Difficulty is the wrong word to use I think. I think what people are looking for is surprise, the unexpected, to be challenged because what they are facing is unique and not mentioned in Wiki article #217.
It looked like EQNext was going in that direction with emergent story telling but that one got shot in the head....
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Difficulty is the wrong word to use I think. I think what people are looking for is surprise, the unexpected, to be challenged because what they are facing is unique and not mentioned in Wiki article #217.
It looked like EQNext was going in that direction with emergent story telling but that one got shot in the head....
/Cheers, Lahnmir
It is not the wrong word as such but there are different kinds of difficulty.
You could just buff the HP and damage of a mob and it would become more difficult. You can use combat mechanics that makes people use tactics to win with timing and co-operation or you could reward fast reaction speed. All those increase difficulty, as do increased mob Ai & aggro range.
And yes, a bit smarter and less predictable mobs would certainly be welcome.
There are no difficult MMOs, there never were any that were difficult.
Time investment does not mean difficult.
What is difficult - getting 2 PHDs at the same time example - in physics and molecular biology.
Or try learning a difficult language like Icelandic (for an english speaker it is difficult)
Patently untrue. EQ was difficult. Sure it could be a time sink but just 1 on 1 mob action was challenging and difficult at times. Pulling mobs was an art form in and of itself. Dungeon runs were most assuredly dangerous and difficult. Heck just getting from one place to another could be difficult.
While I'd like more of a challenge in MMO's in general the one thing that I really dislike with the more recent MMO's is the accelerated levelling and rush to "end game" and the idea that the game starts at the level cap.
The kit grind or gear treadmill starts at the level cap and that's one part of MMO's I'd be happy to see the back of. I've always preferred the journey rather than the destination. An MMO that slowed the pace down, encouraged group play but didn't make it a forced requirement and fostered community would be a good addition.
If there was an MMO that took 6 months to level I'd play it and I'd pay a sub for it too, provided it was of a reasonable standard and not some cheap POS.
There are no difficult MMOs, there never were any that were difficult.
+1
IMO, it's due to MMO developers catering to the pocketbooks of special snowflakes who have a life-altering meltdown every time something doesn't go their way in-game.
I've mostly stopped playing MMOs, with an occasional visit to Albion when I'm in the mood, which is not often. They're not difficult, they're predictable, and they're mind-numbingly boring.
I like that fact that there is a resurgence of SP old-school RPGs being released. I far prefer them to any MMO.
Learning icelandic (for a native english speaker) is diffcult no matter what. There is no easy way about it, no shortcuts or anything that will make it easy. Its going to be a bitch no matter what you do and what kind of help you get.
Maybe one needs to differ between things that really make a game more challenging and things that make a game more tedious.
Challenging: - Skilling your class correctly for best effectivity - Knowing what all the abilities of your class exactly do and when to use them - Timing and sequencing abilities correctly for best effectivity - Organizing yourself with others to use your characters for maximum efficiency - Having to figure out how to handle limited resources such as mana or potions - Working out what equipment would work best for your class - Keeping track of the environment, for example respawn timers or simply adds - Reacting to changing conditions, including running away from too different challenges - Involved quest chains that require making choices, solving problems etc - In general: things that make you think
Tedius: - Frequent slow travel - Long downtimes between battles - Sitting down for mana regeneration during battle - Endless killing of mobs for a resource (such as for crafting) - In general: repetitive or monotonous things that dont require any thinking or reflexes and offer no challenge to the mind
Of course too little tediousness is a problem too. The game should have
time to "breathe" and develop the game atmosphere for the player etc. So for example having to travel for a quarter to half hour to your next quest areas is perfectly OK if you'll spend the next four to eight hours there.
There has been some balance.
This is especially also true for challenge. Too much challenge is frustrating, too. Too little is boring.
A good example would for example be the reaction of the game to character death. Too little and people view death as nothing that needs to be avoided. Too much and people will at all cost try to avoid death and never take chances. So you want to hit the sweet middle ground when character death isnt the end of the world, but still hurts.
