What I normally see in MMORPGs are Humans trying to break out and explore and they tend to meet the elves. I hardly see people in a major story playing from an Elven point of view.
Remember, most games we pick our character and now everyone starts together. Truth is that the story is usually thought of from the point of view of a human being. In games like Lineage 2 and Guild Wars 2, the player started in their racial hometown and were able to take start quests to see the world from their racial point of view for a limited time.
Most of the time humans are the protagonists and they take it upon themselves to meet and unify the races to fight some large evil. Even when the player picks to be a member of a different race, they still go from the point of view of what a human would think and act.
At least Guild Wars 2 made it so that Humans were not so superior. The other races had their own territory along with their own history and power level. It wasn't a world were 50%+ were human beings and every other race was minor...at least in its current standing.
I see Elf Fantasies became more popular with people trying to cash in on Lord of the Rings... I mean they even put Legolas in The Hobbit movies... Don't think he was in the book. Look at "HISHE (How it should have ended)" for the Hobbit movies. Those are pretty funny.
Just an example:
I can pick out to be a Female Cyclops (with a racial story as the mortal enemy of humans) and when I start the game, I will be in the first town with an NPC saying "Oh them cyclops are ready to raid us, but we are protected within a field" and before you know it...
I am some renegade cyclops destroying my own kind in the middle of a flower field. Not exactly what I signed on for.....
So people going for the pretty, immortal and wise elves. How surprising. And boring. Tolkien style elves are utterly boring. WoW male elves are funny (to laugh at) though for being this weird mix of a Tolkien elf and Hulk Hogan.
I prefer Terry Pratchett's elves. Not that I would want to be one though.
There's a quite good assessment of the fantasy races in "The Noob" comic...
They forgot a race that's either a straight humanoid animal or a race of all female gendered lolis with some kind of animal ears and tail.
Clearly they skipped the Korean MMOs.
Oh no, every MMO pretty much as long as it has a racial selection that isn't just variations on human like EVE or isn't based on older book series like LotRO.
WoW you have your Tauran, Pandaran and Worgen. Crowfall you have your Elken, Minotaur, and Geunican. SWTOR has it's Cathar. You have the Maharim in Darkfall. The Charr in GW2. Firran in ArcheAge.
Animal type races are one of the most common cliches in MMOs.
Not complaining just curious. Other themes: Space-Science-Fiction, Crime-Stealth, Mythology-Gods, Survival-Environment, Auto-Racing, Abstract-Construction, Historical-Fiction-(Medieval, Western, Urban, etc), Superhero-Comic, Zombie-Apocalypse, Cyber-Steampunk, Martial-Arts-Orient, Dinosaurs-Creatures, Home-Management, Puzzle-Solving, Chat-Room-Social-Dating, Action-Adventure-Exploration, Horror-Dystopia, Nature-Utopia, Anime-Drama, Mystery-Cloak-n-Dagger, Politics-Governing, Comedy-Satire, Music-Creative-Arts, Tragedy-Occult, etc.
Out of all the rp genres mmorpgs can be what makes elf-fantasy (also called Sword-n-Sorcery or Heroic-Fantasy) the highest chosen?
I understand your point and @Phry provided the best answer I suppose. But, elf-fantasy has got nothing to do with Sword and Sorcery or Heroic Fantasy. As in, it is not also called...
Tolkien made elves and orcs popular. Many grabbed those races in their fantasy worlds.
I think for me, that Tolkien was the most influencing, i first encountered his books back in the 70's, i had just started secondary school and the school library had a few complete sets of the Lord of the Rings, i don't know how many times i read them, but that i think marked my 'entry' into the whole fantasy genre including everything from Robert E Howards books to John Normans rather more 'provocative' fantasy series, since i still read a huge amount of books, although my wife has long since banned me from buying physical books due to 'volume' my kindle library is probably fairly large. But it was Tolkien who ultimately shaped my conceptions of what Elves are, and fantasy worlds in general.
Yep for me add to your list Draganlance novels, Gor, Death Dealer books (prisoner of the horned helmet) by James Silke. There was one book I read that I can not for the life of me remember the name, it had floating ships and realms with pirate like mean elves in it.
I'm fairly sure it's how they look. For me it was always easy to relate to the D&D style elves because they were thin, agile, relied on finesse, and liked to live in isolation. This is similar to me in real life. I've never been the big and strong type.
When I think about Elves in retrospect they are really nothing like me other than that. For instance, they live at one with nature and are a bit haughty. I guess I am a little bit haughty, but overall I associate myself more with the bottom tear of society rather than the top tier. I can enjoy lewd humor for instance. I guess it depends on the depiction of the Elves. In the Hobbit cartoon, the High Elves were depicted as drinking and making silly jokes. The Wood Elves were similar and had a much different depiction in terms of how they looked.
I think I most closely relate to humans in stories and how they are depicted. I guess that makes sense as I am one.
I always like dwarves in stories, but I never want to play as one. I think they are more like the comic relief in most cases sadly. I was watching a show recently on Amazon called Journey Quest I believe. In season 3 there was a female dwarf who was somewhat portrayed as both sexy and funny. I guess in the end she still ended up as the comic relief while the skinny and pretty elf ends up as one of the main characters and a love interest.
