Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Pantheon doing level scaling? Seriously?

245

Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited September 2017
    This is a horrible idea. Not only does it remind players of the rampant themepark hand holding these days but it completely destroys immersion. Want to get stronger so you can take on the storm giants? No problem! Just run there at level 1 and kill them.
    Never bring in levels and immersion in the same sentence. 

    In one zone you beat the snot out of dragons and you move to the next only to get owned by a wolf. There is zero logic in that, while a pack of wolves can kill an adult human it is rare and a sword wielding plate bearing human would still have a good chance, even with limited training. A huge dragon that can burn down towns should logically be harder.

    Not to mention that fighting 20 inexperienced people alone would be incredible hard if not impossible no matter how experienced you are. With levels that is usually easy if they are lvl 1 and you are maxed out.

    Besides, I assume we are talking about downward scaling, not upward. That will probably mean that you are still rather powerful when downleveled but can't just steamroll an entire zone (GW2 does this and it works fine there).

    I am all for downleveling as long as it is done right.
    Azaron_Nightblade[Deleted User]Shadowdawnz
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    Ok you're either trolling or you haven't actually played ESO since the One Tamriel patch lol.

    The way it actually works is when you have a noob weapon and no armor that fight takes you 30 seconds and you almost died twice but it's doable.

    When you're level 110 the same fight takes you 3 seconds and there was never any chance of dying.

    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 
    SlyLoKAzaron_Nightbladeadvokat666MrMelGibsonShadowdawnz
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    What in the actual shite is that?

    Worst
    Design
    Idea
    Ever
    Even worse than that is to be the level capped full geared dude and having a hard time hitting that mob then see a level 3 newbie having an easier time than you do. 

    That is the equivalent of not only your date has a penis, but also hers is bigger than yours. 
    KyleranAzaron_NightbladePingu2012[Deleted User]MrMelGibson
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?

    Playing together with friends is nice, no doubt, but if the cost for doing so creates a situation that doesn't make sense you can pretty much just design your typical themepark BS with 'everyone plays' attitude.

    Preventing power leveling would be a goal worth to pursuit. So would be stopping instance boosting (if Pantheon had instances, that is). But deliberate power decrease in group play is not.

    "Oh, i know these ogres want to kill us all, but this wouldn't be any fun if i just one-shot all of them. Tell you what, i'll fight with my dagger and my left hand only so that our lives can still hang by a thread, okay?"
    Mendel
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    Yeah.... as Loke666 says, the standard MMORPG  practice of ever increasing character power combined with a procession of areas of ever increasing static difficulty is contrary to any realistic immersion. Real worlds just don't work like that, and that approach just leads to dead zones as the population shifts over the life of a game.

    The older style of linear progression from zone to zone sounds a lot more theme park than scaling systems that let one adventure organically.

    I've played both GW2 and ESO and each works fine in their way.

    In these games the more developed character will always have more depth and breadth than those less so, so the concept of increased power over time is preserved, just in a more flexible fashion that better retains the value of all content for all players.
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    I would be fine either way but I think Pantheon if using a mentor system over full game scaling.

    I wasnt sure about it in ESO but for that game and for me it is a great addition.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    DMKano said:
    deniter said:
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?

    Playing together with friends is nice, no doubt, but if the cost for doing so creates a situation that doesn't make sense you can pretty much just design your typical themepark BS with 'everyone plays' attitude.

    Preventing power leveling would be a goal worth to pursuit. So would be stopping instance boosting (if Pantheon had instances, that is). But deliberate power decrease in group play is not.

    "Oh, i know these ogres want to kill us all, but this wouldn't be any fun if i just one-shot all of them. Tell you what, i'll fight with my dagger and my left hand only so that our lives can still hang by a thread, okay?"

    I just power level my friends to near my level - mentoring system is not bad - I just never found any use for it personally in games that had it.
    I was wondering if Pantheon was going to try and restrict power leveling, anyone know?

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Kilsin said:
    We are not instancing or level scaling, we will have a Mentor system that allows players of different levels to lower themselves to the lowest level player to group up and play together at appropriate levels, it is optional and just a way for high level players to play with low level friends/family and new players without steamrolling everything.
    EQ1 tried to do the exact same thing with the Shroud system.  It was a pretty dismal failure, and broke immersion quite dramatically.   There isn't a description of how it will work, only vagueness.  Will a mentor system be something useful and desirable, or more of a placebo?  I don't know, I won't be able to know how it works until there are reliable reports.  Kilsin should be in a position to maybe have some inside information, but once again reports only marketing pablum.  The single sentence above could easily have been applied to a the Shroud system before it was released, too.

