What made it fun was server pride and you literally knew everyone that was on in your time zone and any gear upgrade you got was meaningful. Bring that back. Things I don't miss are corpse runs and grinding a week to get a level.
Old school games were horrible. Corpse runs. Slow leveling. Camping. Loot drama. I am glad they are all gone.
100% Disagree. Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999. It's far more than the community. It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something. Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice. No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why? Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage. I couldn't disagree more with your post.
Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why? I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.
Working hard?, by camping pointless trash mobs for weeks? Or sitting hours on end for a dungeon because you needed a healer? What is working hard?, they were not hard to kill, there were not anything hard or challenging of any sort, they were time consuming nothing else.
You call that a challenge? I call that bad mechanic.
I'm at a loss here. Are you saying that older MMO's weren't more challenging? They definitely were.
In old school MMO's you fought one mob and hoped that you didn't get an add. Nowadays MMO's you try to kill as many at one time as possible, "another group of mobs coming while I kill these 12? That's fine I can handle 4 more!"
While waiting for a healer or CC might not be fun, it was because the world required it. It wasn't face-roll easy that any "melee" class could tank it, you needed to specialize being a tank, or a healer, or a CC. There was not today's "anybody can be everything" games which when the poop hits the fan your dps can just switch to healing.
Agreed. Remember those bad pulls? Or roaming adds? Just two extra mobs could spell death for your group if you did not have a good healer or CC...even then no guarantees depending on how many you got. Regular mob grinding was a challenge.
all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.
I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.
I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
Old School MMORPG's were better because of 4 reasons...
1. Community - The genre pre-wow was filled with specific RPG gamers who wanted to explore a vast open world with other people. MMORPG's created two spectrums. A social experience with other players around the country/world and an open explorable 3d world. I would say that the community portion suffered.
2. Immersion - I felt that I have more immersive feelings about playing Everquest than any other MMORPG since. Perhaps some of it was simply based off it was my first MMORPG experience. I think what made old school mmo's immersive wasn't their polished graphics, but the little things. Ambient wilderness music, no icons above NPC's heads guiding you, no quest hubs.
3. Challenge - I think this is something that has simmered down quite extensively during most assets of gameplay to cater to the super casual mmo player. I remember when the wilderness of zones were a dangerous place and if you went the wrong way, you died.
4. Variety - I think old school mmo's provided more variety to various types of gameplay elements and things you can do in game. It made the gameplay feel substantial because it felt like there was a lot to do. Of course this reason is purely subjective because you can still argue today that mmo's provides variety of content. I guess I'd prefer the Everquest approach to variety.
all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.
I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.
True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?
My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.
I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.
True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?
My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.
If you die to honor your memory I'll name my toons Kinky Ky, may you rest in peace.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
There is something (other than nostalgia) behind the desire for old school games. However, most people do not understand what it is, or why it is missing in modern games. The key element that is missing is community (which some people see), but people do not understand why.
Successful older games had a common design flaw, in addition to their unique set of issues. This common flaw was downtime. When the game physically forced users to take a break (while being unable to leave the game due to the danger level), they used that time time to interact with each other. This social engagement allowed them to work together to overcome the games challenges (as well as its unique flaws). This sense of community was built on a foundation of actually overcoming challenges.
Todays games are less flawed (both technically and in game environment), and the industry itself has evolved. There is no longer a need/desire for gamers to spend many long hard hours of play to get achievable results. There is also no longer the 'dead' time where players sit and work out how they have to work with/around the game to get the results. There is also an on line infrastructure that allows for asynchronous communication of these issues, without the need for a community.
Basically, old school games sucked. People formed communities to get past this, because there were no better alternatives. Todays games are not as bad, and people would rather enjoy the games, than spend their time/effort to try to make them work.
Modern server = has all the amenities Old server = like the old timers want (tougher mobs, corpse run, no fast travel, etc)
Just have different server types, don't know why it is so difficult to do. Should be just a bunch of flags that can be turned on or off.
Every time you die, you get two options, instant corpse return or corpse run (on one server the other option is grayed out and on the other server, the other option is greyed out) .
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
me ? Old school = no instances , no "you are hero" quests , true massive multiplayer . (aka stay true to what MMORPG mean) WOW generation = instances , singleplayer RPG disguise as MMORPG (aka fake products with MMORPG label)
1. Ridiculous Time Sinks 2. Nostalgia 3. Outdated Game Design
Not that I hate them all. I still miss Star Wars Galaxies and I also have fond memories about Anarchy Online. But at the same time I loathe oldschool WoW and more crap from that era.
1. Ridiculous Time Sinks 2. Nostalgia 3. Outdated Game Design
Not that I hate them all. I still miss Star Wars Galaxies and I also have fond memories about Anarchy Online. But at the same time I loathe oldschool WoW and more crap from that era.
