I am glad the word "improved" was used. I do not see a LOT has to change but improvement for certain,which is why i laugh when i see review scores over 8,all of these games have massive room for improvement,they are NOT and never will be an 8.
I also need to see/hear a good plausible reason for changing an idea and it needs to make plausible sense and not just because you didn't like that certain idea in another game. A perfect example is linear questing.I don't mind if there is a design section for players to run quests all the time,however i do not want to see ANY class xp associated with them.
So yes that example is an example of what to "improve" in a certain design.Another would be those ugly yellow markers a lot of devs like to put over npc heads,is an immersion breaker,should not exist in games.Players should NEVER be vee lining for a yellow marker,we are suppose to be playing like we live in a world not like we are playing connect the dots with computer code.
Mob Ai .."improved",aggro systems improved,maps improved,character customization..improved,it is endless,all of these games should be improved over the years,instead i am seeing massive worlds turned into Diablo/Baldur's gate type games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I am glad the word "improved" was used. I do not see a LOT has to change but improvement for certain,which is why i laugh when i see review scores over 8,all of these games have massive room for improvement,they are NOT and never will be an 8.
I also need to see/hear a good plausible reason for changing an idea and it needs to make plausible sense and not just because you didn't like that certain idea in another game. A perfect example is linear questing.I don't mind if there is a design section for players to run quests all the time,however i do not want to see ANY class xp associated with them.
So yes that example is an example of what to "improve" in a certain design.Another would be those ugly yellow markers a lot of devs like to put over npc heads,is an immersion breaker,should not exist in games.Players should NEVER be vee lining for a yellow marker,we are suppose to be playing like we live in a world not like we are playing connect the dots with computer code.
Mob Ai .."improved",aggro systems improved,maps improved,character customization..improved,it is endless,all of these games should be improved over the years,instead i am seeing massive worlds turned into Diablo/Baldur's gate type games.
There have been some improvements for questing, there certainly are a lot of new elements in quests now compared to when I killed rats in a moat in M59. The problem is that they still use plenty of the old and tired quests and make the whole leveling part of the game just about running zillions of quests.
Quests were originally a simple way to point you to certain content and to teach you new mechanics but Everquest kinda stopped that and made it one of the main gamemechanics. And the thing is that a large well written and challenging quest is fun. What isn't fun is grinding quests.
Dynamic events is also an improvement on quests but just like quests there are good DEs and bad ones. DEs can be very fun if used the right way but rather frustrating if you use it like in GW2: HoT.
But yes, some things have seen little or no improvement. The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever. Character customization is a mixed thing, your character looks a lot more unique but generally are your viable options far more limited today then in earlier games.
Making something simpler and more streamlined can be an improvement but it can also be just dumbing down things for no good reason.
A good MMO should be like chess, easy to learn but hard to master.
Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.
What problems ?
- Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ? - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ? - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ? - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ? - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ? - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ? - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ? - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ? - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ?
****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ******
I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
Everyone stopped caring about anything except the speed at which they achieved that next level or got that next piece of gear. This is something that's been prevalent in MMOs as long as I've been playing them.
As much as people dress it up nice and talk about "Hero's Journeys" on the forums you meet so many people in-game that make fun of people for being lower level, or having lower gearscore, and use the strength of their in-game character as a measure of their worth.
Those people don't care about making friends, those people don't care about being immersed in a storyline, and those people don't care about exploring the world. So how did developers respond? They got rid of all those things because people didn't care about them.
The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
This is not entirely true. Often the mobs would go in a strange path due to bad pathing and often they would bring friends with if there were a lot of mobs in the same area. It was unintended, but depending on the game it was a necessity to be able to solo. Fighting and defeating your enemy in a developer intended way is usually not that challenging in a solo encounter. Some of the most enjoyable things about those old games were being able to find ways to do things like that were not intended. Kiting would be one thing in EQ. Paladin's and Druid's ability to outlast even elite mobs in Vanilla WoW was another. I also recall being able to solo stealth dungeons in both EQ and WoW if the class was high enough above the intended level, had stealth, and was skilled.
The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
Not exactly true. There was a time (UO, AC1, EQ1) when mobs would only run to you in a straight line, and therefore also could be exploited with the terrain easily. Pathing has improved BIG TIME since then.
Pathing is better yes, but the mobs are more predictable and you have less you need to focus on now then in EQ. Let's call it a draw.
Well, instead of running straight to you, mobs nowadays (at least in WoW, GW2, BDO, ESO and LOTRO) will flee to get help, and you can quickly end with a lot more on you that you can deal with in difficult areas. And I'm talking right now, in those games, today. Happened to me in a public dungeon in ESO no later than today. One caster felt a bit too vulnerable under my arrow barrage, and he ran away around the corner and came back with 5 more of his friends. Sorry, I can't call it a draw compared to the utterly dumb mobs that ran only in a straight line to you in UO, AC1 and EQ1. Granted, they aren't genius level intelligences today, but it's still much, much better than it ever was.
.
I never played the three titles you mentioned, but in 2002 DAOC had mobs which did exactly as you describe, along with bringing friends (BAF) based on party size.
It also had roaming mobs and aggro through walls and floors which could cause some unfortunate and inexplicable wipes.