    To anyone following this project, just be prepared for the implementation to be something other than you are expecting.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    wish they could just make an MMORPG where 0 character levels exist, so everyone gears based on the environment of the area to keep the game relevant in all areas. In other words, instead of focusing on all the gears players will have to work to get in order to play the game, the developers could focus on making each area interesting (and even sandboxed)....

    Level Scaling keeps my immersion. 
    Prevents a single player from completely dominated a newb zone. 

    Oh well. :P 
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    deniter said:
    I still think this 'mentoring system' has no place in any seriously taken MMORPG. Do you really want a situation where you fight in light armor with a wooden stick in your weaker hand only because you met someone you know that is not as well trained as you are?


    Mentoring is a choice.  You dont have to do it.  Almost certainly you can group and not mentor if you want.
  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 93
    Iselin said:
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    Ok you're either trolling or you haven't actually played ESO since the One Tamriel patch lol.

    The way it actually works is when you have a noob weapon and no armor that fight takes you 30 seconds and you almost died twice but it's doable.

    When you're level 110 the same fight takes you 3 seconds and there was never any chance of dying.

    That's how it actually works. There's still progression and power gain. What there isn't is gathering 20 of those mobs and killing them all in one AOE shot. 

    Maybe he is. I don´t get his point either. Level scaling if made properly is a very good thing for me. The zones are far more populated, everywhere you go you are challenged, ESO did a good job in that. I hate it like in WoW if i go with my 110 char in a low level zone or let´s say a bc raid and bosses die from an auto attack, that is completely stupid. 
    gervaise1SlyLoK
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited September 2017
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
    I disagree with ArenaNet barely doing it.  I'm all for scaling downwards, it's boosting that destroys any sense of progression for me.

    I despised ESO's system because, to me, it felt a lot like rendering combat to a sideshow along your journey to collect skyshards.  With GW2, I could go into zones as high as I wanted until I found a good balance of risk vs. reward. And I still get to enjoy experience progress towards my masteries by heading to the lowbie zones and being downscaled.  As in ESO, gear can make you more powerful than a toon at that specific level, but it does a good job of tuning character stats to the zone you're in.

    EDIT- Not to mention that downscaling allows me to help out lowbies in my guild without it being a complete waste of time for me.  If I haven't yet completed that map, it's almost as useful an endeavor for me as it is the lowbie to follow them around the zone hitting the vistas, POIs, hearts, and events.

    image
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    edited September 2017
    Torval said:
     I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. .
    I dont know how we can make any simpler. 

    They arent doing level scaling.

    Stay in school, bro.

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    DMKano said:
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.
      Yea , cause kickin kittens is fun ..........


    A level 1 mob with 10HP shouldn't even be a factor to a level 110 player with million HP and 10K DPS 

    Sorry.

    I fart and should kill half the zone at that point.

    Level scaling is absolute shite
    you miss the point , understanbly so
    [Deleted User]MrMelGibson
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
    I disagree with ArenaNet barely doing it.  I'm all for scaling downwards, it's boosting that destroys any sense of progression for me.

    I despised ESO's system because, to me, it felt a lot like rendering combat to a sideshow along your journey to collect skyshards.  With GW2, I could go into zones as high as I wanted until I found a good balance of risk vs. reward. And I still get to enjoy experience progress towards my masteries by heading to the lowbie zones and being downscaled.  As in ESO, gear can make you more powerful than a toon at that specific level, but it does a good job of tuning character stats to the zone you're in.

    EDIT- Not to mention that downscaling allows me to help out lowbies in my guild without it being a complete waste of time for me.  If I haven't yet completed that map, it's almost as useful an endeavor for me as it is the lowbie to follow them around the zone hitting the vistas, POIs, hearts, and events.
    Historically, ESO level scaling started only in Cyrodiil PVP in an effort to try to minimize level disparity there. I don't think many people had an issue with that. It worked relatively well and a lowbee who knew what he was doing had a fighting chance against high level players. That's something we all always say we want in PvP isn't it?

    Next came dungeon level scaling. The reason for that change had more to do with how long it was taking players, especially those Qd as DPS, to find a group to run dungeons. Initially it was just scaling to the group leader's level but that meant that higher level players were getting useless drops and no XP... so they changed it to scale all players to max level same as in Cyrodiil.

