Mobs move around instead of standing in a non realistic fashion just waiting to be clicked.Eco system,mobs need to eat just as we do,mobs fight and kill each other just as we fight them.Seasons that have an impact,weather that has an impact,elements as we may need warmer clothes or more fluids to drink,food which has a more meaningful impact and not just OOC which has never made sense. We need to survive therefor we need homes,hunting,crafting etc etc,i hope this gets the point across. Most games do not come even close to creating an actual plausible RPG world and elements,instead most feel like lazy generated worlds with a login screen and dungeons for looting. This is why i rate the games so low because they are NOT good quality mmorpg's,in most cases not even close and why i sigh at all these horrible reviews/previews i see from what seems like people with no clue about what role playing stands for or what the world SHOULD be like.Instead it seems and why i said it a long time ago,most grew up with Wow,the anti rpg and think that is what mmorpg's should be like,they are WRONG.
I am not going to say you shouldn't play Wow or similar clones but i do not accept people calling them good mmorpg's,they are simply a login screen with connect the dots elements and looting,nothing more.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Everyones experience will differ of course Torv , mine all those games i go back to or currently play because all the newer games dont offer for ex.. Even 1/3 the player activities in a game like UO ..
Well , i also think the problem for many players and why these games are Niche now .. Is the simple fact is that they take dedication , have a higher learning curve , and truly require social interaction .. Todays players want instant gratification , jump in easy play , and the ability to socialize as little as possible , Hence why they arent as popular now ..
Many of todays gamers , think they want that Living World Experrience till they Experience it , then run back to one of these newer games that offer little resitance for them and there play style
and as a side note .. Origin System slogan for UO was " We Create Worlds" and EQ "Your in Our World" etc ..
so these games were created and promoted with that in mind
We both made some points and I do agree with a lot of what your write, but the point that people don't actually want virtual worlds, even though they say they do, stands out to me. I think the point can extrapolated out and cover most every situation in gaming where players say they want one thing and mean another, but is especially fitting for "virtual world" and "innovation".
After reading the responses in the CS poo thread here: forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/468041/characters-will-need-to-poop-in-star-citizen
I wonder if people want virtual world features at all. Maybe it's just so cool to make ignorant comments about CS/CIG or to use those threads as the "edgy post platform" that a quality discussion is impossible so I thought I'd partially bring that over here. I don't want to focus on SC and how everyone hates it, but rather does adding those sorts of reality aspects add to a virtual world if they're done sensibly. What does sensible mean in the context of virtual worlds?
And then I'd like to discuss the reactions in that thread as they pertain to virtual worlds. Given the lack of quality in those comments can the average gamer even handle systems that add depth to a virtual world? Can socially difficult or potentially awkward subjects work well within the context of a virtual world. I'm not talking about poo jokes here, that was to be expected to a degree, but that's as far as it went outside of vehemently rejecting the idea and hyperbolic ridicule.
So can these things be implemented in a game without distracting? Can the be done well and what does that even mean? Is the general playerbase at large just not mature or interested in superficial gameplay? I don't agree that everyone wants instant gratification as much as I think they mainly want superficial game play.
Your thoughts and reflections on this would interest me.
The Sims did a really good job with biological functions. I'd like to see a bit more of that kind of simulation incorporated into MMORPGs, but maybe not at that micro level. Overall sanitation and cleanliness could easily be applicable to one's social standing, and a major criteria for NPC reactions. "Be sure to clean up after disemboweling those orcs, or you they won't let you in Mrs. Wellington's Garden Party tonight." Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile. Easy to implement as a cost.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile. Easy to implement as a cost.
But the question is .. is it fun, and whether players will be turned off and play something else.
It is certainly easy to implement eating .. that dated back to the first Ultima series. But you don't see a lot of games requiring eating, because it is simply a chore.
Every adventurer needs a quick bath and clean clothes every once in awhile. Easy to implement as a cost.
But the question is .. is it fun, and whether players will be turned off and play something else.
It is certainly easy to implement eating .. that dated back to the first Ultima series. But you don't see a lot of games requiring eating, because it is simply a chore.
