Graphics

delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,098
I'm a big fan of Pantheon, to me it's the last hope. I could tell you right now I'll be sticking by this game for what the game play will be, that's a fact.

HOWEVER, I have my fears about the coding and programming.  I'm not a programmer, not even close.  I know my ways around hardware and Windows and that's about it. 

In my observation and it's only my opinion, the game looks exactly like Vanguard but 10% better.  But I don't care about better or even looking like Vanguard at all.  I don't care about graphics...... I care about coding, programming, hardware and software compatibles and smooth gameplay.

I know it's pre-alpha, things will change.  BUT I see pop-in's of players, disconnected hands, buildings and rocks that have a floating appearance, shore lines that seem off in ways that are hard to explain...... All the graphic problems of Everquest 2 back in 2004, and we all know that games was a coding mess.  It was so bad that Blizzard's World of Warcraft excelled way beyond because of it.

Pleasing the graphics hounds worries me !!!    
Post edited by delete5230 on
GdemamiThunder073
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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,098
    It's 2017, a good looking game should be able to run on a toaster.  If not back off on the graphics and make it run on a toaster.

    Then again who am I to say ?
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    I'm sure it will improve significantly before launching,  but will always lack the polish of a AAA game.

    There are no miracles in software development, it costs big money and most of these indie MMORPGs don't have enough funding (IMO) go deliver a polished, full featured, high graphics MMORPG.

    Albion Online, Shrouds of the Avatar,  Life is Feudal are very likely harbingers of what to expect from most of these games, but then again, who knows,  maybe one of them will surprise me.


    MrMelGibson

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

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  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,222
    edited September 30
    It's 2017, a good looking game should be able to run on a toaster.  If not back off on the graphics and make it run on a toaster.

    Then again who am I to say ?
    Again, no miracles,  when making a PC based game Devs have to "guess" at what level of hardware tech their target audience will have at the time of launch and code accordingly. 

    I recall reading once Brad stating one mistake they made with Vanguard is in overestimating the playerbases Tech level which I can believe as it ran very poorly on my 3 year old high end gaming laptop even on lower settings.

    Today my Sager laptop is approaching 4 years old yet I haven't found a game yet it can't run well, but then again I haven't challenged it with SC or other high graphic games as I only play titles these days which are at least 6 months to a year post launch, preferably even longer.

    Wasn't  really Brads fault BTW, prior to WOW pretty much most players would buy new or upgrade their rigs to play the next new game, especially the graphics card.

    I bought a new PC to play L1, upgraded its graphics card to play DAOC, bought new PCs for my son and I for L2, and then WOW came, and to my pleasant surprise it would run decently on my work IBM laptop with its onboard video. 

    Blizzard targeted the lowest common denominator of hardware of the masses and it was a major contributor to making the game a huge success.

    So its a tricky balance, especially since most of these indies don't seem to have a clue (even if they have $150M in funding) on how to a create a proper delivery schedule and even come close to hitting it.


    Post edited by Kyleran on
    LackingMMOMrMelGibson

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - Screw off-grid PVE boosting changes

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Bluefield, WVMember UncommonPosts: 1,233
    It's 2017, a good looking game should be able to run on a toaster.  If not back off on the graphics and make it run on a toaster.

    Then again who am I to say ?


    I agree.

    In this day and age I will not upgrade all three of my computers just to play a game with my family.

    By all means, make ultra high definition available to those with cutting edge machines. For the rest of us, we need to be able to turn the graphics down enough to run on a $500 laptop with a semi-decent frame rate.

    If not, well, I still play EQ with my wife and daughter.

    MrMelGibson

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Tucson, AZMember UncommonPosts: 187
    yeah times have changed since Vanguard. Back then you needed a new pc to run it. Now you have a game with amazing graphics and think its out of your league then look at the requirements and you 3 yr old card is still golden. 
  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXMember RarePosts: 1,575
    @Kyleran, I wouldn't call Visionary Realms Inc an indie game developer.  I reserve that for those who have never worked on a commercial released game.  Let me start by saying I don't have any inside information on Visionary Realms.  But I know six of these seven guys, they have over 10 to 25 years each of experience developing AAA games.  Visionary Realms is a startup, not an indie.

    When six college students who have never worked a professional game development job in their life get together to make a game, that is indie development.  But when six department heads leave some of the top 5 studios, that is not indie.

    Blizzard didn't design for the lowest common denominator, it designed better than everyone else.

