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MMORPG Design Challenge - End Game
SirAgravaine
Member RarePosts: 520
I haven't posted one of these in awhile, and I'm not really sure they are all too popular, but I enjoy them (that's all that is important, right?)
So...without further ado and in the spirit of a true "armchair" game designer we continue the series of discussions about MMORPG design, focusing in on broad conceptual design topics & systems mechanics.
Previous Design Challenge discussions:
Death System
Combat System
Skill System
Topic: End Game
With Destiny 2's recent release, it seems appropriate for the next topic to focus on End Game, the 'golden years' of every grizzled MMORPG character.
Before we dive into our own ideas, philosophies, and crazy shenanigans on what we'd like to see or what we think is best for 'End Game', let's take care of the housekeeping before it gets messy and set up a solid definition of what we mean when we say 'End Game'.
End Game - the time period after the primary system of character progression has reached its final milestone and has taken on a distinctive from, often opening up different content systems, in-game activities, and secondary progression systems.
Some of you might jump on right away and say, there is no such thing as 'End Game' or there should be no such thing as 'End Game'. My response: well sir, I must ask you to please refrain from such nonsense.
Finally, as with previous threads, when the inspiration has struck, I may or may not post my own ideas on what 'End Game' would be in my perfect MMORPG.
As always,
Have Fun & Discuss
So...without further ado and in the spirit of a true "armchair" game designer we continue the series of discussions about MMORPG design, focusing in on broad conceptual design topics & systems mechanics.
Previous Design Challenge discussions:
Death System
Combat System
Skill System
Topic: End Game
With Destiny 2's recent release, it seems appropriate for the next topic to focus on End Game, the 'golden years' of every grizzled MMORPG character.
Before we dive into our own ideas, philosophies, and crazy shenanigans on what we'd like to see or what we think is best for 'End Game', let's take care of the housekeeping before it gets messy and set up a solid definition of what we mean when we say 'End Game'.
End Game - the time period after the primary system of character progression has reached its final milestone and has taken on a distinctive from, often opening up different content systems, in-game activities, and secondary progression systems.
Some of you might jump on right away and say, there is no such thing as 'End Game' or there should be no such thing as 'End Game'. My response: well sir, I must ask you to please refrain from such nonsense.
Finally, as with previous threads, when the inspiration has struck, I may or may not post my own ideas on what 'End Game' would be in my perfect MMORPG.
As always,
Have Fun & Discuss
Post edited by SirAgravaine on
Comments
If you want to require that the endgame has to open up new content, then sometimes the end of the tutorial can be the last big shift in the game. In that case, almost the entire game is endgame by your new definition.
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but creating good definitions sure is hard, isn't it?
Edit - nevermind, I think the new definiton is fitting enough. I hereby ban you from making further corrections without actually submitting a reasonably well-thought out response to the actual thread.
My personal definition of endgame is probably too cynical for your tastes: the endgame is what a company creates to try to get people to keep playing a game rather than quitting after they've already played through all of the interesting content. With that definition, it should be pretty obvious why there can't be a particularly good endgame, and the best endgame is the one that doesn't ruin non-endgame content. But it sure fits what passes for endgame in most MMORPGs that have one.
I liked the endgame of Guild Wars 1: flip to hard mode and try everything again at a higher difficulty level, but without getting super powerful gear that ruins everything on the easier difficulty level. Basically, you're done with progression, so stop worrying about it and go have fun for however long you find the content interesting.
A system of progression that serves as a gatekeeper to other content. This can be done either very literally (You can't do X until you have completed Y) or due to steep vertical progression "The boss regenerates 5000 health a second, the combined DPS of your party at your current level is 50... and he dodges all your attacks."
So that being said in designing my own MMO much of "endgame" would be incorporated into the general gameplay as the vertical progression would be somewhere between very limited and non-existant, and the only content gated behind other content would be things logically done that way. For instance some content specific certain organizations may be based on your rank in that organization.