Often players would attribute the unpredictability to bugs, perhaps so but the result was (and still is on the free shard) far more challenge and losses than is seen in most games today.
In your archery example above, did the 5 adds wipe you? In DAOC they definitely would have especially as an archer, only Necros , BoneDancers and Chanters really had any chance in that circumstance, everyone either fled to zone or entrance or until aggro dropped.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Old mmos had many problems, and most of it can/could be solved without messing with their integrety. Some of those were adressed in newer mmos, but problem solving old mmos problem was not what really got us to where we are today. The player base grew from a few million mmo enthusiasts to a few hundred million gamers who brought in a somewhat different taste; of course mmos had to change. We still have those few million mmo geeks (not the same people, just the same taste) and no one makes mmos for them (I am deliberately disregarding upcomming indie projects untill I see the results). The rest of the player base are much higher in numbers so naturally a company want to target this segment for maximum profit, and that results in the mmos we get now..though this large player base is also fragmented and as different mmos move further out of traditional mmo genre, these players divide - That is why the wow numbers can not be replicated again even with a generic game as good as wow.
I can't back this up, but from what I heard many people from the movie industry got jobs in the mmo industry, and with them came narrative and story driven mmos were the result. Whatever is the reason that story driven mmos came to be the standard way to make mmos, the story driven trend plays a huge role in old mmo problems not getting improved on..simply because those are not very relevant in story driven mmos.
Starting with Scarlet Monastery, Vanilla WoW dungeons were extremely tactical.
Often players understood their roll in tank healer and dps, but very little on the tactical side of things, like bringing casters around the corner or into another room. Moving slow and plotting out the next move is faster than rushing.
Being a game from 2004 it was amazing how mobs could suck a group into a bad experience.
Dungeon....tactical?is it confusing navigating tight dungeon corridors wading through trash mobs to get to a boss?Does it even make sense,why is that Boss living at the end of a Dungeon?Forcing players into instances is not and never will be good game design,it is simply for rinse and repeat purposes,NOT for realistic game play or immersion,just for attaining loot.
Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.
Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.
I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Dungeon....tactical?is it confusing navigating tight dungeon corridors wading through trash mobs to get to a boss?Does it even make sense,why is that Boss living at the end of a Dungeon?Forcing players into instances is not and never will be good game design,it is simply for rinse and repeat purposes,NOT for realistic game play or immersion,just for attaining loot.
Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.
Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.
I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
Well, the classical reason is probably based on ancient egyptian tombes. You buried your Farao with treasures and they did put in traps as well. If they could have put in undeads to guard it they would have with a nasty one in the final chamber.
Another inspiration is probably the tunnel system of Cu Chi in Vietnam, it was in clear memory when D&D came out and it also had plenty of traps as well as guards,
But early RPG dungeons did have a far higher focus on traps and less on mobs, the players had to spend a lot of time outwitting fiendish traps. That type of gameplay does not translate that good to MMOs and already had problems in D&D because those trap dungeons needs a certainly mentality from your players to be fun so we also got the classic orc and goblin cavern systems to clear for players who wanted more action.
A well made massive dungeon is still fun in my book but the shorter ones just made to fight a hard boss after a bunch of trash mobs gets boring after a while.
Dungeon....tactical?is it confusing navigating tight dungeon corridors wading through trash mobs to get to a boss?Does it even make sense,why is that Boss living at the end of a Dungeon?Forcing players into instances is not and never will be good game design,it is simply for rinse and repeat purposes,NOT for realistic game play or immersion,just for attaining loot.
Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.
Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.
I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
Well, the classical reason is probably based on ancient egyptian tombes. You buried your Farao with treasures and they did put in traps as well. If they could have put in undeads to guard it they would have with a nasty one in the final chamber.
Another inspiration is probably the tunnel system of Cu Chi in Vietnam, it was in clear memory when D&D came out and it also had plenty of traps as well as guards,
But early RPG dungeons did have a far higher focus on traps and less on mobs, the players had to spend a lot of time outwitting fiendish traps. That type of gameplay does not translate that good to MMOs and already had problems in D&D because those trap dungeons needs a certainly mentality from your players to be fun so we also got the classic orc and goblin cavern systems to clear for players who wanted more action.
A well made massive dungeon is still fun in my book but the shorter ones just made to fight a hard boss after a bunch of trash mobs gets boring after a while.
Don't forget the curses (in real life ancient tombs).
Personally, I'm done with the traditional designs in games. I want to see an underworld setting that's full of interconnected tombs, ruins, and underworlds, connected by tunnels and caverns and an entire underworld ecosystem. Not for "everything dungeon", but for a lot of it. Multiple biospheres. Some could be buried city ruins, cursed with some evil force. Others could be multiple caverns connected with tunnels in the rock. Some could be combinations. And evil underground races eagerly digging into them all from deep below.
I'm tired of the linear design. Open it up and make something players can play for as long as they want, whenever they want, not just per itinerary of game design. That's for old folks on tours. Who wants to be an old folk on a guided tour?
I want to see better AI, and I want to see things like traps that are actually dangerous and MOBs that interact with the game world. Same as the above ground world. Same as an undersea world.
Don't forget the curses (in real life ancient tombs).