Fun is a highly subjective thing. For the longest time, the best selling computer game in the world was Microsoft's Flight Simulator. Some found it fun, enough to make the proverbial boatloads of money. Maybe not so popular with the acrophobia community.
Perhaps if the developers approached an MMORPG as a simulation of a fantasy-based world rather than a game, the resultant interfaces *might* be more interesting or 'fun' for different players. Or at least as 'fun' as operating an e-control on an e-cockpit console. An attempt to simulate a fantasy-based world would almost certainly fit the definition of a 'living-breathing world' that is the topic of this thread, if that weren't an overriding design philosophy from the start.
There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1. That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Fun is a highly subjective thing. There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1. That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.
Yes and Yes.
But the question is whether enough players find eating food fun in a MMO. Not that strategic games are super popular these days.
And sure, even WoW has food. But WoW does not require the chore of eating. That should tell you something.
What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun.
I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.
Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life.
As I pointed out last time you made this ridiculous argument "Going poop" is the standard argument everyone gives against food mechanics. However very few people who want food mechanics push for pooping mechanics. Food mechanics can provide challenge and depth if well implemented. Pooping mechanics are pretty much always tedious (Or just stupid like the occasional pooping sound in Ark).
Your argument is about as original and intelligent as a girl in yoga pants and uggs sipping on a Starbucks latte.
It amazes me how few people have suggested eve, yes there are 'dev crafted' but the majority of the universe comes from players choices, some of the (so called) worst aspects of the game isn't something that the devs considered when the game was made, the universe map is changing, and only recently has changed again because of 1 players choice. THere isn't another game out there that has had such an impact, a single player can have an impact on 1000s of players because of his decision. Any player can do this, yes you might need wealth or fame, but it can be done. Want to be nice you can be make yourself a name. But in terms of scrips there are few to none.
Another term that has been a victim of the changing times. To be honest the term originated and gained popularity from around the time of SWG launched, as the devs at SOE used it to describe their game. "Living Breathing Star Wars Universe" Anyone who comes here and says it refers to games like WoW is full of shit and for the most part hasn't been around long enough to know what the term is really referring to. In fact I think those folks who even mentioned WoW in the same breath should be slapped with a rubber hose.
In actuality it is in reference to QoL or "Quality of life" (Sandbox virtual worlds) features that allow you to literally "live" within the game or virtual world and have a life within it. While you can play within a world, World of Warcraft offers none of those things we could consider QoL features. It's just a game, and not a full fledged sandbox.
It amazes me how few people have suggested eve, yes there are 'dev crafted' but the majority of the universe comes from players choices, some of the (so called) worst aspects of the game isn't something that the devs considered when the game was made, the universe map is changing, and only recently has changed again because of 1 players choice. THere isn't another game out there that has had such an impact, a single player can have an impact on 1000s of players because of his decision. Any player can do this, yes you might need wealth or fame, but it can be done. Want to be nice you can be make yourself a name. But in terms of scrips there are few to none.
Lol, I think it have to do with the "living breathing" world sounds wrong in space.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A fully living breathing world mmorpg was never made, but there are mmorpgs that leans more towards one than others, and that kind is what is referred to. Some keys: - Persistant shared world; No instances unless it really makes sense, all events happens for anyone (ex: a quest npc can get killed and others can't turn in quest, a quest npc need 5 tusks and when handed he will not accept from others) - Persistant time; The world passes time on its own, and things happen in the world regardless of players being online or not. (ex: skeletons appear in the graveyard at 1am, the mystic trader starts his walk on fridays in the afternoon and reaches the inn in the evening and dissapear till next friday). - World is the center, not the player; Events does not evolve around the player like story driven themeparks, instead the player is a visitor and actor in the world and its events. The world is environment and rules and the player is free to act within these, which is why these games are to a degree a sandbox(sandpark whatever) - Best example of this are EqPre2005 vs WoW (still so many don't get these two games are vastly different in design philosophy). I guess some other earlier mmorpgs also lean towards virtual world. In recent history, EqNext was (on paper at least) going to be the most living breathing world to date.
