So what is old school MMO really?

2

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  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastMember UncommonPosts: 2,092
    What made it fun was server pride and you literally knew everyone that was on in your time zone and any gear upgrade you got was meaningful. Bring that back. Things I don't miss are corpse runs and grinding a week to get a level.
    Viper482

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,684
    1. Community. Not world chat, not just your guild....but a virtual neighborhood in which it seemed everyone knew each other. If you were a troll (otherwise known at the time as an arse) you got a reputation for it. Everything below this #1 on the list had a role in making this #1. Literally just about everything that made the old school MMOs what they were revolved around community. 

    2. Crafting reliance. Everyone needed a crafter, and every craft had to rely on other crafts. If you were making leather armor, you would need to buy buckles from a blacksmith, or cloth from a tailor. After that you would need an enchanter to give it stats. And becoming a top tier crafting took so much time it was near impossible for you to have it all yourself via alts. This helped to make #1 important and created living, thriving virtual economies.

    3. Server/Realm Pride. This is mainly a Daoc reference but applies to others as well. There were no such thing as server transfers. If you wanted to change servers you had to reroll on that server. GW2 server WvW is a joke because everyone just transfers to the better servers instead of finding ways to get better. And for PvP you could not simply logout of your losing side Alliance in order to login to your winning side horde toon. Once you chose a side you either played it or rerolled it on another server. This also had a place in the creation and importance of #1.

    4. Group content. You actually had to make friends, which resulted in less jerks in the community. The bad people would tend to have to stay among themselves because they were shunned. See #1 once again. You could solo, but grouping in most MMOs gave bonus experience, actually promoting socializing with others outside of a world chat room....imagine that. #community.

    5. Skills unique to certain classes or races that were highly desired by others. Need rez at loc XXXX" "LF SOW!" (EQ Spirit of the Wolf buff gave you super speed for long runs...no fast travel) "LF Gate to (insert city here)", need corpse run (another EQ thing). Running through newbie land tossing high level buffs on the low levels and making their day, because they actually worked as high level buffs still. Once again....this promoted #1. Some would sell their buff services, others would be happy to get tips for them. But overall, it helped form a sense of community. 

    This are the top 5 for me, all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    ScorchienSedrynTyrosMadFrenchieCarpeOmniaborghive49Hawkaya399
  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,684
    DMKano said:
    It doesnt matter if they were better, worse or same.

    The only thing that matters is if enough players will play and be willing to spend money on it to make the games sustainable.

    IMO the masses have turned away from old school longterm - will some play Pantheon for a few months, sure.

    Will masses stick around for years? Not a chance.

    Hopefully enough remain to make the game financially viable.

    There were no "masses" in old school MMO's. They were and still are a niche genre. The masses started actually playing MMOs thanks to WoW, as I am sure we all know. Vanilla WoW still had some old school flavor to it, but was Disney compared to EQ at the time, which is why it attracted more people. WoW brought in the masses, WoW clones trying to capitalize on its success took the genre in a new direction. Fans of these MMOs would never have enjoyed an early type MMO such as EQ....which is probably why they were not playing it. 
    SedrynTyrosSovrath
  • RottsteinRottstein Coal Township, PAMember UncommonPosts: 52
    Maurgrim said:
    Daranar said:
    100% Disagree.  Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999.  It's far more than the community.   It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something.  Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice.  No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why?  Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage.   I couldn't disagree more with your post.

    Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why?   I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.
    Working hard?, by camping pointless trash mobs for weeks?
    Or sitting hours on end for a dungeon because you needed a healer?
    What is working hard?, they were not hard to kill, there were not anything hard or challenging of any sort, they were time consuming nothing else.

    You call that a challenge?
    I call that bad mechanic.
    I'm at a loss here. Are you saying that older MMO's weren't more challenging?  They definitely were. 

    In old school MMO's you fought one mob and hoped that you didn't get an add.  Nowadays MMO's you try to kill as many at one time as possible,  "another group of mobs coming while I kill these 12?  That's fine I can handle 4 more!"