Personally, I'm done with the traditional designs in games. I want to see an underworld setting that's full of interconnected tombs, ruins, and underworlds, connected by tunnels and caverns and an entire underworld ecosystem. Not for "everything dungeon", but for a lot of it. Multiple biospheres. Some could be buried city ruins, cursed with some evil force. Others could be multiple caverns connected with tunnels in the rock. Some could be combinations. And evil underground races eagerly digging into them all from deep below.
I'm tired of the linear design. Open it up and make something players can play for as long as they want, whenever they want, not just per itinerary of game design. That's for old folks on tours. Who wants to be an old folk on a guided tour?
I want to see better AI, and I want to see things like traps that are actually dangerous and MOBs that interact with the game world. Same as the above ground world. Same as an undersea world.
I don't really belive in actual curses myself but fine, the Egyptians surely did.
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
Don't forget the curses (in real life ancient tombs).
Personally, I'm done with the traditional designs in games. I want to see an underworld setting that's full of interconnected tombs, ruins, and underworlds, connected by tunnels and caverns and an entire underworld ecosystem. Not for "everything dungeon", but for a lot of it. Multiple biospheres. Some could be buried city ruins, cursed with some evil force. Others could be multiple caverns connected with tunnels in the rock. Some could be combinations. And evil underground races eagerly digging into them all from deep below.
I'm tired of the linear design. Open it up and make something players can play for as long as they want, whenever they want, not just per itinerary of game design. That's for old folks on tours. Who wants to be an old folk on a guided tour?
I want to see better AI, and I want to see things like traps that are actually dangerous and MOBs that interact with the game world. Same as the above ground world. Same as an undersea world.
I don't really belive in actual curses myself but fine, the Egyptians surely did.
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
And I agree with you.
I mentioned the curses just to point out the fantasy involved, which opens the ideas of monsters, "in the night" so to speak. In other words, it was that aspect of real life, supposed curses and all, that leads to the next steps in fantasy.
I don't want just an underground game, that's not what I meant either. But that's where I want to see that part of games go. I want a complete game world that's better than the stuff of present gaming in every way. It's time. No more "go here and do this" direction. Open world and let me go where I want on any given play session. Or let me stay where I am if I like it, and not suffer loss of advancement in the game or lack of entertainment.
I don't really belive in actual curses myself but fine, the Egyptians surely did.
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
And I agree with you.
I mentioned the curses just to point out the fantasy involved, which opens the ideas of monsters, "in the night" so to speak. In other words, it was that aspect of real life, supposed curses and all, that leads to the next steps in fantasy.
I don't want just an underground game, that's not what I meant either. But that's where I want to see that part of games go. I want a complete game world that's better than the stuff of present gaming in every way. It's time. No more "go here and do this" direction. Open world and let me go where I want on any given play session. Or let me stay where I am if I like it, and not suffer loss of advancement in the game or lack of entertainment.
Lol, I didn't say you believed in them either.
I could actually play a game only set in the underdark or with a overworld city or 2. Yes, some overworld maps as well doesn't hurt though.
I also don't like very much to be constantly told what to do and where to go but you need some kind of mechanics if you want to stay in the same zone a lot before then endgame (if you have an endgame).
A low powergap, GW2s downlevling mechanics or something else because it is not very fun to just run over anything I meet and the rewards should be based on Risk Vs reward after all.
I don't really belive in actual curses myself but fine, the Egyptians surely did.
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
And I agree with you.
I mentioned the curses just to point out the fantasy involved, which opens the ideas of monsters, "in the night" so to speak. In other words, it was that aspect of real life, supposed curses and all, that leads to the next steps in fantasy.
I don't want just an underground game, that's not what I meant either. But that's where I want to see that part of games go. I want a complete game world that's better than the stuff of present gaming in every way. It's time. No more "go here and do this" direction. Open world and let me go where I want on any given play session. Or let me stay where I am if I like it, and not suffer loss of advancement in the game or lack of entertainment.
Lol, I didn't say you believed in them either.
I could actually play a game only set in the underdark or with a overworld city or 2. Yes, some overworld maps as well doesn't hurt though.
I also don't like very much to be constantly told what to do and where to go but you need some kind of mechanics if you want to stay in the same zone a lot before then endgame (if you have an endgame).
A low powergap, GW2s downlevling mechanics or something else because it is not very fun to just run over anything I meet and the rewards should be based on Risk Vs reward after all.
Speaking of constantly being told what to do.
In another topic discussing the birth of the 3rd generation of mmos where Warhammer Online was the first of it's kind. Well, the second was "Rift Online".
Rift Online was the benchmark of carrot-on-a-stick. Two quest per quest hub as you move left to right across the zone until you load into another zone and start over. Everything about the game was FORCED unless a Rift opens up for everyone to run to. But once the event was over the player had to run to where they left off and play solo.... This could have gone unnoticed unless you played with a friend or group. Only then it became crystal clear apparent.
If a friend or another player was just a few levels above or below they were unable to help. You had to match quest for quest.
I have to say the hybrid class builds were great, and same with the dungeons.
I don't really belive in actual curses myself but fine, the Egyptians surely did.
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
And I agree with you.
I mentioned the curses just to point out the fantasy involved, which opens the ideas of monsters, "in the night" so to speak. In other words, it was that aspect of real life, supposed curses and all, that leads to the next steps in fantasy.