    @delete5230, I am not here to debug a game by  watching a few video.  All I will say is the problems you describe sounds more like Art department rather than Programming.
    GdemamiThunder073MrMelGibsonGriffbane

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  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIMember RarePosts: 3,570
    The latest gameplay footage I've seen shows the game has made significant progress in the graphics department. 
    SovrathThunder073deniterdrivendawnMrMelGibsonGriffbane

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember LegendaryPosts: 22,837
    Konfess said:
    @Kyleran, I wouldn't call Visionary Realms Inc an indie game developer.  I reserve that for those who have never worked on a commercial released game.  L
    Well, that's certainly your own made up definition and you are welcome to it but that's not what an "indie developer" is.

    It's a developer "usually small" but doesn't have to be, that creates a game without a publisher or a lot of resources.

    They are in fact an "Indie developer". Same with the folks at Camelot Unchained.

    @delete: at this point you should just walk away or learn to come to grips with the fact that "this is an independent developer without deep pockets". you and that other guy, can't remember who he is have to understand that though this will get better, you aren't going to get Final Fantasy IV or Black Desert (which still has pop-ins).

    Just like life, you can have anything you want but not everything you want.


    DullahanKyleranpantaroMrMelGibson



  • wandericawanderica clayton, NCMember UncommonPosts: 278
    I don't remember much about the specifics of Vanguard's engine.  I wasn't in to tech much at all back then.  I am now though.  Isn't Pantheon using the Unity engine?  That should eliminate many of the issues Vanguard had provided the art department can make it look good.  I remember reading (or at least skimming) something Brad wrote on the Pantheon forums about Vanguard's issues, and while I can't remember the specifics, he was at least aware of what went wrong, and is committed to not repeating them. 

    Vanguard just ran poorly on hardware at the time.  I don't think that will be the case with Pantheon.  I am more concerned with animations and textures.  Blizzard set the bar very high for animations in my book, and not even AoC with its mocap could match WoW's beautifully simple animations.  We'll see I guess, but I'll play it regardless.  I think Pantheon's gameplay should more than make up for the occasional low res texture or clunky animation.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,336
    Yeah, you have to completely redefine indie to exclude Visionary Realms from that category. Even going by industry experience, Brad was pretty much all they had for a while there.
    drivendawnMrMelGibson


  • DaderickDaderick UtahMember UncommonPosts: 48
    I see a lot of Vanguard in the current graphics as well. That's not necessarily bad, and a lot of what Vanguard did was pretty good.  I just hope it launches more polished than VG was.

    Either way, I'm sure excited for Pantheon.
    Thunder073Griffbane

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  • WarlyxWarlyx UnknowMember RarePosts: 2,324
    i remember Eq2 launch , ugh i was playing at the time with 512 ram , and old gpu , it took me like 4-5 mins to load every zone , it was a mesh , then upgraded later on and was fine.

    AoC i remember playing it on a toaster , it runned so badly >< , ditto for FFXIV 1.0.

    and yeah the worst offender were Vanguard and Dark and Light (the old one) ugh could barely play. Eq next barely playable too , Soe (DGC are the worst )

    WoW , Gw2 and some other mmopgs launched their games with good optimization and with the idea of letting every1 play.

    Now Pantheon graphics are "ok" at best , graphics are good (look at FFXIV :) ) , however Art > graphics , Gw2 for example , is by miles one of the best , the design of the levels and the amount of details and whatnot , it doesnt have top graphics but is pretty to look at .


  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,098
    Being totally technical all my life, I would assume it's a lot easer pumping out LARGE AMOUNTS content if graphics are made easier to work with.


    - Land mass, rolling hills, caves, keeps, castles houses, barns and stables.

    - NPCs, player characters, animation's, wildlife, monsters.

    - Situational animation such as traps, fire pits, glowing magical orbs, treasures.

    - Writing lore, designing quest (however this is handled). 

    - More time for UI such as dropdown boxes, hot bars and social panels and player abilities. 


    Who am I to say, but it seemed like the latest podcast showing graphics, V Realms had to stumble around to make it flow....... Why ?...... Graphics ! 
    Gdemami
  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLMember UncommonPosts: 1,112
    Ive been following this game now for awhile. I know in the play throughs they have shown on twitch and youtube.. Game seems to run Pretty smooth. Granted thats only with few players. But FPS seem stable 60s which isnt bad at all.
    Thunder073Griffbane
  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,796
    I wish they would provide hardware specs of the machines they are creating these streams on. What may be smooth on their system might be a CPU or GPU killer on other machines.