I think I like games taking more time to progress. But honestly that isn't difficulty. I also enjoy some games that have had difficulty in the past and present.
I would say difficulty could be measured with how you go about fights in a game. If you go into a fight and actually have to properly use traps or sleeps, and if you don't you might die I would say that is difficult. I think not being able to pull more than one enemy in an area full of enemies is difficult if you can accidentally agro them if you step in the wrong spot. I think there have been games that are difficult, but people just aren't remembering that part. They only remember mindless grinding being difficult because of how long it takes.
But most developers are doing it the wrong way. For an example - they are just adding more Health to mobs meaning that it is not more difficult - it just takes longer time. I simply hate that. I do love when you have to Think about how you move in a zone because if you don't then you are in trouble. Nowadays, the only reason I Think about how I move in a zone is because I simply don't want to spend time fighting mobs that don't have a chance to kill me anyway.
I remember I hated when questsmarks showed exactly where to go on the map when it first arrived to games. I liked to explore to be able to finish a quest. But nowadays I am annoyed as soon as a questmark is in the wrong position so I guess I have just adapted the new gaming style of getting Everything served by the game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Perhaps difficult may mean something that is meaningful to achieve. I reached lvl 60 in WoW and it was meaningless to me.
I reached lvl 90 (finally) on PoE hardcore and it was meaningful to me. (I just died at 93 though . . . kind of stopped caring about my char and thus did something dumb)
On the new expansion of PoE, I beat all 10 acts in solo self found mode in hardcore . That was meaningful to me.
I played Lineage 2 and with a loan (never bought) of 140 adena or whatever, i was able to make 750 adena. That was somewhat meaningful.
In EVE, back when i played in 2007/2008, I was making 1 billion isk per week buying stuff in my 0.0 space and having it shipped to Jita. That was somewhat meaningful.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
MMO's already give the option of going way over my interest and ability in terms of difficulty. If we're talking taking longer to level up, well that's not difficulty, that's just tedium. Unless, of course, the game play and content during the leveling process is amazing enough to not bore me to tears before I get anywhere near end-game. Which seems near-impossible these days, as it would have to be something truly special.
And if there's forced grouping, they better make a goddamn quick and easy way to get into one. I'm not sitting around for hours shouting for a group just to have them wipe once and disband 'cause they've already been grinding for hours and shit like when I played FFXI.
MMO's already give the option of going way over my interest and ability in terms of difficulty. If we're talking taking longer to level up, well that's not difficulty, that's just tedium. Unless, of course, the game play and content during the leveling process is amazing enough to not bore me to tears before I get anywhere near end-game. Which seems near-impossible these days, as it would have to be something truly special.
Even if the gameplay and content is amazing .. it is not about difficulty. It is about good design, and entertaining production.
Case in point, Dishonored 2 is a great entertaining game, and it was never difficult.
No, I like diversity. If every game is super hard then its annoying, if ever game is easy then its boring. Not every game released needs to be a hard game or easy, not every game needs to be a pve only game or pvp only game. Just make a solid game with a specific direction and stick to it.
MMO's already give the option of going way over my interest and ability in terms of difficulty. If we're talking taking longer to level up, well that's not difficulty, that's just tedium. Unless, of course, the game play and content during the leveling process is amazing enough to not bore me to tears before I get anywhere near end-game. Which seems near-impossible these days, as it would have to be something truly special.
Even if the gameplay and content is amazing .. it is not about difficulty. It is about good design, and entertaining production.
Case in point, Dishonored 2 is a great entertaining game, and it was never difficult.
Yeah, you're right. Entertainment over difficulty any day of the week. I've never actually tried the Dishonor games. Maybe they're right up my alley, and I didn't know I need them in my life.
We are talking about games here. Games are for some quick fun. If i want real challenges, i go solve work related technical problems.
The best pve games give the illusion of challenges, not real ones.
Yeah some games are for quick fun. TF2, WoT, MOBA's are all great for a quick session where you can jump in and have a laugh but not all games have to be the same.