    While waiting for a healer or CC might not be fun, it was because the world required it.  It wasn't face-roll easy that any "melee" class could tank it, you needed to specialize being a tank, or a healer, or a CC.  There was not today's "anybody can be everything" games which when the poop hits the fan your dps can just switch to healing.

    SteelhelmViper482SedrynTyros
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,522
    edited October 15
    Well the question in the title was "What are old school MMOs", but in the OP's post it is "Why were they better".

    You are asking these questions as if there are posters on here that think we can remake old MMOs with exactly the same mechanics but updated graphics and they will be in heaven and the game will be an incredible success.

    Can you find one of these posters for us? Can you find someone on here who thinks old school is the answer to every problem MMOs have today?

    I like many others think some of today's MMO problems come from them being too divergent from old MMO principles. That does not mean we want everything back just the way it was, a hybrid of old and new school would be the starting point.
    Post edited by Scot on

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Akulas said:
    What made it fun was server pride and you literally knew everyone that was on in your time zone and any gear upgrade you got was meaningful. Bring that back. Things I don't miss are corpse runs and grinding a week to get a level.

    Old school games were horrible. Corpse runs. Slow leveling. Camping. Loot drama. I am glad they are all gone. 


    KyleranLegotheHuttborghive49
  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLMember RarePosts: 1,684
    edited October 16
    Rottstein said:
    Maurgrim said:
    Daranar said:
    100% Disagree.  Which is why I have given up on modern MMOs until Pantheon comes out and have started Project 1999.  It's far more than the community.   It actually was nice working hard for an epic weapon because when you had it, it meant something.  Even working hard for weapons in your 20s was nice.  No, modern minded players don't want to sit for days or weeks earning a weapon, why?  Because the very next day they will be 20 levels higher and that weapon will be garbage.   I couldn't disagree more with your post.

    Plus even if you do accept the fact that the community was better, I have to ask why?   I'd argue the community was better because it forced you to work cooperatively with strangers which built community instead of everyone being able to solo and only really needing to 'use' people at certain times.
    Working hard?, by camping pointless trash mobs for weeks?
    Or sitting hours on end for a dungeon because you needed a healer?
    What is working hard?, they were not hard to kill, there were not anything hard or challenging of any sort, they were time consuming nothing else.

    You call that a challenge?
    I call that bad mechanic.
    I'm at a loss here. Are you saying that older MMO's weren't more challenging?  They definitely were. 

    In old school MMO's you fought one mob and hoped that you didn't get an add.  Nowadays MMO's you try to kill as many at one time as possible,  "another group of mobs coming while I kill these 12?  That's fine I can handle 4 more!"

    While waiting for a healer or CC might not be fun, it was because the world required it.  It wasn't face-roll easy that any "melee" class could tank it, you needed to specialize being a tank, or a healer, or a CC.  There was not today's "anybody can be everything" games which when the poop hits the fan your dps can just switch to healing.

    Agreed. Remember those bad pulls? Or roaming adds? Just two extra mobs could spell death for your group if you did not have a good healer or CC...even then no guarantees depending on how many you got. Regular mob grinding was a challenge. 
    Post edited by Viper482 on
    Kyleran
  • CarpeOmniaCarpeOmnia Member CommonPosts: 1
    Viper482 said:
     all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.
    Scot
  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,522
    Viper482 said:
     all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.

    I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
    Mendel

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  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,118
    Old School MMORPG's were better because of 4 reasons...

    1. Community - The genre pre-wow was filled with specific RPG gamers who wanted to explore a vast open world with other people. MMORPG's created two spectrums. A social experience with other players around the country/world and an open explorable 3d world. I would say that the community portion suffered.

    2. Immersion - I felt that I have more immersive feelings about playing Everquest than any other MMORPG since. Perhaps some of it was simply based off it was my first MMORPG experience. I think what made old school mmo's immersive wasn't their polished graphics, but the little things. Ambient wilderness music, no icons above NPC's heads guiding you, no quest hubs.