    Fortune stepped on me yesterday.  My nVidia GFX 650 TI went to the land of incomprehensible video problems, and I had to come off my wallet for a replacement, an nVidia GFX 1050 TI.  I'm at least less likely than I was at the start of the week to be technically unable to try any of the new games.

    If the new card lasts long enough for one of the games on the horizon to actually release, that is.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 10,768
    Mendel said:
    I wish they would provide hardware specs of the machines they are creating these streams on. What may be smooth on their system might be a CPU or GPU killer on other machines.

    Fortune stepped on me yesterday.  My nVidia GFX 650 TI went to the land of incomprehensible video problems, and I had to come off my wallet for a replacement, an nVidia GFX 1050 TI.  I'm at least less likely than I was at the start of the week to be technically unable to try any of the new games.

    If the new card lasts long enough for one of the games on the horizon to actually release, that is.
    I wouldn't be worried about that one, they have no resources for gfx demanding game.

    Bad coding and optimization is more likely to be an issue and that is where even powerful hardware comes short.
    Mendeldcutbi001
  • svannsvann san jose, CAMember UncommonPosts: 1,993
    Sometimes when a game runs poorly its not because its designed for too good of a machine, its just because it was designed poorly and no matter how good a machine you get its going to run poorly.

    As an example, you try running through Warsliks Woods in EQ1.  Even 17 years later its a lag fest. 
  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABMember RarePosts: 2,577
    If anyone who saw their last Alpha stream said this game is Vanguard + 10% ... I'd say they are suffering from brain damage.

    It's Alpha ... and it's looking damn good. It's only getting better as far as looks go.
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  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,955
    I'll be honest,i only ever watched their first stream and it looked real bad.That is why i prefer to NOT watch anything,i prefer to see the final product because sometimes i can get tuned off by early stuff and no it is not fair.

    I love graphics but unless it is total cartoon stuff it is not going to be a factor at all for myself.If animations look amateurish or worse,perhaps that could be a deal as well but i expect a decent looking product come release.

    Yes designed poorly will never allow a game to run smooth.That reason would be RUSHED and a poor game engine.Even the earliest unreal engine allowed a user to look at the total polygons on a map and determine what and where needs fixing.they should have a team that understands total bandwidth "graphical"that is needed and if the game delivers smooth polygons throughout.

    No matter what anyone says,i have seen it in every game,testing is never good enough,most games have been and still are  rushed out without proper testing.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,955
    I loved the EQ series and i would hope that most in the same boat realize that both EQ1/2 and VG seemed very similar with the same problems.I hope brad is not trying to rehash that same stuff,it will not go down well,those games had the most bugs i have ever seen in gaming,too bad i still loved those games.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAMember RarePosts: 2,213
    I think the graphics now are as good as they need to be. Time to work on those animations a bit more.

    image

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,336
    Mendel said:
    I wish they would provide hardware specs of the machines they are creating these streams on. What may be smooth on their system might be a CPU or GPU killer on other machines.

    Fortune stepped on me yesterday.  My nVidia GFX 650 TI went to the land of incomprehensible video problems, and I had to come off my wallet for a replacement, an nVidia GFX 1050 TI.  I'm at least less likely than I was at the start of the week to be technically unable to try any of the new games.

    If the new card lasts long enough for one of the games on the horizon to actually release, that is.
    They've talked about the specs of the machines they're running streams on before. Don't recall, but they weren't bleeding edge tech. They said they were achieving good frames on mainstream systems like i5 with a single nvidia 960.
    Mendeldcutbi001


  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,400
    Many of the systems sound good on paper and the graphics look solid enough but I'm more or less easy to please with graphics so long as the animations are tight and match what is being done. However, the most important thing is how everything flows together with a live group of gamers, so even though my interest keeps growing, I still have to look at it from the side until it gets closer to releasing.
    MrMelGibson
  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALMember RarePosts: 1,980
    They have made some pretty big strides in graphics over the past year. If they can continue like this going forward and improve the animations I think even more people will take this game seriously.
    MrMelGibson
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Bluefield, WVMember UncommonPosts: 1,233
    svann said:
    Sometimes when a game runs poorly its not because its designed for too good of a machine, its just because it was designed poorly and no matter how good a machine you get its going to run poorly.

    As an example, you try running through Warsliks Woods in EQ1.  Even 17 years later its a lag fest. 

    I run though Warsliks Woods with a toaster. Giant Fort is still one of my favorite low-level camps.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

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