There's nothing wrong with a game that makes you stop and think and maybe even punishes you if you get it wrong. The idea that all games should be about quick fun is too limiting. People are different and they want different things from games. Some people want to be challenged by the game content and there's nothing wrong with that.
One of the biggest problems with modern games is the lack of challenge. I spent months, literally months, playing Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. That was one brutal bastard of a game but it still stands out as one of the best games I've ever played 25 years later. They really don't make them like they used to.
Perhaps difficult may mean something that is meaningful to achieve. I reached lvl 60 in WoW and it was meaningless to me.
I reached lvl 90 (finally) on PoE hardcore and it was meaningful to me. (I just died at 93 though . . . kind of stopped caring about my char and thus did something dumb)
On the new expansion of PoE, I beat all 10 acts in solo self found mode in hardcore . That was meaningful to me.
I played Lineage 2 and with a loan (never bought) of 140 adena or whatever, i was able to make 750 adena. That was somewhat meaningful.
In EVE, back when i played in 2007/2008, I was making 1 billion isk per week buying stuff in my 0.0 space and having it shipped to Jita. That was somewhat meaningful.
Cryomatrix
I agree.
Some people want "difficult" to mean using all knowledge/brain cells in order to overcome some desperately difficult situation or that every bit of skill at their fingertips and awareness of their surroundings is required for a certain fight.
Some 95 year old Grandmother is going to find climbing Mt. Washington difficult.
But you don't need to be a whiz to do it nor does it really require any expertise other than to follow the trail. But it will be difficult. for her.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
In general - yes, a proper/appropriate difficult can add to the game.
Which is why many/most SP games give you options so that you can define what difficulty is the right fit for you, hence enhancing your gameplay.
For MMOs, (in general) they've gone the direction of having more challenging content/game modes within the game.
It's not quite the same thing as being more challenging from the get go, but it does give players who want the challenge the option.
However, the problem is that (again typically) these challenging modes/content forms are reserved to the 'end game' so getting there can be a bit of a grind for the player looking to challenge themselves.
A better solution?
Options.
I've long been a proponent of different server rule sets. PvE vs. PvP servers are the most common, but I'd also advocate for 'challenge' servers that do basic things like making death sting a bit more, perhaps enhancing enemy health and damage a bit to push players towards grouping, that kind of thing.
When I think of "difficulty" I really perceive it as a question of who is overcoming the obstacles of the game. Is it me or my character? I do love RPG's and if I'm playing something like Pillars of Eternity or Darkest Dungeon, it's mostly about building characters that can make it through the encounters. Still fun, but it's a different type of fun. There's a lot of time-invested and broad strategic thinking.
Then there's the "I did this" type of difficulty which can be more readily found in more action oriented games like Dark Souls, where incremental improvements in your character don't really carry you through the content. It's up to you, the player, to overcome everything. You can beat the Soulsborne games without leveling, some people can beat them with a DDR dance pad or guitar hero guitar or whatever, but at the end of it all, it's because they themselves gained the skill to do so.
Both can be fun and both are valid forms of difficulty, but it comes down to game design and how they're implemented. Some devs just go nuts on 'time-investment' which turns many people off, but some people really like. Some devs think you should have superhuman reflexes to play at the highest levels and that turns off many people, but some people really like it.
The fun part exists in the space between in how that difficulty is balanced with everything else. Is it fun to gain a level every hour? How about 30 hours? 6 months? 1 year? Surely 1 year per level would be difficult for nearly everyone to stomach, but if levels didn't function in the same way they do in other games and the game was built around other concepts, it might be a plausible idea. There's a lot of variables to consider when looking at difficulty, and I'd guess that most of us enjoy different forms of difficulty at different times.
I think a sign of a good MMO is that you can play how you like to play or how you feel like playing in the moment. I like being challenged so I can feel accomplished, but if I log into a game just to wander around, enjoy the scenery, build something, etc, then I'm gonna be pissed if I'm constantly getting attacked by boss-level monsters. I think ESO tried to conquer this issue by having areas and bosses that you could seek out that were more difficult.