The point is even though there are no actual living breathing (virtual) worlds, the difference in design of those that lean towards it and those that doesn't makes those mmorpgs very different. Again depends on what you find important and defining for a mmorpg, if you focus on other things of course living breathing world is an unimportant concept and so it must be nostalgia.
Living breathing worlds was what players 15 years ago thought mmorpgs would turn into, and as mmorpgs turned further and further away from this, the living breathing world became a dream of what could have been.... That part of the nostalgia argument is true, we still hope and dream.
Living breathing world... what is commonly referred to as the 'honeymoon period'... when players actually enjoy what they are playing before they begin to nitpick it to death.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Very rarely have any sort of survival mechanics - food, weight, rest, sleep, hydration, etc been implemented in any sort of interesting way.
Very rarely has anything been implemented in an interesting way however the constant need for food actually is well implemented in most survival games or survival MMOs like Wurm. When starting out staying fed is your primary concern while as you develop it becomes increasingly easy to deal with.
This mimics true survival situations or the development of human civilization. Once food is dealt with you have increasing time for other ventures like building complex civilizations with art and the capability to wage drawn out wars with complex weaponry.
I think the only thing I would personally change about it is I would make the actual eating mechanic automatic as long as you have food in your inventory. Probably a specific slot you can put it in to enable auto-eating. That would remove 90% of all tediousness from the system.
I think having food is very good for three important reasons though:
1. Consumables are exceptionally good for the health of economy. 2. Farming/Cooking are two of the most popular professions people enjoy taking. Without the need for food these professions are useless. You're cutting out entire professions people love to play because people like nauri equate it to "pooping". 3. In games where you actually go on long journeys and expeditions I personally find the need to provide for food very immersive and game enhancing.
What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun.
I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.
Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life.
How quickly you jump to the extreme to attempt to prove a point!
and how quickly you avoid logic and reasoning. Torval said " any game system implementation can be tedious or fun."
So "any" includes, clearly, a "have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system". In fact, his statement includes the extreme examples, which I rightly pointed out, cannot be made fun.
Unless, of course, you find a way to make going to toilet frequently fun. I am all ears!
What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun.
I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.
Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life.
How quickly you jump to the extreme to attempt to prove a point!
and how quickly you avoid logic and reasoning. Torval said " any game system implementation can be tedious or fun."
So "any" includes, clearly, a "have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system". In fact, his statement includes the extreme examples, which I rightly pointed out, cannot be made fun.
Unless, of course, you find a way to make going to toilet frequently fun. I am all ears!
What you seems to be vigorously sidestepping and avoiding is that any game system implementation can be tedious or fun.
I would love to see how you can make a have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system in a MMO or RPG fun.
Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life.
How quickly you jump to the extreme to attempt to prove a point!
and how quickly you avoid logic and reasoning. Torval said " any game system implementation can be tedious or fun."
So "any" includes, clearly, a "have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system". In fact, his statement includes the extreme examples, which I rightly pointed out, cannot be made fun.
Unless, of course, you find a way to make going to toilet frequently fun. I am all ears!
Well thanks, Captain Obvious!
He want fun **** then , just mini game drop the **** right in the water hole while butt shake left and right to get the achievement . Chose the among of water for the right **** **** jackpot machine
He want **** fun then sure , let play with **** hahaha . **** don't insult human by asking how you going to make things fun .
Comments
Eve online. 90% of what is worth in that game is made by players.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
We need to survive therefor we need homes,hunting,crafting etc etc,i hope this gets the point across.
Most games do not come even close to creating an actual plausible RPG world and elements,instead most feel like lazy generated worlds with a login screen and dungeons for looting.
This is why i rate the games so low because they are NOT good quality mmorpg's,in most cases not even close and why i sigh at all these horrible reviews/previews i see from what seems like people with no clue about what role playing stands for or what the world SHOULD be like.Instead it seems and why i said it a long time ago,most grew up with Wow,the anti rpg and think that is what mmorpg's should be like,they are WRONG.
I am not going to say you shouldn't play Wow or similar clones but i do not accept people calling them good mmorpg's,they are simply a login screen with connect the dots elements and looting,nothing more.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It is certainly easy to implement eating .. that dated back to the first Ultima series. But you don't see a lot of games requiring eating, because it is simply a chore.
