You also clearly have difficulty understanding that a preference for something does not equate with an inability to do something else. When in the mood I thoroughly enjoy some Overwatch or Battlefield. Your continued attempt to belittle people because of a PREFERENCE speaks volumes about you.
This thread was about people's preferences and if you can't handle the fact that other folks will have different preferences than you without the lame attempts at insults you should probably do a self-evaluation.
The fact that you don't know the difference between reaction time and knowledge, preparation, and practice is what clearly demonstrates your inability. People who understand and have ability realize that being good at an MMO and video games in general is determined a hell of a lot more than how fast you can press buttons.
So yeah, when a preference is driven by the fact your a baddie because you don't try, I'm going to judge you for it. You may hate being judged but you've given me the information I need to do it accurately.
I should make note that gear is a driving force behind players,numbers,if there was no elite gear these games would likely die off badly.This actually points to the sad reality that people are not playing for the FUN or the experience but more so they are playing for superficial reasons.
I have been striving to NOT support these lame weak rpg designs,i want to see the industry move closer to a role playing experience than instance dungeon raids with group finders.Thing is i want to play a rpg not some instance generator with loot tables.
I dunno about that I played Guildwars for a rather long time and I certainly wasn't the only one.
Too much gear progression is more or less bribing the players with gear to keep playing instead of actually making the game so fun people want to play it anyways.
I think most MMOs gone too far with gear, no pen and paper game is even close the constant upgrades you get in MMOs. And yes, finding a cool upgrade is fun but it is less fun the more often you upgrade it.
Some gear upgrades should certainly be in the games but I think the constant gear drops is way too much, make it rarer and more special instead of something every ither mob drops and put the need to upgrade about a tenth of waht most modern MMOs use.
And also make good gear last longer, before endgame a good gear will last me a couple of hours at best which makes me far less interested in it then I was just 12 years ago where a good upgrade lasted 5 times as long. Then people actually bothered running a bit tougher dungeons before levelcap to have good gear, now they don't care anymore.
Not sure if it has been said before, but any MMORPG, even heavily gear dependent ones, also rely heavily on player skill. Nobody can deny that WoW relies quite heavily on gear, yet there are people in raids that do crap damage and die all the time while others do double the damage and almost never die, with exactly the same gear. That's player skill, and I think all games rely at least 50% on it.
Yes but often does the player skill not really matter there until raids and some end game heroic dungeons. Before that anyone with the right gear will do fine even if they play very poorly.
And the percentage of players even bothering to raid is low, very low.
Not sure if it has been said before, but any MMORPG, even heavily gear dependent ones, also rely heavily on player skill. Nobody can deny that WoW relies quite heavily on gear, yet there are people in raids that do crap damage and die all the time while others do double the damage and almost never die, with exactly the same gear. That's player skill, and I think all games rely at least 50% on it.
The range in which skill plays any significant factor is exceptionally limited though. For your average MMO a level disparity of ten makes it literally impossible to overcome a foe by virtue of the fact that your damage output after being filtered through their defences is dramatically lower than their health regeneration.
Once you get to gear grinding the disparity slows down slightly but for instance in ArcheAge, an equipment score of 2000 can enable a magic DPS class to kill someone in cloth (highest magic defense armor) a shield (more magic defense) and purge the purge buff (also high magic defence) with a single use of God's Whip (A high damage magic AoE).
Now there is a range in which gear is at fairly competitive levels and skill is the primary determining factor but the vast majority of fights happen outside that range. And people use that tiny minority of skill based fights to do things like this and then say it's because of how skilled they are.
The fact is that terrible raid player will leech off the success of the rest of the raid until they have the gear to do more DPS than a raid player who actually tries but hasn't played as long. And that's really the point IMO.
This is because, for your average or bad player that can easily be outdone / beaten by a skilled player, it's annoying to them that, at some point, their capabilities will peak and there's nothing they can do to improve beyond more skilled players. For many, it's too much to bear to know that you suck.
