Character skill Player: I attack the Goblin Chieftain with my sword. DM: You are a highly skilled warrior. Roll 1d20. Player: Rolls 15 DM: You hit the Chieftain and slice a deep gash in his side.
Player Skill Player: I attack the Goblin Chieftain with my sword. DM: OK, pick up the practice sword off the table. John, you stand on that side with this big club. When Player comes to attack you wack him on the head. Player: But my character is a highly skilled warrior... and John is 6'7" 290 and is going to beat the shit out of me in real life... DM: This is a player skill game...
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Player: "I go running into the center of the goblin caves, straight up to the goblin chieftain and attack him."
DM: "You set off 5 traps taking a total of 100 damage. When your turn is over the goblins pelt you with javelins for another 50 damage. You are dead."
Player: "Wait no! My character's intelligence was 20. He would have come up with a better plan!"
DM: "Well, that's what you said you did. So you're dead."
In our D&D group the DM likes to tell us after every encounter how high above our CR it was and how badly we were supposed to die. It's our strategies and tactics that keep seeing us win every time.
Different kind of skill, but not even in D&D do your characters just play themselves.
Yet a DM worth his salt would have rolled a chance for a high intelligence or wisdom character to glean some insight about the encounter, despite the skill of the player. The same if you had an extremely unintelligent character, rolls had to be made to determine if you could even come up with your tactic in the first place or if you had low dex, you'd roll to stumble....etc.
I consider a mix of both character and player skill to be the best as it represents both your character that you are "role playing" as well as your own intelligence and skill. Although I had several DM's who insisted I roleplay my character's stats strictly.
As to the topic, I prefer a nice mix of player skill and gear dependence. I believe in reward systems that have meaning and if that includes gear, then gear should have meaning as well.
Most DMs will force you to roleplay your characters low mental stats. For instance you can't be a 6 Int / 6 Charisma full orc who's always coming up with all the clever strategies and figuring ways to talk your way out of every situation.
However I've never seen high int/wisdom characters go beyond occasional int/wisdom checks for some advise. If you are an average intelligence player with some stacked int wizard the DM doesn't sit there and draw out a detailed battle plan that will go off without hitch for you even though Int 20 translates to your character standing alongside the greatest human minds to ever exist and that's realistically how it should go down. Especially since you can get like 30 on some ability scores and have a character more wise, intelligent, or charismatic than could ever conceivably exist.
Ultimately if you decide you kick in the door without checking for traps, you kick in the door without checking for traps. Doesn't matter if you are 30 int and wisdom. Ultimately if you decided to tell the king to shove it and whip out your sword to kill him, you tell the king to shove it, doesn't matter if your charisma and wisdom are 30.
And that's ultimately why we play these games. If I could just all my points into mental stats and have my characters do everything perfectly with no input needed by me, I wouldn't play the game. Because there would be no function for me as a player.
Books are about following a character with no input involved. Movies are about watching a character with no input involved.
In every decent game ever made Player Input > Character Stats.
I think Slapshot and others are forgetting that RPG stand for Role-Playing GAME. In a game your avatar is your representation in the game world. Not a replacement for your ability to think and act.
Player: "I go running into the center of the goblin caves, straight up to the goblin chieftain and attack him."
DM: "You set off 5 traps taking a total of 100 damage. When your turn is over the goblins pelt you with javelins for another 50 damage. You are dead."
Player: "Wait no! My character's intelligence was 20. He would have come up with a better plan!"
DM: "Well, that's what you said you did. So you're dead."
In our D&D group the DM likes to tell us after every encounter how high above our CR it was and how badly we were supposed to die. It's our strategies and tactics that keep seeing us win every time.
Different kind of skill, but not even in D&D do your characters just play themselves.
Yet a DM worth his salt would have rolled a chance for a high intelligence or wisdom character to glean some insight about the encounter, despite the skill of the player. The same if you had an extremely unintelligent character, rolls had to be made to determine if you could even come up with your tactic in the first place or if you had low dex, you'd roll to stumble....etc.
I consider a mix of both character and player skill to be the best as it represents both your character that you are "role playing" as well as your own intelligence and skill. Although I had several DM's who insisted I roleplay my character's stats strictly.
As to the topic, I prefer a nice mix of player skill and gear dependence. I believe in reward systems that have meaning and if that includes gear, then gear should have meaning as well.
Most DMs will force you to roleplay your characters low mental stats. For instance you can't be a 6 Int / 6 Charisma full orc who's always coming up with all the clever strategies and figuring ways to talk your way out of every situation.
However I've never seen high int/wisdom characters go beyond occasional int/wisdom checks for some advise. If you are an average intelligence player with some stacked int wizard the DM doesn't sit there and draw out a detailed battle plan that will go off without hitch for you even though Int 20 translates to your character standing alongside the greatest human minds to ever exist and that's realistically how it should go down. Especially since you can get like 30 on some ability scores and have a character more wise, intelligent, or charismatic than could ever conceivably exist.
Ultimately if you decide you kick in the door without checking for traps, you kick in the door without checking for traps. Doesn't matter if you are 30 int and wisdom. Ultimately if you decided to tell the king to shove it and whip out your sword to kill him, you tell the king to shove it, doesn't matter if your charisma and wisdom are 30.