Perhaps if the developers approached an MMORPG as a simulation of a fantasy-based world rather than a game, the resultant interfaces *might* be more interesting or 'fun' for different players. Or at least as 'fun' as operating an e-control on an e-cockpit console. An attempt to simulate a fantasy-based world would almost certainly fit the definition of a 'living-breathing world' that is the topic of this thread, if that weren't an overriding design philosophy from the start.
There's plenty of games that focus on food, from Civilization to EQ1. That's an easier aspect to incorporate into a strategy game, based on the number of TBS and RTS games that use this concept.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
But the question is whether enough players find eating food fun in a MMO. Not that strategic games are super popular these days.
And sure, even WoW has food. But WoW does not require the chore of eating. That should tell you something.
Until then, i will only enjoy that "activity" in real life.
Your argument is about as original and intelligent as a girl in yoga pants and uggs sipping on a Starbucks latte.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
THere isn't another game out there that has had such an impact, a single player can have an impact on 1000s of players because of his decision. Any player can do this, yes you might need wealth or fame, but it can be done. Want to be nice you can be make yourself a name. But in terms of scrips there are few to none.
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
In actuality it is in reference to QoL or "Quality of life" (Sandbox virtual worlds) features that allow you to literally "live" within the game or virtual world and have a life within it. While you can play within a world, World of Warcraft offers none of those things we could consider QoL features. It's just a game, and not a full fledged sandbox.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Persistant shared world; No instances unless it really makes sense, all events happens for anyone (ex: a quest npc can get killed and others can't turn in quest, a quest npc need 5 tusks and when handed he will not accept from others)
- Persistant time; The world passes time on its own, and things happen in the world regardless of players being online or not. (ex: skeletons appear in the graveyard at 1am, the mystic trader starts his walk on fridays in the afternoon and reaches the inn in the evening and dissapear till next friday).
- World is the center, not the player; Events does not evolve around the player like story driven themeparks, instead the player is a visitor and actor in the world and its events.
The world is environment and rules and the player is free to act within these, which is why these games are to a degree a sandbox(sandpark whatever) - Best example of this are EqPre2005 vs WoW (still so many don't get these two games are vastly different in design philosophy). I guess some other earlier mmorpgs also lean towards virtual world. In recent history, EqNext was (on paper at least) going to be the most living breathing world to date.
The point is even though there are no actual living breathing (virtual) worlds, the difference in design of those that lean towards it and those that doesn't makes those mmorpgs very different. Again depends on what you find important and defining for a mmorpg, if you focus on other things of course living breathing world is an unimportant concept and so it must be nostalgia.
Living breathing worlds was what players 15 years ago thought mmorpgs would turn into, and as mmorpgs turned further and further away from this, the living breathing world became a dream of what could have been.... That part of the nostalgia argument is true, we still hope and dream.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This mimics true survival situations or the development of human civilization. Once food is dealt with you have increasing time for other ventures like building complex civilizations with art and the capability to wage drawn out wars with complex weaponry.
I think the only thing I would personally change about it is I would make the actual eating mechanic automatic as long as you have food in your inventory. Probably a specific slot you can put it in to enable auto-eating. That would remove 90% of all tediousness from the system.
I think having food is very good for three important reasons though:
1. Consumables are exceptionally good for the health of economy.
2. Farming/Cooking are two of the most popular professions people enjoy taking. Without the need for food these professions are useless. You're cutting out entire professions people love to play because people like nauri equate it to "pooping".
3. In games where you actually go on long journeys and expeditions I personally find the need to provide for food very immersive and game enhancing.
So "any" includes, clearly, a "have-to-go-to-toilet-every-5-min system". In fact, his statement includes the extreme examples, which I rightly pointed out, cannot be made fun.
Unless, of course, you find a way to make going to toilet frequently fun. I am all ears!
Chose the among of water for the right ****
**** jackpot machine
He want **** fun then sure , let play with **** hahaha . **** don't insult human by asking how you going to make things fun .