to protect these people to be checking up on this. From the amount of money raised to the number of ships sold (with not even a jpeg, this is just another example) to the money made from selling other ships that havent made it into the test bed, to a dozen other things. This whole project is rife with issues. But absolutely zero accountability.
And while people want to call that 'hate' or 'toxic' its common sense if it were some other entity doing it a lot of these white knights would more than likely be calling for a full investigation of every aspect of whatever they wanted looked into.
Like I said its unlikely to happen and even if it does it probably doesnt stick to them but it could very well be the benchmark example and see the types of oversight I am looking for come into existence.
Why do people say, "You don't have to buy one." Like it's something that never occurred to the other person?
Only rebuttal they have when you bring up the insane price for a picture
people pay millions for just 'a picture.' Different ppl put different value on different things. I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I'm not against people spending their money how they want. I'm against the predatory practices CIG employs to get ships sold or the insane price for something that is just a picture and might not be flyable for years to come, if ever, in a game that may or may not ever see the light of day.
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
Honest question, how do you consider it a predatory act? Because quite a few of these ships that people keep labeling as just pictures, are flyable.
https://imgur.com/a/gp6mA Last updated on the 2nd of this month and doesn't include anything in 3.0 until it's on the PU
25 flyable, 15 flyable/being updated, 4 long term 9 hanger ready/being updated, 1 long term 10 in active production, 11 in long term 8 still in concept.
would 100% agree if the majority were still in concept, but it's the opposite, though i maybe missing something completely.
Predatory in the fact that "this is a one time sale! Ship will never be offered again!" And then people buy them in droves cause they think it's a one time run and then a year later CIG decides to bring them back for another limited run.
Or make sure you get LTI now! It's going away forever!! And then they bring it back on all new ship sales. Or buy now cause it will be the cheapest it will ever be! Once it hits the hanger it's more expensive and then once it can actually be flown it will be even more expensive! Which prompts people to buy now just in case.
Yes I realize these are common marketing practices but doesn't make them any better
I don't mind a little pay to win. But buying everything should be affordable for everyone with a job in the region it's distributed, not just 1%'ers or people who make poor financial decisions.
CIG does want to release a game, they're just not great at getting it out, as they are labouring under a substantial millstone. Roberts is a terrible manager, but he likes the limelight, so he won't ever step away. The adulation keeps him in center frame. He gets to strut around like a big man on campus with his huge development team. And ego. Bad management and uncontrolled expansion of goals/designs leads to more expensive ships for sale. Their cash flow is extensive.
They know they have a bunch of folks who've bought in. Lifestyle branding has worked.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
Ambitious fresh take on a new MMO starting development + Falling in the hands of biggest MMO publishers = Cancelled.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
While I can see both sides, the ousting of the publisher with regards to super-ambitious projects hasn't yet proven to be in the gamer's best interest.
The eventual fate of SC will be the primary driving factor of the industry's conclusion surrounding said ouster.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
Ambitious fresh take on a new MMO starting development + Falling in the hands of biggest MMO publishers = Cancelled.
Lack of a publisher is why SC barely exists, after this amount of time and money. If the game ever releases in a decent state, get back to me, and maybe I'll change my mind. Until then, it's all concepts and talk without direction.
While I can see both sides, the ousting of the publisher with regards to super-ambitious projects hasn't yet proven to be in the gamer's best interest.
The eventual fate of SC will be the primary driving factor of the industry's conclusion surrounding said ouster.
I have given on my edit the example of Everquest Next.
It would have been an amazing fresh design the MMO genre so desperately needs, they had the ambition to do something new instead of milking the existent formula as everyone else. I was so disappointed to find their ill fate once they felt in the hands of Daybreak.
The "necessary evil" will continue to drag the genre back for as long they are so unwilling to take risks. But gladly, it doesn't depend on them to happen anymore.
Lack of a publisher is why SC barely exists, after this amount of time and money. If the game ever releases in a decent state, get back to me, and maybe I'll change my mind.
Yes because with one it wouldn't exist because they wouldn't get one willing to invest such high numbers on something of this scope and scale, being the game a space sim and not a casual mainstream game, not their type of game.
While the video looked cool, so did the video of Watch Dogs before it released.