I don't want just an underground game, that's not what I meant either. But that's where I want to see that part of games go. I want a complete game world that's better than the stuff of present gaming in every way. It's time. No more "go here and do this" direction. Open world and let me go where I want on any given play session. Or let me stay where I am if I like it, and not suffer loss of advancement in the game or lack of entertainment.
Lol, I didn't say you believed in them either.
I could actually play a game only set in the underdark or with a overworld city or 2. Yes, some overworld maps as well doesn't hurt though.
I also don't like very much to be constantly told what to do and where to go but you need some kind of mechanics if you want to stay in the same zone a lot before then endgame (if you have an endgame).
A low powergap, GW2s downlevling mechanics or something else because it is not very fun to just run over anything I meet and the rewards should be based on Risk Vs reward after all.
Low power gaps fixes many, many flaws. All we have top do is give up that feeling like we're getting somewhere fast (next level and the power over previous level content) when in fact we find more of the same at the next level.
So, basically, that means that old content needs something to keep it fresh, fun, and entertaining. That's where the very fact of low power gaps fixes even that. Now you can take what used to be "higher level content" and mix it right in with what used to be "lower level content". -Danger persists. -Friendships persist, guilds become stronger units and centers of activity, purpose can be defined. -Players can feel like they have a home area/base. -Story and lore can be spread all over the game world, and be meaningful no matter what your level of advancement. -MOBs can move and be anywhere. -Story can move and be anywhere, allowing advanced and wide spread (deeper) design. Deeper mystery is possible and not restricted by level. -Rare and unique content becomes much more meaningful because it can be anywhere and never lose it's importance. -Past achievements are no longer something that becomes meaningless as you advance. -Newness can be anywhere on a regular basis. -The world can change without restrictions based on level design. -No need for problematic adjustments to character "levels" in order to allow them to mix in.
Low power gaps fixes many, many flaws. All we have top do is give up that feeling like we're getting somewhere fast (next level and the power over previous level content) when in fact we find more of the same at the next level.
So, basically, that means that old content needs something to keep it fresh, fun, and entertaining. That's where the very fact of low power gaps fixes even that. Now you can take what used to be "higher level content" and mix it right in with what used to be "lower level content". -Danger persists. -Friendships persist, guilds become stronger units and centers of activity, purpose can be defined. -Players can feel like they have a home area/base. -Story and lore can be spread all over the game world, and be meaningful no matter what your level of advancement. -MOBs can move and be anywhere. -Story can move and be anywhere, allowing advanced and wide spread (deeper) design. Deeper mystery is possible and not restricted by level. -Rare and unique content becomes much more meaningful because it can be anywhere and never lose it's importance. -Past achievements are no longer something that becomes meaningless as you advance. -Newness can be anywhere on a regular basis. -The world can change without restrictions based on level design. -No need for problematic adjustments to character "levels" in order to allow them to mix in.
Agreed but whenever I mention it people start crying a lot, low powergap also means that you can't outlevel things and actually have to learn how to play better. And you can't go to a lowbie zone and pretend you are a God (something very popular in any game with open world PvP).
Low power gaps fixes many, many flaws. All we have top do is give up that feeling like we're getting somewhere fast (next level and the power over previous level content) when in fact we find more of the same at the next level.
So, basically, that means that old content needs something to keep it fresh, fun, and entertaining. That's where the very fact of low power gaps fixes even that. Now you can take what used to be "higher level content" and mix it right in with what used to be "lower level content". -Danger persists. -Friendships persist, guilds become stronger units and centers of activity, purpose can be defined. -Players can feel like they have a home area/base. -Story and lore can be spread all over the game world, and be meaningful no matter what your level of advancement. -MOBs can move and be anywhere. -Story can move and be anywhere, allowing advanced and wide spread (deeper) design. Deeper mystery is possible and not restricted by level. -Rare and unique content becomes much more meaningful because it can be anywhere and never lose it's importance. -Past achievements are no longer something that becomes meaningless as you advance. -Newness can be anywhere on a regular basis. -The world can change without restrictions based on level design. -No need for problematic adjustments to character "levels" in order to allow them to mix in.
Agreed but whenever I mention it people start crying a lot, low powergap also means that you can't outlevel things and actually have to learn how to play better. And you can't go to a lowbie zone and pretend you are a God (something very popular in any game with open world PvP).
Yes! Many gamers like the combat style that allows personal input, such as in Skyrim. Sorry, I haven't played much of anything else in years so that's the best example I can give. This opens up tactical moves and thinking in that sense. This is a good thing.
As far as open PvP, and no actual punishment for abusing other players, that's a thing of the past as far as large scale MMO's go. Good for some games, including smaller scale MMO's, but not for a big MMO.
I've got an idea on PvP by action and reaction that MIGHT work though to simulate open world PvP, where one player commits a crime of sorts to open the door for other players to jump into PvP with them. And "crime" including such things as carrying an artifact that "belongs" to another group of players...so it's ok to take it by force in that case. That limits PvP, but allows it anywhere, anytime, as long as someone is committing a "crime" against others.