And that's ultimately why we play these games. If I could just all my points into mental stats and have my characters do everything perfectly with no input needed by me, I wouldn't play the game. Because there would be no function for me as a player.
Books are about following a character with no input involved. Movies are about watching a character with no input involved.
In every decent game ever made Player Input > Character Stats.
I think Slapshot and others are forgetting that RPG stand for Role-Playing GAME. In a game your avatar is your representation in the game world. Not a replacement for your ability to think and act.
People like you are thinking that it is about your selfworth and ego. It is about you and your "skillz" thinking or otherwise. It is just a game.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
And people like you just need the game to revolve around your character's skills because you bring nothing to the table as a player. You just want your participation trophy.
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
No... there are different types of games. If I want MY skills to count I load up Overwatch or Battlefield. In a character driven RPG I want my characters skills to determine the results as much as possible. Sorry if you have difficulty accepting that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I mean I understand that there are people like you. There is a game I played for a bit on my phone a while back where I actually could set my character to auto-run while he actually went to the quest points by himself and killed the enemies by himself while I literally did nothing but sit back and watch. (Needless to say I uninstalled it the same day I downloaded it.)
I enjoy RPGs. I enjoy creating a character who fulfills a role in another setting. Most of all I enjoy customizing that character and creating it the way that I want it. But at the end of the day I want that character to serve as an extension of myself. I always put elements of my own personality into my character's role play and I view the process of me getting better at controlling that character and getting personally invested in the narrative I create through them as the most important element of my hero's journey.
If ultimately my "Hero's journey" is me making a few limited choices as my character progresses along a scripted storyline with my input having minimal impact on anything I would rather just go turn on Netflix and watch a more interesting story created by better writers.
I get what you want, I just find it pathetic, and don't get why anyone would ever want it. Much less why you feel every MMORPG must be for people who tap buttons and drool slightly in order to be a roleplaying game and are so vehemently opposed to people who actually want to challenge themselves enjoying features like character customization or massively multiplayer worlds.
There has to be progression, say in MMO's without gear progression, character levels and focusing just in your skill at something, then you have a big longevity problem to attend to.
The mix of 50/50 gear and skill is what cuts the deal, you gear up, you upgrade, from the lowest to the highest tiers and when you reach the end-game, it's when it depends mostly on your skill.
Disagree. DAoC in its prime had no gear progression. Levels were just something we had to endure, because at the time that is what MMOs were. Asheron's Call was another. No one even attempted to clone either of those games. WoW choose gear progression, and no other game has tried to break that mold. Perhaps, its not surprising we've been stuck for 13 years now.
Another fun game that didn't have too much of a gear progression was DDO. But then they became popular and forced gear progression on the players. DDO isn't so popular, anymore.
If gear-progression games didn't feel like second jobs, I would happily play them. But when I did play those types of games, it was not fun, and the community was toxic.
PvP games with gear progression will never be as popular as games that depend on the player. I don't see why we don't have a MMO that took DAoC's spot.
I mean I understand that there are people like you. There is a game I played for a bit on my phone a while back where I actually could set my character to auto-run while he actually went to the quest points by himself and killed the enemies by himself while I literally did nothing but sit back and watch. (Needless to say I uninstalled it the same day I downloaded it.)
I enjoy RPGs. I enjoy creating a character who fulfills a role in another setting. Most of all I enjoy customizing that character and creating it the way that I want it. But at the end of the day I want that character to serve as an extension of myself. I always put elements of my own personality into my character's role play and I view the process of me getting better at controlling that character and getting personally invested in the narrative I create through them as the most important element of my hero's journey.
If ultimately my "Hero's journey" is me making a few limited choices as my character progresses along a scripted storyline with my input having minimal impact on anything I would rather just go turn on Netflix and watch a more interesting story created by better writers.
I get what you want, I just find it pathetic, and don't get why anyone would ever want it. Much less why you feel every MMORPG must be for people who tap buttons and drool slightly in order to be a roleplaying game and are so vehemently opposed to people who actually want to challenge themselves enjoying features like character customization or massively multiplayer worlds.
A) Pathetic is needing to get your Epeen off in a thread ASKING opinions about player skill by calling other opinions pathetic and making fun of those folks (drooling.. really? Are you a child unable to have a rational discourse?)
Please show me where i said "every MMORPG must be for people who tap buttons etc...". You want a game that is 100% twitch based.. go knock yourself out. I couldn't care less if such a game was made for you. Unlike you... I understand that there should be a variety. This thread asked for a preference. It was not a Highlander-like ultimatum that said "There can only be One"
I personally find it silly that my archer that has trained for 20 years on the bow and is the greatest marksman in the land, would depend 100% on my twitch skills. Why should my "skill" at moving a mouse or pressing a button have anything at all to do with my character's success? What if the game replaced mouse and keyboard with a dancepad and only the most skilled dancers would be the greatest warriors among us as we kicked, stomped and tapped our way to victory in battle? Or what if it was skill with a flute? Blow Note A to swing your sword, B to block with a shield...
Both of those have as much to do with my character as a mouse and keyboard.