Not sure if it has been said before, but any MMORPG, even heavily gear dependent ones, also rely heavily on player skill. Nobody can deny that WoW relies quite heavily on gear, yet there are people in raids that do crap damage and die all the time while others do double the damage and almost never die, with exactly the same gear. That's player skill, and I think all games rely at least 50% on it.
The range in which skill plays any significant factor is exceptionally limited though. For your average MMO a level disparity of ten makes it literally impossible to overcome a foe by virtue of the fact that your damage output after being filtered through their defences is dramatically lower than their health regeneration.
Once you get to gear grinding the disparity slows down slightly but for instance in ArcheAge, an equipment score of 2000 can enable a magic DPS class to kill someone in cloth (highest magic defense armor) a shield (more magic defense) and purge the purge buff (also high magic defence) with a single use of God's Whip (A high damage magic AoE).
Now there is a range in which gear is at fairly competitive levels and skill is the primary determining factor but the vast majority of fights happen outside that range. And people use that tiny minority of skill based fights to do things like this and then say it's because of how skilled they are.
The fact is that terrible raid player will leech off the success of the rest of the raid until they have the gear to do more DPS than a raid player who actually tries but hasn't played as long. And that's really the point IMO.
This is because, for your average or bad player that can easily be outdone / beaten by a skilled player, it's annoying to them that, at some point, their capabilities will peak and there's nothing they can do to improve beyond more skilled players. For many, it's too much to bear to know that you suck.
That sums the whole issue up quite nicely.
Using simple math, if the top 25% are skilled players then 75% are unskilled or suck.
Guess which group has the greater revenue potential if they have at least an illusion of having a chance to prevail.
I've found in gear dependent games it is skilled players (or cash shop buyers) who are willing to put in the time (grind) and likely spend the money to prevail.
It would appear to me you are unwilling to devote effort to grinding or spending and might be the more "lazy" gamer.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've found in gear dependent games it is skilled players (or cash shop buyers) who are willing to put in the time (grind) and likely spend the money to prevail.
The problem here is that, in games that have microtransactions, the line blurs between who is skilled and who is simply more willing to part with their money. One might call it an equalizer, one might call it engaging to those left of the bell-curve, and one might call it a nuisance to those on the right of the bell-curve. It's all a matter of perspective.
My own perspective is that I refuse to play PtW games. Granted, PtW appeals to a larger crowd (essentially the entire bell-curve), it forgoes the spirit of competitive darwinism by enabling the lesser-skilled to match or outdo those with talent. I know this is an exaggeration, but people would throw their arms up if they did this in the Olympics (please don't let this go down a rabbit-hole of steroids and personal trainers, etc). The point is, those of us that buy into the illusion of skilled competition are immensely annoyed when we realize someone shelled out a few benjamins to, so to say, get on mah level!
Just another matter of perspective, I suppose. In situations like this, who really loses? The guy willing to spend hundreds of dollars on not-sucking? The skilled guy willing to engage with a game that caters to its audience in this way? The company that's profiting like crazy off of this business model? We could contemplate forever and reach no conclusion, because perspectives will vary. I say if you don't like a game's monetization model, don't participate -- especially when you consider that your mere participation (even if you don't spend on microtransactions) is granting the company and other players an audience. A non-gaming example: Facebook.
This is one of the reasons why, as cooperative gaming shifts, and I get older, I find myself playing solo games more often. Ok, end rant.
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
See, you see it as about you. You said your character is your representation of you. You post a ton because it is about you. You you you.
I bring a ton. I have been Role Playing since 74 and have more experience with it than you. We are playing characters. While it is true that we drive the input values, you have to be and ego maniacal narcissist to make it "about you".
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Not sure if it has been said before, but any MMORPG, even heavily gear dependent ones, also rely heavily on player skill. Nobody can deny that WoW relies quite heavily on gear, yet there are people in raids that do crap damage and die all the time while others do double the damage and almost never die, with exactly the same gear. That's player skill, and I think all games rely at least 50% on it.
Yes but often does the player skill not really matter there until raids and some end game heroic dungeons. Before that anyone with the right gear will do fine even if they play very poorly.