Speaking of which that is something that really bothers me in today's shows. I always enjoyed playing the roguish, arrogant, and skinny male swashbuckler types. In today's shows women take over pretty much all those roles, but IMO they aren't nearly as fun in them. They should have women playing as warriors and other types instead. Many men are naturally rogueish and do a better job in that regard.
So summing up your answers it is a combination of excessive historical exposure and sex sells. And you are right. The leading competitor is science fiction which is not as old and grounded because obviously we have not been living in the technological age that long. Perhaps 2000yrs from now twi'leks will have a fanatical resurgence. Until then, long live the master race!
That's the true progression. Other forms of elves are more like a cousin species. Like say a chimpanzee to humans. We aren't descended from them, they just split off from our ancestors at a certain point.
Norse elves were said to be beautiful, and could even be what some Vikings became after death. Also, ironically, I don't think pointy ears were a thing (Could be wrong on that one.)
So while elves are one of my least favorite fantasy races, their origins are actually a lot cooler than the androgynous twigs they have become. And as much as I hate WoW, it's actually a lot truer to the origins than most depictions.
Also, unlike the picture would suggest, Tolkien elves were tall. D&D elves are short. So that height progression is way off.
Why is everyone forgetting Warhammer Elves? One of best editions thereof.
Warhammer elves are very, very similar to DnD ones though...
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By "Elf Fantasy" I think you mean medieval(ish) fantasy setting. But yes OP you are right so lets look at why that is king.
Players like to identify with their avatars. That means humanoids are in, dinosaurs etc are out. A minority of players don't mind playing "aliens", but and I will say this only once, MMOs are made for the largest common denominator. Bring that back to mind every time you wonder why something is not to your liking in a MMO.
This is why Elves are so popular, they look very human, more human than Orcs. So why not Hobbits you say? They look like little people? Players don't want to play short, usually stout avatars. Yes a minority do, but see the last paragraph.
So other races tend to be quite human like and often exaggerate features that we want to have. Tallness, musculature, facial symmetry etc.
Why medieval? The genre of fantasy is mostly like that and led MMOs to do the same. And what you immediately can get a handle on is what gaming companies want to produce. Science Fiction is harder because the setting is not as immediately familiar. Of course if you do Star Trek you don't have that problem so much, but you do know there are people who have not watched Star Trek right? We don't want to put them off so lets do another swords and sorcerer MMO with humans and elves.
It kills creativity but then gaming and MMOs have had other higher priorities than that for many years now. Creativity is only allowed inside the envelope of what sells. The days of doing something creative and relying on that to create an audience for game are rarely found outside of indie. And indie is not exactly immune to the problem.
So summing up your answers it is a combination of excessive historical exposure and sex sells. And you are right. The leading competitor is science fiction which is not as old and grounded because obviously we have not been living in the technological age that long. Perhaps 2000yrs from now twi'leks will have a fanatical resurgence. Until then, long live the master race!
Loved this, but just to say D&D Elves are smaller than Tolkien Elves, but other rpg's soon rectified that "mistake" and made them as tall or taller.
There's a number of factors when you get right down to it. From Psychology to sex-appeal and how they're portrayed.
Alright, History Lesson, time.
The Elves (Aelfr), the Dokkalfar and Ljosalfar (Dark Elves and Light Elves respectively) are derived from Norse Mythology. They were effectively Demi-Gods with Radiant Beauty and Everlasting Life.
Around the same time, there was another Culture with a similar Mythology. In Irish/ScottishGaelic Mythology, there too, was a race of Radiant, beautiful, Opal Colored Demi-God or Olympian-like Gods that were called the Tuatha De Dannan, (Pronounced Tu-aH-ha dAY Dahnnun. I'm looking at you, Mark Jacobs and Curt Shilling. Not TuaTHA. ) Or the Aos Si which were, for simplicity, The Fey, Faeries, or sometimes commonly called 'The Fair Folk.'
They did have their differences in their portrayals. I believe there was more written lore on the Fair Folk, though.
When J.R.R Tolkien created the stereotypical 'Tolkein Elf' he used his Cultural and historical know-how and badassery to blend parts of both the Aos Si and the Ljosalfar. And it was a huge success for generations to come.
He created a deep, rich lore about proud, beautiful, noble, beings of epic proportion on their way out to make room for the more adaptable species of Man. A poetic and Tragic tale that has since been beaten into the ground a billion times. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a gaming and roleplaying and even MMO standpoint, they have a number of things going for them.
> They Have Desirable Traits: They often are portrayed as beautiful and fair. Even the Dark Elf Variants. Any Good DM/GM, however, can and WILL use this against them. Some people will say only insecure sociopaths, people who are't happy with their own self worth, or the excessively vain are concerned about this. I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think there needs to be a reason to want to play an attractive character. Unless your DM is an ass like me who can use it against you.
> They often live for a very long time or don't expire at all. As humans who grown and age and learn of our own mortality through life, Immortality has always been that long desired and sought after holy grail. Imagine being able to experience all the pleasures of life without ever having a Mid-Life crisis. Again, this too, can be used against players. Eg. Dorian Gray complex. Life could become boring and callous.
> They're human-like enough to be easy to role-play.