That said.. unlike you... I acknowledge that others enjoy their mouse and keyboard skills in an MMORPG. I say more power to them. Unlike you I feel no compunction to put them down as a group of "droolers". Let them play such a game... heck I played and enjoyed Darkfall.
My PREFERENCE is to allow my character's skill to prevail as much as possible.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Strawman argument. I never said I want games to be 100% twitch. I said that player input should be more important than character skills. You say that "Character Skills > All". Your exact quote.
This means:
"Character Skills > Twitch Skills" "Character Skills > Tactics" "Character Skills > Player Politics" "Character Skills > Learning Your Build" "Character Skills > Thinking or Doing Anything"
And yeah. I find that pathetic. Human beings are meant to aspire to be more. To do better and learn from their mistakes. None of that is possible in a game where:
"Character Skills > All"
Some people have a preference of sitting on the couch all day watching TV and eating junk food. Seems like a similar level "PREFERENCE" to me.
Just to answer the basic essence of the poll - an RPG (role-playing-game) I feel, the character should be the one doing the work, hence "role playing". Short of choosing the action, my ability to perform the action as a player, should be minimal since it's my character who is the uber-kickass-ultimate-assassin... not me.
The only game I've seen do gear "right", however, was an "ancient" MUD I played in the mid 90's. The gear was dropped fomr mobs, as usual, and there were various levels of gear you could get. However, it was up to the player to buff the gear, buff themselves and then find a willing mage to enchant the gear. It was up to the mage to have high enough stats and money to really give themselves the best chance of enchanting gear to the max possible amount they could.
So this made the gear itself, as good as the players who were able to produce it. So the players running around with +7 of the highest tiered items they could get, damn well earned that gear! being a full look PvP MUD also made sure that gear was never safe.
Strawman argument. I never said I want games to be 100% twitch. I said that player input should be more important than character skills. You say that "Character Skills > All". Your exact quote.
This means:
"Character Skills > Twitch Skills" "Character Skills > Tactics" "Character Skills > Player Politics" "Character Skills > Learning Your Build" "Character Skills > Thinking or Doing Anything"
And yeah. I find that pathetic. Human beings are meant to aspire to be more. To do better and learn from their mistakes. None of that is possible in a game where:
"Character Skills > All"
Some people have a preference of sitting on the couch all day watching TV and eating junk food. Seems like a similar level "PREFERENCE" to me.
Being weighed > ALL does not mean none of the other factors should count. If you think so, that's a simple logic fail.
Human beings are not meant to aspire to anything in a silly video game. Games are fun ways to pass time. Human beings should aspire to be more IRL.
There are PLENTY of things I think are pathetic
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Human beings are not meant to aspire to anything in a silly video game. Games are fun ways to pass time. Human beings should aspire to be more IRL.
No. Human beings are meant to aspire to be more in literally everything they do. When I fix myself breakfast, I'm aiming to hone on those skills and improve upon my recipes so I can do it better and/or faster next time. When I go to work I want to get better at my job and receive a promotion or build skills I can take on to my next place of employment. When I take my fiance to the bedroom I want her to experience more pleasure than she did the last time I did. When I play chess I want to analyze my victories and mistakes so I can do better next time. If I play football with my friends I want to hone on those skills so I can do better next time. If I play Risk, or Monopoly, or Magic The Gathering I want to refine my strategies and do better next time. Hell when I watch TV or read a book I want to learn something I didn't know before or see things from a perspective I hadn't considered before.
And when I play a video game, I want to learn something or get better at something. Be it how to better manipulate the economy in EVE, a better starting build order in Starcraft or Age of Empires, tightening my macros and reconfiguring my skillbars in Darkfall, or yes, improving my aim in Halo or Dust 514. I want to build upon myself in everything I do because everything else is wasted time. Many of the skills I've picked up in games have found real life applications, particularly the skills I've gained leading guilds and building alliances. It's also been extensively proven that continually honing my "twitch" skills will help keep me mentally sharp in my older years. That's something a few of the anti-twitch posters on these boards may want to consider.
And I want the results of those things I've learned and built to be more meaningful, and have more of an impact, then the drop of an orange piece of gear or another ding as my character levels. When all my time is spent making my gear a different color or my character a higher level it robs me of time I could potentially use to further more interesting skills.
In a good game you do interesting things and the XP/Item reward come as a bonus. In 95% of MMOs you seek after experience and gear to the exclusion of most other things because "Character Skill > All".
But apparently you are ok spending hundreds of hours on a hobby you have no significant aspiration to get better at.
Human beings are not meant to aspire to anything in a silly video game. Games are fun ways to pass time. Human beings should aspire to be more IRL.
No. Human beings are meant to aspire to be more in literally everything they do. When I fix myself breakfast, I'm aiming to hone on those skills and improve upon my recipes so I can do it better and/or faster next time. When I go to work I want to get better at my job and receive a promotion or build skills I can take on to my next place of employment. When I take my fiance to the bedroom I want her to experience more pleasure than she did the last time I did. When I play chess I want to analyze my victories and mistakes so I can do better next time. If I play football with my friends I want to hone on those skills so I can do better next time. If I play Risk, or Monopoly, or Magic The Gathering I want to refine my strategies and do better next time. Hell when I watch TV or read a book I want to learn something I didn't know before or see things from a perspective I hadn't considered before.