And the percentage of players even bothering to raid is low, very low.
It's much higher than pre-Lich King when you had only one raid mode. With the raid finder, almost everyone raids, it's no longer a 5% story. And trust me... some even die a lot and suck in raid finder.
This said, with GW2 and now ESO, I'm spoiled when it comes to player skill in combat. Being able to dodge and parry adds a whole new level. Yeah, your stats matter, but a skilled low geared player will do better than a full max epic bad one. We are back to Asheron's Call with those two games, and it's a good feeling.
I ran into this once I hit HoT content in GW2- or, rather, it ran into me at full tilt.
You must use your dodges competently in GW2 to avoid some devastating status effects inflicted by mobs, specifically if you're running a DPS build. Standing still and spamming skills will get you killed quick. Pocket Raptors are harmless, until you get a full pack of them chasing you all at once.
Using simple math, if the top 25% are skilled players then 75% are unskilled or suck.
Guess which group has the greater revenue potential if they have at least an illusion of having a chance to prevail.
Games that are not level / gear dependent. Have you not noticed that MMOs are consistently been losing out to MOBAs? Have you noticed that all of the top MOBAs start people at an even power level at the beginning of each match?
Your theory has been proven wrong over and over and over for the past few years and the sooner MMO developers realize that, the sooner they can stop losing sub numbers hand over fist.
Probably the first error in your line of thought is assuming that no-lifers bring any more revenue than casual players, and that casual players are more daunted by the need to build skills than the need to grind for a thousands of hours.
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
See, you see it as about you. You said your character is your representation of you. You post a ton because it is about you. You you you.
I bring a ton. I have been Role Playing since 74 and have more experience with it than you. We are playing characters. While it is true that we drive the input values, you have to be and ego maniacal narcissist to make it "about you".
No you just have to like being yourself more than you want to escape to being some other person. There is a difference between a strong sense of self-worth and narcissism.
I don't make a hobby of escaping who I am because I like who I am. So I choose to use RPGs as a way to experience things I can't IRL, but I do it as characters who are representations of myself. My partner of three plus years also bases her character on herself, so that would mean she is a narcissist too? Given narcissists aren't supposed to be able to hold stable relationships unless their partner is utterly submissive to their will, I guess that proves your whole theory wrong.
You also clearly have difficulty understanding that a preference for something does not equate with an inability to do something else. When in the mood I thoroughly enjoy some Overwatch or Battlefield. Your continued attempt to belittle people because of a PREFERENCE speaks volumes about you.
This thread was about people's preferences and if you can't handle the fact that other folks will have different preferences than you without the lame attempts at insults you should probably do a self-evaluation.
The fact that you don't know the difference between reaction time and knowledge, preparation, and practice is what clearly demonstrates your inability. People who understand and have ability realize that being good at an MMO and video games in general is determined a hell of a lot more than how fast you can press buttons.
So yeah, when a preference is driven by the fact your a baddie because you don't try, I'm going to judge you for it. You may hate being judged but you've given me the information I need to do it accurately.
You had me at "baddie"
LOL
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
See, you see it as about you. You said your character is your representation of you. You post a ton because it is about you. You you you.
I bring a ton. I have been Role Playing since 74 and have more experience with it than you. We are playing characters. While it is true that we drive the input values, you have to be and ego maniacal narcissist to make it "about you".
You have perfectly captured the difference.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
See, you see it as about you. You said your character is your representation of you. You post a ton because it is about you. You you you.
I bring a ton. I have been Role Playing since 74 and have more experience with it than you. We are playing characters. While it is true that we drive the input values, you have to be and ego maniacal narcissist to make it "about you".
You have perfectly captured the difference.
Yeah, as I read Eldrians posts I thought we play for so very different reasons.
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, as I read Eldrians posts I thought we play for so very different reasons.
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
I've actually been a healer on every character I've ever max leveled except my loremaster in LotRO. (Which was built for CC/Support)
I play for enjoyment too but being good is part of the enjoyment. I like to help people too, and end up in an anti-griefing focused guild (or leading one) in most games I play, but I can't help people from a position of weakness.