    3. Challenge - I think this is something that has simmered down quite extensively during most assets of gameplay to cater to the super casual mmo player. I remember when the wilderness of zones were a dangerous place and if you went the wrong way, you died. 

    4. Variety - I think old school mmo's provided more variety to various types of gameplay elements and things you can do in game. It made the gameplay feel substantial because it felt like there was a lot to do. Of course this reason is purely subjective because you can still argue today that mmo's provides variety of content. I guess I'd prefer the Everquest approach to variety.
    Steelhelm
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,668
    edited October 16
    Scot said:
    Viper482 said:
     all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.

    I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
    Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.

    True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?   ;)

    My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.

    B)
    Post edited by Kyleran on
    ConstantineMerusVelifax

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,279
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Viper482 said:
     all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.

    I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
    Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.

    True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?   ;)

    My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.

    B)
    If you die to honor your memory I'll name my toons Kinky Ky, may you rest in peace. 
    Kyleran
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember RarePosts: 1,959
    There is something (other than nostalgia) behind the desire for old school games. However, most people do not understand what it is, or why it is missing in modern games. The key element that is missing is community (which some people see), but people do not understand why.

    Successful older games had a common design flaw, in addition to their unique set of issues. This common flaw was downtime. When the game physically forced users to take a break (while being unable to leave the game due to the danger level), they used that time time to interact with each other. This social engagement allowed them to work together to overcome the games challenges (as well as its unique flaws). This sense of community was built on a foundation of actually overcoming challenges.

    Todays games are less flawed (both technically and in game environment), and the industry itself has evolved. There is no longer a need/desire for gamers to spend many long hard hours of play to get achievable results. There is also no longer the 'dead' time where players sit and work out how they have to work with/around the game to get the results. There is also an on line infrastructure that allows for asynchronous communication of these issues, without the need for a community.

    Basically, old school games sucked. People formed communities to get past this, because there were no better alternatives. Todays games are not as bad, and people would rather enjoy the games, than spend their time/effort to try to make them work.
    borghive49Hawkaya399
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAMember UncommonPosts: 1,032
    I have an idea:

    Make a game with different types of servers. 

    Modern server = has all the amenities
    Old server = like the old timers want (tougher mobs, corpse run, no fast travel, etc) 

    Just have different server types, don't know why it is so difficult to do. Should be just a bunch of flags that can be turned on or off. 

    Every time you die, you get two options, instant corpse return or corpse run (on one server the other option is grayed out and on the other server, the other option is greyed out) . 

    Cryomatrix
    4507
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,441
    me ?
    Old school = no instances , no "you are hero" quests , true massive multiplayer . (aka stay true to what MMORPG mean)
    WOW generation = instances , singleplayer RPG disguise as MMORPG (aka fake products with MMORPG label)

    Steelhelm
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomeMember UncommonPosts: 3,842
    Old school MMO is mostly a mix of :

    1. Ridiculous Time Sinks
    2. Nostalgia
    3. Outdated Game Design

    Not that I hate them all. I still miss Star Wars Galaxies and I also have fond memories about Anarchy Online. But at the same time I loathe oldschool WoW and more crap from that era.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSMember UncommonPosts: 1,441
    Old school MMO is mostly a mix of :

    1. Ridiculous Time Sinks
    2. Nostalgia
    3. Outdated Game Design

    Not that I hate them all. I still miss Star Wars Galaxies and I also have fond memories about Anarchy Online. But at the same time I loathe oldschool WoW and more crap from that era.
    I think it just O.L.D MMO , not Old School MMO .
  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABMember RarePosts: 2,593
    edited October 17
    Some of the games were quite good. Saying they sucked by judging with today's standards is not fair.

    Old school concept is very simple: It is an mmorpg created for immersion and inherits the values of the origins of the genre.

    If you do no know the origins of the genre ... that is where your confusion begins. 