And when I play a video game, I want to learn something or get better at something. Be it how to better manipulate the economy in EVE, a better starting build order in Starcraft or Age of Empires, tightening my macros and reconfiguring my skillbars in Darkfall, or yes, improving my aim in Halo or Dust 514. I want to build upon myself in everything I do because everything else is wasted time. Many of the skills I've picked up in games have found real life applications, particularly the skills I've gained leading guilds and building alliances. It's also been extensively proven that continually honing my "twitch" skills will help keep me mentally sharp in my older years. That's something a few of the anti-twitch posters on these boards may want to consider.
And I want the results of those things I've learned and built to be more meaningful, and have more of an impact, then the drop of an orange piece of gear or another ding as my character levels. When all my time is spent making my gear a different color or my character a higher level it robs me of time I could potentially use to further more interesting skills.
In a good game you do interesting things and the XP/Item reward come as a bonus. In 95% of MMOs you seek after experience and gear to the exclusion of most other things because "Character Skill > All".
But apparently you are ok spending hundreds of hours on a hobby you have no significant aspiration to get better at.
You mean you aspire to click the button better while moving the mouse quicker... OK. More power to you. This will help you practice.
There has to be progression, say in MMO's without gear progression, character levels and focusing just in your skill at something, then you have a big longevity problem to attend to.
The mix of 50/50 gear and skill is what cuts the deal, you gear up, you upgrade, from the lowest to the highest tiers and when you reach the end-game, it's when it depends mostly on your skill.
Disagree. DAoC in its prime had no gear progression. Levels were just something we had to endure, because at the time that is what MMOs were. Asheron's Call was another. No one even attempted to clone either of those games. WoW choose gear progression, and no other game has tried to break that mold. Perhaps, its not surprising we've been stuck for 13 years now.
Another fun game that didn't have too much of a gear progression was DDO. But then they became popular and forced gear progression on the players. DDO isn't so popular, anymore.
If gear-progression games didn't feel like second jobs, I would happily play them. But when I did play those types of games, it was not fun, and the community was toxic.
PvP games with gear progression will never be as popular as games that depend on the player. I don't see why we don't have a MMO that took DAoC's spot.
Considering even many FPSs these days have tacked on gear progression (CoD and Battlefield among them), I strongly disagree.
And DAoC had deceptively robust PvE content for its time. If you mean that that gear progression had a relatively low cap reference PvP, I agree, but to say it had no gear progression is being deceptive.
I mained a sword and board Pally. I didn't play much in the way of PvP, as I was a hybrid and I didn't have access to the CC resistances and purges that classes like the Armsman enjoyed. I played DAoC well over a year straight on that Paladin as a main.
With all that said, I agree that, for PvP, I'd much rather have a lower gear stat cap that allows everyone to attain a roughly level playing field without having to quit their day jobs to keep up with the Joneses. It's never fun to be stomped and left with the feeling that nothing you could have done differently would've changed the end result.
It's not meant to be normal gameplay. But if a player is willing to "lose" advancement for temporary power in a PvE only game I would let them.
Mabinogi has two examples of this. Spirit weapons, which you can essentially sacrifice a bunch of gear into to get amazing stats (but the weapon has energy requirements and repair requirements that makes it so that anywhere you do use it almost always means that you lost more income than you could ever make out of your challenge). Another one is the spear of light, which is again another item with well beyond normal stats, which takes damage like a normal weapon but in order to repair it you need to use your character's actual AP (which is used for advancing your character skill/ability wise, though the game does allow for unlimited growth).
....And that basically allow you to beat any challenge as long as you grind easy stuff beforehand to get the resources to do it.
So I wouldn't let them if it was up to me. It replaces competence with willingless to grind.
Get me right, grinding isn't neccesarily a bad thing and I am all for gaining power by playing the game but allowing people to beat any challenge just because they have the right gear no matter how bad they play is not fun, it is poor game design.
See, lol. The fact that you equate a confidence in my skill to faster reaction time shows that despite being a "foremost expert on MMOs" you've never really given an earnest try to getting better at them.
Yes I have a lot of inborn physical prowess. I was a lineman on my highschool football team and did wrestling because I am tall and BIG. My physical advantages come in the form of strength and constitution. I actually had to go to special agility training because my speed was so subpar and I had to work at it to not make it hold me back significantly.
Suffice to say, my twitch skills are average at best. When I step into a video game all my physical prowess is left at the door because strength and fortitude don't matter. Man, if only they did I would be unbeatable as a paladin.
But yes, I am a pretty darn decent gamer. If you jump on me in a video game I will have you CCed and be healing myself back to full pretty damn fast. Why? Hotkeys. The first thing I do when I come into a game is I consider the abilities I use the most and make sure they are bound to hotkeys I can easily activate even when caught by surprise. I make sure abilities I use together are laid out so it's easy to activate them in succession. I read up on my abilities and make sure I know what they do, and if what they do is unclear I test them and learn about it. And then I practice using my build.
When I play an FPS my reaction speed isn't good. My aim is alright. But I know where to aim on your body based on the weapon I'm using. I know what weapon to use in what situation. I know the map, and how to use it to my advantage.