    Next came DLC zones. They wanted players of any level to be able to buy and play in those zones. The motivation here was obviously marketing and it was actually a bit rough but it did set the trend for releasing content that was usable by all and not just by those already at max level as is usually the case when most MMOs add new zones.

    One Tamriel was the logical extension of the same idea to the whole game.

    I have to say that I was originally skeptical that they could pull it off without dumbing things down too much so that true brand new players could handle it with few skills and none of the better ones. I spent most of the 3 months that patch was in beta playing on the PTS and I was pleasantly surprised by how using a an extra decreasing bolster (that goes from 100% down to 0% extra from levels 1-34) on top of the normal bolster that everyone under the new universal mob level (CP 160) gets they didn't need to tone down mob difficulty for max CP players - they in fact increased it a bit. It worked.

    Although the game thematically still plays best if done in the original pre-scaling way, since the story progressions still reflect that, there is enough zone-specific story content in ESO that it still works pretty well if you do the zones in some other semi random order.

    As a matter of fact the main reason other than story to be in any one particular zone instead of others is that each zone also got its own themed loot that comes from the quests there, mob drops, treasure chests, etc. That change coincided with One Tamriel but it was anything but coincidental: it's the secret sauce that keeps all zones relevant. You don't just go to noob zones to hep your noob mate level and get his noob gear. You go there because that gear may very well be something you can also use at your higher level, and it drops at your level... always.

    I actually have zero problems with their way of scaling now. I find it very enjoyable and every zone has a mix of level 4s to CP660+ players playing together or nearby.


    MadFrenchieOctagon7711SlyLoKTindale111MrMelGibson
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    DMKano said:
    goboygo said:
    Despise level scaling, sucks the immersion right out of my MMO

    Yep - it's like - you start the game - you fight level 1 creatures with a noob weapon and 25 HP and no armor


    You go back to the same level 1 mob at level 110 with like 1 million HP, flaming weapons, and armor that can withstand a full submersion into molten lava - but that same level 1 mob is still a challenge???

    What in the actual shite is that?

    Worst
    Design
    Idea
    Ever

    You killed that dragon with your bare hands and now a level 1 kobold is  a problem.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited September 2017
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    Scorchien said:
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.
      Yea , cause kickin kittens is fun ..........


    A level 1 mob with 10HP shouldn't even be a factor to a level 110 player with million HP and 10K DPS 

    Sorry.

    I fart and should kill half the zone at that point.

    Level scaling is absolute shite
    you miss the point , understandably so
    Fairly certain you did too.

    My guess is he plays MMOs primarily for the progression (I know I do) and derives great satisfaction from finding the most efficient route to max power. (Which can be lorded over lesser mortals of course.)  ;)

    The game play itself is largely unimportant, and it should be neither annoying or overly inane.

    Immersion, story, all largely irrelevant, who cares why or how, just kill, mine, or crush in a never ending spiral of power.

    Once the pinnacle is actually obtained,  its usually either time to reroll or find another game.

    Kano appears to enjoy doing all of this, in about 10 games at a time.  B)
    [Deleted User]ConstantineMerusdcutbi001

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Iselin said:
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.
    I disagree with ArenaNet barely doing it.  I'm all for scaling downwards, it's boosting that destroys any sense of progression for me.

    I despised ESO's system because, to me, it felt a lot like rendering combat to a sideshow along your journey to collect skyshards.  With GW2, I could go into zones as high as I wanted until I found a good balance of risk vs. reward. And I still get to enjoy experience progress towards my masteries by heading to the lowbie zones and being downscaled.  As in ESO, gear can make you more powerful than a toon at that specific level, but it does a good job of tuning character stats to the zone you're in.

    EDIT- Not to mention that downscaling allows me to help out lowbies in my guild without it being a complete waste of time for me.  If I haven't yet completed that map, it's almost as useful an endeavor for me as it is the lowbie to follow them around the zone hitting the vistas, POIs, hearts, and events.
    Historically, ESO level scaling started only in Cyrodiil PVP in an effort to try to minimize level disparity there. I don't think many people had an issue with that. It worked relatively well and a lowbee who knew what he was doing had a fighting chance against high level players. That's something we all always say we want in PvP isn't it?

    Next came dungeon level scaling. The reason for that change had more to do with how long it was taking players, especially those Qd as DPS, to find a group to run dungeons. Initially it was just scaling to the group leader's level but that meant that higher level players were getting useless drops and no XP... so they changed it to scale all players to max level same as in Cyrodiil.