Unfortunately in most MMOs I find that moving beyond a position of weakness entails doing mind numbingly boring tasks over and over and over and over until my stats are good enough to compete, while outside MMOs it just means getting my keybinds right and practicing.
Yeah, as I read Eldrians posts I thought we play for so very different reasons.
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
Of course. I don't see why i can't enjoy entertainment products as I see fit.
BTW, isn't that what you think too? The only difference is that you care about other players, and they are pretty much just NPCs to me.
It is certainly your prerogative to care about other players. However, you cannot ask for reciprocation. No one is under any obligation to play your way in an online game.
I believe in player skill, but also having gear checks every once in a while. What I do believe more than anything is that there should be an achievable ceiling for the majority of players to be on level playing field. Never ending 1/1million power creep has proven to be stupid and detrimental to long term server health.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Yes but often does the player skill not really matter there until raids and some end game heroic dungeons. Before that anyone with the right gear will do fine even if they play very poorly.
And the percentage of players even bothering to raid is low, very low.
It's much higher than pre-Lich King when you had only one raid mode. With the raid finder, almost everyone raids, it's no longer a 5% story. And trust me... some even die a lot and suck in raid finder.
This said, with GW2 and now ESO, I'm spoiled when it comes to player skill in combat. Being able to dodge and parry adds a whole new level. Yeah, your stats matter, but a skilled low geared player will do better than a full max epic bad one. We are back to Asheron's Call with those two games, and it's a good feeling.
Oh, yes. I heard the numbers doubled but even if it trippled the numbers are not that impressive, most people still don't raid.
Dodging and parrying is one way to implement player skill, but I feel that both GW2 and ESO could better themselves in the strategy part. Not that I played much ESO (so I could be wrong there) but GW2s mechanic to have the players stand in a pile to get the maximum buffs should be improved and make people move more tactical during combat.
I would like to see things like formations (shield walls for instance), more tactical terrain (trick your enemy to put his foot in the swamp or pick the perfect archery spot) and things like that.
Games like GW2 and ESO allow us to move in a new way during combat, there is a lot more they can do with that.
With more traditional MMOs I would like a better focus on timing, using the right skill at the right time to win the day and positioning certainly should be more useful there as well.
Yeah, as I read Eldrians posts I thought we play for so very different reasons.
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
Of course. I don't see why i can't enjoy entertainment products as I see fit.
BTW, isn't that what you think too? The only difference is that you care about other players, and they are pretty much just NPCs to me.
It is certainly your prerogative to care about other players. However, you cannot ask for reciprocation. No one is under any obligation to play your way in an online game.
No, there's very little in your line of reasoning i can fathom without turning to psychology textbooks.
I suspect you are one of those drivers who will zoom past a long line of cars and then cut in at the last second. I don't understand those people either.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, as I read Eldrians posts I thought we play for so very different reasons.
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
Of course. I don't see why i can't enjoy entertainment products as I see fit.
BTW, isn't that what you think too? The only difference is that you care about other players, and they are pretty much just NPCs to me.
It is certainly your prerogative to care about other players. However, you cannot ask for reciprocation. No one is under any obligation to play your way in an online game.
No, there's very little in your line of reasoning i can fathom without turning to psychology textbooks.
I suspect you are one of those drivers who will zoom past a long line of cars and then cut in at the last second. I don't understand those people either.
I think the Brits have a good expression for it.
Bad form.
That is because you make the erroneous assumption that everyone needs to be like you. A mistake I do not make. It is pretty easy to see that some people are just mean, some are always nice, some are in-between, depending on their mood.
Surely, a psy textbook (or better yet, scientific paper) will help. But individual heterogeneity is pretty much a well documented phenomenon in behavioral science.
Actually i don't do the car zooming thing much ... certainly not out of concern of my fellow man. I worry someone pull a gun because of road rage. In America, particularly a red state, you need to be careful.
Finally, don't get me wrong. There is a social contract with consequences. I always play nice at the work place and genuinely make friends. But playing online games for 20 min? I wouldn't bother. i bet you can find a paper to understand that.