Hype is easy to make, it's a truly fun, innovative game that's elusive. EQ Next might've been great, or it might've been a mess. The fact that it never made release could hardly he considered ample evidence that publishers are a net loss for gamers.
While the video looked cool, so did the video of Watch Dogs before it released.
Hype is easy to make, it's a truly fun, innovative game that's elusive. EQ Next might've been great, or it might've been a mess. The fact that it never made release could hardly he considered ample evidence that publishers are a net loss for gamers.
Publishers in the MMO genre for me, are cancer, a tumor that just milks the same formula for well over one decade already, and players who grow sick and tired of more of the same.
That's why I'm not going to attack someone trying to do something new because the risk it might or might not work out, at least someone is having a go at it, so is SC, so is DU, and some others in this genre, almost all of the ongoing ambitious MMO projects do not have a publisher, it's almost as the words ambition and publisher are incompatible.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
Ambitious fresh take on a new MMO starting development + Falling in the hands of biggest MMO publishers = Cancelled.
What risk, they are using other people's money. At the end of the day if this goes belly up nothing is lost by CR or those behind SC.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
Ambitious fresh take on a new MMO starting development + Falling in the hands of biggest MMO publishers = Cancelled.
What risk, they are using other people's money. At the end of the day if this goes belly up nothing is lost by CR or those behind SC.
Not true! They won't have a way to milk people for easy money and CR might have to do some real work for a change.
Honest question, how do you consider it a predatory act? Because quite a few of these ships that people keep labeling as just pictures, are flyable.
https://imgur.com/a/gp6mA Last updated on the 2nd of this month and doesn't include anything in 3.0 until it's on the PU
25 flyable, 15 flyable/being updated, 4 long term 9 hanger ready/being updated, 1 long term 10 in active production, 11 in long term 8 still in concept.
would 100% agree if the majority were still in concept, but it's the opposite, though i maybe missing something completely.
Predatory in the fact that "this is a one time sale! Ship will never be offered again!" And then people buy them in droves cause they think it's a one time run and then a year later CIG decides to bring them back for another limited run.
Or make sure you get LTI now! It's going away forever!! And then they bring it back on all new ship sales. Or buy now cause it will be the cheapest it will ever be! Once it hits the hanger it's more expensive and then once it can actually be flown it will be even more expensive! Which prompts people to buy now just in case.
Yes I realize these are common marketing practices but doesn't make them any better
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
And look at the great status of the gaming scenario with them around!
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
Ambitious fresh take on a new MMO starting development + Falling in the hands of biggest MMO publishers = Cancelled.
What risk, they are using other people's money. At the end of the day if this goes belly up nothing is lost by CR or those behind SC.
Yep, they have the opportunity to squander other peoples' $150 million and get rich along the way. With no repercussions. What, exactly, is their incentive for trying very hard?
I don't think they started out trying to squander peoples money but I do think their eyes got bigger than their bellies so to speak. It probably would have been wiser to go full on all out on Squadron 42, released it then moved on to all the stretch goals for the persistent universe part afterwards.
I don't think they started out trying to squander peoples money but I do think their eyes got bigger than their bellies so to speak. It probably would have been wiser to go full on all out on Squadron 42, released it then moved on to all the stretch goals for the persistent universe part afterwards.
Except if SQ42 got panned then backers would have lost faith in the rest of the project and bye bye money. Easier to keep the hype train going
Comments
I think the prices are ridiculous, but they don't need to justify or apologize for it. If they want to charge these prices and ppl are willing to buy, then more power to them. I personally wouldn't take the risk before something is released, but ppl obviously have discretionary funds. Let them be happy.
I self identify as a monkey.
what worries me is that most of these ships haven't even been designed yet, ship debt and all that jazz..
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Some posters on here like to try to turn the argument into "why can't people spend their money how they want" in order to detract from the real argument cause it's the only rebuttal they have.
And it is absolutely true. Buy as big and powerful of a ships as you want in Star Citizen. You are a big slow moving target with heavy armor and powerful guns. If you are a good aim and can land your hits then you can light up fighters in more powerful ships pretty easy. If not, they will dance around you all day long until you die. Also when you consider that it takes many people to fully staff the big ships but one pilot per most fighters you have to consider that 5 fighters vs. a single 5 man ship is more of a fair comparison than one 5 man ship vs. 1 fighter.