Example: A player takes an artifact from a dungeon, but this artifact has significance to a group of players who are official members to a "guild", or cult. This can be a religious group or even a guild of farmers whose artifact is a golden seed that brings better harvests. So anyone allied to that farmer "guild" can attack said player who took said seed.
Or a tavern owner spots a player stealing a silver cup from his tavern. His allied friends (by some guild association as "allies") can attack the thief without penalty, but if they do then that thief's friends (allied) can also join the fray. That's "realism", but limits PvP to times where an action causes it.
But then I'd also allow PvP at anytime against anyone, but with heavy penalties in the end for standard "crimes" such as murder and to a lesser degree theft.
So in other words, it's open PvP, but with stiff penalties UNLESS there's a playable cause.
Yes! Many gamers like the combat style that allows personal input, such as in Skyrim. Sorry, I haven't played much of anything else in years so that's the best example I can give. This opens up tactical moves and thinking in that sense. This is a good thing.
As far as open PvP, and no actual punishment for abusing other players, that's a thing of the past as far as large scale MMO's go. Good for some games, including smaller scale MMO's, but not for a big MMO.
I've got an idea on PvP by action and reaction that MIGHT work though to simulate open world PvP, where one player commits a crime of sorts to open the door for other players to jump into PvP with them. And "crime" including such things as carrying an artifact that "belongs" to another group of players...so it's ok to take it by force in that case. That limits PvP, but allows it anywhere, anytime, as long as someone is committing a "crime" against others.
Example: A player takes an artifact from a dungeon, but this artifact has significance to a group of players who are official members to a "guild", or cult. This can be a religious group or even a guild of farmers whose artifact is a golden seed that brings better harvests. So anyone allied to that farmer "guild" can attack said player who took said seed.
Or a tavern owner spots a player stealing a silver cup from his tavern. His allied friends (by some guild association as "allies") can attack the thief without penalty, but if they do then that thief's friends (allied) can also join the fray. That's "realism", but limits PvP to times where an action causes it.
But then I'd also allow PvP at anytime against anyone, but with heavy penalties in the end for standard "crimes" such as murder and to a lesser degree theft.
So in other words, it's open PvP, but with stiff penalties UNLESS there's a playable cause.
Just take battlefield, add a persistent world and a slight progression with low powergap and you have a open world PvP MMO that would get millions of players.
The reason full PvP MMOs don't work well at the moment is to a rather large degree because the powergap, whenever you fight someone in a FPS you can win or loose depending on luck and your personal skill. When levels and gear makes one side autowin most fights it just isn't fun.
Also, many MMOs add FFA PvP and full loot and those 2 is incredible hard if not impossible to have in a mainstream massive game. Even most FPS games have faction based PvP for a reason, it is what most players think is fun.
I think you are overthinking things, have 3-9 factions (with more then 3 you can have temporary war and peace between factions to make things more interesting), only allow none duel PvP against others factions (or factions you are at war with) and have a low powergap.
Stay away from looting other players or just let them loot the cash the players is wearing.
If you want a successful PvP MMO you need to look on the games from other genres that are very successful with it and make the combat rather similar but with a bit MMO styled progression. Something similar to the original Guildwars for instance.
Stay away from borrowing features for games that are niche but neither can you borrow the gameplay from PvE games where you progress through levels and powerful gear.
Penalties for PvP have never worked, it was tried already in UO and have since many times. What you need to do instead is to make PvP fun and accessible. Unless you want to make a niche game which is fine. Griefing is usually done by people who have zero chance of being killed by their victims, if you even the odds griefing will go down far more then by any penalty.
Yes! Many gamers like the combat style that allows personal input, such as in Skyrim. Sorry, I haven't played much of anything else in years so that's the best example I can give. This opens up tactical moves and thinking in that sense. This is a good thing.
As far as open PvP, and no actual punishment for abusing other players, that's a thing of the past as far as large scale MMO's go. Good for some games, including smaller scale MMO's, but not for a big MMO.
I've got an idea on PvP by action and reaction that MIGHT work though to simulate open world PvP, where one player commits a crime of sorts to open the door for other players to jump into PvP with them. And "crime" including such things as carrying an artifact that "belongs" to another group of players...so it's ok to take it by force in that case. That limits PvP, but allows it anywhere, anytime, as long as someone is committing a "crime" against others.
Example: A player takes an artifact from a dungeon, but this artifact has significance to a group of players who are official members to a "guild", or cult. This can be a religious group or even a guild of farmers whose artifact is a golden seed that brings better harvests. So anyone allied to that farmer "guild" can attack said player who took said seed.
Or a tavern owner spots a player stealing a silver cup from his tavern. His allied friends (by some guild association as "allies") can attack the thief without penalty, but if they do then that thief's friends (allied) can also join the fray. That's "realism", but limits PvP to times where an action causes it.
But then I'd also allow PvP at anytime against anyone, but with heavy penalties in the end for standard "crimes" such as murder and to a lesser degree theft.
So in other words, it's open PvP, but with stiff penalties UNLESS there's a playable cause.
Just take battlefield, add a persistent world and a slight progression with low powergap and you have a open world PvP MMO that would get millions of players.
The reason full PvP MMOs don't work well at the moment is to a rather large degree because the powergap, whenever you fight someone in a FPS you can win or loose depending on luck and your personal skill. When levels and gear makes one side autowin most fights it just isn't fun.