Pretty much all forms of PvP would be something you could enjoyably participate in from day one as well as most forms of economic and social interaction. This would include the heart and soul of the game. Territorial control, building and managing businesses, villages, cities and kingdoms. Taking part in the political processes that help determine who rises into the highest offices (Be they more democratic or more violent) etc.
The one type of content that would really serve as endgame content is certain PvE things. For instance while the progression of player power would be more realistic if it even existed, certain dungeons would be designed to be very easy to complete, and others about on par with the capabilities of a fairly average party. However there would be some designed to push the skill level of experienced players to their limits. This would essentially be like going into a Halo game and setting the difficulty to legendary. Potentially anyone can do it and succeed but realistically only very experienced players are going to be able to complete the game at that difficulty level.
So "legendary" style dungeons would be the closest thing my MMO would have to an "endgame."
Obviously there's room for expansion and improvement, but it's a start.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Edit: Alternately, I could support a game that limited level progress per week, encouraging players to do minigame, sim, crafting, and similar activities during each week rather than hurrying to level up.
atm, mmorpg are "-rpg" just because there are some artificial walls to force you to grow some parameters.
For example, take a typical fantasy MMO with all the normal play. For one there shouldn't really be a "MAX LEVEL" but instead either levels mean less and less points to spend the higher you go or what not so you pretty much level off in power but still progress very slowly at higher levels.
But, your character IS NOT the only thing you can progress in. You can perhaps own land (like a house) but you can also own an entire village where other players put up houses, and then own/rule an entire city where real players are. The point is there is only so much "land" in the game and ther might be one top King who rules everything and you are constantly gaming to rule more land OR switch rulership to a bigger city. your characters skills are used in some POLITICAL way to accomplish this against other player. Which could mean defeating there armies, out maneuvering them politically, assasinating their NPC advisors/children, sabotaging whatever ever it is they do to keep thier rulership, cause riots ect.
What I'm saying is that the "End Game" is always there but its easier to do with a higher level character but can be engaged in at any time. Because its competitive over a limited number of a resource "land" its never really ending. Even if you achive the One True King, you have to hold onto it.
The end game is something you ease into as you level up, because its easier with a stronger character, and the end game is more and more PvP then the PvE you engaged in going up. Also, you don't have to engage in this PvP end game, conversely, if your character has political skills you can engage in it at early levels. You level 5 characters political skills might be higher than a level 50 fighters. And the thing is, if you do the skill system corectly, you CANT DO BOTH effectively so there is no #1 player really. Perfect MMO IMO
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
Then tie a quest generator that sets the player up for visiting other people's towns. And maybe a story that sets the players up as some type of teleporter.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Let's be perfectly honest and realistic: more people have continued playing games that were designed around a long-lasting end game (or post level-max progression system), such as World of Warcraft and EverQuest than ever played or continued to play games without it.
This design challenge is meant to focus your minds on what it takes to build a successful MMORPG (in your eyes), where success is measured by its active player-base and player-retention, as well as how fun it is.
As I said, I would eventually give my ideas on what a successful End Game is:
To me, End Game is about bringing all of the pieces together, and I tend to be in the "make End Game as seamless with the rest of the game as possible" camp. For those of you that said there shouldn't be an End Game, then I assume what you mean to say is that it shouldn't be obvious or different from the rest of the game. I can't completely disagree with that, but I will say that End Game offers the unique opportunity to tie together all of the game's elements into a cohesive and immersive experience (Raids, Dungeons, Harder Difficulties etc.). In fact, End Game can be analogous to that final level or that last boss in a game, and that is the spot where I think it shines best.
Where I think End Game fails is when a game world keeps expanding and they keep pushing that End Game further and further out, making previous content irrelevant or disregarded. However, my design philosophy on the MMORPG is different than the current model. Personally I feel that the next generation of MMORPGs needs to focus on level-less progression and put more emphasis on real-life tangible skill inside the game world. For that reason, I feel that End Game should be a culmination of the various skills that players have developed, and it should be dynamic and horizontal in its design, rather than built using vertical progression models.