> They have beneficial traits that open up opportunities. Elves are often portrayed as being graceful, nimble, swift and agile with a heightened awareness or wisdom and attunement to life and magical arts. This allows them to fill just about any role.
> As fighting types: Instead of relying on brute strength and raging temper tantrums to win their battles such as barbarians or battleragers, They outskill their opponents with greater agility and a keen mind, and supplementing their martial prowess with inherent magical ability. The martial types are usually shown as having an almost Samurai level of discipline to them. Except they can train with a sword for 100 years instead of just 10. Which, provides more Roleplay Food.
> As magical types, with their increased or inherent magical capabilities, they often excel at these roles or have an advantage (Which gives them versatility or Potency)
So there really isn't a role they can't fulfill in some manner or another. Anything they can't brute their way through, they can generally think their way through.
This creates a lot of appeal, honestly. A character who can study an art for hundreds of years, reaching the pinnacle of a discipline that a human generally can't reach before expiring naturally. A character that can experience several generations and lifetimes of other beings. A character that pretty much has their limiter broken by some means, provided there's enough time.
I play all sorts of races in RPGs, but have always liked elves the most, honestly. Probably because I liked them when I was a little kid reading Lord of the Rings and getting in to D&D going "Oh Man! I can make an Elf who is a sword master who studied for 100 years and is like a super ninja samurai and he swings 2 swords at once because he's that awesome." I had his whole backstory planned out and a roadmap laid out for him.
That character never made it past level 4.
I think for me, now a days, is that I like a character that can maintain control and control the fight. And I have found Elves best at that because they can specialize or be very versatile. I've also always favored grace, finesse, cunning and tactics over brute force.
Alright, maybe some it is still being a fanboy haha.
I think Tolkien did make elves what they are today... Don't really know the history 100% but it seems to me that more often than not elves used to be smaller humanoids closer to leprechauns and pixies than humans in size. Keebler elfs for example?Tolkien and then D&D made them more what they are today in MMOs.
That said, elf or high fantasy is just better than anything else out there imo, even despite being what some might call overplayed lately. I for one hate when it is polluted with modern technology/steampunk crap. Especially Steampunk crap. That should be an entirely different genre imo.
Well, Game of Thrones is most likely the most popular fantasy franchise right now, and it does not involves a single elf... It's just heroic fantasy that is popular. People happen to enjoy epic stories about heroes, swords, sorcery, princesses and dragons. Has always been.
Eh game of thrones has the children of the forest, which is basically elves. Some could argue that they are more dryads/naiads etc I guess, but I'd say elves or halfway between.
I think Tolkien did make elves what they are today... Don't really know the history 100% but it seems to me that more often than not elves used to be smaller humanoids closer to leprechauns and pixies than humans in size. Keebler elfs for example?Tolkien and then D&D made them more what they are today in MMOs.
That said, elf or high fantasy is just better than anything else out there imo, even despite being what some might call overplayed lately. I for one hate when it is polluted with modern technology/steampunk crap. Especially Steampunk crap. That should be an entirely different genre imo.
In ancient times, Elves were portrayed as being as tall (or sometimes taller) than Men. Some creatures in Faerie have always been portrayed as being smaller than humans, but not Elves. Elves (and the Fey in general) shrank as people's imaginations shrank, but this was most pronounced in how the French treated them. Eventually, "Faeries" were found in buttercups and fought with wasp stingers as swords...
Tolkien restored Elves to what they had been previously.
As an aside: I challenge anyone to find anything, anywhere in any work of Tolkien published during Tolkien's lifetime, where he describes Elves (or Hobbits) as having pointed ears. You certainly won't find anything in the Hobbit or LotR.
I think Tolkien did make elves what they are today... Don't really know the history 100% but it seems to me that more often than not elves used to be smaller humanoids closer to leprechauns and pixies than humans in size. Keebler elfs for example?Tolkien and then D&D made them more what they are today in MMOs.
That said, elf or high fantasy is just better than anything else out there imo, even despite being what some might call overplayed lately. I for one hate when it is polluted with modern technology/steampunk crap. Especially Steampunk crap. That should be an entirely different genre imo.
In ancient times, Elves were portrayed as being as tall (or sometimes taller) than Men. Some creatures in Faerie have always been portrayed as being smaller than humans, but not Elves. Elves (and the Fey in general) shrank as people's imaginations shrank, but this was most pronounced in how the French treated them. Eventually, "Faeries" were found in buttercups and fought with wasp stingers as swords...
Tolkien restored Elves to what they had been previously.
As an aside: I challenge anyone to find anything, anywhere in any work of Tolkien published during Tolkien's lifetime, where he describes Elves (or Hobbits) as having pointed ears. You certainly won't find anything in the Hobbit or LotR.
He never said they didn't have pointed ears either. The assumption and debate is based on mythology he based the elves on which were often described with pointy ears. Maybe he decided to leave that open to reader interpretation, and despite what many fans think his works, conceptions, and versions have inconsistencies across the years.
That's a great find. I always thought they did because that's how I pictured them. I think if the Professor care enough one way or the other he would have stated so more clearly. He wasn't usually ambiguous about things he considered relevant and as a writer, in addition to a linguist and historian, I think he understood the importance of letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. It's a main reason why good literature is so compelling and timeless in my opinion. It lets the reader take some ownership of the narrative.