Also, many MMOs add FFA PvP and full loot and those 2 is incredible hard if not impossible to have in a mainstream massive game. Even most FPS games have faction based PvP for a reason, it is what most players think is fun.
I think you are overthinking things, have 3-9 factions (with more then 3 you can have temporary war and peace between factions to make things more interesting), only allow none duel PvP against others factions (or factions you are at war with) and have a low powergap.
Stay away from looting other players or just let them loot the cash the players is wearing.
If you want a successful PvP MMO you need to look on the games from other genres that are very successful with it and make the combat rather similar but with a bit MMO styled progression. Something similar to the original Guildwars for instance.
Stay away from borrowing features for games that are niche but neither can you borrow the gameplay from PvE games where you progress through levels and powerful gear.
Penalties for PvP have never worked, it was tried already in UO and have since many times. What you need to do instead is to make PvP fun and accessible. Unless you want to make a niche game which is fine. Griefing is usually done by people who have zero chance of being killed by their victims, if you even the odds griefing will go down far more then by any penalty.
STrange the most succesfull and well thought of MMORPG PvP games were all Very Unbalanced .. UO, DAoC, AC/DArktide,Shadowbane, Warhammer, Darkfall, Vanilla Wow.... Balance works for FPS .. it does not translate to sucess in an MMORPG , quite the contrary and reason it fails is the pathetic screams for balance , You want Balance go play a MOBA or a FPS .. MMORPGs best success at PvP came unbalanced because it cultivated community and teamwork ..
I like Darkfall but did you seriously just say it was one of the most successful MMOs? It was anything but. And Warhammer had a huge spike of players matched only by how rapidly that population declined. It's like a little blip on the MMO radar. I've called other MMOs a flash in the pan but Warhammer is the classic "flash in the pan" against which other MMOs can be measured.
DAoC, AC/Darktide, and Shadowbane are all highly debateable. They may have a lot of people that still love them, both those games had died out before I even realized they were a big deal or got the chance to play them. So obviously too few people loved them enough to keep actively playing them.
UO was a different market, in a different time. It got away with a lot of things because MMOs were in their infancy and the competition was a lot more sparse.
I like Darkfall but did you seriously just say it was one of the most successful MMOs? It was anything but. And Warhammer had a huge spike of players matched only by how rapidly that population declined. It's like a little blip on the MMO radar. I've called other MMOs a flash in the pan but Warhammer is the classic "flash in the pan" against which other MMOs can be measured.
DAoC, AC/Darktide, and Shadowbane are all highly debateable. Those games had died out before I even realized they were a big deal or got the chance to play them.
UO was a different market, in a different time. It got away with a lot of things because MMOs were in their infancy and the competition was a lot more sparse.
And WoW has never been a PvP focused game.
They are the most succesful well thought of PvP MMOrpgs ..is what i said .. thats different than most succesful MMOs isnt it ...
And it still stands unless you would like to remove one of those and put a better PvP MMORPG in its place .. plz do
And because you didnt realize it makes it what ... They didnt happen .. wtf .. and if you didnt play them you have no credibilty to speak on them ..
Absolutely. EVE. EVE is unquestionably the most successful PvP focused MMO ever, and you didn't even include it on your list. And while there has been no MMO made to date with a small power gap, EVE does have the lowest barrier to entry of any MMO out there in terms of stat gap. The tracking speed / sig radius mechanics make it possible to be useful in fleets from your very first day of play.
Absolutely. EVE. EVE is unquestionably the most successful focused PvP MMO ever, and you didn't even include it on your list. And while there has been no MMO made to date with a small power gap, EVE does have the lowest barrier to entry of any MMO out there. The tracking speed / sig radius mechanics make it possible to be useful in fleets from your very first day of play.
lmfao ,, thx forgot about Eve ...
Yes its not balanced either .. but thx for making my point
Comments
I do not see a LOT has to change but improvement for certain,which is why i laugh when i see review scores over 8,all of these games have massive room for improvement,they are NOT and never will be an 8.
I also need to see/hear a good plausible reason for changing an idea and it needs to make plausible sense and not just because you didn't like that certain idea in another game.
A perfect example is linear questing.I don't mind if there is a design section for players to run quests all the time,however i do not want to see ANY class xp associated with them.
So yes that example is an example of what to "improve" in a certain design.Another would be those ugly yellow markers a lot of devs like to put over npc heads,is an immersion breaker,should not exist in games.Players should NEVER be vee lining for a yellow marker,we are suppose to be playing like we live in a world not like we are playing connect the dots with computer code.
Mob Ai .."improved",aggro systems improved,maps improved,character customization..improved,it is endless,all of these games should be improved over the years,instead i am seeing massive worlds turned into Diablo/Baldur's gate type games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Quests were originally a simple way to point you to certain content and to teach you new mechanics but Everquest kinda stopped that and made it one of the main gamemechanics. And the thing is that a large well written and challenging quest is fun. What isn't fun is grinding quests.
Dynamic events is also an improvement on quests but just like quests there are good DEs and bad ones. DEs can be very fun if used the right way but rather frustrating if you use it like in GW2: HoT.