Some of the games were quite good. Saying they sucked by judging with today's standards is not fair.
Old school concept is very simple: It is an mmorpg created for immersion and inherits the values of the origins of the genre.
If you do no know the origins of the genre ... that is where your confusion begins.
Most of you are defining the games by their mechanics and that is completely wrong. They tried to create worlds and worlds are defined by limitations, the very physics with defines them. Old school mmorpgs can be build in many different ways as we will see in the newer ones in development. Breaking the most basic concept of immersion however is what they attempt not to do.
all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.
I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.
True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?
My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.
You are quite right the baulk of players now play more than one MMO at a time, along with the two or more solo games they are playing. The difference in gameplay means it is not such an issue, I did not realise that was the case as I don't follow games until they actually come out.
Hopefully you have not used up too many of your nine lives and will be with us for their launch.
Looks like someone played one old MMO and decided that 'old school' MMO design was bad.
All MMOs have issues and whether or not you like any particular part of an game is going to boil down to personal preference. From what I can gather about your post though, you seem like nothing more than an impatient child. Modern MMOs are geared towards kids that like action combat and have no desire to do anything other than 'win'.
Going by what played I in the past. UO SHADOWBANE, Alot of it was the mystery of it all truly not knowing what lies beyond that hill or dungeon. the danger of a corpse run when your body is surrounded by the mob that killed you(if you didn't fall) getting close enough to respawn you gear and book it so you don't die again. collecting death shrouds in UO after dying for a few reagents. Like a lot said finding a good guild to run with. the effort of a dungeon run was worth it
We are all guilty of lazy MMO in the modern era though. We didn't have 14 youtube videos showing us how to open every chest back during 'old school' MMOs but we don't need to use them now. We still do.
Long ago in college I read about a psychology experiment. Three test groups were given an opportunity to join a club. What they had to do to gain club membership ranged from easy, medium, to hard. The people who had to do hard things to join their club were overwhelmingly the most supportive of the value of that club (and wanted to keep meeting even after the experiment was over).
And so it is with mmorpgs. Those of us who played these games when they had very few convenience features and many additional challenges will always feel our "club" is special.
That said, it's not just that. The games were different in the ways people claim. The world felt more like a world because you couldn't just zip around everywhere. There was a more palpable sense of danger and of the consequence of error or bad luck. Your player reputation mattered. It took much longer to do most things which increased the value and sense of accomplishment from those things. Player cooperation and co-dependency was truly essential.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
From what I can gather about your post though, you seem like nothing more than an impatient child.
wow wow wow .. adults cannot be impatient? I bet there are millions of impatient adults wanting to see the new Thor movies now.
And if i have any patience .. that is reserve for my wife, kids, and probably work. I don't see why i need to be patient for my entertainment. If a game is not fun for the first 15 min, there is always another one.
And there are tons of RPGs built for impatient people. You never play Diablo? No need to talk or "be in a community". Just click a button and you kill stuff.
It's simple. Old school MMORPGs (EQ1) were better because:
1. They were difficult. 2. Doing things took perseverance and time. 3. You felt a great attachment to your character. 4. Death meant something so that there was danger and thrill. 5. Almost everything worth doing required a guild/friends. 6. You had to figure out things for yourself and actually use your brain.
Modern MMO's are trite, petty and nothing you do means anything or gives you a sense of accomplishment.
It's simple. Old school MMORPGs (EQ1) were better because:
1. They were difficult. 2. Doing things took perseverance and time. 3. You felt a great attachment to your character. 4. Death meant something so that there was danger and thrill. 5. Almost everything worth doing required a guild/friends. 6. You had to figure out things for yourself and actually use your brain.
Modern MMO's are trite, petty and nothing you do means anything or gives you a sense of accomplishment.
EQ were never so hard you had to use your brain, what kind if stupid thing to say, you try to blow up EQ game to be some extra hard difficult that low brain capacity players cant handle the game?
I started EQ in 99 in Freeport. After days, I finally ventured out and ended up in N Karana. A guard killed me because I was a Shadowknight Human. I started naked back in Freeport. I went to E Commons tunnels and 10 players gladly escorted me there to get my corpse. We formed a guild that lasted for 8 years. I'm still friends irl with all of them. Orc groups were super easy to get at low levels. Then there was Oasis where you would be medding on the docks and die because someone trained sand giants or spectres. Every zone in that game had a story for me. Guild parties jumping off the Eastern Wastes bridge. 48 hour ToV raids. That time to me was like magic, and I really, really hope Pantheon brings back that spirit.
i remember some old school games had heavy p2w, you had koreans sell their house for one weapon on lineage 1 but nobody complained about it at the time lol. the most nostalgic old school games for me are maplestory, ragnarok and great merchant. all of them are surprisingly running (darkages as well but i always hated their netcode, it's so difficult to enjoy it from overseas)
I only played one old school MMO - SWG - so don't have much first hand experience of that era.
