Star Wars Battlefront II or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and the Love the Loot Box - Michael Bitt

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  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257

    Nyctelios said:


    Torval said:


    Wizardry said:


    Blinkenn said:

    Corporations that prey on the weak-willed need regulating. At least China, Korea, and Japan have some laws that force devs to show loot box drop rates.



    I agree the same reasons we have laws behind seatbelts and distracted driving and selling liquor to someone already over the limit,tobacco to minors,because a lot of people are not capable of thinking rationally or with any common sense.

    Even when there are laws,those corporations,businesses are still using lawyers to find ways around circumventing the law.Geesh even the governments are trying to circumvent their own law/legislature with new legislature that claims to  be on behalf of homeland security,people all over the world are SOB's,corrupt and trying to exploit other people.

    You know the first sign someone is incapable of engaging in a rational argument? False equivalencies. It's a favored tool of those that have no logical footing to stand on.


    50 to 100% damage reduction scaling. That's my logical footing to stand on.



    Just to clear things up: If you're referring to the Boba Fett upgrade, that card only reduces incoming damage while flying and firing his Rocket Barrage ability (30s CD in the beta). He isn't just walking or flying around taking 50-100% less damage due to a Star Card. It's basically your standard sort of "take less damage when channeling X ability" type upgrade and only if he's flying at the same time.

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,356
    Mike, your pic is creepy.  On topic, me no likey.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257

    DrunkWolf said:

    you know whats going to happen with this? its going to lead to even more people using aim bots.



    They cant deal with the cheating now, imagine how many people are going to spend 10 bucks on a aimbot instead of some stupid loot crate hahaha



    this game is so doomed on PC, will probably sell a boat load because its star wars but population of players will be next to nothing in 6 months.






    I'm actually highly concerned about aimbots in SWBF2 in general. SWBF1 had rampant cheaters everywhere. DICE needs to step things up here.
    Siug

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 14,451
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    ... but apparently box fees don't cover the costs of development in the 21st Century...

    I would like to see definitive proof that this is the case in a B2P game. The thought that all these extras are necessary to cover the cost is at the root of the casual acceptance by gamers of these business models.

    IMO it's just an imported concept from the F2P world where, the argument can clearly be made that they are needed. It helps to rationalize their inclusion in games where the same argument makes no sense.

    Until I see proof (and fat chance any of them will open their books enough to prove it,) I'm looking at all of these as extra profit, not as covering the cost of development.
    Nothing is that cleanly defined that it can easily and simply be divided into binary categories. Roget couldn't even do it and he was brilliant.

    How much a business considers necessary to justify production, development, or an expense is subjective. My point is they consider it necessary to return an amount of revenue. They can do that through broader sales, tiered sales (what they're doing now or with DLC), or fewer sales at a higher pricepoint. What is going to maximize revenue? You'll never get a consistent answer between publishers or games within a publisher. EA might have different expectations and budgets for different titles.

    So of course it's extra profit. Saying it covers the cost of development is more likely alluding to the product returning the expected revenue not as a specific budget item. I agree that it's not simply something to cover the budget, but rather a key component in a more complicated revenue projection.
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  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257

    Talonsin said:

    Mike, your pic is creepy.  On topic, me no likey.



    Palpatine with shades is creepy? Pfft.
    IselinTorvalSiuginfomatz

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne UKMember RarePosts: 3,224
    Opinions like this are what are driving gaming into the dust.

    We shouldn't even be in a situation where we have to evaluate the worth of playing a game based on the micro transactions that come with it but here we are.. analysing every game.. accepting it.. still buying the games.. still using the micro transactions.

    If it's free to play then fair enough, they can put in whatever transactions they want, you can't complain if it didn't cost you anything in the first place. If you pay for the game and the transactions aren't cosmetic or, at the absolute 'worst', just simple XP boosters then it's the devil at work.

    Battlefront loot crates give clear unlimited tactical and combat advantages if you keep buying them due to the game's card system. You can not have an unlimited advantage without paying, no matter how good you are. You can get 'some' cards without paying, but those that do pay can have cards active all the time and can keep getting the exact cards they want. No argument, no discussion... it's pay to win. This is the definition of pay to win; advantages you can not get without paying.

    I hate to think what gaming is going to be like in another 10 years.
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCMember LegendaryPosts: 9,930
    edited October 12
    Torval said:
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    ... but apparently box fees don't cover the costs of development in the 21st Century...

    I would like to see definitive proof that this is the case in a B2P game. The thought that all these extras are necessary to cover the cost is at the root of the casual acceptance by gamers of these business models.