1. Difficulty means slow progression. Yes, I like. 2. Difficulty means reliance on others. Yes, I like. Mostly anyway. 3. Difficulty means groups rather than solo. Yes, I like. Mostly anyway. 4. Difficulty means high risk of character death. Yes, I like. 5. Difficulty means harsh death penalty. Yes, I like. 6. Difficulty means fast paced twitchy combat. No, I don't like. 7. Difficulty means substantial time investment. Yes, I like. 8. Difficulty means mandatory PvP. No, I don't like. 9. Difficulty means no maps. No, I don't like. 10. Difficulty means sloooooow travel. Ambivalent about this one. 11. Difficulty means puzzles and mysteries to solve. Yes, I like. 12. Difficulty means your player reputation is important. Yes, I like. 13. Difficulty means the only fun is max level raiding. No, I don't like. 14. Difficulty means quests are challenging. Yes, I like. 15. Difficulty means loot takes time and effort to acquire, where you don't win 5 purples a night. Yes, I like.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Difficulty makes me feel proud of the accomplishment. Whatever weird complex and plentiful parameters that go into it, then so be it.
I may be proud because I was clever (PvP and dueling in diablo 2 hc) I may be proud because I stuck with a strategy and watched my power grow (playing market) I may be proud because I was one of the better tanks on the server (never happened) I may be proud because I reached lvl 90+ on hardcore in PoE (yay, after like so many deaths) I may be proud because I beat back numerous invasions in Civ 5 (it happened)
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
There are no difficult MMOs, there never were any that were difficult.
Time investment does not mean difficult.
What is difficult - getting 2 PHDs at the same time example - in physics and molecular biology.
Or try learning a difficult language like Icelandic (for an english speaker it is difficult)
Patently untrue. EQ was difficult. Sure it could be a time sink but just 1 on 1 mob action was challenging and difficult at times. Pulling mobs was an art form in and of itself. Dungeon runs were most assuredly dangerous and difficult. Heck just getting from one place to another could be difficult.
It all could be made into a cakewalk with levels, gear, experience and party/group play.
I played EQ1 for 7 years - the difference in same content solo noob undergeared vs experienced geared group its night and day.
Dungeons runs were 100% safe and easy for experienced groups, pulling mobs was again cake for those who have been doing it for years. etc...
The game was not hard, it was just punishing for undergeared noobs, experienced players were playing in on auto-pilot
@DMKano Nah you are wrong. You just got so good at the game that it now appear easy to you, but it was still difficult to learn and master at first. Either that or you got carried by superior players so you didn't have to learn the hard way.
Practicing and failing and eventually learning how to do stuff IS difficulty even if you got good at it eventually. Keeping focused for long sessions is difficulty, timing spells is difficulty, anything that require decision making and can fail if you decide poorly is difficulty. That time investment argument you keep repeating is just wrong. Eq was difficult, wow was difficult in some ways and so are other mmos; there is no correct formula, if players regularly fail something in a game then it is difficult, and that includes failing at long term commitment as much as failing a twitch skill combo.
Comments
It looked like EQNext was going in that direction with emergent story telling but that one got shot in the head....
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You could just buff the HP and damage of a mob and it would become more difficult. You can use combat mechanics that makes people use tactics to win with timing and co-operation or you could reward fast reaction speed. All those increase difficulty, as do increased mob Ai & aggro range.
And yes, a bit smarter and less predictable mobs would certainly be welcome.
The kit grind or gear treadmill starts at the level cap and that's one part of MMO's I'd be happy to see the back of. I've always preferred the journey rather than the destination. An MMO that slowed the pace down, encouraged group play but didn't make it a forced requirement and fostered community would be a good addition.
If there was an MMO that took 6 months to level I'd play it and I'd pay a sub for it too, provided it was of a reasonable standard and not some cheap POS.
IMO, it's due to MMO developers catering to the pocketbooks of special snowflakes who have a life-altering meltdown every time something doesn't go their way in-game.
I've mostly stopped playing MMOs, with an occasional visit to Albion when I'm in the mood, which is not often. They're not difficult, they're predictable, and they're mind-numbingly boring.