From the first games I ever saw, Superfly and Oregon Trail on DOS era computers, I vastly preferred turn based/character based mechanics. I certainly don't mind the occasional skill based stint; Halo, WoW, ... That seems to be about it actually, hm. Watched brothers (and Mom!) beat Mario and Zelda, didn't get invested until we bought Final Fantasy.
Actually i don't do the car zooming thing much ... certainly not out of concern of my fellow man. I worry someone pull a gun because of road rage. In America, particularly a red state, you need to be careful.
Hearing this makes me proud to support the 2nd Amendment.
The 2nd Amendment, keeping Nauri from running down children since 2017.
From the first games I ever saw, Superfly and Oregon Trail on DOS era computers, I vastly preferred turn based/character based mechanics. I certainly don't mind the occasional skill based stint; Halo, WoW, ... That seems to be about it actually, hm. Watched brothers (and Mom!) beat Mario and Zelda, didn't get invested until we bought Final Fantasy.
Prefer to to save my twitch skillz for typing
Turned based games can be as skill based as action combat, not the same skill but even in the old classics like Pool of radiance and Champions of Krynn player skill made a huge difference.
Character based is when you win because you have superior gear and stats, skill based is when you win because you are faster and/or smarter and win because of that.
This thread is based on player ignorance. What players call "Gear Dependency and rotation" is the "BOTH" chose in this poll. Because that mechanic is the only one that takes into account player skill.
What players often call "Player Skill" is nothing more than exploitation of bugs, lag and hardware, not skill. If anything deserves to be called Pay To Win it is so called "Player Skill." When so called skill games are made free of exploration bugs, so called "Skilled Players" stop play. Because their skill, vanishes with the bugs. This is why most so called "Player Skill" games can't be sold with out these bugs.
Bravo to the OP for exploiting player ignorance. If players only knew how dumb we have to make so called "Player Skill" games so that they will play them.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
This thread is based on player ignorance. What players call "Gear Dependency and rotation" is the "BOTH" chose in this poll. Because that mechanic is the only one that takes into account player skill.
What players often call "Player Skill" is nothing more than exploitation of bugs, lag and hardware, not skill. If anything deserves to be called Pay To Win it is so called "Player Skill." When so called skill games are made free of exploration bugs, so called "Skilled Players" stop play. Because their skill, vanishes with the bugs. This is why most so called "Player Skill" games can't be sold with out these bugs.
Bravo to the OP for exploiting player ignorance. If players only knew how dumb we have to make so called "Player Skill" games so that they will play them.
While that is true in some case it isn't true in others. Guildwars for instance had very few bugs and were skill driven.
Any game where a vet in bad gear can beat a new player in good gear have some degree of player skill involved, when gear makes difference enough so that is impossible it have no player skill.
There are certainly other factors that adds to the equation, both cheaters/exploiters and the powergap between levels (not to mention the effect of RMT shops) so the question is more complicated then the poll suggests but there certainly is more to player skill then you say.
I think OP means the main thing that leads to a win in battle though. Most MMOs have gear and level as the most important factor to win a battle while most FPS games have player skill.
And player skill for that matter is not just a single thing, it is reflexes, tactics and experience. Some games just mean you need to be fast or aim great while others instead is about timing and using the right tactics against a specific opponent.
This thread is based on player ignorance. What players call "Gear Dependency and rotation" is the "BOTH" chose in this poll. Because that mechanic is the only one that takes into account player skill.
What players often call "Player Skill" is nothing more than exploitation of bugs, lag and hardware, not skill. If anything deserves to be called Pay To Win it is so called "Player Skill." When so called skill games are made free of exploration bugs, so called "Skilled Players" stop play. Because their skill, vanishes with the bugs. This is why most so called "Player Skill" games can't be sold with out these bugs.
Bravo to the OP for exploiting player ignorance. If players only knew how dumb we have to make so called "Player Skill" games so that they will play them.