As that article points out "elves" is a generic term covering more than one group.
Another consideration that Tolkien didn't seem to comment much on was elven skin color. They're always (or nearly so) portrayed as white skinned, but Tolkien didn't comment on that much either. He described a few elves specifically but not the race in general other than to say, as Sovrath's link above states, they're nearly indistinguishable from humans. It would make sense that they have a variety of skin tones. There's a lot that Tolkien left unsaid unfortunately.
The conclusion from the linked article reads:
"In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. "
But I now understand why I've seen elf illustrations which displayed their ears as looking just like tree leaves.
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That's a great find. I always thought they did because that's how I pictured them. I think if the Professor care enough one way or the other he would have stated so more clearly. He wasn't usually ambiguous about things he considered relevant and as a writer, in addition to a linguist and historian, I think he understood the importance of letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. It's a main reason why good literature is so compelling and timeless in my opinion. It lets the reader take some ownership of the narrative.
As that article points out "elves" is a generic term covering more than one group.
Another consideration that Tolkien didn't seem to comment much on was elven skin color. They're always (or nearly so) portrayed as white skinned, but Tolkien didn't comment on that much either. He described a few elves specifically but not the race in general other than to say, as Sovrath's link above states, they're nearly indistinguishable from humans. It would make sense that they have a variety of skin tones. There's a lot that Tolkien left unsaid unfortunately.
The conclusion from the linked article reads:
"In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. "
But I now understand why I've seen elf illustrations which displayed their ears as looking just like tree leaves.
The whole thing stems from a Tolkien quote where he referred to their ears as "leaf shaped."
As to "indistinguishable from human" I fail to see what that "proves" about their ears considering the large differences in the morphology of humans around the world. I'd say distinctive pointy ears are no different than distinctive eyes or noses in real humans.
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That's a great find. I always thought they did because that's how I pictured them. I think if the Professor care enough one way or the other he would have stated so more clearly. He wasn't usually ambiguous about things he considered relevant and as a writer, in addition to a linguist and historian, I think he understood the importance of letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. It's a main reason why good literature is so compelling and timeless in my opinion. It lets the reader take some ownership of the narrative.
As that article points out "elves" is a generic term covering more than one group.
Another consideration that Tolkien didn't seem to comment much on was elven skin color. They're always (or nearly so) portrayed as white skinned, but Tolkien didn't comment on that much either. He described a few elves specifically but not the race in general other than to say, as Sovrath's link above states, they're nearly indistinguishable from humans. It would make sense that they have a variety of skin tones. There's a lot that Tolkien left unsaid unfortunately.
The conclusion from the linked article reads:
"In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. "
But I now understand why I've seen elf illustrations which displayed their ears as looking just like tree leaves.
The whole thing stems from a Tolkien quote where he referred to their ears as "leaf shaped."
As to "indistinguishable from human" I fail to see what that "proves" about their ears considering the large differences in the morphology of humans around the world. I'd say distinctive pointy ears are no different than distinctive eyes or noses in real humans.
Was just about to say that here. That's why I don't really buy the "against pointy ears" reason.
East Asian people have a very distinct look from the distinct look of Scandinavians, etc.
Yet all one race.
So sure, if Elves are related then fine but they can still have pointed ears.
And like Torval said, if he didn't want Elves to have the characteristics of "Elves" he would have called them something completely different.
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That's a great find. I always thought they did because that's how I pictured them. I think if the Professor care enough one way or the other he would have stated so more clearly. He wasn't usually ambiguous about things he considered relevant and as a writer, in addition to a linguist and historian, I think he understood the importance of letting the reader's imagination fill in the details. It's a main reason why good literature is so compelling and timeless in my opinion. It lets the reader take some ownership of the narrative.
As that article points out "elves" is a generic term covering more than one group.
Another consideration that Tolkien didn't seem to comment much on was elven skin color. They're always (or nearly so) portrayed as white skinned, but Tolkien didn't comment on that much either. He described a few elves specifically but not the race in general other than to say, as Sovrath's link above states, they're nearly indistinguishable from humans. It would make sense that they have a variety of skin tones. There's a lot that Tolkien left unsaid unfortunately.
The conclusion from the linked article reads:
"In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. "
But I now understand why I've seen elf illustrations which displayed their ears as looking just like tree leaves.
The whole thing stems from a Tolkien quote where he referred to their ears as "leaf shaped."
As to "indistinguishable from human" I fail to see what that "proves" about their ears considering the large differences in the morphology of humans around the world. I'd say distinctive pointy ears are no different than distinctive eyes or noses in real humans.
The challenge I gave in my earlier post was to find something in one of Tolkien's works published during his lifetime. Tolkien's Letters were not published during his lifetime, nor do I think he would've liked them published. The same can be said for citations from the History of Middle-Earth.
IMO, at best you could say that it's ambiguous, just as others have said. That link provided a pretty decent example of both sides of the argument. I side with the "not pointy" side of the argument, mainly because I think Tolkien would've mentioned something like that had in his descriptions of Elves. But the fact that he tended not to be very specific in his descriptions of things (a good example is when he describes Elrond when Frodo sees him for the first time in Rivendell in FotR, same with Arwen). So, I guess it would be more accurate to say that I *lean* towards the "not pointed" camp, because I agree that this is something that has no definitive answer.