It's not about "twitch". It's about foresight. It's about being motivated to succeed. That's why I relish a chance to show off my skills, and you want your character to do everything for you. Because I seek to learn and better myself, and it makes me better. And you just whine about "twitch" and puts you in a position where you are helpless if the game doesn't do everything for you.
Well i see and read the argument but it is a no lol.
wit guile smarts whatever,how is that FAIR to the other player who could still have even more wit than anyone else on the server,if the system does not allow him an equal fair chance based simply on time or numbers?
Another fact is gear>skill is more related to TIME spent and nothing else,that is not a FAIR system.
Having been there during the UT99 days of serious fps pvp i got to witness a player move in and dominate others who played far more days/weeks/hours with player skill.If there had of been a system whereby the TIME =win,that world champion would have never had a chance to be world champion because Time never stays still for you to catch up.
Even inside mmorpg's,they tend to alienate those who might work,have a job and can't sit there 16 hours raiding for the best gear which leads to another topic on how and where best gear should arrive.
This argument "a bad one"made me think of MMA and Jon Jones.I am sure he could argue that he got ahead and made millions because he was smarter "until caught"than the rest of his competitors.EVERYONE in the sport and governing bodies know Jones is WRONG but sadly the penalty is not enough.It doesn't matter what avenue of SMART/Wit you took,if it crosses the line of being FAIR it is WRONG.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I should make note that gear is a driving force behind players,numbers,if there was no elite gear these games would likely die off badly.This actually points to the sad reality that people are not playing for the FUN or the experience but more so they are playing for superficial reasons.
I have been striving to NOT support these lame weak rpg designs,i want to see the industry move closer to a role playing experience than instance dungeon raids with group finders.Thing is i want to play a rpg not some instance generator with loot tables.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I should make note that gear is a driving force behind players,numbers,if there was no elite gear these games would likely die off badly.This actually points to the sad reality that people are not playing for the FUN or the experience but more so they are playing for superficial reasons.
EVE really disproves this theory. It rose from indie status to the most popular sandbox MMO ever. Leveling does not require grinding. Elite gear can get blown up in a blaze of glory because of one bad judgment call.
Sure people work for things. They work to build new ships that can still be blown up in a blaze of glory. They work to conquer systems they can lose. They build citadels that can be blown up in a blaze of glory. They work to build ISK which is all spent on things that can be lost.
But the one part of your character that is permanent, your skills, train at the same rate online or offline. Just recently they have introduced skill boosters you can buy that get less effective the higher your skillpoint total (To balance newbs with vets) but when they reached their peak player population there was nothing permanent you could grind for.
You don't think a similar system could work in a game with a more exciting combat system? I am 100% sure it could. Especially if you addressed some of the griefing issues at the same time.
Considering even many FPSs these days have tacked on gear progression (CoD and Battlefield among them), I strongly disagree.
And DAoC had deceptively robust PvE content for its time. If you mean that that gear progression had a relatively low cap reference PvP, I agree, but to say it had no gear progression is being deceptive.
I mained a sword and board Pally. I didn't play much in the way of PvP, as I was a hybrid and I didn't have access to the CC resistances and purges that classes like the Armsman enjoyed. I played DAoC well over a year straight on that Paladin as a main.
With all that said, I agree that, for PvP, I'd much rather have a lower gear stat cap that allows everyone to attain a roughly level playing field without having to quit their day jobs to keep up with the Joneses. It's never fun to be stomped and left with the feeling that nothing you could have done differently would've changed the end result.
Yeah gear-progression is so core, it's a normal thing. This only feels like some chore when people see it (or games force it) as a race to the endgame and the "meta-build" you want.
As for PvP and gear progression, I'm more inclined to simply not not being "this piece of gear/weapon is just better from the previous piece", and instead have multiple gear have different primary focus for different strategy play (what leads to strengthens and weaknesses).
But then in open-world PvP the game simply can't realistically babysitt you just because someone is stronger than you, even if they did balance everyone equally, the same result would in a 2v1, it's just the deal. The only thing I really hate on open-world PvP is character levels with higher stats, where your level is your weakeness, not your skill neither the type of gear you have dressed.
Considering even many FPSs these days have tacked on gear progression (CoD and Battlefield among them), I strongly disagree.
Gear progression in most the FPSes I have played that added it is horizontal progression. You can earn the right to use new weapons but they aren't inherently better than the weapons you are given at the start, just different. To a large degree they are mainly just status symbols.
See, lol. The fact that you equate a confidence in my skill to faster reaction time shows that despite being a "foremost expert on MMOs" you've never really given an earnest try to getting better at them.
Yes I have a lot of inborn physical prowess. I was a lineman on my highschool football team and did wrestling because I am tall and BIG. My physical advantages come in the form of strength and constitution. I actually had to go to special agility training because my speed was so subpar and I had to work at it to not make it hold me back significantly.
Suffice to say, my twitch skills are average at best. When I step into a video game all my physical prowess is left at the door because strength and fortitude don't matter. Man, if only they did I would be unbeatable as a paladin.