Even in the latter scenario fighters are tearing up big ships quite often in Arena Commander though. They're supposed to be rebalancing big ships actually. They are working on turret controls to make it so you can't hit your own ship from a gunner seat, in the full version larger ships are supposed to have longer range on one fuel tank than a fighter, and the armor deflection rate is probably going up a bit.
Because in current Arena Commander it is actually too easy to kill the bigger ships from a smaller one. Not as in you don't get what you paid for. As in man-for-man the smaller ships have too heavy of an advantage.
I self identify as a monkey.
https://imgur.com/a/gp6mA
Last updated on the 2nd of this month and doesn't include anything in 3.0 until it's on the PU
25 flyable, 15 flyable/being updated, 4 long term
9 hanger ready/being updated, 1 long term
10 in active production, 11 in long term
8 still in concept.
would 100% agree if the majority were still in concept, but it's the opposite, though i maybe missing something completely.
Just because there is a tiny little buggy and broken area for these people to access these things they paid hundreds and thousands of dollars for still doesnt mean they got what they paid for, (even if they think they did) a lot of victims of fraud dont feel like victims thats why there is so much fraud. Or they think theyre too smart to be conned.
And while people love to keep claiming this isnt a con or a scam or a scheme because 'theyre still working on it and updating it' there is no proof it isnt. So while its hard to prove a negative its hard to convince people theyre being stupid.
Like I said the complete lack of willingness of any agency anywhere to investigate this (unless they are secretly) is amazing. At least an independent audit of where the funds are going and how much has actually been spent developing the game.
Again it shouldnt be up- to the backers/victims to want this or even dissuade it. It should be up to people who are supposedly trying to protect these people to be checking up on this. From the amount of money raised to the number of ships sold (with not even a jpeg, this is just another example) to the money made from selling other ships that havent made it into the test bed, to a dozen other things. This whole project is rife with issues. But absolutely zero accountability.
And while people want to call that 'hate' or 'toxic' its common sense if it were some other entity doing it a lot of these white knights would more than likely be calling for a full investigation of every aspect of whatever they wanted looked into.
Like I said its unlikely to happen and even if it does it probably doesnt stick to them but it could very well be the benchmark example and see the types of oversight I am looking for come into existence.
Or make sure you get LTI now! It's going away forever!! And then they bring it back on all new ship sales. Or buy now cause it will be the cheapest it will ever be! Once it hits the hanger it's more expensive and then once it can actually be flown it will be even more expensive! Which prompts people to buy now just in case.
Yes I realize these are common marketing practices but doesn't make them any better
They know they have a bunch of folks who've bought in. Lifestyle branding has worked.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Lack of publishers at the yoke is killing this industry. Turns out they're a necessary evil, like most bosses are.
The "necessary evil" that publishers are, is why SC would never exist if it depended on them, taking high financial risks on a project of this scale and ambition would be a no-go from the start.
Such as Everquest Next:
The eventual fate of SC will be the primary driving factor of the industry's conclusion surrounding said ouster.
Lack of a publisher is why SC barely exists, after this amount of time and money. If the game ever releases in a decent state, get back to me, and maybe I'll change my mind. Until then, it's all concepts and talk without direction.
It would have been an amazing fresh design the MMO genre so desperately needs, they had the ambition to do something new instead of milking the existent formula as everyone else. I was so disappointed to find their ill fate once they felt in the hands of Daybreak.
The "necessary evil" will continue to drag the genre back for as long they are so unwilling to take risks. But gladly, it doesn't depend on them to happen anymore.
Yes because with one it wouldn't exist because they wouldn't get one willing to invest such high numbers on something of this scope and scale, being the game a space sim and not a casual mainstream game, not their type of game.
Hype is easy to make, it's a truly fun, innovative game that's elusive. EQ Next might've been great, or it might've been a mess. The fact that it never made release could hardly he considered ample evidence that publishers are a net loss for gamers.
That's why I'm not going to attack someone trying to do something new because the risk it might or might not work out, at least someone is having a go at it, so is SC, so is DU, and some others in this genre, almost all of the ongoing ambitious MMO projects do not have a publisher, it's almost as the words ambition and publisher are incompatible.
Yep, they have the opportunity to squander other peoples' $150 million and get rich along the way. With no repercussions. What, exactly, is their incentive for trying very hard?