I like that fact that there is a resurgence of SP old-school RPGs being released. I far prefer them to any MMO.
~~ postlarval ~~
Icelandic....pfft. Child's play.
Try Welsh.
~~ postlarval ~~
Challenging:
- Skilling your class correctly for best effectivity
- Knowing what all the abilities of your class exactly do and when to use them
- Timing and sequencing abilities correctly for best effectivity
- Organizing yourself with others to use your characters for maximum efficiency
- Having to figure out how to handle limited resources such as mana or potions
- Working out what equipment would work best for your class
- Keeping track of the environment, for example respawn timers or simply adds
- Reacting to changing conditions, including running away from too different challenges
- Involved quest chains that require making choices, solving problems etc
- In general: things that make you think
Tedius:
- Frequent slow travel
- Long downtimes between battles
- Sitting down for mana regeneration during battle
- Endless killing of mobs for a resource (such as for crafting)
- In general: repetitive or monotonous things that dont require any thinking or reflexes and offer no challenge to the mind
Of course too little tediousness is a problem too. The game should have time to "breathe" and develop the game atmosphere for the player etc. So for example having to travel for a quarter to half hour to your next quest areas is perfectly OK if you'll spend the next four to eight hours there.
There has been some balance.
This is especially also true for challenge. Too much challenge is frustrating, too. Too little is boring.
A good example would for example be the reaction of the game to character death. Too little and people view death as nothing that needs to be avoided. Too much and people will at all cost try to avoid death and never take chances. So you want to hit the sweet middle ground when character death isnt the end of the world, but still hurts.
I would say difficulty could be measured with how you go about fights in a game. If you go into a fight and actually have to properly use traps or sleeps, and if you don't you might die I would say that is difficult. I think not being able to pull more than one enemy in an area full of enemies is difficult if you can accidentally agro them if you step in the wrong spot. I think there have been games that are difficult, but people just aren't remembering that part. They only remember mindless grinding being difficult because of how long it takes.
But most developers are doing it the wrong way. For an example - they are just adding more Health to mobs meaning that it is not more difficult - it just takes longer time. I simply hate that. I do love when you have to Think about how you move in a zone because if you don't then you are in trouble. Nowadays, the only reason I Think about how I move in a zone is because I simply don't want to spend time fighting mobs that don't have a chance to kill me anyway.
I remember I hated when questsmarks showed exactly where to go on the map when it first arrived to games. I liked to explore to be able to finish a quest. But nowadays I am annoyed as soon as a questmark is in the wrong position so I guess I have just adapted the new gaming style of getting Everything served by the game.
The best pve games give the illusion of challenges, not real ones.
I have said that for years. Real world challenges > stupid video game challenges.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I reached lvl 90 (finally) on PoE hardcore and it was meaningful to me. (I just died at 93 though . . . kind of stopped caring about my char and thus did something dumb)
On the new expansion of PoE, I beat all 10 acts in solo self found mode in hardcore
I played Lineage 2 and with a loan (never bought) of 140 adena or whatever, i was able to make 750 adena. That was somewhat meaningful.
In EVE, back when i played in 2007/2008, I was making 1 billion isk per week buying stuff in my 0.0 space and having it shipped to Jita. That was somewhat meaningful.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
And if there's forced grouping, they better make a goddamn quick and easy way to get into one. I'm not sitting around for hours shouting for a group just to have them wipe once and disband 'cause they've already been grinding for hours and shit like when I played FFXI.
Case in point, Dishonored 2 is a great entertaining game, and it was never difficult.
There's nothing wrong with a game that makes you stop and think and maybe even punishes you if you get it wrong. The idea that all games should be about quick fun is too limiting. People are different and they want different things from games. Some people want to be challenged by the game content and there's nothing wrong with that.
One of the biggest problems with modern games is the lack of challenge. I spent months, literally months, playing Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss. That was one brutal bastard of a game but it still stands out as one of the best games I've ever played 25 years later. They really don't make them like they used to.