    Most of you are defining the games by their mechanics and that is completely wrong. They tried to create worlds and worlds are defined by limitations, the very physics with defines them. Old school mmorpgs can be build in many different ways as we will see in the newer ones in development. Breaking the most basic concept of immersion however is what they attempt not to do.
    Post edited by Tamanous on

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  • ScotScot UKMember RarePosts: 6,522
    Kyleran said:
    Scot said:
    Viper482 said:
     all branching to one thing.....community. To me that is what todays MMOs are missing. You can have it on a smaller scale with the right guild, but it just will never be the same as long as the majority of MMO mechanics cater to the solo player.  


    I agree and I would like to hope Pantheon and Camelot Unchained bring a sense of the old school community back, whenever they open.

    I would hope the time between them opening is going to be a couple of years, otherwise once again decent MMO's will split the player base and they will not be the success they deserve to be.
    Nonsense, besides the fact one is very PVP focused vs the other on PVE, (which many here will tell you are mutually exclusive audiences) everyone is always telling me gamers regularly play more than one title at a time.

    True, for me and the 5 other people who still play one, and only one game until we're finished it could be an issue, but for everyone else what's the problem?   ;)

    My greater concern is will I die or lose my faculties before either game launches.

    B)

    You are quite right the baulk of players now play more than one MMO at a time, along with the two or more solo games they are playing. The difference in gameplay means it is not such an issue, I did not realise that was the case as I don't follow games until they actually come out.

    Hopefully you have not used up too many of your nine lives and will be with us for their launch. :)
    Kyleran

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • Dead_GuyDead_Guy Needles, AZMember UncommonPosts: 42
    Looks like someone played one old MMO and decided that 'old school' MMO design was bad.

    All MMOs have issues and whether or not you like any particular part of an game is going to boil down to personal preference. From what I can gather about your post though, you seem like nothing more than an impatient child. Modern MMOs are geared towards kids that like action combat and have no desire to do anything other than 'win'.

    In other words; RPGs are not for you.



    Velifax
  • FinvegaFinvega Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Project Gorgon, new old school.
  • norman728norman728 Philadelphia, PAMember UncommonPosts: 145
    Going by what played  I in the past. UO SHADOWBANE,  Alot of it was the mystery of it all truly not knowing what lies beyond that hill or dungeon.  the danger of a corpse run when your body is surrounded by the mob that killed you(if you didn't fall)  getting close enough to respawn you gear and book it so you don't die again.  collecting death shrouds in UO after dying for a few reagents. Like a lot said finding a good guild to run with.  the effort of a dungeon run was worth it
  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONMember UncommonPosts: 1,982
    We are all guilty of lazy MMO in the modern era though. We didn't have 14 youtube videos showing us how to open every chest back during 'old school' MMOs but we don't need to use them now. We still do.
  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLMember RarePosts: 2,958
    Long ago in college I read about a psychology experiment. Three test groups were given an opportunity to join a club. What they had to do to gain club membership ranged from easy, medium, to hard. The people who had to do hard things to join their club were overwhelmingly the most supportive of the value of that club (and wanted to keep meeting even after the experiment was over). 

    And so it is with mmorpgs. Those of us who played these games when they had very few convenience features and many additional challenges will always feel our "club" is special.

    That said, it's not just that. The games were different in the ways people claim. The world felt more like a world because you couldn't just zip around everywhere. There was a more palpable sense of danger and of the consequence of error or bad luck. Your player reputation mattered. It took much longer to do most things which increased the value and sense of accomplishment from those things. Player cooperation and co-dependency was truly essential. 
    CryomatrixKyleran

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAMember RarePosts: 27,395
    Dead_Guy said:
     From what I can gather about your post though, you seem like nothing more than an impatient child. 




    wow wow wow .. adults cannot be impatient? I bet there are millions of impatient adults wanting to see the new Thor movies now.

    And if i have any patience .. that is reserve for my wife, kids, and probably work. I don't see why i need to be patient for my entertainment. If a game is not fun for the first 15 min, there is always another one.

    And there are tons of RPGs built for impatient people. You never play Diablo? No need to talk or "be in a community". Just click a button and you kill stuff. 
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