But yes, some things have seen little or no improvement. The mobs are generally as stupid today as they have ever been, in more then a few games stupider then ever.
Character customization is a mixed thing, your character looks a lot more unique but generally are your viable options far more limited today then in earlier games.
Making something simpler and more streamlined can be an improvement but it can also be just dumbing down things for no good reason.
A good MMO should be like chess, easy to learn but hard to master.
As much as people dress it up nice and talk about "Hero's Journeys" on the forums you meet so many people in-game that make fun of people for being lower level, or having lower gearscore, and use the strength of their in-game character as a measure of their worth.
Those people don't care about making friends, those people don't care about being immersed in a storyline, and those people don't care about exploring the world. So how did developers respond? They got rid of all those things because people didn't care about them.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
It also had roaming mobs and aggro through walls and floors which could cause some unfortunate and inexplicable wipes.
Often players would attribute the unpredictability to bugs, perhaps so but the result was (and still is on the free shard) far more challenge and losses than is seen in most games today.
In your archery example above, did the 5 adds wipe you? In DAOC they definitely would have especially as an archer, only Necros , BoneDancers and Chanters really had any chance in that circumstance, everyone either fled to zone or entrance or until aggro dropped.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The player base grew from a few million mmo enthusiasts to a few hundred million gamers who brought in a somewhat different taste; of course mmos had to change. We still have those few million mmo geeks (not the same people, just the same taste) and no one makes mmos for them (I am deliberately disregarding upcomming indie projects untill I see the results). The rest of the player base are much higher in numbers so naturally a company want to target this segment for maximum profit, and that results in the mmos we get now..though this large player base is also fragmented and as different mmos move further out of traditional mmo genre, these players divide - That is why the wow numbers can not be replicated again even with a generic game as good as wow.
I can't back this up, but from what I heard many people from the movie industry got jobs in the mmo industry, and with them came narrative and story driven mmos were the result. Whatever is the reason that story driven mmos came to be the standard way to make mmos, the story driven trend plays a huge role in old mmo problems not getting improved on..simply because those are not very relevant in story driven mmos.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Often players understood their roll in tank healer and dps, but very little on the tactical side of things, like bringing casters around the corner or into another room. Moving slow and plotting out the next move is faster than rushing.
Being a game from 2004 it was amazing how mobs could suck a group into a bad experience.
Simple tactics were learned by gamer's long before Wow arrived.Mostly it was because of bad game design/coding but still players had to adapt to for example drawing hate through walls and aggroing 20 mobs.Even games never mentioned around here offer tactics and difficult gameplay,it is not akin just to the few mentioned games inside of dungeons.
Itf so happens there is the odd cave dweller boss for some unknown reason,so be it,but creating dungeon after dungeon instances just tells me how bad that developer is at designing a game and is looking for EASY ways to do it.A game should foremost be reinforcing the immersive and RP feel of a game,not reinforcing end game dungeon instance looting,this would imo be considered an old school game design FLAW.
I want a game to look and feel like a real world would look.I would like to see developers reinforce the open game worlds and not dumb them down into single player game designs,then claim to be an online mmo.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Another inspiration is probably the tunnel system of Cu Chi in Vietnam, it was in clear memory when D&D came out and it also had plenty of traps as well as guards,
But early RPG dungeons did have a far higher focus on traps and less on mobs, the players had to spend a lot of time outwitting fiendish traps. That type of gameplay does not translate that good to MMOs and already had problems in D&D because those trap dungeons needs a certainly mentality from your players to be fun so we also got the classic orc and goblin cavern systems to clear for players who wanted more action.
A well made massive dungeon is still fun in my book but the shorter ones just made to fight a hard boss after a bunch of trash mobs gets boring after a while.
Personally, I'm done with the traditional designs in games.
I want to see an underworld setting that's full of interconnected tombs, ruins, and underworlds, connected by tunnels and caverns and an entire underworld ecosystem. Not for "everything dungeon", but for a lot of it. Multiple biospheres. Some could be buried city ruins, cursed with some evil force. Others could be multiple caverns connected with tunnels in the rock. Some could be combinations. And evil underground races eagerly digging into them all from deep below.
I'm tired of the linear design. Open it up and make something players can play for as long as they want, whenever they want, not just per itinerary of game design. That's for old folks on tours. Who wants to be an old folk on a guided tour?
I want to see better AI, and I want to see things like traps that are actually dangerous and MOBs that interact with the game world.
Same as the above ground world.
Same as an undersea world.
Once upon a time....
I wouldn't mind an Underdark MMO (it is an underworld region of the Forgotten realms if anyone missed that).
And I agree with you.
I don't want just an underground game, that's not what I meant either. But that's where I want to see that part of games go.
I want a complete game world that's better than the stuff of present gaming in every way.
It's time.
No more "go here and do this" direction. Open world and let me go where I want on any given play session. Or let me stay where I am if I like it, and not suffer loss of advancement in the game or lack of entertainment.
Once upon a time....
I could actually play a game only set in the underdark or with a overworld city or 2. Yes, some overworld maps as well doesn't hurt though.
I also don't like very much to be constantly told what to do and where to go but you need some kind of mechanics if you want to stay in the same zone a lot before then endgame (if you have an endgame).