But yes, I am a pretty darn decent gamer. If you jump on me in a video game I will have you CCed and be healing myself back to full pretty damn fast. Why? Hotkeys. The first thing I do when I come into a game is I consider the abilities I use the most and make sure they are bound to hotkeys I can easily activate even when caught by surprise. I make sure abilities I use together are laid out so it's easy to activate them in succession. I read up on my abilities and make sure I know what they do, and if what they do is unclear I test them and learn about it. And then I practice using my build.
When I play an FPS my reaction speed isn't good. My aim is alright. But I know where to aim on your body based on the weapon I'm using. I know what weapon to use in what situation. I know the map, and how to use it to my advantage.
It's not about "twitch". It's about foresight. It's about being motivated to succeed. That's why I relish a chance to show off my skills, and you want your character to do everything for you. Because I seek to learn and better myself, and it makes me better. And you just whine about "twitch" and puts you in a position where you are helpless if the game doesn't do everything for you.
Congrats on being one of the 1,000,000 high school football players who each year show their innate physical ability. I was always more of a baseball and basketball guy but whatever helps you sleep at night.
You also clearly have difficulty understanding that a preference for something does not equate with an inability to do something else. When in the mood I thoroughly enjoy some Overwatch or Battlefield. Your continued attempt to belittle people because of a PREFERENCE speaks volumes about you.
This thread was about people's preferences and if you can't handle the fact that other folks will have different preferences than you without the lame attempts at insults you should probably do a self-evaluation.
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If forced to pick between the two, of course Skill is preferable to Gear for most people. This is because we all like to imagine we're great players, and it infuriates us to think we could be outdone or beaten by someone because they have better gear (which, admittedly, is typically due to favorable RNG).
It's the same reason why Levels are so annoying in games. Oh, you mean this guy who has spent a few more hours than me but I perceive to be terrible can outdo / beat me? Yes, this is also annoying.
So, I would imagine the game most people want to be made is based on Skill progression and does not rely on Leveling to unlock stuff.
Unfortunately, these games are few and far between, and the ones that are out there have small player populations (relative to competing games). This is because, for your average or bad player that can easily be outdone / beaten by a skilled player, it's annoying to them that, at some point, their capabilities will peak and there's nothing they can do to improve beyond more skilled players. For many, it's too much to bear to know that you suck.
This, I believe, is also why microtransactions are so popular, especially with players of average or below-average skill level. "Oh, I suck at this game... I'll just buy my way out of sucking!"
Considering even many FPSs these days have tacked on gear progression (CoD and Battlefield among them), I strongly disagree.
Gear progression in most the FPSes I have played that added it is horizontal progression. You can earn the right to use new weapons but they aren't inherently better than the weapons you are given at the start, just different. To a large degree they are mainly just status symbols.
While that's the idea, the unlocking of scopes is a direct upgrade. Having a red dot sight is much easier to spot and track targets with than, say, a 3 prong iron sight. At long ranges, unlocking an ACOG with zoom is inherently better than attempting to iron sight. Laser sights in the BF series is a straight upgrade to the hip fire spread. The main thing is these things aren't insurmountable obstacles.
Additionally, while most developers attempt to ensure its all sidegrades, most I've played have guns that are preferred by competitive players in large part because they excel where others falter. That's just balance, though; it's unrealistic a goal to ensure that all weapons are always sidegrades.
Comments
Better... but still lame analogy:
Character skill
Player: I attack the Goblin Chieftain with my sword.
DM: You are a highly skilled warrior. Roll 1d20.
Player: Rolls 15
DM: You hit the Chieftain and slice a deep gash in his side.
Player Skill
Player: I attack the Goblin Chieftain with my sword.
DM: OK, pick up the practice sword off the table. John, you stand on that side with this big club. When Player comes to attack you wack him on the head.
Player: But my character is a highly skilled warrior... and John is 6'7" 290 and is going to beat the shit out of me in real life...
DM: This is a player skill game...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
However I've never seen high int/wisdom characters go beyond occasional int/wisdom checks for some advise. If you are an average intelligence player with some stacked int wizard the DM doesn't sit there and draw out a detailed battle plan that will go off without hitch for you even though Int 20 translates to your character standing alongside the greatest human minds to ever exist and that's realistically how it should go down. Especially since you can get like 30 on some ability scores and have a character more wise, intelligent, or charismatic than could ever conceivably exist.
Ultimately if you decide you kick in the door without checking for traps, you kick in the door without checking for traps. Doesn't matter if you are 30 int and wisdom. Ultimately if you decided to tell the king to shove it and whip out your sword to kill him, you tell the king to shove it, doesn't matter if your charisma and wisdom are 30.
And that's ultimately why we play these games. If I could just all my points into mental stats and have my characters do everything perfectly with no input needed by me, I wouldn't play the game. Because there would be no function for me as a player.
Books are about following a character with no input involved. Movies are about watching a character with no input involved.
In every decent game ever made Player Input > Character Stats.
I think Slapshot and others are forgetting that RPG stand for Role-Playing GAME. In a game your avatar is your representation in the game world. Not a replacement for your ability to think and act.