    IMO it's just an imported concept from the F2P world where, the argument can clearly be made that they are needed. It helps to rationalize their inclusion in games where the same argument makes no sense.

    Until I see proof (and fat chance any of them will open their books enough to prove it,) I'm looking at all of these as extra profit, not as covering the cost of development.
    Nothing is that cleanly defined that it can easily and simply be divided into binary categories. Roget couldn't even do it and he was brilliant.

    How much a business considers necessary to justify production, development, or an expense is subjective. My point is they consider it necessary to return an amount of revenue. They can do that through broader sales, tiered sales (what they're doing now or with DLC), or fewer sales at a higher pricepoint. What is going to maximize revenue? You'll never get a consistent answer between publishers or games within a publisher. EA might have different expectations and budgets for different titles.

    So of course it's extra profit. Saying it covers the cost of development is more likely alluding to the product returning the expected revenue not as a specific budget item. I agree that it's not simply something to cover the budget, but rather a key component in a more complicated revenue projection.
    Of course. But the statement "cover the cost" in common everyday discussions carries with it an implication of "breaking even" to most people that see it. And that is either deliberately or inadvertently misleading.

    It shouldn't be used synonymously with "cover the projected target revenue" the way it often is here.

    I mean... don't you see the irony in the fact that this sort of thing was extremely rare in B2P games 10 or 20 years ago when the box sales numbers were a fraction of what they are today? Now they are pulling in a lot more from just general up front sales and microtransactions are everywhere in B2P games.

    Something tells me this is all about "greed is good" where no ROI is ever too obscene. It kind of reminds me of banks with transaction fees... covering the cost? :)
    Post edited by Iselin on
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  • MykellMykell MackayMember UncommonPosts: 679
    So this site is now actively promoting P2W. Just wow.

    Over at Massively they are the complete opposite http://massivelyop.com/2017/10/11/but-seriously-lockboxes-suck-even-if-the-esrb-doesnt-think-theyre-gambling-stop-buying-lockboxes/ thankfully.

    No argument will ever convince me that P2W lockboxes are the future of gaming.
  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257
    Update from EA just released now:

    "We know you have a lot of questions about Crates and progression, so we want to clarify a few things, as the complete system was not in the Beta and will continue to be tuned over time:
    • There are many things you can earn in the game, including weapons, attachments, credits, Star Cards, Emotes, Outfits and Victory Poses.
    • As a balance goal, we’re working towards having the most powerful items in the game only earnable via in-game achievements.
    • Crates will include a mix of of Star Cards, Outfits, Emotes or Victory Poses.
    • Players earn crates by completing challenges and other gameplay milestones, or by purchasing them with in-game credits or Crystals, our premium currency.
    • If you get a duplicate Star Card in a crate, you will get crafting parts which you can then use to help upgrade the Star Card of your choice.
    • And lastly, you have to earn the right to be able to upgrade Star Cards and unlock most Weapons. You can only upgrade or unlock them if you have reached a high enough rank, which is determined by playing the game.

    We also have heard some players are looking for a way to play where all players will have the same set of Star Cards with flattened values. Like everything else, we will be continually making necessary changes to ensure the game is fun for everyone. We will work to make sure the system is balanced both for players who want to earn everything, as well as for players who are short on time and would like to move faster in their progress towards various rewards."

    Thoughts?


    arjemourTorvalZenereninfomatz

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYMember RarePosts: 2,165
    So if they don’t consider it gambling because you always win something… can we change casinos to where they give you penny if you lose. Wait not lose, just win less than you gamble… I mean… win less than you pay.

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  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABMember RarePosts: 1,973
    What a piss poor argument. You should be ashamed for writing something that tries to defend loot boxes, esp. in this case. The entire article is hot garbage.
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  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,248
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    The rational behind this argument is a lot like trying to make a good case for why being a prostitute is an acceptable career alternative for your daughter.

    Might be true as opposed to some other bad options but not sure learning to live with it is the right way to go.
    Great false equivalency. Those are excellent click grabbers.
    Says the guy comparing RNG to direct skin purchase.
    Torval

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  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy ItalyMember UncommonPosts: 63
    Funny how there seems to be no game around, openly labelled as pay-to-win. Every time a game is under scrutiny for bordering the p2w area, someone always finds the silver-lining: "Relax folks, this LOOKS like p2w, but let me explain to you why it isn't."
    Really glad that this Star Wars is not pay to win, too bad it is EA otherwise I would have tried it...
    Xodic
  • NycteliosNyctelios Novo Hamburgo - RS - BrazilMember EpicPosts: 2,248
    MikeB said:

    Nyctelios said:


    Torval said:


    Wizardry said:


    Blinkenn said:

    Corporations that prey on the weak-willed need regulating. At least China, Korea, and Japan have some laws that force devs to show loot box drop rates.