However, my opinion is that the primary difference is the overall design philosophy that underpins the games. With the birth of genre, there seemed to be two main competing designs. The first is a virtual world, UO and SWG are examples of this. They second is a digital version of D&D, like EQ or AC.
The implementations of these approaches varied massively - it was a brave new world and nobody really had a clue what they were doing - which is why we got some really hardcore games, some easy ones, some with pvp, some without etc. But what these early games had in common was they all relied on other people.
By trying to create virtual world, or by trying to digitise the magic of coop boardgames, early developers invariably had to focus on social systems. sometimes this meant focused on coop combat (trinity), sometimes it meant a player economy, sometimes it meant social classes. But, this focus on social systems resulted in communities being created and established. These communities were necessary for us as players but due to a wide variety in quality of gameplay, the communities also felt more important as they would help us gloss over rough part of the games we were playing.
Over time, the design philosophy has changed. Rather than trying to create virtual worlds, the focus is now on story and features. Players no longer choose games because they want to experience the virtual world, they go because that game has better raiding, or they prefer that style of pvp, or because its got 1000 hours of questing, or because its action combat instead of tab-targetting.
The result has been that individual features have vastly improved compared to old school games, but that MMOs no longer provide a coherent overall experience. Leveling and endgame feel like completely separate games. Soloing or grouping require two entirely separate skillsets. PvP is often hidden away in a corner, rather than being part of the living world. Crafting is almost entirely meaningless. Socialising no longer has much benefit to the player. All these separate activities then create barriers between players - "sorry, you can't come raiding because your gear is too crap" - which then prevents strong, stable communities from forming.
I wouldn't want to give up the advances we have made over the years to individual features to blindly return to the old school. That said, I find that without that overall cohesion and social focus, my motivation drops dramatically. A really great combat system can sustain me for a while, for example, but without some larger social purpose (like RvR, or downing tough world bosses, or farming rare mats for the top crafters), my motivation wears off quickly.
Comments
Old school games were horrible. Corpse runs. Slow leveling. Camping. Loot drama. I am glad they are all gone.
I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
1. Community - The genre pre-wow was filled with specific RPG gamers who wanted to explore a vast open world with other people. MMORPG's created two spectrums. A social experience with other players around the country/world and an open explorable 3d world. I would say that the community portion suffered.
2. Immersion - I felt that I have more immersive feelings about playing Everquest than any other MMORPG since. Perhaps some of it was simply based off it was my first MMORPG experience. I think what made old school mmo's immersive wasn't their polished graphics, but the little things. Ambient wilderness music, no icons above NPC's heads guiding you, no quest hubs.
3. Challenge - I think this is something that has simmered down quite extensively during most assets of gameplay to cater to the super casual mmo player. I remember when the wilderness of zones were a dangerous place and if you went the wrong way, you died.
4. Variety - I think old school mmo's provided more variety to various types of gameplay elements and things you can do in game. It made the gameplay feel substantial because it felt like there was a lot to do. Of course this reason is purely subjective because you can still argue today that mmo's provides variety of content. I guess I'd prefer the Everquest approach to variety.
True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?
My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Successful older games had a common design flaw, in addition to their unique set of issues. This common flaw was downtime. When the game physically forced users to take a break (while being unable to leave the game due to the danger level), they used that time time to interact with each other. This social engagement allowed them to work together to overcome the games challenges (as well as its unique flaws). This sense of community was built on a foundation of actually overcoming challenges.
Todays games are less flawed (both technically and in game environment), and the industry itself has evolved. There is no longer a need/desire for gamers to spend many long hard hours of play to get achievable results. There is also no longer the 'dead' time where players sit and work out how they have to work with/around the game to get the results. There is also an on line infrastructure that allows for asynchronous communication of these issues, without the need for a community.
Basically, old school games sucked. People formed communities to get past this, because there were no better alternatives. Todays games are not as bad, and people would rather enjoy the games, than spend their time/effort to try to make them work.
Make a game with different types of servers.
Modern server = has all the amenities
Old server = like the old timers want (tougher mobs, corpse run, no fast travel, etc)
Just have different server types, don't know why it is so difficult to do. Should be just a bunch of flags that can be turned on or off.
Every time you die, you get two options, instant corpse return or corpse run (on one server the other option is grayed out and on the other server, the other option is greyed out) .