People like you are thinking that it is about your selfworth and ego. It is about you and your "skillz" thinking or otherwise. It is just a game.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It is just a game so why are you playing if you don't want your input to matter? TVs were made for people like you.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I enjoy RPGs. I enjoy creating a character who fulfills a role in another setting. Most of all I enjoy customizing that character and creating it the way that I want it. But at the end of the day I want that character to serve as an extension of myself. I always put elements of my own personality into my character's role play and I view the process of me getting better at controlling that character and getting personally invested in the narrative I create through them as the most important element of my hero's journey.
If ultimately my "Hero's journey" is me making a few limited choices as my character progresses along a scripted storyline with my input having minimal impact on anything I would rather just go turn on Netflix and watch a more interesting story created by better writers.
I get what you want, I just find it pathetic, and don't get why anyone would ever want it. Much less why you feel every MMORPG must be for people who tap buttons and drool slightly in order to be a roleplaying game and are so vehemently opposed to people who actually want to challenge themselves enjoying features like character customization or massively multiplayer worlds.
Another fun game that didn't have too much of a gear progression was DDO. But then they became popular and forced gear progression on the players. DDO isn't so popular, anymore.
If gear-progression games didn't feel like second jobs, I would happily play them. But when I did play those types of games, it was not fun, and the community was toxic.
PvP games with gear progression will never be as popular as games that depend on the player. I don't see why we don't have a MMO that took DAoC's spot.
I personally find it silly that my archer that has trained for 20 years on the bow and is the greatest marksman in the land, would depend 100% on my twitch skills. Why should my "skill" at moving a mouse or pressing a button have anything at all to do with my character's success? What if the game replaced mouse and keyboard with a dancepad and only the most skilled dancers would be the greatest warriors among us as we kicked, stomped and tapped our way to victory in battle? Or what if it was skill with a flute? Blow Note A to swing your sword, B to block with a shield...
Both of those have as much to do with my character as a mouse and keyboard.
That said.. unlike you... I acknowledge that others enjoy their mouse and keyboard skills in an MMORPG. I say more power to them. Unlike you I feel no compunction to put them down as a group of "droolers". Let them play such a game... heck I played and enjoyed Darkfall.
My PREFERENCE is to allow my character's skill to prevail as much as possible.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This means:
"Character Skills > Twitch Skills"
"Character Skills > Tactics"
"Character Skills > Player Politics"
"Character Skills > Learning Your Build"
"Character Skills > Thinking or Doing Anything"
And yeah. I find that pathetic. Human beings are meant to aspire to be more. To do better and learn from their mistakes. None of that is possible in a game where:
"Character Skills > All"
Some people have a preference of sitting on the couch all day watching TV and eating junk food. Seems like a similar level "PREFERENCE" to me.
The only game I've seen do gear "right", however, was an "ancient" MUD I played in the mid 90's. The gear was dropped fomr mobs, as usual, and there were various levels of gear you could get. However, it was up to the player to buff the gear, buff themselves and then find a willing mage to enchant the gear. It was up to the mage to have high enough stats and money to really give themselves the best chance of enchanting gear to the max possible amount they could.
So this made the gear itself, as good as the players who were able to produce it. So the players running around with +7 of the highest tiered items they could get, damn well earned that gear! being a full look PvP MUD also made sure that gear was never safe.
Human beings are not meant to aspire to anything in a silly video game. Games are fun ways to pass time. Human beings should aspire to be more IRL.
There are PLENTY of things I think are pathetic
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And when I play a video game, I want to learn something or get better at something. Be it how to better manipulate the economy in EVE, a better starting build order in Starcraft or Age of Empires, tightening my macros and reconfiguring my skillbars in Darkfall, or yes, improving my aim in Halo or Dust 514. I want to build upon myself in everything I do because everything else is wasted time. Many of the skills I've picked up in games have found real life applications, particularly the skills I've gained leading guilds and building alliances. It's also been extensively proven that continually honing my "twitch" skills will help keep me mentally sharp in my older years. That's something a few of the anti-twitch posters on these boards may want to consider.
And I want the results of those things I've learned and built to be more meaningful, and have more of an impact, then the drop of an orange piece of gear or another ding as my character levels. When all my time is spent making my gear a different color or my character a higher level it robs me of time I could potentially use to further more interesting skills.
In a good game you do interesting things and the XP/Item reward come as a bonus. In 95% of MMOs you seek after experience and gear to the exclusion of most other things because "Character Skill > All".
But apparently you are ok spending hundreds of hours on a hobby you have no significant aspiration to get better at.
https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/91613613/
Enjoy.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And DAoC had deceptively robust PvE content for its time. If you mean that that gear progression had a relatively low cap reference PvP, I agree, but to say it had no gear progression is being deceptive.
I mained a sword and board Pally. I didn't play much in the way of PvP, as I was a hybrid and I didn't have access to the CC resistances and purges that classes like the Armsman enjoyed. I played DAoC well over a year straight on that Paladin as a main.
With all that said, I agree that, for PvP, I'd much rather have a lower gear stat cap that allows everyone to attain a roughly level playing field without having to quit their day jobs to keep up with the Joneses. It's never fun to be stomped and left with the feeling that nothing you could have done differently would've changed the end result.
So I wouldn't let them if it was up to me. It replaces competence with willingless to grind.