    I agree the same reasons we have laws behind seatbelts and distracted driving and selling liquor to someone already over the limit,tobacco to minors,because a lot of people are not capable of thinking rationally or with any common sense.

    Even when there are laws,those corporations,businesses are still using lawyers to find ways around circumventing the law.Geesh even the governments are trying to circumvent their own law/legislature with new legislature that claims to  be on behalf of homeland security,people all over the world are SOB's,corrupt and trying to exploit other people.

    You know the first sign someone is incapable of engaging in a rational argument? False equivalencies. It's a favored tool of those that have no logical footing to stand on.


    50 to 100% damage reduction scaling. That's my logical footing to stand on.



    Just to clear things up: If you're referring to the Boba Fett upgrade, that card only reduces incoming damage while flying and firing his Rocket Barrage ability (30s CD in the beta). He isn't just walking or flying around taking 50-100% less damage due to a Star Card. It's basically your standard sort of "take less damage when channeling X ability" type upgrade and only if he's flying at the same time.
    I'm aware of that. I don't see how it justify anything.

    You dump a lot of money to get a lot of scraps to level your cards or to get good cards, the class level that unlocks extra slots is tied to your cards level. So as you spend more you become stronger. Literally.

    So that Fett also has another sweet deals on this sleeve. Since progression is tied to spending and the money to purchase loot boxes is the same for everyone of your team in every match. The only progression unique to you is how much you spend your money or how much RNG favors you.


    I'm not sure what this site is trying to achieve with this article besides "EA, give us goodies".
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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne UKMember RarePosts: 3,224
    edited October 12

    MikeB said:

    Update from EA just released now:

    "We know you have a lot of questions about Crates and progression, so
    we want to clarify a few things, as the complete system was not in the
    Beta and will continue to be tuned over time:
    • There are many things you can earn in the game, including weapons,
      attachments, credits, Star Cards, Emotes, Outfits and Victory Poses.
    • As a balance goal, we’re working towards having the most powerful items in the game only earnable via in-game achievements.
    • Crates will include a mix of of Star Cards, Outfits, Emotes or Victory Poses.
    • Players earn crates by completing challenges and other gameplay
      milestones, or by purchasing them with in-game credits or Crystals, our
      premium currency.
    • If you get a duplicate Star Card in a crate, you will get crafting
      parts which you can then use to help upgrade the Star Card of your
      choice.
    • And lastly, you have to earn the right to be able to upgrade Star
      Cards and unlock most Weapons. You can only upgrade or unlock them if
      you have reached a high enough rank, which is determined by playing the
      game.

    We also have heard
    some players are looking for a way to play where all players will have
    the same set of Star Cards with flattened values. Like everything else,
    we will be continually making necessary changes to ensure the game is
    fun for everyone. We will work to make sure the system is balanced both
    for players who want to earn everything, as well as for players who are
    short on time and would like to move faster in their progress towards
    various rewards."

    Thoughts?





    Gating the P2W is still P2W.

    It'll be easier for whales to earn the achievement related items... and easier for them to stop you earning them. 

    Providing a mode that doesn't allow upgrades removes features from the game for those who prefer not to be affected by loot crate purchases. So.. to get a fair game play experience you lose all progression features.

    Not gunna fix the problem.

    They'll never do it, but the only fix is a mode that means you'll never get paired with a user who has spent real money.
    Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
    Gdemami
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko JohannesburgMember EpicPosts: 6,542
    I guess it was a logical progression, lol

    If all games become "P2W", then you'll either have to give up gaming, or start paying !

    My bet is that most gamers will choose the latter option... :D
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,069
    edited October 12
    I give up.
    Post edited by Gorwe on
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,069
    edited October 12
    /nevermind
    Post edited by Gorwe on
  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAMember RarePosts: 1,475
    edited October 12
    Usually, I laugh off the accusations of shilling as being nothing more than ignorant gamers devaluing the reviewer's opinion. This load of corporate horse shit, however, is gross and unethical. 

    Pay to win loot boxes in a competitive multiplayer game that you pay upfront for is not a grey area. It's just an unethical business practice. End of story.
    Post edited by Aeander on
    GorweAlomarmrputtsPhixion13
  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,069
    MikeB said:

    Nyctelios said:


    Torval said:


    Wizardry said:


    Blinkenn said:

    Corporations that prey on the weak-willed need regulating. At least China, Korea, and Japan have some laws that force devs to show loot box drop rates.