IMO, at best you could say that it's ambiguous, just as others have said. That link provided a pretty decent example of both sides of the argument. I side with the "not pointy" side of the argument, mainly because I think Tolkien would've mentioned something like that had in his descriptions of Elves.
Except he says that hobbit's ears are "elf like".
I mean ... "In his notes on the stem LAS[1] from *lasse = 'leaf' and LAS[2]
'listen' (*lasse = 'ear'), Tolkien noted the possible relationship
between the two in that Elven "ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped"
than human ones."
The Annotated Hobbit, Flies and Spiders (note 6) 1988
My guess is he doesn't go for the "oh and they have pointed ears" because it's obvious. His lamentation with calling them Elves has to do with how other people react when you say the word "elf".
I mean, if this is correct then it answers the question.
In the Etymologies (a linguistic manuscript from ca. 1937-8 published posthumously) is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."[4][5] In another linguistic manuscript (from ca. 1959-60), the Elvish connection between ears and leaves is again noted: "Amon Lhaw. ¶SLAS-, ear. las, leaf. slasū > Q hlaru, S lhaw."[6][7]
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'".[8] Some fans take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement.[2][3][9]
I don't find anything on that page in the "no they don't" argument to support anything and it seems reaching. If one wants to go with the idea that Elf ears are "leaf like" then that also works but it seems ridiculous for people to have his words and say "well, but who knows ...".
And so what if this comes from his notes. That's the bones of the work.
I mean "only slightly pointed and elvish" says a lot. Doesn't say "only slightly pointed but human or only slightly pointed but dwarven".
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As has been suggested, online RPG games in general were inspired by D&D, which was itself inspired by LotR. I expect that the earliest MMOPRGs went this route in an effort to appeal to those attracted to early paper and pencil RPGs, as in the beginning they would have been the most likely audience to be drawn as early adopters to what was then a new and unproven game genre.
I'm not 100% sure if D&D was the first game ever to have concepts like "levels" and "classes" but we know it had them before video games even existed.
At this point those are terms so ingrained into RPG culture that there are those confused enough to think these features are what make a game an RPG. So yeah it's fairly safe to say D&D is the father of modern MMORPGs, and most other RPGs as well.
> They Have Desirable Traits: They often are portrayed as beautiful and fair. Even the Dark Elf Variants. Any Good DM/GM, however, can and WILL use this against them. Some people will say only insecure sociopaths, people who are't happy with their own self worth, or the excessively vain are concerned about this. I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think there needs to be a reason to want to play an attractive character. Unless your DM is an ass like me who can use it against you.
> They often live for a very long time or don't expire at all. As humans who grown and age and learn of our own mortality through life, Immortality has always been that long desired and sought after holy grail. Imagine being able to experience all the pleasures of life without ever having a Mid-Life crisis. Again, this too, can be used against players. Eg. Dorian Gray complex. Life could become boring and callous.
That sounds like a lot of reaching just for the sake of it... I think you'll be very hard pressed to find someone who goes "Oh, a pretty person. Must be a sociopath." Now a narcissist, that'd be a much easier tag to label them with from a judgmental person's perspective. If anything, jealousy/envy would make for a much bigger obstacle in their dealings IMO.
Also, high Charisma tends to make life easier in a lot of cases. There's a good reason "pretty" people can often skate by on their looks alone. Their looks CAN and WILL open a lot of doors. Ruining that completely and focusing entirely on "How can I fuck my players over for playing high charisma characters?" sounds like very poor DM'ing to me. Unless it's intended as the occasional curveball of course, and not a constant.
Also, Dorian Grey is a very bad example. He was human from the start. With a human mind. A fact that didn't change when he became immortal. The same rules don't apply to dragons, demons, gods, elves and other "natural" immortals nearly as much as they to some upstart mortal that cheated his way into eternal life. Their minds are very alien compared to a human's. Those little things aside, I think you've pretty much nailed the reasons as to why they are so popular. It's also the reason vampires tend to be popular as well. Though they don't lend themselves to being a player character race nearly as well.
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I'm not 100% sure if D&D was the first game ever to have concepts like "levels" and "classes" but we know it had them before video games even existed.
At this point those are terms so ingrained into RPG culture that there are those confused enough to think these features are what make a game an RPG. So yeah it's fairly safe to say D&D is the father of modern MMORPGs, and most other RPGs as well.
You're right here, and in the video game community, it's EQ which made a lot of people think that the only way to make a MMORPG is a grind to some endgame.
Acually in terms of origins - this is not correct
MMORPGs were firmly rooted in MUDs - like DikuMUD was the foundation of EQ1 - UO the other early MMORPG was also based on MUD design. All the original developers of 1st generation MMORPGs were MUD players.
Except DikuMud was specifically created to be more like DnD than it's predecessor AberMud was. Again from Wikipedia,
"The making of DikuMUD was first announced on Usenet by Hans Henrik Stærfeldt March 27, 1990. At the time Tom Madsen, Sebastian Hammer, and Stærfeldt were the only developers, joined by Michael Seifert in June 1990. Stærfeldt stated that their intention was to create a MUD that was less messy than AberMUD, less buggy than LPMud, and more like Dungeons & Dragons.[6]"
Raph Koster has written an origins of MMORPGs paper which confirms similar.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not 100% sure if D&D was the first game ever to have concepts like "levels" and "classes" but we know it had them before video games even existed.