    Next came DLC zones. They wanted players of any level to be able to buy and play in those zones. The motivation here was obviously marketing and it was actually a bit rough but it did set the trend for releasing content that was usable by all and not just by those already at max level as is usually the case when most MMOs add new zones.

    One Tamriel was the logical extension of the same idea to the whole game.

    I have to say that I was originally skeptical that they could pull it off without dumbing things down too much so that true brand new players could handle it with few skills and none of the better ones. I spent most of the 3 months that patch was in beta playing on the PTS and I was pleasantly surprised by how using a an extra decreasing bolster (that goes from 100% down to 0% extra from levels 1-34) on top of the normal bolster that everyone under the new universal mob level (CP 160) gets they didn't need to tone down mob difficulty for max CP players - they in fact increased it a bit. It worked.

    Although the game thematically still plays best if done in the original pre-scaling way, since the story progressions still reflect that, there is enough zone-specific story content in ESO that it still works pretty well if you do the zones in some other semi random order.

    As a matter of fact the main reason other than story to be in any one particular zone instead of others is that each zone also got its own themed loot that comes from the quests there, mob drops, treasure chests, etc. That change coincided with One Tamriel but it was anything but coincidental: it's the secret sauce that keeps all zones relevant. You don't just go to noob zones to hep your noob mate level and get his noob gear. You go there because that gear may very well be something you can also use at your higher level, and it drops at your level... always.

    I actually have zero problems with their way of scaling now. I find it very enjoyable and every zone has a mix of level 4s to CP660+ players playing together or nearby.


    It seems to be a mix in GW2 (which I'm currently playing): I've received items that are level 80 as well as items that are level-appropriate for the zone.  I've mentioned elsewhere that I think the crux of it for me is that GW2 still clearly denotes your progress and still gives you a con against mobs that are a certain level.  There's no confusion about the power level of the mobs you're facing.  Maybe that takes a bit of the surprise away, but I find the combat enjoyable enough to make up for that.

    I dunno, I never thought I would enjoy GW2 as well as I have been the past few weeks.  Something about the feel of ESO scaling is off-putting to me.   :/

    image
  • RoguewizRoguewiz Member UncommonPosts: 711
    Kilsin said:
    We are not instancing or level scaling, we will have a Mentor system that allows players of different levels to lower themselves to the lowest level player to group up and play together at appropriate levels, it is optional and just a way for high level players to play with low level friends/family and new players without steamrolling everything.
    Nice.  This was actually one of the better systems from City of Heroes.  Glad Pantheon is doing it.
    Kilsin

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 515
    Mendel said:
    Kilsin said:
    We are not instancing or level scaling, we will have a Mentor system that allows players of different levels to lower themselves to the lowest level player to group up and play together at appropriate levels, it is optional and just a way for high level players to play with low level friends/family and new players without steamrolling everything.
    EQ1 tried to do the exact same thing with the Shroud system.  It was a pretty dismal failure, and broke immersion quite dramatically.   There isn't a description of how it will work, only vagueness.  Will a mentor system be something useful and desirable, or more of a placebo?  I don't know, I won't be able to know how it works until there are reliable reports.  Kilsin should be in a position to maybe have some inside information, but once again reports only marketing pablum.  The single sentence above could easily have been applied to a the Shroud system before it was released, too.

    To anyone following this project, just be prepared for the implementation to be something other than you are expecting.

    It isn't the shroud system, think more VG Mentoring in the later stages when it worked properly. We have learned from both of those games and more over the years and will create a system that works well for our game.
    [Deleted User]MrMelGibson
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,196
    edited September 2017
    Scaling is just another gimmick feature that has set the mmo genre back.   

    Hearing people endorse this BS makes me think of  Dolph Ziggler from WWE that keeps saying how people like gimmicks. 

    So this is what its come to.

    Anyone can do what they did. ;)









    TheScavenger
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Torval said:
    svann said:
    Torval said:
     I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. .
    I dont know how we can make any simpler. 

    They arent doing level scaling.

    Stay in school, bro.
    If you read the entire post you'd see that I said so in the part you edited out so you could try and have an instructional relevant point in this thread. You failed.

    Here, let me spell out what I already said to you in really simple terms.