Some people want "difficult" to mean using all knowledge/brain cells in order to overcome some desperately difficult situation or that every bit of skill at their fingertips and awareness of their surroundings is required for a certain fight.
Some 95 year old Grandmother is going to find climbing Mt. Washington difficult.
But you don't need to be a whiz to do it nor does it really require any expertise other than to follow the trail. But it will be difficult. for her.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Which is why many/most SP games give you options so that you can define what difficulty is the right fit for you, hence enhancing your gameplay.
For MMOs, (in general) they've gone the direction of having more challenging content/game modes within the game.
It's not quite the same thing as being more challenging from the get go, but it does give players who want the challenge the option.
However, the problem is that (again typically) these challenging modes/content forms are reserved to the 'end game' so getting there can be a bit of a grind for the player looking to challenge themselves.
A better solution?
Options.
I've long been a proponent of different server rule sets. PvE vs. PvP servers are the most common, but I'd also advocate for 'challenge' servers that do basic things like making death sting a bit more, perhaps enhancing enemy health and damage a bit to push players towards grouping, that kind of thing.
I think they would be quite popular.
Then there's the "I did this" type of difficulty which can be more readily found in more action oriented games like Dark Souls, where incremental improvements in your character don't really carry you through the content. It's up to you, the player, to overcome everything. You can beat the Soulsborne games without leveling, some people can beat them with a DDR dance pad or guitar hero guitar or whatever, but at the end of it all, it's because they themselves gained the skill to do so.
Both can be fun and both are valid forms of difficulty, but it comes down to game design and how they're implemented. Some devs just go nuts on 'time-investment' which turns many people off, but some people really like. Some devs think you should have superhuman reflexes to play at the highest levels and that turns off many people, but some people really like it.
The fun part exists in the space between in how that difficulty is balanced with everything else. Is it fun to gain a level every hour? How about 30 hours? 6 months? 1 year? Surely 1 year per level would be difficult for nearly everyone to stomach, but if levels didn't function in the same way they do in other games and the game was built around other concepts, it might be a plausible idea. There's a lot of variables to consider when looking at difficulty, and I'd guess that most of us enjoy different forms of difficulty at different times.
IF:
1. Difficulty means slow progression. Yes, I like.
2. Difficulty means reliance on others. Yes, I like. Mostly anyway.
3. Difficulty means groups rather than solo. Yes, I like. Mostly anyway.
4. Difficulty means high risk of character death. Yes, I like.
5. Difficulty means harsh death penalty. Yes, I like.
6. Difficulty means fast paced twitchy combat. No, I don't like.
7. Difficulty means substantial time investment. Yes, I like.
8. Difficulty means mandatory PvP. No, I don't like.
9. Difficulty means no maps. No, I don't like.
10. Difficulty means sloooooow travel. Ambivalent about this one.
11. Difficulty means puzzles and mysteries to solve. Yes, I like.
12. Difficulty means your player reputation is important. Yes, I like.
13. Difficulty means the only fun is max level raiding. No, I don't like.
14. Difficulty means quests are challenging. Yes, I like.
15. Difficulty means loot takes time and effort to acquire, where you don't win 5 purples a night. Yes, I like.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Difficulty makes me feel proud of the accomplishment. Whatever weird complex and plentiful parameters that go into it, then so be it.
I may be proud because I was clever (PvP and dueling in diablo 2 hc)
I may be proud because I stuck with a strategy and watched my power grow (playing market)
I may be proud because I was one of the better tanks on the server (never happened)
I may be proud because I reached lvl 90+ on hardcore in PoE (yay, after like so many deaths)
I may be proud because I beat back numerous invasions in Civ 5 (it happened)
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Practicing and failing and eventually learning how to do stuff IS difficulty even if you got good at it eventually. Keeping focused for long sessions is difficulty, timing spells is difficulty, anything that require decision making and can fail if you decide poorly is difficulty. That time investment argument you keep repeating is just wrong. Eq was difficult, wow was difficult in some ways and so are other mmos; there is no correct formula, if players regularly fail something in a game then it is difficult, and that includes failing at long term commitment as much as failing a twitch skill combo.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0