    I agree the same reasons we have laws behind seatbelts and distracted driving and selling liquor to someone already over the limit,tobacco to minors,because a lot of people are not capable of thinking rationally or with any common sense.

    Even when there are laws,those corporations,businesses are still using lawyers to find ways around circumventing the law.Geesh even the governments are trying to circumvent their own law/legislature with new legislature that claims to  be on behalf of homeland security,people all over the world are SOB's,corrupt and trying to exploit other people.

    You know the first sign someone is incapable of engaging in a rational argument? False equivalencies. It's a favored tool of those that have no logical footing to stand on.


    50 to 100% damage reduction scaling. That's my logical footing to stand on.



    Just to clear things up: If you're referring to the Boba Fett upgrade, that card only reduces incoming damage while flying and firing his Rocket Barrage ability (30s CD in the beta). He isn't just walking or flying around taking 50-100% less damage due to a Star Card. It's basically your standard sort of "take less damage when channeling X ability" type upgrade and only if he's flying at the same time.
    So 30s CD. How long does it last? If it is 2-5s, who cares. Even if it is 10, it's manageable.

    But I think that people like Jim and TB are blowing this way out of proportion. There are some broken systems, true(look at AJ's video). A guy with 50 and 2 kills gets the same reward? ROFL! But the exact ethicalness of these cards depends on various factors: mainly numbers on skills and various game mechanics assigned to them. It's funny how no critics mention this CRUCIAL PART. If Boba's ability's nothing more than, excuse the SWTOR lingo, Blade Blitz or Saber Reflect, who cares. If it's more...uh-oh!
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Somewhere in TimeMember EpicPosts: 2,552
    I highly, highly doubt that Electronic Arts is paying, or otherwise compensating mmorpg.com for saying something mildly favorable about the game's business model.
  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257
    Gorwe said:
    How much did they pay you to say that? Or are you just being a contrarian for the sake of it?

    Be honest, earn some respect.
    Pay me to say what? That I prefer crates to the convoluted progression systems in other Battlefield games? Yeah, I'd rather have things be a simple stupid RNG box than have to do obnoxious assignments and level up 30 different things. That's my personal preference after having spent hundreds of hours in every Battlefield game available on PC. Obviously, I'd prefer said boxes not to be available for pay, but I can live with it if it means those who do pay are subsidizing free DLC for the rest of us, which has the bonus effect of solving community fragmentation and P2W due to the sale of paid DLC. Aside from the RNG, there's not really any new ground being charted here. You've been able to pay to skip through progression in Battlefield games forever. I've simply considered the whole thing and found the pros to potentially outweigh the cons if the system is properly implemented and that's all that I've laid out here today.

    Feel free to disagree and articulate your reasons why. That's why I wrote the thing to begin with. I'm well aware that my position is in the minority and that's OK. I was just hoping to offer a different angle and encourage people to wait and see how things are implemented at launch when we'll have a fuller picture.
    GorweTorvalZenerenPhixion13Aeander

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    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYAdministrator RarePosts: 6,257
    Gorwe said:
    MikeB said:

    Nyctelios said:


    Torval said:


    Wizardry said:


    Blinkenn said:

    Corporations that prey on the weak-willed need regulating. At least China, Korea, and Japan have some laws that force devs to show loot box drop rates.



    I agree the same reasons we have laws behind seatbelts and distracted driving and selling liquor to someone already over the limit,tobacco to minors,because a lot of people are not capable of thinking rationally or with any common sense.

    Even when there are laws,those corporations,businesses are still using lawyers to find ways around circumventing the law.Geesh even the governments are trying to circumvent their own law/legislature with new legislature that claims to  be on behalf of homeland security,people all over the world are SOB's,corrupt and trying to exploit other people.

    You know the first sign someone is incapable of engaging in a rational argument? False equivalencies. It's a favored tool of those that have no logical footing to stand on.


    50 to 100% damage reduction scaling. That's my logical footing to stand on.



    Just to clear things up: If you're referring to the Boba Fett upgrade, that card only reduces incoming damage while flying and firing his Rocket Barrage ability (30s CD in the beta). He isn't just walking or flying around taking 50-100% less damage due to a Star Card. It's basically your standard sort of "take less damage when channeling X ability" type upgrade and only if he's flying at the same time.
    So 30s CD. How long does it last? If it is 2-5s, who cares. Even if it is 10, it's manageable.

    The channel time is around 2.5-3s, IIRC. And you have to be flying (exposed) to get the bonus at all.