For example, in an MMORPG world using this design approach, the End Game content could focus on an existent conflict, such as warring factions. The content could focus on different dynamic events that push the control of the map or different points of conflict from one point to another (PVE or PVP). This gives players a virtual hook to the 'Why' they continue to play, especially if this conflict encroaches on in-game property or resources they may own or control.
I guess the answer is, make the progression limitless, EVE has probably 30+ real life years of skill training, and as of yet no one alliance has ever managed to rule all of 0.0.
I do think those who say end game in EVE begins on day 1 aren't too far off the mark.
So yeah, I'm not interested in ever playing another MMORPG which has an end game, virtual worlds don't need one.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Basically, but not all MMORPGs have or should have levels. Basically, how does the game developer (in this case, us) manage the game after players have progressed through the bulk of the story/world/progression system. End Game is a way of managing this, call it what you will, it is a necessary element to game that has a definitive end. If it isn't there, then the game simply ends, not a very successful design.
Financially maybe, but design-wise no. If the game literally ends, with no activity beyond that dungeon, then that is a catastrophic failure of design.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"Exodus: Red Moon Rising
Release date: December 16, 2005
Red Moon Rising was split off from the "Kali" expansion in order to maintain a more regular patch schedule. It included many performance optimizations and updates to combat, research, and manufacturing gameplay. The expansion continued the focus on attracting new international players as four new "bloodlines" were introduced with Asian features and a boost in starting skills. Unicode support was also expanded from the chat system to game-wide. A major focus of the expansion was revamping existing ships and adding many additional ship classes. Twenty-three new Tech 2 ships were added including Exhumers, Force Recon cruisers, Command ships, Interdictors, and most notably the capital ships Carrier, Mothership, and Titan."
____________________________________
Titans and Motherships are still the most powerful ships in the game to date. So the last time EVE's "endgame" can be said to have expanded is 12 years ago. I don't really think broadening to abilities available to lower tier players counts as expansion of "endgame".
So the end game. Basically...
Gear grind by 99% as crafting; An example: Kill a dragon and craft an armor from the scales.
PVE reputation grind for basic(cosmetic) items through living world events(free mini expansions), items can be enhanced through crafting
Housing
Playing a merchant, teamster, farmer etc
Roleplaying events with other players and guilds
(Separate pvp servers for somekind of open world pvp and territory control)
End Game Content = The portion of the game that max leveled players/skills are granted access to more challenging content to progress their character beyond the limits of 'max level'.
I think there needs to be a Need for End Game Content, but the current approach is not the best approach towards this particular gameplay. What we see now in the genre, not pointing any fingers (WoW); that the game "doesn't truly begin until end game", which is somewhat true. It almost makes the journey to end game pointless.
The compliant that raiding or other aspects of gameplay is not accessible until endgame is a valid one. I don't believe that every aspect of the game should be accessible to the player at once in a level progression based game. Why? What is the point of grinding through levels and journey to reach max level (end game) if there is no reason to unlock various character/gameplay elements on the way?
To me, End Game simply equates to content that issues more challenges for the player to put to use their wisdom of the game world, their character, combat mechanics, ect at once to reap higher rewards.
If I invite my friend to play SMITE we will will hop into the same match together and be able to enjoyably play the game together. If I invite my friend to play StarCraft 2 we will hop into the same match together and be able to enjoyably play the game together. If I invite my friend to play ArcheAge I will tell him to level to max so I can take time out doing the things I enjoy doing to help them run dungeons to build gear so that he can get out and enjoyably PvP with us sometimes when he isn't grinding for gold (I've brought 3 friends into that game. All 3 quit before they ever got to do anything together with me. Actually no... 6 friends. 3 who started with us on a new server but then fell behind my progress and quit.)
I want more MMOs that function like the former. 95% of the game content is accessible and enjoyable to everyone at every level of progression. You don't have to reach an "endgame" before you get to have fun with other people who have done the same.