I think you're misconstruing the difference. Player skill is simply wisdom. What to do and what not to do in various situational gameplay, whether that is PVE or PVP. Complete Gear Dependency is where gear can give you the upper hand in a situation regardless if the player knows everything to defeat you, or the content if he simply doesn't have the gear.
Comments
So yeah, when a preference is driven by the fact your a baddie because you don't try, I'm going to judge you for it. You may hate being judged but you've given me the information I need to do it accurately.
Too much gear progression is more or less bribing the players with gear to keep playing instead of actually making the game so fun people want to play it anyways.
I think most MMOs gone too far with gear, no pen and paper game is even close the constant upgrades you get in MMOs. And yes, finding a cool upgrade is fun but it is less fun the more often you upgrade it.
Some gear upgrades should certainly be in the games but I think the constant gear drops is way too much, make it rarer and more special instead of something every ither mob drops and put the need to upgrade about a tenth of waht most modern MMOs use.
And also make good gear last longer, before endgame a good gear will last me a couple of hours at best which makes me far less interested in it then I was just 12 years ago where a good upgrade lasted 5 times as long. Then people actually bothered running a bit tougher dungeons before levelcap to have good gear, now they don't care anymore.
And the percentage of players even bothering to raid is low, very low.
Once you get to gear grinding the disparity slows down slightly but for instance in ArcheAge, an equipment score of 2000 can enable a magic DPS class to kill someone in cloth (highest magic defense armor) a shield (more magic defense) and purge the purge buff (also high magic defence) with a single use of God's Whip (A high damage magic AoE).
Now there is a range in which gear is at fairly competitive levels and skill is the primary determining factor but the vast majority of fights happen outside that range. And people use that tiny minority of skill based fights to do things like this and then say it's because of how skilled they are.
The fact is that terrible raid player will leech off the success of the rest of the raid until they have the gear to do more DPS than a raid player who actually tries but hasn't played as long. And that's really the point IMO.
That sums the whole issue up quite nicely.
Guess which group has the greater revenue potential if they have at least an illusion of having a chance to prevail.
I've found in gear dependent games it is skilled players (or cash shop buyers) who are willing to put in the time (grind) and likely spend the money to prevail.
It would appear to me you are unwilling to devote effort to grinding or spending and might be the more "lazy" gamer.
See how this works?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My own perspective is that I refuse to play PtW games. Granted, PtW appeals to a larger crowd (essentially the entire bell-curve), it forgoes the spirit of competitive darwinism by enabling the lesser-skilled to match or outdo those with talent. I know this is an exaggeration, but people would throw their arms up if they did this in the Olympics (please don't let this go down a rabbit-hole of steroids and personal trainers, etc). The point is, those of us that buy into the illusion of skilled competition are immensely annoyed when we realize someone shelled out a few benjamins to, so to say, get on mah level!
Just another matter of perspective, I suppose. In situations like this, who really loses? The guy willing to spend hundreds of dollars on not-sucking? The skilled guy willing to engage with a game that caters to its audience in this way? The company that's profiting like crazy off of this business model? We could contemplate forever and reach no conclusion, because perspectives will vary. I say if you don't like a game's monetization model, don't participate -- especially when you consider that your mere participation (even if you don't spend on microtransactions) is granting the company and other players an audience. A non-gaming example: Facebook.
This is one of the reasons why, as cooperative gaming shifts, and I get older, I find myself playing solo games more often. Ok, end rant.
See, you see it as about you. You said your character is your representation of you. You post a ton because it is about you. You you you.
I bring a ton. I have been Role Playing since 74 and have more experience with it than you. We are playing characters. While it is true that we drive the input values, you have to be and ego maniacal narcissist to make it "about you".
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You must use your dodges competently in GW2 to avoid some devastating status effects inflicted by mobs, specifically if you're running a DPS build. Standing still and spamming skills will get you killed quick. Pocket Raptors are harmless, until you get a full pack of them chasing you all at once.
Your theory has been proven wrong over and over and over for the past few years and the sooner MMO developers realize that, the sooner they can stop losing sub numbers hand over fist.
Probably the first error in your line of thought is assuming that no-lifers bring any more revenue than casual players, and that casual players are more daunted by the need to build skills than the need to grind for a thousands of hours.