    They aren't doing level scaling, they'll probably do mentoring. I seriously doubt they could pull off level scaling because only one team has done it well. So they're going for the old mentoring. Great, that's about as interesting as paint drying.
    Agreed about all but the last paragraph.  You went from opinion to trying to sound like an authority on it.

    Not sure what beef you have against mentor systems, or why it's any less interesting than having mobs tailored for you.

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    svann said:
    Torval said:
     I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. .
    I dont know how we can make any simpler. 

    They arent doing level scaling.

    Stay in school, bro.
    If you read the entire post you'd see that I said so in the part you edited out so you could try and have an instructional relevant point in this thread. You failed.

    Here, let me spell out what I already said to you in really simple terms.

    They aren't doing level scaling, they'll probably do mentoring. I seriously doubt they could pull off level scaling because only one team has done it well. So they're going for the old mentoring. Great, that's about as interesting as paint drying.
    Agreed about all but the last paragraph.  You went from opinion to trying to sound like an authority on it.

    Not sure what beef you have against mentor systems, or why it's any less interesting than having mobs tailored for you.

    It's just hard to do well. Some technical things are hard and make it hard to translate into a seamless experience. You said yourself current offerings leave a lot of room for improvement.  It would take a lot more money, a lot more time, and likely a bigger team. I just don't think they have what it takes to pull that off. They could retool to accommodate for that, but I don't see that happening.

    Mentoring is predictable and a bandaid to a design flaw. It was a great fix for the day once the issue reared its ugly head, but it's a horrible long term approach to level integration. Why bring along all the problems that come with mentoring into a new game with an open slate.

    I think it's one of those things that will come back later. It's certainly not a deal breaker for me. I'll play the game and find the fun where it's at, but I think it's a mistake.
    I understand your reasoning, just not sure I can agree that the system will inherently determine the severity of the flaws or what they specifically are.


    I feel like the details of the implementation have a larger effect.  And, to some extent, player preference comes into play.  Kano hates scaling of any kind, I disdain boosting in any way.  Iselin enjoys full scaling ala ESO and the Elder Scrolls singleplayer series, and you seem to agree with Iselin.  I don't think any of us are wrong about it.  That said, I also understand and agree with your point about a small team attempting to do something this complex with their content.
    dcutbi001MrMelGibson

    image
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    DMKano said:
    Torval said:
    This thread speaks volumes:
    -- MMO gamers don't like innovation no matter what they say
    -- MMO gamers don't like challenge as much as they claim
    -- MMO gamers don't value immersion as much as they claim either

    Without level scaling characters trivialize mobs at the 8th or 9th level delta. So all old content is easy and trivialized. So that throws the love of challenge argument out the window. The amusing irony here is that this sort of level disparity is what will make soloing possible.

    Don't worry. I seriously doubt this team will pull off level scaling. Arena Net can barely do it. ZoS is the only studio that's done it well. It's not easy. I'm pretty sure they'll go for the easy out which is a downscaling "mentor" system. Talk about a lack of ambition and imagination. I hope that's not true, but I suspect it's so.

    I know that when it comes to games - I am a huge sucker for vertical progression - which yes is a flawed system.

    As dumb as it is at it's core - I love to see small numbers get huge and my crap stats become ridiculous at max level.

    I love to see most of the game completely trivialized for my character at a max level - again I know that this is flawed, but I love MMOs that do this. This gives me a sense of "completion" and also a feeling of that I've done and seen all there is to do and can freely move on to other games until new content gets added.

    Figuring out the most efficient way to gain XP and max out - that's probably my main motivator other than PvP (if PvP exists and is implemented well). But for PvE only game - it's all about figuring out best MIN/MAX methods for crushing the game content in the fastest time possible. - This allows for more time to play other games.

    I do want more of the same - at least I am honest about it and aware of my shallow expectations from MMOs.


    Well I think this is what PvE is about. I didn't know it is considered shallow! :| what is the meaningful alternative? 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,771
    edited September 2017
    DMKano said:
    The OP is mistaken about Pantheon.

    I abhor level scaling in PvE, its the main reason I cant stand GW2 and ESO PvE.

    Any MMO that has level scaling.... I have zero interest.

    Good thing Pantheon isnt doing that crap.

    I am a huge fan of swarming and mass killing lower level areas when you get mad gear and are in godmode basically.
    Empty zones and crushing baby seals should always be a thing!

    oh, wait it's an eSport! I forgot it's the internet.
    MMORPGs aren't easy, You're just too PRO!
This discussion has been closed.