At this point those are terms so ingrained into RPG culture that there are those confused enough to think these features are what make a game an RPG. So yeah it's fairly safe to say D&D is the father of modern MMORPGs, and most other RPGs as well.
You're right here, and in the video game community, it's EQ which made a lot of people think that the only way to make a MMORPG is a grind to some endgame.
Acually in terms of origins - this is not correct
MMORPGs were firmly rooted in MUDs - like DikuMUD was the foundation of EQ1 - UO the other early MMORPG was also based on MUD design. All the original developers of 1st generation MMORPGs were MUD players.
Considering how different UO and EQ are, they definitely don't come from the same kind of MUDs. EQ being inspired by DikuMUD is common knowledge, but UO didn't have an "endgame" per se, there were no raids to grind for gear, unlike EQ.
So I repeat: it's EQ who made many people think (and still think TODAY) that the only way to make a MMORPG is a level grind with and endgame consisting in a gear/raid grind. EQ made those people think all MMORPGs should be inspired by DikuMUD.
True story, apparently the UO team drew inspiration from other sources. Again from Wikipedia: " Delashmit, Scott Phillips and, a bit laterRaph Koster, who became the lead designer. Koster wrote public "designer letters" and usually went by his nickname of Designer Dragon. Koster drew inspiration from prior online games,[20] such as DartMUD.[21]"
While not level based, grinding for progression (skills or levels) was and still is a cornerstone feature of most MMORPGs past and present.
CCP introduced one of the few MMORPGS to unite progression from grinding which I enjoy but many don't.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
What I normally see in MMORPGs are Humans trying to break out and explore and they tend to meet the elves. I hardly see people in a major story playing from an Elven point of view.
Remember, most games we pick our character and now everyone starts together. Truth is that the story is usually thought of from the point of view of a human being. In games like Lineage 2 and Guild Wars 2, the player started in their racial hometown and were able to take start quests to see the world from their racial point of view for a limited time.
Most of the time humans are the protagonists and they take it upon themselves to meet and unify the races to fight some large evil. Even when the player picks to be a member of a different race, they still go from the point of view of what a human would think and act.
At least Guild Wars 2 made it so that Humans were not so superior. The other races had their own territory along with their own history and power level. It wasn't a world were 50%+ were human beings and every other race was minor...at least in its current standing.
I see Elf Fantasies became more popular with people trying to cash in on Lord of the Rings... I mean they even put Legolas in The Hobbit movies... Don't think he was in the book. Look at "HISHE (How it should have ended)" for the Hobbit movies. Those are pretty funny.
Just an example:
I can pick out to be a Female Cyclops (with a racial story as the mortal enemy of humans) and when I start the game, I will be in the first town with an NPC saying "Oh them cyclops are ready to raid us, but we are protected within a field" and before you know it...
I am some renegade cyclops destroying my own kind in the middle of a flower field. Not exactly what I signed on for.....
WoW you have your Tauran, Pandaran and Worgen.
Crowfall you have your Elken, Minotaur, and Geunican.
SWTOR has it's Cathar.
You have the Maharim in Darkfall.
The Charr in GW2.
Firran in ArcheAge.
Animal type races are one of the most common cliches in MMOs.
There was one book I read that I can not for the life of me remember the name, it had floating ships and realms with pirate like mean elves in it.
When I think about Elves in retrospect they are really nothing like me other than that. For instance, they live at one with nature and are a bit haughty. I guess I am a little bit haughty, but overall I associate myself more with the bottom tear of society rather than the top tier. I can enjoy lewd humor for instance. I guess it depends on the depiction of the Elves. In the Hobbit cartoon, the High Elves were depicted as drinking and making silly jokes. The Wood Elves were similar and had a much different depiction in terms of how they looked.
I think I most closely relate to humans in stories and how they are depicted. I guess that makes sense as I am one.
I always like dwarves in stories, but I never want to play as one. I think they are more like the comic relief in most cases sadly. I was watching a show recently on Amazon called Journey Quest I believe. In season 3 there was a female dwarf who was somewhat portrayed as both sexy and funny. I guess in the end she still ended up as the comic relief while the skinny and pretty elf ends up as one of the main characters and a love interest.
Speaking of which that is something that really bothers me in today's shows. I always enjoyed playing the roguish, arrogant, and skinny male swashbuckler types. In today's shows women take over pretty much all those roles, but IMO they aren't nearly as fun in them. They should have women playing as warriors and other types instead. Many men are naturally rogueish and do a better job in that regard.
Tolkien elves inspired D&D elves who inspired WoW elves. That much is true. But Santa/Keebler elves are kind of their own separate offshoot.
Norse Mythology Elves > Tolkien Elves > D&D Elves > WoW Elves
That's the true progression. Other forms of elves are more like a cousin species. Like say a chimpanzee to humans. We aren't descended from them, they just split off from our ancestors at a certain point.
Norse elves were said to be beautiful, and could even be what some Vikings became after death. Also, ironically, I don't think pointy ears were a thing (Could be wrong on that one.)