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnMember RarePosts: 4,069
    edited October 12
    MikeB said:
    Gorwe said:
    How much did they pay you to say that? Or are you just being a contrarian for the sake of it?

    Be honest, earn some respect.
    Pay me to say what? That I prefer crates to the convoluted progression systems in other Battlefield games? Yeah, I'd rather have things be a simple stupid RNG box than have to do obnoxious assignments and level up 30 different things. That's my personal preference after having spent hundreds of hours in every Battlefield game available on PC. Obviously, I'd prefer said boxes not to be available for pay, but I can live with it if it means those who do pay are subsidizing free DLC for the rest of us, which has the bonus effect of solving community fragmentation and P2W due to the sale of paid DLC. Aside from the RNG, there's not really any new ground being charted here. You've been able to pay to skip through progression in Battlefield games forever. I've simply considered the whole thing and found the pros to potentially outweigh the cons if the system is properly implemented and that's all that I've laid out here today.

    Feel free to disagree and articulate your reasons why. That's why I wrote the thing to begin with. I'm well aware that my position is in the minority and that's OK. I was just hoping to offer a different angle and encourage people to wait and see how things are implemented at launch when we'll have a fuller picture.

    First, the call to "it's been like that since whenever, so whatever". It doesn't work. Bad practices should be stopped no matter how long they've been going.

    Second, your whole argument basically comes down to "would I rather get struck by a gavel few times or by whip many times". Both options ARE SHIT. So, how about "none, thank you very much"? Both the super repetitive grinds a la SWTOR's GalCom and the lootboxes are bad for everyone except CEOs(fuck them, greedy bastards!). If costs have risen and profits with them as well, meaning more expensive games, how come programmers are still being laid off en masse? Royalties not being paid. Games becoming ever more increasing Skinner Boxes and tech updates falling by wayside? Only so we could have the choice "GRRRRRIIIIINNNDDD" vs "loot boxes".

    Listen, if you think like that, Riccitiello / Kotick and co have ALREADY WON. Don't hand them easy win. They don't deserve it. Also:



    Case closed!

    edit: Don't take this the wrong way. I don't care about devs, writers and whoever else. I just don't like being manipulated / forced to do something and I represent only myself and the grim future of my gaming. And I want to HAVE FUN, not to be made FUN OFF, milked then zone off like some BTL junkie(sorry for Shadowrun reference). Look at Dark Souls and the like. Hell, look at BF2 and Shadow of...War(is it?). They're FINE GAMES, just completely ruined by this crap. Again, I represent only myself and how I'd rather buy Kaladesh / Amonkhet decks than purchase silly loot boxes. When outside of cosmetics(even that is debatable in a 60$ game) I by all rights should not. And I am not, rest assured of that.
    Post edited by Gorwe on
    Gdemami
  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member UncommonPosts: 505




    In a single player game, I could care less about micro transactions. When discussing loot boxes or paying real money for items in multiplayer games, they really should be cosmetic only. Being able to purchase the best items with a credit card eliminates the joy of pure and balanced (as can be anyways) competition.



    Remember the RMAH fiasco with Diablo 3? It tarnished the franchise name and it took Blizzard a couple years and an expansion to fix it. And D3 didn’t even have PVP!



    This is a poor choice on EA’s part and I know the backlash is going to be strong. The question is, are enough people going to vote with their wallets and voice their concerns through the appropriate channels, or will the Star Wars label and release of a new movie overshadow the gamebreaking pay-2-win?



    I hope for the former, but being a huge Star Wars nerd myself I know people are going to gobble this game up and make EA millions in the first week. I can’t say I blame them, we’ve been deprived of AAA Star Wars games since Lucasarts went under.



    I know many people on facebook and other friends who are still buying the new battlefront 2. Mostly my console gaming friends who say they don't care about micro-transactions and just want to play a fun star wars game (their words).

    The backlash on this is overblown and will make very little difference to the sales of battlefront 2. Most people don't care, despite the rage on youtube and some gaming sites. They just don't go on forums and talk about it, because they are playing the game or just don't care enough to go to forums or even use forums.

    Its like the new middle earth game. Its done really well in sales despite some rage at whatever was going on with it (loot boxes? dunno, didn't bother to look). However my console gaming friends are really enjoying the new middle earth game and don't care about any controversy with it.



    The same thing was said about MEA and we see where that stands now. I think it will do fine at first, but something tells me in a few months many maps/mods will be empty, just like the BF1 after it launched. I won't touch a game that locks progression behind RNG or a SP game that has loot boxes at all.
    Gruug

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