Get me right, grinding isn't neccesarily a bad thing and I am all for gaining power by playing the game but allowing people to beat any challenge just because they have the right gear no matter how bad they play is not fun, it is poor game design.
Yes I have a lot of inborn physical prowess. I was a lineman on my highschool football team and did wrestling because I am tall and BIG. My physical advantages come in the form of strength and constitution. I actually had to go to special agility training because my speed was so subpar and I had to work at it to not make it hold me back significantly.
Suffice to say, my twitch skills are average at best. When I step into a video game all my physical prowess is left at the door because strength and fortitude don't matter. Man, if only they did I would be unbeatable as a paladin.
But yes, I am a pretty darn decent gamer. If you jump on me in a video game I will have you CCed and be healing myself back to full pretty damn fast. Why? Hotkeys. The first thing I do when I come into a game is I consider the abilities I use the most and make sure they are bound to hotkeys I can easily activate even when caught by surprise. I make sure abilities I use together are laid out so it's easy to activate them in succession. I read up on my abilities and make sure I know what they do, and if what they do is unclear I test them and learn about it. And then I practice using my build.
When I play an FPS my reaction speed isn't good. My aim is alright. But I know where to aim on your body based on the weapon I'm using. I know what weapon to use in what situation. I know the map, and how to use it to my advantage.
It's not about "twitch". It's about foresight. It's about being motivated to succeed. That's why I relish a chance to show off my skills, and you want your character to do everything for you. Because I seek to learn and better myself, and it makes me better. And you just whine about "twitch" and puts you in a position where you are helpless if the game doesn't do everything for you.
wit guile smarts whatever,how is that FAIR to the other player who could still have even more wit than anyone else on the server,if the system does not allow him an equal fair chance based simply on time or numbers?
Another fact is gear>skill is more related to TIME spent and nothing else,that is not a FAIR system.
Having been there during the UT99 days of serious fps pvp i got to witness a player move in and dominate others who played far more days/weeks/hours with player skill.If there had of been a system whereby the TIME =win,that world champion would have never had a chance to be world champion because Time never stays still for you to catch up.
Even inside mmorpg's,they tend to alienate those who might work,have a job and can't sit there 16 hours raiding for the best gear which leads to another topic on how and where best gear should arrive.
This argument "a bad one"made me think of MMA and Jon Jones.I am sure he could argue that he got ahead and made millions because he was smarter "until caught"than the rest of his competitors.EVERYONE in the sport and governing bodies know Jones is WRONG but sadly the penalty is not enough.It doesn't matter what avenue of SMART/Wit you took,if it crosses the line of being FAIR it is WRONG.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I have been striving to NOT support these lame weak rpg designs,i want to see the industry move closer to a role playing experience than instance dungeon raids with group finders.Thing is i want to play a rpg not some instance generator with loot tables.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sure people work for things. They work to build new ships that can still be blown up in a blaze of glory. They work to conquer systems they can lose. They build citadels that can be blown up in a blaze of glory. They work to build ISK which is all spent on things that can be lost.
But the one part of your character that is permanent, your skills, train at the same rate online or offline. Just recently they have introduced skill boosters you can buy that get less effective the higher your skillpoint total (To balance newbs with vets) but when they reached their peak player population there was nothing permanent you could grind for.
You don't think a similar system could work in a game with a more exciting combat system? I am 100% sure it could. Especially if you addressed some of the griefing issues at the same time.
As for PvP and gear progression, I'm more inclined to simply not not being "this piece of gear/weapon is just better from the previous piece", and instead have multiple gear have different primary focus for different strategy play (what leads to strengthens and weaknesses).
But then in open-world PvP the game simply can't realistically babysitt you just because someone is stronger than you, even if they did balance everyone equally, the same result would in a 2v1, it's just the deal. The only thing I really hate on open-world PvP is character levels with higher stats, where your level is your weakeness, not your skill neither the type of gear you have dressed.
You also clearly have difficulty understanding that a preference for something does not equate with an inability to do something else. When in the mood I thoroughly enjoy some Overwatch or Battlefield. Your continued attempt to belittle people because of a PREFERENCE speaks volumes about you.
This thread was about people's preferences and if you can't handle the fact that other folks will have different preferences than you without the lame attempts at insults you should probably do a self-evaluation.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's the same reason why Levels are so annoying in games. Oh, you mean this guy who has spent a few more hours than me but I perceive to be terrible can outdo / beat me? Yes, this is also annoying.
So, I would imagine the game most people want to be made is based on Skill progression and does not rely on Leveling to unlock stuff.
Unfortunately, these games are few and far between, and the ones that are out there have small player populations (relative to competing games). This is because, for your average or bad player that can easily be outdone / beaten by a skilled player, it's annoying to them that, at some point, their capabilities will peak and there's nothing they can do to improve beyond more skilled players. For many, it's too much to bear to know that you suck.
This, I believe, is also why microtransactions are so popular, especially with players of average or below-average skill level. "Oh, I suck at this game... I'll just buy my way out of sucking!"
Just my opinion.
Additionally, while most developers attempt to ensure its all sidegrades, most I've played have guns that are preferred by competitive players in large part because they excel where others falter. That's just balance, though; it's unrealistic a goal to ensure that all weapons are always sidegrades.