So while elves are one of my least favorite fantasy races, their origins are actually a lot cooler than the androgynous twigs they have become. And as much as I hate WoW, it's actually a lot truer to the origins than most depictions.
Also, unlike the picture would suggest, Tolkien elves were tall. D&D elves are short. So that height progression is way off.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Players like to identify with their avatars. That means humanoids are in, dinosaurs etc are out. A minority of players don't mind playing "aliens", but and I will say this only once, MMOs are made for the largest common denominator. Bring that back to mind every time you wonder why something is not to your liking in a MMO.
This is why Elves are so popular, they look very human, more human than Orcs. So why not Hobbits you say? They look like little people? Players don't want to play short, usually stout avatars. Yes a minority do, but see the last paragraph.
So other races tend to be quite human like and often exaggerate features that we want to have. Tallness, musculature, facial symmetry etc.
Why medieval? The genre of fantasy is mostly like that and led MMOs to do the same. And what you immediately can get a handle on is what gaming companies want to produce. Science Fiction is harder because the setting is not as immediately familiar. Of course if you do Star Trek you don't have that problem so much, but you do know there are people who have not watched Star Trek right? We don't want to put them off so lets do another swords and sorcerer MMO with humans and elves.
It kills creativity but then gaming and MMOs have had other higher priorities than that for many years now. Creativity is only allowed inside the envelope of what sells. The days of doing something creative and relying on that to create an audience for game are rarely found outside of indie. And indie is not exactly immune to the problem.
Loved this, but just to say D&D Elves are smaller than Tolkien Elves, but other rpg's soon rectified that "mistake" and made them as tall or taller.
Alright, History Lesson, time.
The Elves (Aelfr), the Dokkalfar and Ljosalfar (Dark Elves and Light Elves respectively) are derived from Norse Mythology. They were effectively Demi-Gods with Radiant Beauty and Everlasting Life.
Around the same time, there was another Culture with a similar Mythology.
In Irish/ScottishGaelic Mythology, there too, was a race of Radiant, beautiful, Opal Colored Demi-God or Olympian-like Gods that were called the Tuatha De Dannan, (Pronounced Tu-aH-ha dAY Dahnnun. I'm looking at you, Mark Jacobs and Curt Shilling. Not TuaTHA. ) Or the Aos Si which were, for simplicity, The Fey, Faeries, or sometimes commonly called 'The Fair Folk.'
They did have their differences in their portrayals. I believe there was more written lore on the Fair Folk, though.
When J.R.R Tolkien created the stereotypical 'Tolkein Elf' he used his Cultural and historical know-how and badassery to blend parts of both the Aos Si and the Ljosalfar. And it was a huge success for generations to come.
He created a deep, rich lore about proud, beautiful, noble, beings of epic proportion on their way out to make room for the more adaptable species of Man. A poetic and Tragic tale that has since been beaten into the ground a billion times.
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From a gaming and roleplaying and even MMO standpoint, they have a number of things going for them.
> They Have Desirable Traits: They often are portrayed as beautiful and fair. Even the Dark Elf Variants. Any Good DM/GM, however, can and WILL use this against them. Some people will say only insecure sociopaths, people who are't happy with their own self worth, or the excessively vain are concerned about this. I don't think that's the case at all. I don't think there needs to be a reason to want to play an attractive character. Unless your DM is an ass like me who can use it against you.
> They often live for a very long time or don't expire at all. As humans who grown and age and learn of our own mortality through life, Immortality has always been that long desired and sought after holy grail. Imagine being able to experience all the pleasures of life without ever having a Mid-Life crisis. Again, this too, can be used against players. Eg. Dorian Gray complex. Life could become boring and callous.
> They're human-like enough to be easy to role-play.
> They have beneficial traits that open up opportunities. Elves are often portrayed as being graceful, nimble, swift and agile with a heightened awareness or wisdom and attunement to life and magical arts. This allows them to fill just about any role.
> As fighting types: Instead of relying on brute strength and raging temper tantrums to win their battles such as barbarians or battleragers, They outskill their opponents with greater agility and a keen mind, and supplementing their martial prowess with inherent magical ability. The martial types are usually shown as having an almost Samurai level of discipline to them. Except they can train with a sword for 100 years instead of just 10. Which, provides more Roleplay Food.
> As magical types, with their increased or inherent magical capabilities, they often excel at these roles or have an advantage (Which gives them versatility or Potency)
So there really isn't a role they can't fulfill in some manner or another. Anything they can't brute their way through, they can generally think their way through.
This creates a lot of appeal, honestly. A character who can study an art for hundreds of years, reaching the pinnacle of a discipline that a human generally can't reach before expiring naturally. A character that can experience several generations and lifetimes of other beings. A character that pretty much has their limiter broken by some means, provided there's enough time.
I play all sorts of races in RPGs, but have always liked elves the most, honestly. Probably because I liked them when I was a little kid reading Lord of the Rings and getting in to D&D going "Oh Man! I can make an Elf who is a sword master who studied for 100 years and is like a super ninja samurai and he swings 2 swords at once because he's that awesome." I had his whole backstory planned out and a roadmap laid out for him.
That character never made it past level 4.