I don't make a hobby of escaping who I am because I like who I am. So I choose to use RPGs as a way to experience things I can't IRL, but I do it as characters who are representations of myself. My partner of three plus years also bases her character on herself, so that would mean she is a narcissist too? Given narcissists aren't supposed to be able to hold stable relationships unless their partner is utterly submissive to their will, I guess that proves your whole theory wrong.
LOL
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You have perfectly captured the difference.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm far more interested in having a good time, especially if I can help others while doing so.
I'm guessing Eldrian believes the best way to help his team to is be the best he can personally be whereas for me its equally important (and perhaps more so) to assist other members of my team, likely why I favor support roles.
Narius will call both of us chumps because for him only his goals matter.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I play for enjoyment too but being good is part of the enjoyment. I like to help people too, and end up in an anti-griefing focused guild (or leading one) in most games I play, but I can't help people from a position of weakness.
Unfortunately in most MMOs I find that moving beyond a position of weakness entails doing mind numbingly boring tasks over and over and over and over until my stats are good enough to compete, while outside MMOs it just means getting my keybinds right and practicing.
BTW, isn't that what you think too? The only difference is that you care about other players, and they are pretty much just NPCs to me.
It is certainly your prerogative to care about other players. However, you cannot ask for reciprocation. No one is under any obligation to play your way in an online game.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dodging and parrying is one way to implement player skill, but I feel that both GW2 and ESO could better themselves in the strategy part. Not that I played much ESO (so I could be wrong there) but GW2s mechanic to have the players stand in a pile to get the maximum buffs should be improved and make people move more tactical during combat.
I would like to see things like formations (shield walls for instance), more tactical terrain (trick your enemy to put his foot in the swamp or pick the perfect archery spot) and things like that.
Games like GW2 and ESO allow us to move in a new way during combat, there is a lot more they can do with that.
With more traditional MMOs I would like a better focus on timing, using the right skill at the right time to win the day and positioning certainly should be more useful there as well.
I suspect you are one of those drivers who will zoom past a long line of cars and then cut in at the last second. I don't understand those people either.
I think the Brits have a good expression for it.
Bad form.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Surely, a psy textbook (or better yet, scientific paper) will help. But individual heterogeneity is pretty much a well documented phenomenon in behavioral science.
Actually i don't do the car zooming thing much ... certainly not out of concern of my fellow man. I worry someone pull a gun because of road rage. In America, particularly a red state, you need to be careful.
Finally, don't get me wrong. There is a social contract with consequences. I always play nice at the work place and genuinely make friends. But playing online games for 20 min? I wouldn't bother. i bet you can find a paper to understand that.
Prefer to to save my twitch skillz for typing
The 2nd Amendment, keeping Nauri from running down children since 2017.
Character based is when you win because you have superior gear and stats, skill based is when you win because you are faster and/or smarter and win because of that.
What players often call "Player Skill" is nothing more than exploitation of bugs, lag and hardware, not skill. If anything deserves to be called Pay To Win it is so called "Player Skill." When so called skill games are made free of exploration bugs, so called "Skilled Players" stop play. Because their skill, vanishes with the bugs. This is why most so called "Player Skill" games can't be sold with out these bugs.
Bravo to the OP for exploiting player ignorance. If players only knew how dumb we have to make so called "Player Skill" games so that they will play them.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Any game where a vet in bad gear can beat a new player in good gear have some degree of player skill involved, when gear makes difference enough so that is impossible it have no player skill.
There are certainly other factors that adds to the equation, both cheaters/exploiters and the powergap between levels (not to mention the effect of RMT shops) so the question is more complicated then the poll suggests but there certainly is more to player skill then you say.
I think OP means the main thing that leads to a win in battle though. Most MMOs have gear and level as the most important factor to win a battle while most FPS games have player skill.
And player skill for that matter is not just a single thing, it is reflexes, tactics and experience. Some games just mean you need to be fast or aim great while others instead is about timing and using the right tactics against a specific opponent.