A low powergap, GW2s downlevling mechanics or something else because it is not very fun to just run over anything I meet and the rewards should be based on Risk Vs reward after all.
Speaking of constantly being told what to do.
In another topic discussing the birth of the 3rd generation of mmos where Warhammer Online was the first of it's kind. Well, the second was "Rift Online".
Rift Online was the benchmark of carrot-on-a-stick. Two quest per quest hub as you move left to right across the zone until you load into another zone and start over. Everything about the game was FORCED unless a Rift opens up for everyone to run to. But once the event was over the player had to run to where they left off and play solo.... This could have gone unnoticed unless you played with a friend or group. Only then it became crystal clear apparent.
If a friend or another player was just a few levels above or below they were unable to help. You had to match quest for quest.
I have to say the hybrid class builds were great, and same with the dungeons.
All we have top do is give up that feeling like we're getting somewhere fast (next level and the power over previous level content) when in fact we find more of the same at the next level.
So, basically, that means that old content needs something to keep it fresh, fun, and entertaining.
That's where the very fact of low power gaps fixes even that. Now you can take what used to be "higher level content" and mix it right in with what used to be "lower level content".
-Danger persists.
-Friendships persist, guilds become stronger units and centers of activity, purpose can be defined.
-Players can feel like they have a home area/base.
-Story and lore can be spread all over the game world, and be meaningful no matter what your level of advancement.
-MOBs can move and be anywhere.
-Story can move and be anywhere, allowing advanced and wide spread (deeper) design. Deeper mystery is possible and not restricted by level.
-Rare and unique content becomes much more meaningful because it can be anywhere and never lose it's importance.
-Past achievements are no longer something that becomes meaningless as you advance.
-Newness can be anywhere on a regular basis.
-The world can change without restrictions based on level design.
-No need for problematic adjustments to character "levels" in order to allow them to mix in.
Once upon a time....
Many gamers like the combat style that allows personal input, such as in Skyrim. Sorry, I haven't played much of anything else in years so that's the best example I can give.
This opens up tactical moves and thinking in that sense.
This is a good thing.
As far as open PvP, and no actual punishment for abusing other players, that's a thing of the past as far as large scale MMO's go. Good for some games, including smaller scale MMO's, but not for a big MMO.
I've got an idea on PvP by action and reaction that MIGHT work though to simulate open world PvP, where one player commits a crime of sorts to open the door for other players to jump into PvP with them.
And "crime" including such things as carrying an artifact that "belongs" to another group of players...so it's ok to take it by force in that case.
That limits PvP, but allows it anywhere, anytime, as long as someone is committing a "crime" against others.
Example:
A player takes an artifact from a dungeon, but this artifact has significance to a group of players who are official members to a "guild", or cult. This can be a religious group or even a guild of farmers whose artifact is a golden seed that brings better harvests.
So anyone allied to that farmer "guild" can attack said player who took said seed.
Or a tavern owner spots a player stealing a silver cup from his tavern. His allied friends (by some guild association as "allies") can attack the thief without penalty, but if they do then that thief's friends (allied) can also join the fray.
That's "realism", but limits PvP to times where an action causes it.
But then I'd also allow PvP at anytime against anyone, but with heavy penalties in the end for standard "crimes" such as murder and to a lesser degree theft.
So in other words, it's open PvP, but with stiff penalties UNLESS there's a playable cause.
Once upon a time....
The reason full PvP MMOs don't work well at the moment is to a rather large degree because the powergap, whenever you fight someone in a FPS you can win or loose depending on luck and your personal skill. When levels and gear makes one side autowin most fights it just isn't fun.
Also, many MMOs add FFA PvP and full loot and those 2 is incredible hard if not impossible to have in a mainstream massive game. Even most FPS games have faction based PvP for a reason, it is what most players think is fun.
I think you are overthinking things, have 3-9 factions (with more then 3 you can have temporary war and peace between factions to make things more interesting), only allow none duel PvP against others factions (or factions you are at war with) and have a low powergap.
Stay away from looting other players or just let them loot the cash the players is wearing.
If you want a successful PvP MMO you need to look on the games from other genres that are very successful with it and make the combat rather similar but with a bit MMO styled progression. Something similar to the original Guildwars for instance.
Stay away from borrowing features for games that are niche but neither can you borrow the gameplay from PvE games where you progress through levels and powerful gear.
Penalties for PvP have never worked, it was tried already in UO and have since many times. What you need to do instead is to make PvP fun and accessible. Unless you want to make a niche game which is fine. Griefing is usually done by people who have zero chance of being killed by their victims, if you even the odds griefing will go down far more then by any penalty.
DAoC, AC/Darktide, and Shadowbane are all highly debateable. They may have a lot of people that still love them, both those games had died out before I even realized they were a big deal or got the chance to play them. So obviously too few people loved them enough to keep actively playing them.
UO was a different market, in a different time. It got away with a lot of things because MMOs were in their infancy and the competition was a lot more sparse.
And WoW has never been a PvP focused game.
And it still stands unless you would like to remove one of those and put a better PvP MMORPG in its place .. plz do
And because you didnt realize it makes it what ... They didnt happen .. wtf .. and if you didnt play them you have no credibilty to speak on them ..
Yes its not balanced either .. but thx for making my point