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Old school = no instances , no "you are hero" quests , true massive multiplayer . (aka stay true to what MMORPG mean)
WOW generation = instances , singleplayer RPG disguise as MMORPG (aka fake products with MMORPG label)
1. Ridiculous Time Sinks
2. Nostalgia
3. Outdated Game Design
Not that I hate them all. I still miss Star Wars Galaxies and I also have fond memories about Anarchy Online. But at the same time I loathe oldschool WoW and more crap from that era.
Old school concept is very simple: It is an mmorpg created for immersion and inherits the values of the origins of the genre.
If you do no know the origins of the genre ... that is where your confusion begins.
Most of you are defining the games by their mechanics and that is completely wrong. They tried to create worlds and worlds are defined by limitations, the very physics with defines them. Old school mmorpgs can be build in many different ways as we will see in the newer ones in development. Breaking the most basic concept of immersion however is what they attempt not to do.
You stay sassy!
You are quite right the baulk of players now play more than one MMO at a time, along with the two or more solo games they are playing. The difference in gameplay means it is not such an issue, I did not realise that was the case as I don't follow games until they actually come out.
Hopefully you have not used up too many of your nine lives and will be with us for their launch.
All MMOs have issues and whether or not you like any particular part of an game is going to boil down to personal preference. From what I can gather about your post though, you seem like nothing more than an impatient child. Modern MMOs are geared towards kids that like action combat and have no desire to do anything other than 'win'.
In other words; RPGs are not for you.
And so it is with mmorpgs. Those of us who played these games when they had very few convenience features and many additional challenges will always feel our "club" is special.
That said, it's not just that. The games were different in the ways people claim. The world felt more like a world because you couldn't just zip around everywhere. There was a more palpable sense of danger and of the consequence of error or bad luck. Your player reputation mattered. It took much longer to do most things which increased the value and sense of accomplishment from those things. Player cooperation and co-dependency was truly essential.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
wow wow wow .. adults cannot be impatient? I bet there are millions of impatient adults wanting to see the new Thor movies now.
And if i have any patience .. that is reserve for my wife, kids, and probably work. I don't see why i need to be patient for my entertainment. If a game is not fun for the first 15 min, there is always another one.
And there are tons of RPGs built for impatient people. You never play Diablo? No need to talk or "be in a community". Just click a button and you kill stuff.
1. They were difficult.
2. Doing things took perseverance and time.
3. You felt a great attachment to your character.
4. Death meant something so that there was danger and thrill.
5. Almost everything worth doing required a guild/friends.
6. You had to figure out things for yourself and actually use your brain.
Modern MMO's are trite, petty and nothing you do means anything or gives you a sense of accomplishment.
EQ were never so hard you had to use your brain, what kind if stupid thing to say, you try to blow up EQ game to be some extra hard difficult that low brain capacity players cant handle the game?
However, my opinion is that the primary difference is the overall design philosophy that underpins the games. With the birth of genre, there seemed to be two main competing designs. The first is a virtual world, UO and SWG are examples of this. They second is a digital version of D&D, like EQ or AC.
The implementations of these approaches varied massively - it was a brave new world and nobody really had a clue what they were doing - which is why we got some really hardcore games, some easy ones, some with pvp, some without etc. But what these early games had in common was they all relied on other people.
By trying to create virtual world, or by trying to digitise the magic of coop boardgames, early developers invariably had to focus on social systems. sometimes this meant focused on coop combat (trinity), sometimes it meant a player economy, sometimes it meant social classes. But, this focus on social systems resulted in communities being created and established. These communities were necessary for us as players but due to a wide variety in quality of gameplay, the communities also felt more important as they would help us gloss over rough part of the games we were playing.
Over time, the design philosophy has changed. Rather than trying to create virtual worlds, the focus is now on story and features. Players no longer choose games because they want to experience the virtual world, they go because that game has better raiding, or they prefer that style of pvp, or because its got 1000 hours of questing, or because its action combat instead of tab-targetting.
The result has been that individual features have vastly improved compared to old school games, but that MMOs no longer provide a coherent overall experience. Leveling and endgame feel like completely separate games. Soloing or grouping require two entirely separate skillsets. PvP is often hidden away in a corner, rather than being part of the living world. Crafting is almost entirely meaningless. Socialising no longer has much benefit to the player. All these separate activities then create barriers between players - "sorry, you can't come raiding because your gear is too crap" - which then prevents strong, stable communities from forming.
I wouldn't want to give up the advances we have made over the years to individual features to blindly return to the old school. That said, I find that without that overall cohesion and social focus, my motivation drops dramatically. A really great combat system can sustain me for a while, for example, but without some larger social purpose (like RvR, or downing tough world bosses, or farming rare mats for the top crafters), my motivation wears off quickly.