I think for me, now a days, is that I like a character that can maintain control and control the fight. And I have found Elves best at that because they can specialize or be very versatile. I've also always favored grace, finesse, cunning and tactics over brute force.
Alright, maybe some it is still being a fanboy haha.
That said, elf or high fantasy is just better than anything else out there imo, even despite being what some might call overplayed lately. I for one hate when it is polluted with modern technology/steampunk crap. Especially Steampunk crap. That should be an entirely different genre imo.
Tolkien restored Elves to what they had been previously.
As an aside: I challenge anyone to find anything, anywhere in any work of Tolkien published during Tolkien's lifetime, where he describes Elves (or Hobbits) as having pointed ears. You certainly won't find anything in the Hobbit or LotR.
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"In the final analysis there is no definitive evidence either way on this issue. A strong case can be made for either viewpoint by leaving out the opposing arguments, but when viewed as a whole the matter is ambiguous. The lack of any reference to elven ears in 'canonical' writings ultimately makes a decisive answer impossible. "
But I now understand why I've seen elf illustrations which displayed their ears as looking just like tree leaves.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As to "indistinguishable from human" I fail to see what that "proves" about their ears considering the large differences in the morphology of humans around the world. I'd say distinctive pointy ears are no different than distinctive eyes or noses in real humans.
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East Asian people have a very distinct look from the distinct look of Scandinavians, etc.
Yet all one race.
So sure, if Elves are related then fine but they can still have pointed ears.
And like Torval said, if he didn't want Elves to have the characteristics of "Elves" he would have called them something completely different.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
IMO, at best you could say that it's ambiguous, just as others have said. That link provided a pretty decent example of both sides of the argument. I side with the "not pointy" side of the argument, mainly because I think Tolkien would've mentioned something like that had in his descriptions of Elves. But the fact that he tended not to be very specific in his descriptions of things (a good example is when he describes Elrond when Frodo sees him for the first time in Rivendell in FotR, same with Arwen). So, I guess it would be more accurate to say that I *lean* towards the "not pointed" camp, because I agree that this is something that has no definitive answer.
I mean ... "In his notes on the stem LAS[1] from *lasse = 'leaf' and LAS[2] 'listen' (*lasse = 'ear'), Tolkien noted the possible relationship between the two in that Elven "ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped" than human ones."
The Annotated Hobbit, Flies and Spiders (note 6) 1988
My guess is he doesn't go for the "oh and they have pointed ears" because it's obvious. His lamentation with calling them Elves has to do with how other people react when you say the word "elf".
I mean, if this is correct then it answers the question.
In the Etymologies (a linguistic manuscript from ca. 1937-8 published posthumously) is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."[4][5] In another linguistic manuscript (from ca. 1959-60), the Elvish connection between ears and leaves is again noted: "Amon Lhaw. ¶SLAS-, ear. las, leaf. slasū > Q hlaru, S lhaw."[6][7]
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'".[8] Some fans take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement.[2][3][9]
I don't find anything on that page in the "no they don't" argument to support anything and it seems reaching. If one wants to go with the idea that Elf ears are "leaf like" then that also works but it seems ridiculous for people to have his words and say "well, but who knows ...".
And so what if this comes from his notes. That's the bones of the work.
I mean "only slightly pointed and elvish" says a lot. Doesn't say "only slightly pointed but human or only slightly pointed but dwarven".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
At this point those are terms so ingrained into RPG culture that there are those confused enough to think these features are what make a game an RPG. So yeah it's fairly safe to say D&D is the father of modern MMORPGs, and most other RPGs as well.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Also, high Charisma tends to make life easier in a lot of cases. There's a good reason "pretty" people can often skate by on their looks alone. Their looks CAN and WILL open a lot of doors. Ruining that completely and focusing entirely on "How can I fuck my players over for playing high charisma characters?" sounds like very poor DM'ing to me. Unless it's intended as the occasional curveball of course, and not a constant.
Also, Dorian Grey is a very bad example. He was human from the start. With a human mind. A fact that didn't change when he became immortal. The same rules don't apply to dragons, demons, gods, elves and other "natural" immortals nearly as much as they to some upstart mortal that cheated his way into eternal life. Their minds are very alien compared to a human's. Those little things aside, I think you've pretty much nailed the reasons as to why they are so popular. It's also the reason vampires tend to be popular as well. Though they don't lend themselves to being a player character race nearly as well.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
"The making of DikuMUD was first announced on Usenet by Hans Henrik Stærfeldt March 27, 1990. At the time Tom Madsen, Sebastian Hammer, and Stærfeldt were the only developers, joined by Michael Seifert in June 1990. Stærfeldt stated that their intention was to create a MUD that was less messy than AberMUD, less buggy than LPMud, and more like Dungeons & Dragons.[6]"
Raph Koster has written an origins of MMORPGs paper which confirms similar.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
" Delashmit, Scott Phillips and, a bit laterRaph Koster, who became the lead designer. Koster wrote public "designer letters" and usually went by his nickname of Designer Dragon. Koster drew inspiration from prior online games,[20] such as DartMUD.[21]"
While not level based, grinding for progression (skills or levels) was and still is a cornerstone feature of most MMORPGs past and present.
CCP introduced one of the few MMORPGS to unite progression from grinding which I enjoy but many don't.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon